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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:09 PM
Original message
Why are Neocons considered rightwingers?
As a ex-Republican, having recently severed my ties with the neocon controlled party, I've been forced to do a lot of soul-searching about what ideologies I truly espouse. I'm a responsible conservative thinker when it comes to politics, but the Republican party is controlled by neocons, with who's policies I greatly disagree.

Part of my self-analysis has been to take a strong look at the political spectrum and to try to make heads or tails of it.

http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/polsp.html

I was thinking yesterday, that the linear political spectrum doesn't really tell the whole story. To the left, you supposedly have those who espouse increasing Governement interference (more liberal) and to the right, less governement (more conservative).

This spectrum doesn't show the extreme ends, but contrary to popular opinions, and certainly I expect to be harangued for this, I consider totalitarians/authoritarians/dictators to be on the extreme left end of the spectrum. It only makes sense that the more we place power in the hands of the governement, the closer we come to these types of societies.

By the same token, anarchism seems to be on the extreme right.

These are merely my opinions and are certainly not in keeping with traditional analysis. And there are many ways to look this, I know.

Anyway, using this logic, I came to the realization that neocons might very well be considered leftists. Here's why:

Neocons advocate vigorous government interference in the areas of traditional morality (Chistian fundamentalism), pro-business policies, and foreign affairs. By definition, neocons are neither neo, nor conservative.

In fact, no ideology that advocates vigorous governement can be considered conservative. It can, however, be considered: authoritarian, totalitarian, Fascist, or Nazi-like.

I welcome your responses.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. You've redefined conservative.
Plenty of conservatives want increased governmental power. That's why religious conservatives want abortion banned, gay marriage outlawed, gay sex made illegal, etc. They're not neocons - they just want the power of the government enforcing their moral preferences.

Totalitarianism can be reached at either end of the spectrum.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. The definition of "conservativism":
is a disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change


True Conservatives want "conservative government". Less is more. People should have strong morals and be able to guide themselves. Government should only intercede when absolutely necessary.

I reject the notion that anyone who advocates "vigorous government" in any way, is conservative.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Social stability for who?
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 01:08 PM by The Backlash Cometh
Unfortunately, the traditional status quo relies on certain practices which benefit those who are already well-off, but is a destablizing force for those who need stability the most.

Another point, I agree that Republicans do want to keep government power localized. But it's not because they want to rule with strong morals. It's to protect their fiefdoms.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
65. You need to look up the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
Then come back and re-state the above.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #65
73. Yes, I see you're point.
But just because a label has a commonly accepted meaning, does not make it accurate. Rightwingers commonly refer to liberals and moderate Democrats as Socialists and Communists all the time, but I'm sure you'd agree that is erroneous.

In fact, after the negative connotations generated by movements of the 1960's, leftists have been trying to get away from the word "liberal" prefering instead the word "progressive". Is there any difference between a liberal and a progressive? I don't really think there is. But I do believe there's a huge difference between a conservative and a neocon.

The "no true scotsman" argument is just a convenient way to dismiss the obvious, that being there is nothing politically conservative about neocons.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. The negative connotations of the word "liberal"
were created by the Republicans of the 70s and 80s. They successfully demonized the word, and so Democrats began to shy away from it. It's a sad sign of capitulation from the Democrats, but I'd hardly say they are backing away from it because of the social movements of the 60s. Fighting to enforce civil rights and equality for blacks, women, and minorities is certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

What counts most today is that neo-cons call themselves conservative, and many people who consider themselves conservative are willingly buying in to the neo-con philosophy.

At any rate, I don't think it's possible to fully sever neo-cons from conservatives. They share a strong dislike of social government spending, for one. Neo-cons replace that with crony capitalism and massive defense spending (although it should be noted that many conservatives buy into that as well).
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. You make some good points.
Edited on Thu Jul-22-04 09:00 AM by RUSTY SHACKLEFORD
For the record, when I referred to the social movements of the 1960s, I certainly was not referring to the noteworthy advancements made by the left in the areas of racial and gender equality.

I was thinking more of the bitter anti-war protests, pot-smoking hippies, and free love communalism. It was through those negative movements that the right was successfully able to demonize the word "liberal" and attach socialism and communism to leftist movements. It is a shame that politics come to such, and I have a healthy disdain for it myself.

But I see the same demonization going on today with the word "conservative", and being a conservative minded thinker, I'm at a loss. What would you call someone who holds a position that Government intervention should be minimal in people's lives? That the only reason to have a strong defense is to protect one's own borders, not to invade foreign countries without provocation? That capitalism is a good system, but should not go unchecked? That wishes people would not use abortion as a method of birth control for irresponsible sex? That wants his children to grow up in a drug free school and healthy environment?

Does anyone truly hold those positions to be evil? I can't fathom how one could. But it is through the radical and highly un-conservative political actions of these Neanderthal neocons that the position of sensible, responsible conservatives becomes demonized.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. I don't think anyone holds those positions to be "evil."
Where things break down is how we define "minimal" government intervention, or what we consider to be reasonable "checks" on capitalism and corporate power, or judging people for having "irresponsible" sex, or what constitutes a "healthy environment."

See what I'm saying? You're basically diluting down conservatism into tiny nice-sounding soundbites which appeal to everyone.
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PeeWeeTheMadman Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #79
91. Different defintions of conservative
If you look at Europa, conservatives are really not and have never been "anti state". Sure, they are less pro government than the social democrats, but they have also been important proponents for government intervention in the economy. if you look at East Asia, those conservatives have also been pro government intervention in the economy, even if they are not pro-welfare state.

I think that it`s better to call what americans call conservaties for "classical liberals" or better still libertarians. The best thing about libertarian is that there is no doubt what it means, as the anarchists have abandoned the term completely.
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69KV Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
105. Y'know what's strange?
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 10:47 AM by 69KV
a disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change


All of the above are my positions exactly. And I'm a liberal.

social stability - through a safety net, reasonable regulations to keep corporate power in check, the government staying out of my bedroom and out of foreign policy quagmires, and reasonable restrictions on trade...

established institutions - such as unions, Social Security, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Clean Air Act, the EPA, new deal and great society programs, minimum wage laws...all of which gave us a middle class in this country, and without which the middle class will disappear...

preferring gradual development to abrupt social change/tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change - globalization should never have been allowed to abruptly happen, like it did because of NAFTA and GATT. We should have made it a slow, gradual process by keeping regulations in place. The Newt Gingrich Republicans and the Bush Regime should never have been allowed to force abrupt social change like they have, with their attacks on established institutions. They should never be allowed to make the abrupt social change they want, which would take us back to the robber baron era and usher in a new Great Depression...

What's a conservative anymore?
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, many of their pro-business ideologies
are extremely Laissez Faire - one could view that as being nearly equivalent to anarchy for business and that would be a right wing aspect of their ideology using your guidelines.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. they are not the classic definition of "laissez Faire"
They are pro-monopoly and anti-competetive.

Call me a moderate, but I think the game of capitalism needs referees to keep competition high.

The new GOP thinks that the Big Boys need all the help they can get keeping unfair monopolies as powerful as possible.

How is this an "old fashioined" Republican value?

I think we have become the new conservatives.
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. I always thought of Laissez Faire to refer
to an ABSOLUTE free enterprise system menaing no interference from the government...obviously this is bad as anything this anarchical is - and it is also what b*sh wants.

Yes I may agree - maybe we are the new conservatives to some extent if you go stirctly by the definition of conservatism.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
59. Well, that type of "free market" is a fantasy in all but a few parts
of the economy.

It works, for instance, in the stock market, pure supply and demand. Also commodities.

But probably 90% of the economy needs governmental refereeing to keep it from becoming oligopol or monopolistic.

A pure "free enterprise" system does NOT lead to more competition, it leads to one or two BIG BOYS swallowing everything else up, then dictating the terms to the customer.

It's actually ANTI-competetive.

The republicans don't want you to know this. :eyes: Even though it's basic Econ 101
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. You are right, and this is why Laissez Faire is so dangerous.
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Claire Beth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Welcome to DU!!!..........
and congratulations on your leaving the Republican party...I was a republican at one time but I have seen the light. :kick:

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Welcome to DU. *wave* Try taking the
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 12:19 PM by GreenPartyVoter
quizzes on my page and see where you land. :) How do they stack up to the analysis system you have developed?

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/libvsconserv.htm
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Try this:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

It is a slightly-less oversimplified way to analyse political ideology.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Republicans have been tricked by the neocons and have yet to figure it out
The GOPers who CONTINUE to support Bushco are a bunch of bozos who wouldn't know the difference between Mussolini and the Dalai Lama.

The GOP party has been hijacked by the neocons and thank god there are a few such as yourself who have figured it out.

Yes, the neocons are fascists and support BIG government and BIG government control.

The Democrats who have wised up, such as ourselves, have become the new conservatives.

We want less government interference in our lives, and we want things BACK THE WAY THEY USED TO BE.

Or the way they're supposed to be. The way the constitution actually spells out how this country is SUPPOSED to work.

Liberal ideas like a free press and to have our votes counted and stuff like that.

:eyes:

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TA Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. The GOP is starting to realize what the neocons have done to them
You are spot on in your statement that the GOP was "hijacked" by the neocons. 9/11 made it all possible for the neocons, who Bush (Cheney), picked for positions inside the Pentagon to begin their push for imperialism and much more. Ten days into Bush's term Wolfowitz had maps of Iraq spread out detailing the neocon plans for war. But they needed a "Pearl Harbor" and 9/11 made it all possible for the hijacking. Now the GOP is realizing what a fuck-up the Iraq war was and the infighting has begun. There's a great article in the July copy of The American Prospect about the GOP/neocon feud. You can read a short lead to the article at www.prospect.com but for the full article you need a subscription. Also on an earlier post I suggest this site www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/index.html for those of you who would like to learn more about the neocons, the neocon movement and there goals.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. Rightwingers are unknowingly empowering
the neoconservative movement. Rightwingers are emotional jingoistic people who like or easily follow calls to war, especially when misled that it is a war against terrorists and "infidel" Muslims instead of a war for global US hegemony through military force.
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Government interference..."
Liberals don't look at is as interference. Read here:

http://tvnewslies.org/html/day_in_the_life_of_joe_middle-.html

(posted earlier today by someone at DU)
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Who gave you your definitions????
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 12:40 PM by aquart
"I was thinking yesterday, that the linear political spectrum doesn't really tell the whole story. To the left, you supposedly have those who espouse increasing Governement interference (more liberal) and to the right, less governement (more conservative)."

What is "more government"??? You really need to sit down and ask yourself what you NEED a government to do.

I NEED my government to assure affordable excellent healthcare.
To ensure that my food, water, air, land, transportation, and anything else I use in my daily life are SAFE. There is no way on earth I can do that myself.

If keeping me safe means a strong, ready, well-equipped military, I WANT that, hoping it's never used. I want well-equipped police and firemen, too. And sufficient garbage collectors.

I want teachers who can read and write standard English.

Do you know what I DON'T want? I don't want my government to create a landed class of inherited untaxed wealth. I don't want all the best jobs to go to the scions of these families. That's how we got George. George never worked for anything and he spends our money like it's water. Bill Clinton had to work for everything and he kept our money safe and didn't spend a dime we didn't need.

"Big government" is a meaningless term. It's a propaganda phrase. If government is doing it's job, it's not too big. If it isn't, size doesn't matter. Just like penises. Right now, the United States government is NOT doing its job. It's huge and worthless. If you cut half the employees, two-thirds the employees, and the departments, and the budget....under George Bush it would simply become small and worthless.

What do you need your government to do? How do you plan to pay for it?

Republicans like to chant "tax and spend" when deploring Democratic policies. What does "tax and spend" mean? PAY AS YOU GO. It means not kiting the check. It means not passing the buck by passing the debt to the next generation. It means FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Too many people vote Republican because they believe in something for nothing. Just like their famous "welfare queens."



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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Agreed.
"I NEED my government to assure affordable excellent healthcare.
To ensure that my food, water, air, land, transportation, and anything else I use in my daily life are SAFE. There is no way on earth I can do that myself."

I believe if the people who ran the healthcare "industries", namely insurance providers, were morally sound people, then doctor bills wouldn't be so high. And if doctors were morally sound people, they'd be able to provide quality healthcare to you and I at reasonable rates.

Food, water, air, etc. would all be taken care of if people were not motivated by greed and irresponsiblity.

Government should intercede in these affairs to the minimal extent necessary to ensure the citizenry is not taken advantage of or that we make ourselves extinct.

Call me a Utopianist if you like...
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. But they are't and it won't be
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 02:18 PM by info being
A philosophy based on how things "should" be isn't sound because it doesn't account for the fact that things "aren't" that way. No offense, but is a need to see things in black and white that makes people want to look at the world this way.

I'm proud to call my self a "Progressive" because I like to look at the world the way it *is* and support policies that help real people in the real world. In short, because I'm a realist.
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lulu Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #37
76. George W. is living proof of this. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Just testing my new signature....
Testing, 1, 2, 3...
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Retest....
Testing, 1, 2, 3...
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Man that doesn't surprise me a bit.
It makes sense. Try searching the internet for "what is a neocon" and see all the ridiculous, inane, absurd stuff you find. There's no clear understanding; the disinformation is prevalent. The spooks (or someone else?) has been hard at work obfuscating........
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TA Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Correct, they were behind "Scoop" Jackson D-WA
when he was running for the presidential nomination in the 70's. They later moved to the Republican party in support of Reagan and have been there since.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
60. Like what you said
I think the Libertarians and others such as unhappy dems, greens, etc. need to come together to get rid of the neocons. The neocons are in BOTH major parties, they were just allowed to ascend to power under the current administration.
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. Can you fill the ignorant among us (namely me) in on
who Scoop Jackson is?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. Neocons are a Frankenstein's monster of ideologies, combining
the worst aspect of the far left with the far right, creating willfully blind ideologues who care nothing about reality and only about using the machinery of state to achieve their regressive social policies at home and the furtherance of empire abroad.
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Excellent comment!
Well said.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Thanks, and
welcome to DU!

:toast:
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. Your post is welcome and shows that you are thinking
But consider some places where you are semantically loading your terms to the point of inaccuracy...

For example 'government interference' might include such things as having FERC stop Enron from gang raping Aunt Millie. In this case, the government should have interfered in exactly the same way the cops should interfere with a bank robbery.

I do not agree with your assesment about totalitarians being on the left. Totalitarianism exists on the left and the right, and is a paradigm, more than a philosophy. Read Hannah Arendt's 'Origins of Totalitarianism' for a rather scary assessment of the rise of Totalitarianism from origins in proto pan-nationalism to a system that needed no philosophic stance to thrive.

The right tends to be more authoritarian and individualistic, the left more social and tolerant, but as you say, the circumstances may make this a flexible thing. I personally equate modern conservatism with the goals of Manchester Liberalism, that is, the protection of property and the protection of commerce.

Social conservatism is not really a part of the paleoconservative mindset. But here is where I can support your core assertion that Neo conservatism is neither. Conservative would never advocate pre-emptive war, as not only would it endanger American's business and property, but the rights of property owners in other nations as well.
And there is nothing new about Imperialism, nor its close alliance with monopolists.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Excellent post
and a reminder of how poorly conceived the neocons agenda is.

War is bad not only for humanity (if that wasn't enough), but also for capitalism.

Which is why I think focusing on Halliburton's profiteering can somewhat misdirect us away from the real danger of this junta--they are true-believing ideologues. True believers are the most dangerous people to have in power. The corrupt and cynical one can bargain with--the pure ideologue cannot be stopped or reasoned with.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks to all.
You guys are great! I am truly enjoying reading many of your well thought-out responses. I promise to read and consider them all.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. Now THAT is something I wish more people did
So often, I get the sense here that nobody bothers to read responses. Its good to know that there are people as thoughtful as you on this board.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. neocons are NOT fundamentalist Christians.
A conservative is someone who believes the government can't fix anything so should be limited to basic needs. Extreme conservatives believe the only role gov't should play is defense.

To liberals, the conservative view creates a vaccum which large corporations fill. Unchecked, big business is just as likely to take away our "rights" as a totalitarin government. Power in the hands of business is fascism by definition. Fascism doesn't put power in the hands of the government, it puts it in the hands of business.

Liberals believe that government can play a role by providing a safety net and trying to level the playing field so we don't become a two tier society. Each time the government acts however we must decide if rights will be taken away and if so does that outweigh the greater good. (confiscating land to build roads, compulsory eduction, workers' comp and workplace safety rules as examples.)

Republicans couch the argument in terms of government taking away rights. It could be said that that position is 180 degrees off and that liberals are the protectors of individual liberties (to breathe fresh air, drink clean water, to deposit our money in banks that won't rip us off etc.) Roe v Wade is the classic example of that discussion: which rights get protection? Does a mother have some rights which trump the rights of the embryo? Liberals say "stay out of my personal life". The classic conservative would say the same thing but the GOP, as a minority party after FDR, decided to win election it had to bed down with fundamentalists. Hence you get this totally wierd philosophy that says government should stay out of business and religion AND the government's proper role is to enforce the will of business and religion on individuals. (anti homosexual, anti abortion, in favor of state sponsored religious activities,...hardly a position that favors individual rights!)

Neocons are NOT fundamentalist Christians. Some individuals may be but they do not share the same philosophy re: morals. (Note Brooks' position in favor of gay marriage which was the same as Cheney's was in 2000.) Neocons are "neo" because they used to be democrats who went so far left they came around and hit the other end of the right. They believe in invading other countires to enforce our will. (They would say "our will" is to provide freedom but that is a stretch and the only touching stone they have with the left.) I'm guessing it is just as difficult for the neocons to have to go along with the fundamentalist agenda as it is for me to accept this war which so many in my party voted "for".

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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. Fundamentalist Christians are Neocon apologists...not Neocons
Just like they place faith in Pastors who are sexually abusing their children, they put faith in a government that is raping the world. They get fooled because they rely on faith, not critical thought.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. The conservative business elite have always used the power of government
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 01:21 PM by el_gato
to their advantage, primarily in the realm of U.S. foreign policy.
They have repeatedly over the history of the United States utilized
the power of governmental force to achieve their business interests.
Take a look at the history of the United Fruit Company in Latin America.
You can read about it in Gen. Smedley Butler's writings as well
as in other places.

Another good example of the power of government to entrench the
interest of big business at our expense is in the DMCA which was
part of Newt Gingrich's republican revolution.

Big business and republican governance are hand in hand and the
power of government has always been used by them to ward off any
potential competition.

The problem with so many rank and file republicans is they never
see what is going on behind the scenes because they never look
past the rhetoric. Thus they continue to believe in the myth that
being a republican stands for being a rugged individualist meanwhile
the politicians they are following have spent their entire lives
feeding at the public trough. Look at how long the bush family
has been sitting at the table.



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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I think there'a difference...
between a conservative and a capitalist. I think we're talking apples and oranges.

I believe in capitalism all day long. I do not believe corporations should get any tax breaks nor have any more say in government than individuals do.

I believe what you (and some other's here) are talking about is "crony capitalism" and not true conservativism.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Sadly the "true conservatives" are out in the lurch

I have repect for the idea of limited government involvement in
our personal lives and I don't think we need to have people
who can work on welfare.

Nonetheless, the people who control the republican party
are as you say "crony capitalists"

There are some old-school conservatives out there like
Ron Paul, but he is a rare bird and the republican
leadership has him locked out of the decision making
process.

It is no accident that the size and power of the federal
government has grown under Bush.

By any legitimate definition of conservative the republican
party is everything but conservative.

The truth is that the real dichotomy is between those who
serve the interest of the corporate fascists and those who
don't and they come from both parties.


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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Exactly!
The truth is that the real dichotomy is between those who
serve the interest of the corporate fascists and those who
don't and they come from both parties.


Well said!
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Hear hear!!
Well stated. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I wish people could put their differences aside long enough to put a People's Party together and usurp the Republicrats that have this country in their jowls and are slinging it about by the scruff of it's neck.........
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. limited government involvement in *personal* lives, is a left wing thing
It's usually not the democrats who propose things like anti-sodomy, anti-mariuana, anti-choice, anti-gay marriage legislation. If that isn't interfering with people's personal lives, then i don't know what is.

Were conservatives do tend to implement limited involvement, is in the corporate/capitalist world, hence deregulation, privitisation and globalisation.
The traditional (now fringe-) left would rather have more regulation of corporations and less in personal lives.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Exactly. Its a matter of who's side your on: Power or People.
A Progressive (on the side of people):

"I believe in Capitalism to the extent that it improves the lives of people."

A Republican or DNC Democrat:

"I believe in Capitalism. Sure, some people get left behind but its a tuff world and its survival of the fittest out there."

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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
61. I think it is much more frequent that
"conservative" republicans regard the US Treasury as their own personal "family fortune." I'm not naive, I know there are always kickbacks, even in democratic administrations, but the level that this one has elevated it to is diabolical.

BTW, GREAT thread everyone!!
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. We often use the term
corporatism, which, ironically, was Mussolini's preferred term for fascism. But is does describe the capture of legitimate governmental areas of responsibility by private solely profit based concerns.

Generally these days they fall into a few broad classes, Energy monopolists and marketeers, Military contractors and service providers, and public resource capture schemes. These groups profit most from neo conservatism's corporatist alignment.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. Google Leo Strauss; and Straussians
Then use Leo Strauss as your conceptual foundation as you read PNAC.

Most importantly, many of Strauss's ideological foundations were influenced by, or reactions to, the Third Reich. Study and know how the Nazis came to power in Germany.

If nothing else the pragmatism of military imperialism was highly valued and accepted by Strauss and his students.
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Neoconservatism is really Imperial Fascism, it sure ain't conservative...
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 02:50 PM by GoreN4
In order to appreciate the governing principles of the neoconservatives, it is helpful to analyze the individual often described as the original advocate of modern neoconservative thinking, Dr. Leo Strauss.

Leo Strauss:
Philosophical Father of the Neoconservatives

“Because mankind is intrinsically wicked, he has to be governed…Such governance can only be established, however, when men are united- and they can only be united against other people."

“those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right - the right of the superior to rule over the inferior…The people are told what they need to know and no more."
- Dr. Leo Strauss

"…for bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue – weapons of mass destruction – because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."
- Paul Wolfowitz, May 29, 2003

"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."
- Richard Perle, November 19, 2003

It is widely acknowledged the Bush administration was not particularly honest about the reasons it gave to the public for the invasion of Iraq. Paul Wolfowitz, former deputy secretary of defense, acknowledged the evidence used to justify the war was always “murky” and now says that the main rationale for the Iraq war, “disarming” Saddam of a WMD program, was more of a “bureaucratic” reason than a national security reason.

His neoconservative colleague, Richard Perle also admitted the war was in violation of International Law, but nonetheless it was the “right thing” to do.

Many Americans have difficulty believing the Bush administration purposely engaged in a campaign of diversion and deception to convince the public that an invasion of Iraq was urgent and necessary. While these facts are disconcerting, they are not surprising given the self-proclaimed philosophical underpinning of neoconservative ideology.

In 1938 German political philosopher Leo Strauss arrived in the U.S., an ethnic Jew and refugee from Nazi Germany. He became a professor at the University of Chicago, where he specialized in philosophical analysis of the classic Greek tradition. He explored basic philosophical questions including of the structure of society and whether or not it can be founded on rational principles. Paul Wolfowitz was introduced to “Straussian” ideology while earning his PhD under Dr. Strauss at the University of Chicago.

Shadia Drury, professor of political theory at the University of Regina in Saskatchewan, wrote two of the most interesting analysis of “Straussian” ideology. Her two in-depth books on this subject are entitled; The Political Ideas of Leo Strauss (1988) and Leo Strauss and the American Right (1997). She deftly argues that the use of deception and manipulation in current US policy flows directly from the doctrines espoused by Leo Strauss (1899-1973).

These teachings include the philosophy that deception is the normal process in politics. Therefore secrecy is a paramount goal of government, especially with issues regarding foreign policies. Strauss also believed that society was comprised of three different classes of people, with only the “wise” elite who understand that “perpetual deception” is required between the rulers and those to be ruled over. According to Drury, Strauss believed that society was composed of three classes of people:

“There are indeed three types of men: the wise, the gentlemen, and the vulgar. The wise are the lovers of the harsh, unadulterated truth. They are capable of looking into the abyss without fear and trembling. They recognise neither God nor moral imperatives. They are devoted above all else to their own pursuit of the “higher” pleasures...”

The second type, the gentlemen, are lovers of honour and glory. They are the most ingratiating towards the conventions of their society – that is, the illusions of the cave. They are true believers in God, honour, and moral imperatives. They are ready and willing to embark on acts of great courage and self-sacrifice at a moment’s notice.

The third type, the vulgar many, are lovers of wealth and pleasure. They are selfish, slothful, and indolent. They can be inspired to rise above their brutish existence only by fear of impending death or catastrophe.”

It is important to realize that Dr. Strauss was openly contemptuous of secular democracy. In his framework; "those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right- the right of the superior to rule over the inferior." Straussian theory thus requires the "The people are told what they need to know and no more."

While the elite are capable of absorbing the absence of any moral truth, Strauss thought, the masses could not be exposed to the truth or they would fall into nihilism or anarchy. Perhaps this governing philosophy of blanket secrecy provides a parallel to the neoconservatives strategy regarding Iraq and an inability to be truthful with the American people about the reasons for the war, which have continual been shifted when no viable WMD stockpiles or WMD programs were found in Iraq.

Moreover, an equally interesting aspect of Straussian teaching is that religion is absolutely essential for imposing moral law on the masses (or vulgar many). At the same time, Strauss stressed that religion is to be reserved for the masses alone, as the ruling elite need not be bound by it. In fact, he argued it would illogical for the rulers to be bound by religion since the truths proclaimed by religion are in his words "a pious fraud."

Hence, secular society is the least desirable situation because it leads to individualism, liberalism, and relativism. While these are the traits the Founding Fathers viewed as most desirable, in the Straussian ideology it is these same traits that promote dissent, which could weaken society's ability to 'cope with external threats.' Strauss was ambivalent as what religion was needed to facilitate social control of the masses, only that a religion was required in his analysis.

Strauss also believed that the inherently aggressive nature of human beings could only be restrained by a powerful nationalistic state. "Because mankind is intrinsically wicked, he has to be governed," he wrote. "Such governance can only be established, however, when men are united- and they can only be united against other people."

Drury makes the observation that a ‘perpetual war’ is a requirement in the Straussian political framework, and a 'external threat’ must exist even if it has to be manufactured. She concludes with this foreboding analysis of how Straussian philosophy permeates the underlying neoconservative political strategy.

“In short, they all thought that man’s humanity depended on his willingness to rush naked into battle and headlong to his death. Only perpetual war can overturn the modern project, with its emphasis on self-preservation and “creature comforts.”

“…This terrifying vision fits perfectly well with the desire for honour and glory that the neo-conservative gentlemen covet. It also fits very well with the religious sensibilities of gentlemen. The combination of religion and nationalism is the elixir that Strauss advocates as the way to turn natural, relaxed, hedonistic men into devout nationalists willing to fight and die for their God and country.

...I never imagined when I wrote my first book on Strauss that the unscrupulous elite that he elevates would ever come so close to political power, nor that the ominous tyranny of the wise would ever come so close to being realized in the political life of a great nation like the United States. But fear is the greatest ally of tyranny."

Straussian ideology toward foreign policy is plainly Machiavellian in orientation. During the 1990s the neoconservative thesis was expanded and formally articulated by neoconservative groups such PNAC and AEI members Karl Rove, President Bush’s political advisor, who has boosted that he reads Machiavelli’s ‘The Prince’ every year.

If one believes that political order is stable only if the people are united by an external threat, then if no external threat exists, one has to be manufactured. In many crucial aspects, this philosophy of government mirrors the current actions of the U.S government with respect to the “war on terror.” After the September 11th tragedy, these polices of a world order dominated by US military power are being implemented.

Almost one year after the Iraq war had commenced, it was revealed that President Bush had initiated the formal process to notify the U.S. government of the nation imminently going to war with Iraq occurred in February 2002.274 This Presidential notification was followed up by a formal request in the spring of 2002 that General Tommy Franks begin to construct an invasion plan for Iraq.

Although this administration continued to deny that a decision had been made, the facts speak for themselves. As required in Straussian political theory, an “external threat” was created months later in the autumn of 2002. This campaign was designed to create the requisite societal fear necessary so that the “wise” rulers could pursue a strategy to be kept secret from the masses. As prescribed, the role of religion was often evoked as a divine force guiding our political leaders in a battle of “good versus evil.”

The mantra of “united we stand” created the necessary hyper-nationalism to drown out critical analysis of the facts surrounding the war. Under the threat of “mushroom clouds,” our prime nemesis, Bin Laden, was skillfully replaced by the Bush administration into our old yet new public enemy #1, Saddam Hussein.

***Segment #2******

Project for a New American Century (PNAC)
Neoconservative Geostrategy 1992 – 2002

"The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor."

-Project for a New American Century (PNAC),
Rebuilding America’s Defenses, September 2000

“God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.”
-President George W. Bush, June 2003, as reported by former Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas quoting President Bush

"Oil and gas are not the ultimate aims of the U.S. . It's about control. If the U.S. controls the sources of energy of its rivals -- Europe, Japan, China and other nations aspiring to be more independent -- they win."
- Pepe Escobar, Asia Times

Despite the initial shock of the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, many aspects of current US geostrategy following 9/11 appear to be carefully planned in the late 1990s. A cursory analysis of the various policy documents published the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) relay sufficient details of the Bush administration’s geostrategy. Interestingly, many Americans fail to appreciate the implications of these numerous policy papers published over a 10-year period, beginning in 1992, and continuing into 1998, 2000 and 2002.

In 1992, the final year of George H. Bush’s presidency, Paul Wolfowitz took the lead in drafting an internal set of military guidelines which is typically referred to as a "Defense Planning Guidance.” At the time Wolfowitz was then under secretary of defense for policy (the Pentagon's third-highest ranking civilian), and originally authored this document for then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney. In this draft of the Defense Planning Guidance document, it was advocated that with the fall of the Soviet Union, a window of opportunity was available for the United States to exert an aggressive unilateral geostrategy with a stated goal of preventing any nation of any groups of nations from “aspiring to seek a larger global role.”

”In serving as world "constable," the PNAC report went on, no other countervailing forces will be permitted to get in the way. Such actions "demand American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations," for example. No country will be permitted to get close to parity with the U.S. when it comes to weaponry or influence; therefore, more U.S. military bases will be established in the various regions of the globe. (A post-Saddam Iraq may well serve as one of those advance military bases.)”

This strategy for global dominance required a hybrid economic/military nexus in order to enforce US supremacy. This document did not escape the public’s attention once it was leaked to the press, instantly creating much controversy in Washington, DC.

The following interview with Washington Post reporter Barton Gellman offers insight of the reactions to this story at the time.

You have to take yourself back to 1992. This is the first time that the Defense Department gathers itself to say, "What is our new strategic mission in the world now that there is no more Soviet Union?"...

.... they said, "Our number one mission in the world, now that we are the sole superpower is to make sure we stay that way."

They wanted to pocket that gain. And what was so politically insensitive in this internal document, which wasn't meant for distribution, is it talked about not only Russia, but Germany, Japan, India, all as potential regional hegemons that could rise up to challenge the United States as at least a regional and, potentially, a global superpower. They said their number one mission is to quash that.

What was the (world's) reaction?

Well, most of the countries I just named were on some kind of friendly terms, or central allies of the United States. They were none too pleased to be named as potential rivals. The public reaction was, "Good God, we're supposed to have a peace dividend now. The Cold War is over. Let's get on with our lives. Of course, stay strong enough to protect ourselves. But what in the world are you doing, going out there and looking for trouble?"

It was very controversial in Congress. There was an enormous amount of commentary by the opinion leaders saying, "This is way over the top." And, it was an election year. And they caved.

Based on the reaction of the world community in the months leading up the 2003 Iraq war, the majority of the world community still does not harbor a positive impression of U.S. geostrategy outlined in the original 1992 strategy document. Indeed, the world community seems increasingly intolerant and fearful of a hegemonic U.S. superpower in the opening years of this new century. The failure of the George W. Bush administration to gain U.N. authorization for the Iraq war, in conjunction with the largest anti-war protests in recorded history show that a great number of nations and their citizens oppose the neoconservative agenda as still ‘way over the top.’

One year after the Iraq war, an international poll showed that a substantial number of countries who have been traditional U.S. allies “believe the U.S. is conducting its campaign against terror to control Mid East oil and to dominate the world.”131 According to the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a majority of people living in Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey, all Muslim-majority nations with favorable relations with the U.S, and a sizable number of people in France, Germany and Russia also have suspicions about the campaign against terror.

This small group of ideologues provided the basis for a new overt US foreign policy agenda. To appreciate the significance of 9/11 and how it has been utilized to pursue previously documented policies deserves careful analysis. Individuals such as Paul Wolfowitz were considered fringe members of the Republican Party’s far right-wing. After the 1992 elections, this group was out of power, but began the process of preparing for the next opportunity when Republicans would win back the White House.

In 1997, like-minded members of this group founded an organization called ‘The Project for a New American Century” (PNAC). This group of individuals included an impressive array of politicians and theoricians that included; Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Lynne Cheney, James Woolsey, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Bill Kristol, James Bolton, Jeb Bus, Zalmay M. Khalilzad, William Bennett, and Dan Quayle. Despite their reputations and authority, the views of the PNAC group were often regarded as perhaps too extreme by the mainstream conservatives who controlled the Republican Party.

However, following the 2000 election of George W. Bush, these former political “outsiders” became powerful “insiders” within the White House, and were placed in positions where they could exert maximum influence on US policy.

-Dick Cheney as Vice President,-Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary, Wolfowitz as Deputy Defense Secretary
-I. Lewis “Scotter” Libby as Cheney's Chief of Staff
-Elliot Abrams as the official in charge of Middle East policy at the National Security Council (NSC)
-Dov Zakheim as comptroller for the Defense Department
-John Bolton as Undersecretary of State
-Richard Perle as chair of the Defense Policy advisory board at the Pentagon
-Paula Dobriansky, the Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs in the Bush administration.

Members also included Jeb Bush, younger brother of George W. Bush and Governor of Florida, and William Kristol, Editor of the magazine 'The Weekly Standard', and Dick Cheney’s wife, Lynne Cheney.

The military-industrial-intelligence-petroleum nexus was also represented in the PNAC by former Lockheed-Martin vice president, Bruce Jackson, ex-CIA Director James Woolsey, and senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, Norman Podhoretz, were signatories to the PNAC policy document. In essence, members of PNAC were able to formulate most of incoming President George W. Bush’s foreign policies.

For the first eights months in power, some of these polices were openly pursued such as insistence on a National Missile Defense (NMD) system, and cancellation of the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) treaty. However, these advisors were not able to pursue the more ambitious aspects of their geostrategy. Within their famous strategy document from the autumn of 2000, 'Rebuilding America’s Defenses', it was lamented that the desired “transformation” of the U.S. military would be a long and difficult process without a massive external threat to provide a catalyst for their larger goals. This PNAC document was released in September 2000, and noted...

"…the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor."

It was the Bush administration’s response to the historical opportunity presented in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 terrorists’ attacks which allowed previously unpalatable foreign policies to be overtly pursued by the U.S government.

Although many Americans are still not familiar with the Project for a New American Century, the information about the U.S. geostrategy espoused in their policy documents is found on numerous websites both here and abroad. Indeed, some comments from European foreign policy-makers reflect significant concern about the transformation of the United States from a largely multilateralist nation to one which openly espouses an eagerness for “endless warfare.” These policies are seen as a U.S. declaration to seek global hegemony and domination – at any costs.

On July 10, 2003 U.S. Representative Ron Paul (Texas-R) gave a powerful speech on the house floor in which he admonished what had transpired within the U.S. government and his own political party. Although Representative Paul’s speech went largely unreported in the U.S. mass-media, the following excerpts warrant carefully analysis:

“Will the euphoria of grand military victories—against non-enemies—ever be mellowed? Someday, we as a legislative body must face the reality of the dire situation in which we have allowed ourselves to become enmeshed. Hopefully, it will be soon!

We got here because ideas do have consequences. Bad ideas have bad consequences, and even the best of intentions have unintended consequences. We need to know exactly what the philosophic ideas were that drove us to this point; then, hopefully, reject them and decide on another set of intellectual parameters.

There is abundant evidence exposing those who drive our foreign policy justifying preemptive war. Those who scheme are proud of the achievements in usurping control over foreign policy. These are the neoconservatives of recent fame. Granted, they are talented and achieved a political victory that all policymakers must admire. But can freedom and the Republic survive this takeover? That question should concern us.

None of this happened by accident or coincidence. Precise philosophic ideas prompted certain individuals to gain influence to implement these plans. The neoconservatives—a name they gave themselves—diligently worked their way into positions of power and influence. They documented their goals, strategy and moral justification for all they hoped to accomplish. Above all else, they were not and are not conservatives dedicated to limited, constitutional government.

Neo-conservatism has been around for decades and, strangely, has connections to past generations as far back as Machiavelli. Modern-day neo-conservatism was introduced to us in the 1960s. It entails both a detailed strategy as well as a philosophy of government. The ideas of Teddy Roosevelt, and certainly Woodrow Wilson, were quite similar to many of the views of present-day neocons. Neocon spokesman Max Boot brags that what he advocates is “hard Wilsonianism.” In many ways, there’s nothing “neo” about their views, and certainly nothing conservative. Yet they have been able to co-op the conservative movement by advertising themselves as a new or modern form of conservatism.”

Rep Ron Paul’s views represent what political commentators sometimes refer to as the traditional, “realists” or “paleoconservatives” wing of the Republican Party. Increasingly this philosophy is more aligned with the Libertarian party in the US, not the contemporary Republican Party. The agenda espoused in neoconservative literature is much more imperial regarding foreign policies. One of the many Internet based websites that analyze neoconservative geostrategy includes Bernard Weiner’s informative website, “The Crisis Papers.” 139 The following article relates to a speech given by Dr. Weiner in Houston, Texas during the autumn of 2003.

“On September 17, 2002 the Bush administration published its “National Security Strategy of the United States of America.” The document asserts as the guiding policy of the United States the right to use military force anywhere in the world, at any time it chooses, against any country it believes to be, or it believes may at some point become, a threat to American interests. No country has ever asserted such a sweeping claim to global domination as is now being made by the United States.

Furthermore, it declares that “The US national security strategy will be based on a distinctly American internationalism that reflects the union of our values and our national interests.” This bold sort of internationalism may appear presumptuous to other countries, governments and religious groups when it proclaims that what ever is good for America is good for the world. As President Bush asserts in the introduction of the document, America’s values “are right and true for every person, in every society...”

While many people from around the world naturally tend to harbor nostalgic notions of their own country, it is often problematic for a nation state to boldly proclaim that its “national interests” and values are “true” for every nation on Earth. The NSS does not address what constitutes US ‘national interests,’ but it is quite clear that “preemptive” warfare is not one of the self-evident truths or universal rights of mankind as declared in our Declaration of Independence. In contrast, the universal ideas expressed by the Founders Fathers of the U.S. are the unalienable rights to ‘Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.’ This is a major distinction.

The essential claim asserted in the 2002 NSS document is the right of the United States to take unilateral military action against another country without having to offer verifiable evidence that it is acting to prevent a clear and verifiable threat of attack. This assertion was used to justify the 2003 Iraq war, and basically states the U.S. has all-encompassing power to resort to violence whenever it decides to do so while using very vague language that cannot withstand the scrutiny of critical analysis or International Law: “We must be prepared to stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of Mass Destruction.”

This philosophy represents a radical departure from the post-War World Two period, as it does not apply to a nation’s right to self-defense from imminent attack, but proclaims that potential, ambiguous threats at some point in the future will be used to justify U.S. military action. From a hardcore perspective geostrategic, this policy appears to be an attempt to use military action to overrule economic reality. As U.S. policy makers lose confidence in the economic strength and competitiveness of the American economic structure vis-à-vis its major international rivals, policy makers may increasingly be fearful of dislocations within the domestic social structure. The ruling elites may view the application of US military power as the mechanism by which it can counteract some of the troubling economic reality.

******next segment****

George Washington was the first of a handful of generals ever elected to the presidency and Dwight D. Eisenhower was the last.

Both these warriors bequeathed to posterity a signal warning concerning militarism in their farewell addresses. Washington addressed the dangers of a large standing army and Eisenhower warned of our burgeoning military industrial complex. Absent a radical reverse and transformation of our government, Johnson Chalmers argues four “sorrows” will befall America: 1) it will be in a state of perpetual war, inspiring more terrorism than it can defeat in passing; 2) there will be a loss of democracy and constitutional rights; 3) truthfulness in public discourse will be replaced by propaganda and disinformation; and 4) we will be bankrupt. Under these situations, there would be only one way to accurately describe the proposed form of government: Authoritarian Fascism.

“It is the very nature of power that it attracts the sort of people who should not have it. The United States, as the world's last superpower, is a prize that attracts men and women willing to do absolutely anything to win that power, and hence are also willing to do absolutely anything with that power once they have it. If one thinks about it long enough, one will realize that all tyrants, past and most especially present, must use deception on their population to initiate a war. No citizen of a modern industrialized nation will send their children off to die in a war to grab another nation's resources and assets, yet resources and assets are what all wars are fought over. The nation that wishes to initiate a war of conquest must create the illusion of an attack or a threat to start a war, and must always give their population of cowards an excuse never to question that carefully crafted illusion.

It is naive, not to mention racist, to assume that tyrants appear only in other nations and that somehow America is immune simply because we're Americans. America has escaped the clutches of a dictatorship thus far only through the efforts of those citizens who, unlike the Germans of the 1930s, have the moral courage to stand up and point out where the government is lying to the people. And unless more Americans are willing to have that kind of individual courage, then future generations may well look back on the American people with the same harshness of judgement with which we look back on the 1930s Germans. It is said that each of society's institutions is a crystallization of the dominant values of the culture. If so, we appear to be living in the time of the lie.”

In the background we have the philosophical "imperatives" for war.

We have numerous Bush officials as followers of the fascistic Straussian imperatives for "externalizing" the threat to the nation state as a means of maintaining political control. The Straussian imperatives are further advocated with Brezinski's famous book on the "Grand Chessboard," which advocated as an "imperative" that the US seek to maintain its hegemonic role by controlling the large area referred to as Eurasia. These last two "imperatives" can only be fulfilled by taking control of the Caspian and Middle East regions with military force. All of it designed to hide the reason for almost all wars in modern times: control over resources.

Our nation was founded on principles which are openly hostile to the Straussian/ Machiavellian philosophy. The ideology of fascism gains its appeal from reacting against from desperate people anxious and angry over their perception that their social and economic position was sinking and frustrated with the constant risk of chaos, uncertainty and inefficiency implicit in a modern democracy based on these principles. Fascism is the antithesis of democracy. We fought a war against it not half a century ago; over 50 million perished as victims of fascism and champions of liberty.


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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
70. By the way, I found this fascinating to read
DId you write it now or is it from somewhere else?

I posted this on a mixed political board and someone (a right winger)wants a source - I am not sure why since it is not like there are conspiracies being thrown around. In any event, it could be useful if I need to tell him.
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #70
119. Sources on Neoconservatism doctine
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 09:43 AM by GoreN4
I wrote much of what you read in the pervious post, but it had a lot of excerpts too. Here's a sampling, but for any conservatives who wish to know more about neoconservatism, or more properly, Fasicist Imperialism:

Ideology of Dr. Leo Strauss, etc.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Leo_Strauss

Original 1992 Defense Policy Guidance story - controversial, but formed the the basis of PNAC circa 1997-2000
http://www.yale.edu/strattech/92dpg.html

Weiner, Bernard, “How We Got Into This Imperial Pickle: A PNAC Primer’, Crisis Papers, May 26, 2003 http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm

Drury, Shadia, ‘The Political Ideas of Leo Strauss,” Palgrave Macmillan, 1988

Drury, Shadia, “Leo Strauss and the American Right,” Palgrave Macmillan, 1997

Postel, Danny, ‘Noble lies and perpetual war: Leo Strauss, the neo-cons, and Iraq’ opendemocracy.com, October 16, 2003
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-2-95-1542.jsp

Hon.. Ron Paul of Texas in the House of Representatives, Speech “Neo – Conned !,” July 10, 2003 http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2003/cr071003.htm
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
72. Very informative post, thanks!
:hi:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
31. Because they are?....:
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 01:53 PM by Zorra
We are supposed to be a government OF, By, and For the People.

Neocons favor rule by the economically elite, and pre-emptive military aggression for imperialistic purposes, for starters.

I'll quote you:

"I was thinking yesterday, that the linear political spectrum doesn't really tell the whole story. To the left, you supposedly have those who espouse increasing Governement interference (more liberal) and to the right, less governement (more conservative)."

"It only makes sense that the more we place power in the hands of the governement, the closer we come to these types of societies."

We, the people Supposed to be the Government of the United States.
Huge private corporate monopolies, and other economically elite entities, have hijacked our government for their own purposes. The US is, essentially, already a totalitarian society. The pResident of our nation was not elected, he was installed.

Neo-cons and republicans almost universally advocate unrestricted capitalism, which will inevitably leads to a situation where powerful monopolies are created which will seek to control government for their own purposes contrary to the best interests of the people.

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any controlling private power. "
President Franklin Delano Roosevelt - on the threat to democracy by corporate power

Some definitions of right wing:

The more conservative or reactionary section of a political party, organization, etc.
www.pbs.org/democracy/glossary/print.html

A conservative political outlook which rejects most forms of change and is usually hostile to ideas on the left.
schools.cbe.ab.ca/b836/curriculum/social/socialgloss.html

Right Wing (n) - this term describes a candidate (or political campaign) whose positions mirror or closely resemble points of view put forth in the Republican platform.
www.rism.org/4324/glossary.htm

those who support political or social or economic conservatism; those who believe that things are better left unchanged
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

An extended definition of right-wing:

In politics, the term right-wing (or political right or simply on the right) refers to the segment of the political spectrum associated either with any of several strains of conservatism, or with opposition to left-wing politics. Some commentators also use the term with reference to fascism, although few non-fascists on the political right would consider their own politics to have anything in common with fascism.

This use of the terms "left" and "right" originated during the French Revolution. See Left-Right politics for the origin of the terms and for a summary of what political views would usually be characterized as "left" and "right". Many don't find the left/right dichotomy helpful in discussing contemporary politics (see Political spectrum for discussion of alternatives), but it remains a very common view of the political landscape.

Today, some conservatives who see themselves as defending society and its traditional institutions and freedoms from what they consider the irrational liberalism (in the American sense of the word) or the repressive socialism of the left sometimes use the term "right-wing" in a positive sense. This active embrace of the term probably occurs more commonly in Europe and even in Latin America than in the United States. Some non-conservative groups also identify themselves as "on the right" (at least within some context) to indicate their opposition to the left, though such groups very likely dispute the left-right characterization altogther. Fascist and neo-fascist groups also often embrace the term positively, which is one reason many conservative groups shun the term.

Leftists often use the term "right-wing" as a pejorative label: they interpret the right as defending the traditional power of aristocrats, royalty, established religions and the wealthy against that of commoners. In this sense, the term has also become associated with nationalist or racist movements which promote the interests of a dominant majority, or, in cases such as apartheid-era South Africa, with a ruling minority, denying the rights of other groups. The radical right has associations with fascism or with terrorism, just as the radical left has associations with communism or with terrorism. Of course, most groups on the left and right tend to vigorously deny any such linkages.

http://www.free-definition.com/Right-wing-politics.html

My personal subjective definition of the right wing, based on personal observation, is that it is a conservative political body that generally supports pre-emptive military aggression (Hitler, Stalin,Iraq, Bu$h, PNAC neocons, republicans), favors unrestricted private or state capitalism (Enron, republicans, Bu$h, Hitler, Stalin), restriction of civil liberties (Patriot Act- Bu$h, Ashcroft, republicans, Hitler, Stalin), imperialism (Iraq), unrestricted defense spending (Hitler, Stalin, PNAC neocons, republicans, Reagan, Bu$h), and fiscal irresponsibility leading to huge deficits and public debt, and unbalanced national budgets (PNAC neocons, Bu$h, Bush I, Reagan, Hitler, Stalin), and rule by an elite economic class (Federalist Party, Monarchal states, Bu$h, Reagan)

Definition of democracy: Government exercised directly by the people or through elected representatives. A political or social unit based on democratic rule. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

Definition of liberal: Favoring democratic reform and the use of government resources to effect social progress.

Definition of conservative: Favoring traditional views or values, tending to oppose change.

Definition of neo-conservatism:

Neoconservatism refers to the political goals and ideology of the "new conservatives" in the United States, characterized by hawkish or jingoist views on foreign policy and a lesser emphasis on social issues and minimal government than other strains of American conservatism. The "newness" refers either to being new to American conservatism (often coming from liberal or socialist backgrounds) or to being part of a "new wave" of conservative thought and political organization. In both meanings the term is sometimes used pejoratively. This criticism has grown due to the rising human and monetary costs of a major neoconservative initiative, the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.

More specifically, the term refers to journalists, pundits, policy analysts, and institutions affiliated with policy think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) and periodicals such as Commentary and The Weekly Standard. The neoconservatives, often dubbed the neocons by supporters and critics alike, are credited with (or blamed for) influencing U.S. foreign policy, especially under the administrations of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) and George W. Bush (2001-present).

This political group supported a militant anticommunism, minimal social welfare (to the consternation of extreme free-market libertarians), and sympathy with a traditionalist agenda (is more inclined than other conservatives toward vigorous government in the service of the goals of traditional morality and pro-business policies). They feuded with traditional right-wing Republicans, and the nativist, protectionist, isolationists once represented by ex-Republican Pat Buchanan, who is the editor of the paleoconservative magazine The American Conservative.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Neoconservatism_(United_States)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. What if government is owned by corporations,
and then you place more power in the hands of government?
Would that result in a left-wing totalitarianism?

Despotism is not exclusive to the left.

Hitler, though spokesperson and eventually leader of the National Socialist Party, was anything but Left. He hated communists and socialists as much as jews.

"...and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship..." - Goebbels

"..don't think that the mere form of government can safeguard a nation against despotism.."
"Despotism", Bibliotheca Britannica 1946 (film)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4971.htm
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thought is not two-dimensional
And, thus, a worldview cannot fit on a political spectrum. Excellent post!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Sure a worldview can fit on a political spectrum:
Do you think resources should be privately or publicly controlled?

I'd say that is both a political and philosophical issue.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Which resource, specifically and in what circumstance?
Does that fit on a two-dimensional spectrum? Where?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. all resources, under all circumstances
it fits on the scale of despotism vs democracy, at the opposite end of despotism. I'd say public control over resources implies democracy.

I call it the 'scale of extremism', refering to a popular wisdom that extremism is a bad thing no matter what the political or religious color. That notion still referes to a scale of left vs right or progressive vs conservative.
The scale of despotism ignores left vs right and equivalents, and only takes into account a few symptoms and conditions, mainly concentration of economic power, concentration of media control and concentration of political power. The more concentrated, the more despotic. The less concentrated, the more democratic.

"Despotism", Bibliotheca Britannica 1946
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4971.htm (video)
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Green Lantern Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. Frame of reference
I would like to suggest that the utilization of resources depends primarily on how your society is organized, as to whether it is a political process in control of the economic system, or whether the economic system is in the superior, controlling position. . If the political system prevails, then you will more likey have rationed, apportioned use of resources, including husbandry and conservation of same, including recycling. If the economic system is the prevalent model, then the resouces are more likely to be the property of the strongest, those in control of the economic power. Control of the resources will lead to a system of monopolistic power, both within economic realms and the subordomate political sphere.
Here in the US we had, some 40 or so years ago, a prevailing political system. It has, however, been over ridden by the economic powers of corporatism and private wealth, and we now find ourselves with little meaningful political power to use to positively impact our lives. In fact, I would, at this juncture, suggest that Joe Lunchpail andfamily are barely at the survival level, both politically and economically.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
88. agreed. And economic power overriding political power..
didn't happen just like that; it's not a law of nature, it's the law of men that made it so.

The justicial system allowed corporations to abuse the 14th amendment (created to protect freed slaves) to limit accountability for corporations, and subsequently allowed deregulation of corporations.
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Green Lantern Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Man made
I agree-didn't intend to suggest it was a natural law. The progression from an economy controlled by a political system to our current situation is definitely man made, or perhaps more accurately, a creature of the corporations.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
48. I would love to open this thread up to Freepers
Bring it on!
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I'm an ex-FReeper
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 02:38 PM by Arator
Does that count? ;^)

Jim Rob banned me when he went Bushbot. I was anti-Bush before anti-Bush was cool.

Funny thing is Jim Rob used to be too. Ever read his classic "I'll never vote for a cokehead felon" post?
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. So how are you liking it here?
Edited on Wed Jul-21-04 02:45 PM by info being
Welcome, by the way.

The only thing that bothers me about this place is that there aren't many dissenting viewpoints, so I think a lot of us are out-of-touch with how to talk to the "other side" in our real lives.
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. I'm liking it just fine...
The anti-corporate anti-imperialist anti-war right and left have much more in common with each other than we do with the corporate warmongering Empire-building fascists that share our party labels.

Why don't we ditch those jerks and join forces in one anti-corporate anti-imperialist anti-war party?
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
84. Sounds good to me
Edited on Thu Jul-22-04 10:39 AM by Nadienne
:)

...after November, at least...
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Do you have a copy or link to that "cokehead felon" post
I would love to read it!!
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Arator Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Here ya go...
To: Freedom Wins

So, it doesn't matter if he snorted coke as a youth? It was a long time ago, a youthful in-discretion? Kinda like people who frequented sneakeasies during prohibition? Kind of a cute story, eh? Well, how about all the people whose lives have been destroyed by being arrested for the felony of drug possession? What about the millions of people who are rotting away in your filthy drug infested prisons at this very moment?

Well, by God, if you people insist on electing another cokehead as President, you damned well better throw open all the prison cell doors and free every man, woman, and child you're holding on drug charges. And if you're gonna elect another drug felon as President, you'd better rescind each and every one of your unconstitutional drug laws now on the books, including all of your unconstitutional search and seizure laws, and your asset forfeiture laws, and your laws that enable your unconstitutional snooping into our bank accounts and cash transactions. Well, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You people are sick! Conservatives my ass. You people are nothing but a bunch of non-thinking hypocrits! You're a shame and a disgrace to the Republic!

And, I, for one, am tired of taking orders from cokeheads and felons! Elect another one and I'll tell you what. I'll be ready for war! It'll be time to take up arms and run the filthy lying bastards out!

Posted on 08/20/1999 03:19:31 PDT by Jim Robinson

A mere one year later, Jim Rob drank the Bush kool-aid and banned anti-Bush paleo-conservative/libertarians like yours truly.
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. My, that is hilarious....
I especially like this prophetic remark:

"Elect another one and I'll tell you what. I'll be ready for war!"
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funkybutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. HAHA...no wonder you got banned..and welcome to the DU n/t
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. We all know that would not be a wise idea...
the conversation would de-evolve into mindless invectives, brain damaged vitriol, and propaganda as soon as the neocons showed up. Personally, I'm sick of it.

You guys are providing more thought provoking discussion than could ever be found on Free Republic. All they do over there is banter, banter, banter without saying a thing ... and they're good at. Of course it doesn't take much effort to be a goose stepping, boot licking, zieg heiling Hitler youth.
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. This is one of the best threads
I have read in my few months on the DU, full of reasoned logic and well founded conclusions. I've been bogged down in several other threads lately with name calling and circular, or poor, logic, or situations where a hit and run poster gets on my nerves. I don't have anything to add at the moment, but I'm keeping an eye on this. I was starting to get a little down on the discussions, thanks everyone for renewing my faith in the DU!

KICK!
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
69. Damn right!
You beat me too it. This is the best thread I've read on DU in a long time. It should immediately be locked and tacked as an example of what political message board threads should aspire to be. Thanks to all that are participating!
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veracity Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
58. Neocons are NOT fundamentalists
In fact.. most of the 'neocons' who formed PNAC are former democrats! Their vision is not related to morality or religious belief. It just so happens that Bush is being propped up by the neocons who control his foreign policy, and the right wing fundamentalists who control his domestic policy. In real life, the two groups don't get along at all, and have little in common, if anything.

The neocons are realists to a degree. They understand that the military superiority of the US is a temporary asset, in a world that is heading towards proliferation of chemical, biological, and terrorists weapons. As a result, they devised a strategy to dominate the globe militarily WHILE THEY CAN...and that's NOW. Read their treaties on Rebuilding America's Defenses and you can clearly see that the neocons framed the entire Bush Doctrin of pre-emption and prevention....including the use of nuclear weapons.

I'm glad you're rethinking. But..... here's the group you should know more closely - be sure to scroll down to the links at the PNAC site.

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. "One anti-corporate anti-imperialist anti-war party"
The Green Party. ;)

The Greens believe that Capitalism can be reformed. The Socialists do not believe it can and epsouse a model of Democratic Socialism, not Communism. Libertarians want unbridled Capitalism and Social Freedom.

In my view there is no longer a Republican Party unless a new defintion is designed.

The New Right is a combination of corporatists and Christian Fundamentalists.

The Right Wing Agenda

Abolish

Social Security
Medicare
Employer supplied health insurance
Unemployment Benefits
Welfare
Collective Bargaining
EPA
Public Education
Public Housing
Abortion Rights

Christian Fundies

Christian Prayer in Schools
Homosexuality Illegal
Public display of Christian symbols
Creationism taught in schools.
No evolution theory in schools.

These lists are not complete. Add what you feel is missing, please.

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
98. Look at the difference between Dick Armey + Bob Barr v the rest
I think that people like Armey and Barr, although completey insane, represent the true religious part of the Republican party hence they opposed the Iraq war. Dick Chenney and the PNAC wing are not religious in anyway but are propped up by the religious fenatics.
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Green Lantern Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
68. Political spectrum
The issue you are discussing is essentially one of control. You have flipped the tyrrany from right to left. Dictators, authoritarians, tyrants are your basic creatures of the right. (this is not to deny that one can have a dictatorship of the "left" but it usually comes after the controlling parties are well entrenched and after they determine the correctness of their position. They then cement their position by sliding to the right in their political control system.) The left tends to fade into anarchy and nihilism at the extremes. Leftists tend not to band together as well as RW'ers. Fear usually drives the need for control (see Bushwa et al and the Patriot Act), which leads to secrecy, suppression of dissent, control of media etc. For a very good explanation of the rise of a RW dictatorship, read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" which details the history of Germany from mid-Weimar Republic to the fall of Berlin in 1945.
It lays out how control was established by Hitler and his cronies.
It is relatively easy to create a RW group through the use of fear, but trying to organize the left is an activity approaching the effort required to herd cats. Folks on the left tend to be more forgiving, less anxious and far less willing to impose their beliefs on others.
Hope this helps.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. "The left tends to fade into anarchy and nihilism at the extremes."
I'd sure love to hear about some real world examples of this. For instance, has there ever been a leftwing government that has ever even approached anarchy and nihilism? What would perhaps be the closest example?
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PeeWeeTheMadman Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #74
92. Anarchism
The anarchists have never been able to set up government on their own. When the have attempted it, like in Spain during the civil war or during the russian revolution, they have been crushed by the communists. Also, the left have became most influental in countries where the anarchists have never really been very strong.
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Green Lantern Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #74
93. Anarchy and nilihistm
By their nature both resist or fight authority. Prime examples of both may be found in pre-Revolutionary Russia of the 19th c. They fight order and authority but don't espouse an organized process for replacement. The goal of some 'utopian' theories of government, including the traditional form of communism, include a withering away of the state as the 'final' stage of development. For practical purposes, I cannot think of an example of a government leftwing or otherwise, that voluntarily surrendered power to fall into an unorganized state.

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #74
122. Russian Intelligentsia 1880 or so
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 10:39 AM by JellyBean1
As Nikolai Berdyaev put it: "It is Orthodox asceticism turned inside out, and asceticism without grace. At the base of Russian nihilism, when grasped in its purity and depth, lies the Orthodox rejection of the world..., the acknowledgement of the sinfulness of all riches and luxury, of all creative profusion in art and in thought... Nihilism considers as sinful luxury not only art, metaphysics, and spiritual values, but religion also... Nihilism is a demand for nakedness, for stripping of oneself of all trappings of culture, for the annihilation of all historical traditions, for setting free of the natural man", from Origin of Russian communism,p45.

This leads right into anarchy and Bolshevism. And the revolution in Russia.

Edit: These quotes from Tragedy and Hope by Quigley
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. In other words
The philosophy of Nihilism pre-staged the breakdown of the organized state seen as anarchy, which allowed the Bolsheviks to step into power.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #68
89. i don't quite follow
i'd say nihilism is one of the halmarks of the extreme right. just listen to all the logical fallacies spouted daily by the rw propaganda machine. in essence, centralised authority needs to lie and deceive in order to stay in power.

i'd agree the left tends towards anarchy, but the aim there is a 'functional anarchy', which basically means the opposite of centralised authority, and which *requires* rationality. see Chomsky's "anarcho-syndicalism".
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
75. Could not agree less....
... you are confused about what constitutes "left" and "right".

It is not a matter of how much power a government wields, it is a matter of what they do with that power.

You honestly think Saddam Hussein was a leftist? That's ridiculous. In fact, of all the dictators in the world right now, probably only Castro is left.

You need to do a lot more thinking IMHO.
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suegeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
77. Neo-cons started as cold war liberals
Edited on Thu Jul-22-04 08:14 AM by suegeo
There is a book out there explaining the rise of neoconservatism. I believe the book I read was called "Rise of NeoConservatism." I suggest you read it, or another history of neocons, in order to better understand what's going on today.

The book explains that in our not so distant past, the left was made up of 3 factions, one faction being cold war (anti-commie) liberals. (today's present neo-cons).

While the anti-commie liberals were still a part of the Democratic party, the nutjobs (neocons) started spouting off all their bullshit ideas. For example, Jeane Kirkpatrick was once a democrat, but wrote some paper for a magazine that laid out her nutty ideas, and the neo-cons ate her shit up. Some boob named Kristoff (sp?) and that killer Elliott Abrams, are a few of the insane people now leading the neo-con movement. The Prince of Darkness, Dick Perle, once worked for a democratic senator (Jackson?), and in present times, Perle lead the insane invasion of Iraq. Perle is a neo-con, and a nutty republican. (Mostly, I think he is a fascist money grubbing war profiteer, but that's just my opinion.)

Much the neo-cons' sewage was spouted when many of the neo-cons were belched out of Columbia university.

While the neo-con evil seed was sprouting, the more sane people on the left (I deduce) noticed how crazyass these people were/are. For example, Dan Patrick Monihan (SP), (now dead, a former dem. senator from N.Y.), once hung out with the crazyass cold war liberals, until he saw they were fanatics, and he split with them to return to his democratic party roots. During the break up, he told the neo-cons they were obsessing on communism too much.

In summary, the neo-cons started as liberals, then went whacko and obsessive with communism. During the breakup of the factions that once constituted the left, sensible liberals gave the whackos the insulting name "new conservatives", which got shortened to neo-con. Eventually, the whackos fully parted the democratic party (mostly noticably around the election of the killers Ronald Reagan and the very evil Bush Sr.) and hi-jacked the Republican party.

I'm getting the sense that thinking people in both parties don't want the nutty neocons darkening their door. We on the left sure as hell don't want these people back, as everything they touch, they fuck up.

I don't know if George Bush JR. considers himself to be a neo-con. I think mostly he is like Dick Perle: a war profiterring sock puppet that the neo-cons find easy to manipulate, because, while Jr. is as mean as Sr., Jr. is not as smart as his daddy, by a long shot.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. That's very interesting. I'll have to read that book.
It's seems more and more obvious to me that being on the "right" or the "left" has less and less to do with being "Republican" or "Deomocrat". These parties are hybrids and seem to have a significant number of whackos in both. Right now I'd argue that the whackos are controlling the Republican party.

This country does need a viable third party, but as long as these two groups keep us polarized, I just can't see it coming to fruition......
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silverpatronus Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. i thank you kindly
for saying what you just said. now can you repeat it so the partisans can hear you?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
83. Right vs. Left wing is defined by a commitment to egalitarianism
Democracy is fundamentally a leftist concept. Democracy is a concept tied up with egalitarianism. There can be no hierarchical democracy.

A democracy is a state where:
  • Citizenship is universal. Each person born within the boundaries of the state is a citizen, as is one born abroad to at least one citizen parent or who swears allegiance to the state in a rite of naturalization.
  • Citizenship is equal. Each citizen has an equal opportunity to participate in and influence public affairs. Every adult citizen shall be enfranchised with the right to vote. Decisions are made by a majority voted based on the principle of one man/one vote.
  • Citizenship is inalienable. A guaranteed set of civil liberties is in place to assure full and open public discourse of civic affairs. No citizen may be stripped of his citizenship or otherwise punished by the state for expressing any point of view, no matter how unpopular or even absurd.
This definition is used to spur a Socratic dialog about democracy and should not be taken to mean that there has been, is or ever will be a perfect democracy.

Opposed to this are political systems based on the concept of inequality, for example, a system that favors a particular race over another. If egalitarianism is left wing, then this kind of elitism is right wing.

The inequality may be rigidly enshrined in law (such as South Africa during the Apartheid regimes) or be less formal (such as the Jim Crow South, where blacks could theoretically register to vote but were actively discouraged from doing so). In some of these systems, such as white supremacist South Africa, the favored class is enfranchised and elections are held much as they are in a democratic state. However, because citizenship was either not universal or not equal, we cannot speak of South Africa as having been democratic prior to the 1990s.

Another noteworthy feature of South African white supremacy is that it could not guarantee civil liberties even to the favored class. A white South African who spoke out against injustice was proscribed just as was a black man. Both Donald Wood, a white journalist, and Steven Biko, a black activist, were sentenced to banning for speaking out against legally enshrined white supremacy. One should take this as a warning that political systems based on rigid inequality are necessarily fascist.

Another example of a state that holds elections yet is not democratic is the Islamic Republic of Iran. Here, the hierarchy is based on religious faith. One's rights are determined by how good a Muslim one is in the eyes of powerful clerics. A committee of twelve clerics determines who is and is not eligible to run for parliament.

Neoconservatives express a hostility to democracy. They believe that wealth should be the basis of political hierarchy and that the police power of the state should be used to enforce it. In America, Democracy is subverted by neoconservatives by requiring super-majorities to pass tax increases (such as in California) and, more recently, by disenfranchising voters who are less likely to support candidates whose policies favor the rich (yes, I mean Florida). Neoconservatives also favor institutions such as the WTO, which has the power to impose sanctions on states that allow local governments to pass pollution abatement and labor laws that it deems, after a secret hearing, to be an impediment to free trade.

The most hideous neoconservative enterprise to date is the invasion of Iraq. Iraq was invaded to impose a colonial regime that would allow for an elitist dominance of Iraq's economy by foreign transnational corporations. Rules were put in place to make it very difficult for a native Iraqi government to allow for local control of Iraqi industry. Moreover, the current leaders of Iraq were selected by and responsible to the US government, not the people of Iraq. Of course, brutality is used to put down any resistance to this structure.

In all this, the neoconservatives have demonstrated a belief that the world is a better place if the wealthy elite rule in a system where their political power as well as their wealth is protected by a network of laws and even brutal police power from those who would expropriate their wealth to do useful things like build roads and schools.

From this, it can be concluded that neoconservatism is a right wing ideology and hostile to democractic ideals.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #83
87. Deep.
I'm going to have to study this response further.

I do agree that neocons are contrary to democracy.

I'd further add that I have had similar conversations with conservatives, who are also contrary to democracy. The common response is that we do not live in a democracy, but in a republic. Many conservatives believe democracy is akin to "mob rule". For instance, two men and one woman stranded on an island, and they take a vote as to whether or not the women should get raped (2 to 1 in favor was the outcome).

I don't see how your definition of democracy defends minority rights against majority rule.

Further, you seem to base rightwing/leftwing upon the concept of egalitarianism, or the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political and economic and social equality. This has never been the case in any society ever, and is not now. The very concept of "government" seems to me contrary to the concept of egalitarianism.

But I do agree with your presentments regarding neocons. They are contrary to democracy just the same as any totalitarian/authoritarian/dictatorship would be.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. Response
Edited on Thu Jul-22-04 11:05 PM by Jack Rabbit

I'd further add that I have had similar conversations with conservatives, who are also contrary to democracy. The common response is that we do not live in a democracy, but in a republic. Many conservatives believe democracy is akin to "mob rule". For instance, two men and one woman stranded on an island, and they take a vote as to whether or not the women should get raped (2 to 1 in favor was the outcome).

Democracy has risks. Descent into mob rule is one of them. Is this any worse than the risk of tyranny and oppression from the elites under so-called aristocratic systems? No, it isn't. The risk probably isn't even as bad.

The example of the two creeps and one lady on a desert island is a poor one. Organizing a political system assumes a more complex and civilized setting than a desert island. Also, it is loaded with the notion that two men are naturally bent to wards brutal, criminal behavior.

I don't see how your definition of democracy defends minority rights against majority rule.

The third point of the definition deals with a set of civil liberties to encourage public discourse. It means that no one can be punished by the majority for expressing a minority point of view. One should never assume either that any one person has all the answers or that what doesn't seem like an obviously good answer today will not look much better tomorrow.

The downside is that in a democracy one has to put up with crude forms of expression like pornography and hate speech. It is better to tolerate that sort of thing on the principle of being open and allowing all views than to exclude an idea that might sound strange or even repulsive at first yet be the one that works.

Further, you seem to base rightwing/leftwing upon the concept of egalitarianism, or the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political and economic and social equality. This has never been the case in any society ever, and is not now.

This kind of democracy is an ideal for which to strive, not something that exists. Perhaps in the present world there is no absolute justice either. Does that mean we should give up on the idea of fair trials?

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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. I don't see a downside here
"The downside is that in a democracy one has to put up with crude forms of expression like pornography and hate speech. It is better to tolerate that sort of thing on the principle of being open and allowing all views than to exclude an idea that might sound strange or even repulsive at first yet be the one that works."

Backhanded defenses of liberties are a pet peeve with me. The right reason to allow pornography and hate speech isn't a slippery slope argument. They should be defended on their own intrinsic merits.

A porn tape or racist screed is as similar to Citizen Kane as a retarded person is to a mentally able person. The reason we don't kill all retarded people is not because it might go to far, or that retarded people are the price we have to pay to something or another.

We consider human life precious and we (should) consider human expression precious. Precious for it's own sake, not because sometimes it's good.

YThe problem with utilitarian practical defenses of liberty is that they implicitly accept that if circumstances changed it would be okay to burn books, gas the feeble-minded, etc.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #97
109. Are you serious?
You can't be.

Hate speech is something to be tolerated, but one would hardly consider it to have any intrinsic merit. One should be able to say something like: "All women should be chained to the kitchen and the bedroom and her primary function is to please her man and any woman who doesn't accept this should have the crap beaten out of them until she does." But would you really find intrinsic merit in that?

The only good thing I can say about it is that such garbage is easily brushed aside with the proverbial back of the hand without wasting too much time.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. Can't say I disagree with most of that...however...
For the most part, I concur. Although the analogy I presented was a simple one and was not intended to be absolutely representative of a democratic system, I think it does show the inherent flaw in maintaining the ideals of a truly democratic society.

But the biggest problem I'm having is regarding the concept of equating the political spectrum to the ideal of egalitarianism. This was the heralding point I feel that I made that your failed to address, and it is keeping with the premise I made when I submitted the original thread.

While it may be a fine thing to believe that a government should evolve only as necessary to promote equality of its citizenry, historically this has never been the case. It may be nice to believe that governments should provide cradle-to-grave eudemonia for its people, but that is fantasy. There has never been a government, no matter how good the intentions of its founders, that didn’t engage in class-ism in some form. In the vast majority of governments, this is rampant and flagrant.

It is my belief that government is contrary to the concept of egalitarianism. Government is not intended to provide welfare for its people, nor engender their happiness. Those things can only be found through the actions of the individual.

If one accepts this to be the nature of government, then the question regarding the political spectrum is once again reduced to one of “more” or “less” government, and which is better.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #101
107. Response

(T)he biggest problem I'm having is regarding the concept of equating the political spectrum to the ideal of egalitarianism.

I have just a big a problem with your equating the political spectrum to government control. Some government control is necessary and unavoidable; excessive amounts of it are not. However, the excess could be in service of either a left or the right wing ideology.

Moreover, the excess of government control in the service of what is nominally a left wing ideology defeats its own purpose. The Soviet Union was a good example. In the name of egalitarianism, the Communists became the elite and governed tyrannically long after any justification for concentrated power disappeared. In 1917, Russia was largely made up of illiterate peasants; concentrating political government in the hands of an educated elite (such as Lenin and other Marxists) was perfectly reasonable in those circumstances. However, while the Communists were successful in educating the masses, they failed to open up the political system once the common man was educated and capable of the kind of reasoning it takes to be a responsible citizen in an open political system. In fact, the state became more brutal under Stalin and the oppressive state apparatus was used by his successors to maintain power for its own sake. This only bred popular cynicism which manifested itself in little jokes like "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us."

That, of course, describes a totalitarianism of the left. A totalitarianism of the right is more straightforward. This is because the right is defined by concurring political power based on a hierarchy and political power is used to maintain that hierarchy. There is no question of egalitarianism at all; the right rejects it. When a right winger speaks of "freedom", he doesn't abolishing slavery; in fact, he may mean the freedom of one class to make slaves of another.

While it may be a fine thing to believe that a government should evolve only as necessary to promote equality of its citizenry, historically this has never been the case.

You seem to have the idea that I am with the above definition promoting a socialist economy along with an open and egalitarian political system. That is not the case. Socialism is consistent with egalitarianism, but whether capitalism can exist within the context of an open egalitarian political system is to be regarded as an open question. I will admit that on my bad days I'm inclined to answer it in the negative.

There is no natural right to own private property. That is because in a state of nature, there is no concept of private property. Consequently, it is equally fallacious to speak of abolishing private property as a natural right. A sophisticated economic system, like a sophisticated political system, assumes a level of civilization. It is absurd to discuss such matters in the context of a state of nature. Socialism and capitalism are names given to two competing sets of broad principles for producing and distributing economic goods. Whether one is better than the other depends on circumstances. It is a matter to be discussed by the citizens assembled as equals.

Government is not intended to provide welfare for its people, nor engender their happiness.

Having said what I have said, I almost agree with you. I would probably modify it to something like It is not necessary for government to provide welfare for its people. I'm a democrat, not a utopian. Therefore, it is not for government to promote egalitarianism in all things. That is impossible. One person is distinct from the next. However, it is for a democratic government to assure that each citizen has equal political rights: citizenship is a universal right; any citizen is eligible to be chosen leader; all citizens have one vote; all citizens have the right to speak out without fear of retribution. Otherwise, all questions are open for discussion.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #107
114. Heh heh heh heh........
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 01:16 PM by RUSTY SHACKLEFORD
Yeah! (What he said.)

Seriously though, I think this conversation has plunged into the abyss. I have found myself at the crossroads of "the nexus of oblivion road" and "limbo avenue".

It's obvious that you've thought far more about this than I. And although I can't see how to attach the ambiguous concept of egalitarianism to the very tangible concept of government, it makes for an interesting discussion.

It sounds like your political spectrum goes, left to right, from freedom to slavery. And government primarily serves to regulate the amount of relative freedom (spoken: "slavery").

My political spectrum goes left to right, from absolute domination by government to absolute absence of it. In my opinion, whether it be a Republican or Democratic government makes no nevermind. They are flip sides of the same coin. Too much of either turns me. In my world, Government serves only to protect us from each other, not to rule us. I suppose I might be considered somewhat an anarchist.

I'm not certain though that I am being read correctly. My postion is that an individual can hold conventional politically conservative beliefs and not be contrary to egalitarian philosophy. Do you disagree? For example, what is anti-egalitarian about being against the legalization of drugs? Or for that matter, having concern for the rights of an unborn fetus?

Perhaps this conversation would better serve if specific issues were addressed. Given specific examples of a conventional "right wing" anti-egalitarian positions, it may be easier to understand the nuances of your right/left philosopy. You've previously stated that support for invasion into Iraq was rightwing. I agree that it was anti-egalitarian, but as I've stated previously, I believe this war to be against conservative or libertarian principles, so how can it be rightwing?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. There is a distinction between "right wing" and "conservative"
First, bear in mind that defining the left-right spectrum as I do is much more conventional. Most people would understand Nazi Germany as a right wing state, as I would. It was racist and hierarchical; hence, right wing. However, since it was totalitarian, you would define it as left wing. Do you consider anarchy to be the pure right wing philosophy? How do you explain Noam Chomsky and Emma Goldman? They are usually considered left wing; they are both anarchists.

My position is that an individual can hold conventional politically conservative beliefs and not be contrary to egalitarian philosophy.

I agree with that. That could be the whole key. Being for equality says nothing about one's stand on legalizing drugs or on abortion. It merely says that one person has as much say in it as the next.

The invasion and occupation of Iraq is a colonial enterprise. I'll refer you a piece that ran on DU's home page just prior to the war; months later, I've seen no need to eat these words. The invasion of Iraq certainly wasn't about WMDs or ties to al Qaida. Iraq was invaded to create business opportunities for transnational corporations at the expense of the Iraqi people. The invasion may have toppled a gang of murderers, but it replaced it with a gang of thieves. The Iraqi people still have no say over who governs them or in what that government does. The interim government is responsible to the US administration, not to the Iraqi people. This means that talk of Iraq's sovereignty is pretty much a joke. What you have here is gunboat diplomacy with cruise missiles.

Colonialism, like slavery, presumes the right of one person to rule over another by virtue of some fabled moral superiority. In this case, it isn't the labor of one person being expropriated, but the natural resources of an entire nation. Again, the system is hierarchical. Therefore, it is right wing.

Now, a sober conservative doesn't necessarily believe in a right wing ideology. He may simply believe in relatively less government and show more reluctance to raise taxes than a moderate liberal.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. Traditional political spectrum appears moot.
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 08:06 AM by RUSTY SHACKLEFORD
First, bear in mind that defining the left-right spectrum as I do is much more conventional.

I stated as much in the original post I authored that began this thread. I realize that my postion is contrary to the given norm. But then, I've never been one to take what I'm told as correct at face value.


Most people would understand Nazi Germany as a right wing state, as I would. It was racist and hierarchical; hence, right wing. However, since it was totalitarian, you would define it as left wing.

Yes, sort of. I do know that the Nazi party began as a socialist party, and that socialism is traditionally considered left wing. Then it evolved into totalitarianism, which by what I've defined thus far would be extremist left wing. I further believe the totalitarian wing of the spectrum could be further subdivided by heirarchal and non-heirarchal platforms as you suggest. Regardless of whether we are discussing egalitarian or non-egalitarian authoritarianism, benevolent or malevolent dictatorships, or hierarchal or non-hierarchal monocracies, it doesn't make any difference to me. These are all extremist governments established to control and subvert a group or groups of people.


Do you consider anarchy to be the pure right wing philosophy? How do you explain Noam Chomsky and Emma Goldman? They are usually considered left wing; they are both anarchists.

By the way I've defined the political spectrum, yes, they would be placed on the right wing. I'd call them egalitarian anarchists. How do you explain libertarian philosophy being placed to the political right of conservativism? Do you consider libertarians to be less egalitarian that just regular conservatives? That would make no sense to me.

My position is that an individual can hold conventional politically conservative beliefs and not be contrary to egalitarian philosophy.

I agree with that. That could be the whole key. Being for equality says nothing about one's stand on legalizing drugs or on abortion. It merely says that one person has as much say in it as the next.

Now, a sober conservative doesn't necessarily believe in a right wing ideology. He may simply believe in relatively less government and show more reluctance to raise taxes than a moderate liberal.


That seems to be a bit of a paradox, don't you agree? Egalitarian right wingers? Sort of makes the concept of the traditional political spectrum a moot issue.

If I were using the concept of egalitarianism to base my left-right specrtum upon, I'd place it (true egalitarianism) squarely in the center. If one believed in increased government to regulate class-ism, I'd call them leftists. If one believed in increased government to de-regulated class-ism, I'd call them rightwingers. Either way, this would be an entirely different spectrum than I feel we are discussing. Interesting, but different.

The whole point I'm trying to make is that, yes, you can base a political spectrum on the philosophy of egalitarianism, just the same you could base it on the concept of, say, how much people like or dislike vanilla ice cream. We all know that everyone except communists likes vanilla ice cream. It doesn't necessarily make sense to do so though. You could have an egalitarian Nazi come along, and then the whole paradigm would have to be shifted, wouldn't it?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #117
118. Again, you are confusing 'conservative' with 'right wing'
Egalitarian right winger is an oxymoron. However, a conservative isn't necessarily a racist or a religionist. Conventionally, while it would be improper to call Nazi Germany a leftist regime, it would be just as improper to call it a conservative one. Conservatism speaks mostly to issues of the economy, respect for law, etc.

In those respects (and you might agree with this), I have more reason to call myself a conservative than do most members of the Bush junta. For example, I believe that a good fiscal policy is like a good conservation policy: no one should take from the system faster than it can be renewed. I would describe myself as a fiscal conservative. I'm as against a reckless tax-and-spend approach to government spending as Warren Rudman.

Conservative is the most abused word in the modern American political lexicon. George Will is a conservative; Ann Coulter is not. Gerald Ford is a conservative; Jesse Helms is not. John McCain is a conservative; Tom DeLay is not. The conservatives, while they may not be radical egalitarians, past muster as far that goes. They believe that when elections are held, each citizen should have one vote, no more or no less; they respect another person's right to hold views different from their own. While I have issues with the stands these people take on certain issues, it is still possible to hold a dialog with them. It's the difference between conservative William F. Buckley, who treated his guests with differing viewpoints with respect and allowed them speak before he tore them apart with barbed questions, and right wing Bill O'Reilly, whose response to those who don't agree with him is "Shut up! Cut his mike!" One didn't have to agree with Buckley to learn something from his presentation. Looking back, Buckley did a true service in the cause of promoting political discourse among Americans. For that, I express my appreciation of him.

One should hope that true conservatives will find a way divorce themselves from the far right. They don't really have that much in common. Bill Clinton represented conservatism better than does Bush. Four years ago, I voted for Nader because I didn't think Clinton (and, by extension, Gore) was on the right path about issues of trade the the roll of corporate power in public affairs. This year, I'm voting for Kerry, although I probably don't like him as much as I liked Gore. The point is that Bush -- with his phony colonial war justified by lies, his support of the Patriot Act, his use of the tax system to transfer wealth from the bottom up and his policy of giving a pass to corporate crime -- must go. He is unaccountable and believes he is entitled to be above accountability. That is beyond anything the most conservative of our founding fathers (I suppose that would be Hamilton) envisioned; never mind that it is alien to the principles of Jeffersonian democracy.

I'm not saying that either of us will vote to re-elect Kerry four years from now, or even for the same candidate four years from now. Nevertheless, we should vote for Kerry this time. If President Kerry does nothing else to please either of us, if he can create an environment that promotes discourse and puts an end to any serious discussion about whether either the President or cabinet members should have the right to strip an American of his citizenship, then it will be a worthwhile vote.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #118
120. I can't find anything in that to disagree with :)
How am I supposed to get anything out of these discussions and improve my critical thinking skills with you typing stuff I agree with?

;)


Thanks for the discussion, though. It was interesting!
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
85. Because they believe in Force, not Reason
The Left believes that the solution to problems can be found through the application of Reason. The right-wing believes that it's found through the application of force.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
86. I think you have the polarity reversed.
<<"Neocons advocate vigorous government interference in the areas of <<traditional morality (Chistian fundamentalism), pro-business <<policies, and foreign affairs."

From my point of view, these issues (your quote from above) have always been at the basis of the republican party, and especially, the conservatives.

The "left" is more likely to advocate controls on business to keep them from polluting, clear cutting, from maintaining an unsafe workplace, from discriminating against employees .... etc. This is hardly "pro business" Democrats see a difference between the economy and the stock market, or capitalism and democracy. In short, democrats view it as "the rights of capitalists and corporations vs the rights of humans and the environment. Democrats also tend to believe that business have social responsibility to the communities where they profit, and to the individuals they employ, and to the country in which they originate. Democrats want "humanize" capitalism so it is not so brutal.

Republicans tend to believe that the economy = the stock market, capitalism = democracy, liberty = capitalism, no controls on economics, no taxes, no social responsibility,etc. Republicans feel that the best way to govern is through the legislation of morality. Some of their pet moral issues are abortion, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, and so on.

You may have been a democrat your entire life and are just now coming to terms with it. Perhaps you are a budget conservative who dislikes the social programs that democrats typically advocate.

Well, how about corporate welfare? Now that is certainly a bush, Conservative republican initiative.
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PeeWeeTheMadman Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
90. I disagree
I don`t think that the political scales are linear. Anarchism is extrem left, because no system i more egalitarian than a primitive society without any laws whatsoever. If you go back into history, there existed no property rights and no rule of law. both these are social constructions that man have gotten used to down thru the centuries. Actually, I wouldn`t neccesarily consider some government interventions like welfare interventions, but rather compensations. They compensate for the scewed social structure that individual property rights and the rule of law has created.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
96. They are pro religion and anti-democracy
Since support for organized religion and monarchy are historically the two core right-wing values I thinks RW is a fair characterization.

Goldwater conservatism is a special American thing that's somewhat out of step with regular European monarchist and proto-fascist thought. The neo-cons are arguably much more right-wing than Reagan and, to my way of thinking, scarier than Reagan.

The neos are atheists who favor theocratic rule because it's a good way to keep societies in line; a good source of 'identity.'

They're just nazis.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
99. neo-cons really shouldn't be called anything other than...
...opportunists. They wet their collective finger and raise it to test the prevailing winds (of the unconscious masses) and exploit their findings to maximum effect.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #99
103. Actually, I like using the term "traitor" to describe NeoCons.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-22-04 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
100. Perhaps because ALL of your political leaders are in lock-step with them?
Or is it the social safety net busting and self-righteous fascism. It's hard to decide.
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Am I to apologize for "my political leaders"?
I don't think so. I'm voting for Kerry.

But I didn't leave the Republican party.


It left me.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #102
108. No. You asked why we think neocons are Republicans
It's because people who call themselves Republicans support them with all their heart and soul. Seems to me that gives us the perception that they agree with them, no?
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RUSTY SHACKLEFORD Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. "asked why we think neocons are Republicans"
I don't want to be rude, but you didn't properly understand the title of this thread. Apparently, you misread it.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
104. A single axis or even dual axis definitions are too simple
I would suggest a book, Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope for a more clear understanding of what is going on and political definitions.

From page 33 of the book there are six aspects to society: military, political, economic, social, religious and intellectual. To define accurately what is going on would need to define each aspect of the above to accurately understand events.

Now within this same chapter in the book a definition of each of the economic systems used by 'western' civilization over time gives a understanding of what economic system the extreme 'right' wants to take civilization.

From page 38 in the book:
Manorial

Commercial Capitalism

Industrial Capitalism

Financial Capitalism

Monopoly Capitalism

Pluralist Economy

Based on the above definitions we can see, the 'right' wing wants to take us from FDR's new deal economy of Pluralistic Economy to a previous system of Monopoly/Financial Capitalism.

We could wonder why FDR and society at that time decided Monopoly/Financial Capitalism was not the 'best' economic system to organize society around. The answer to this question would be to look at how the 2 class system (poor and wealthy) compares to a 3 class system (poor, middle and wealthy). The economic system of that time created instabilities in the social system to the point of riots and threats from elements of nihilism and anarchy. The 3 class system produces a far more stable and equitable system for all.

And the 'right' wing wants to take us back? This is not evolution or advancement, its regressive devolution at its worst.

There are no simple definitions to understanding. It takes a lot of research to understand the 'forces' shaping events today.

I would suggest getting the book and studying.
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69KV Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Tragedy and Hope
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 11:22 AM by 69KV
I have never read Quigley's book but I keep seeing it mentioned. It may be time for me to track down a copy and read it.

My own political "bible", if you will, that I use as a starting point and keep coming back to, is The Vital Center: The Politics of Freedom by Arthur Schlesinger Jr. It's an old book from 1949 that has the best explanation I've seen of totalitarianism, the left, and the right. Unlike the original poster I don't believe totalitarianism is only on the left. It can be found on either extreme. There are important differences between left-wing totalitarianism and right-wing totalitarianism, but what they have most in common is their excessive distance from the political center, which always leads to dogmatism, and "ends justifies the means" mentality, and "true believer" syndrome. The closer to the center you get, the more the threat of totalitarianism goes away.

With that in mind and looking at today's situation, it becomes clear that the Neo-Cons and PNAC and Bush are not anywhere near the center like they claim. They're closer to the totalitarianism of the extreme right, today's equivalent of the European Nazis and Fascists of the 1930s and 1940s.

Don't let the title fool you either. The Vital Center makes a strong case for social democracy (in Europe) and the New Deal (in the U.S.) as the vital center, not a case for what gets passed off today as the "center", i.e. Blair's "Third Way". But don't expect Schlesinger's social democracy leanings to mean any kind of sympathy for far-left totalitarianism, he was a staunch opponent of Soviet type communism. Keep in mind when the book was written, 1949, as it reflects some of the conventional wisdom and prejudices of the day - especially its dismissal of antiwar views and pacifism. Read with a critical eye and disagree with some of his side points, but his main thesis is very valid and still holds true today.

I'll have to check out Quigley's book too now that you've brought it up
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. The Vital Center: The Politics of Freedom by Arthur Schlesinger Jr
I have just ordered this book from Amazon. Tragedy and Hope can be obtained from Amazon also.

69KV, may I place you SN on my buddies list, so that we can exchange ideas on these 2 books?

These times we live in are very complex. There are changes coming, technology is on the edge of something truly dramatic, IMO. Understanding history can help to ease the transition to what I hope can be a better time for our children and their children.

The 20th century has been the most bloody century in history. I hope and wish that with understanding, people can make the 21st century far better than it is starting out.
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69KV Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. Hi
Edited on Fri Jul-23-04 12:13 PM by 69KV
Sure go ahead, I'm not quite sure what the buddies list involves, I take it you just click on the "add to buddy list" icon?

I will check local bookstores and if they don't have it, will have Tragedy & Hope on order shortly. I read a while back that Pres. Clinton held the book and the author in high regard, I have also seen it cited, ironically enough, by the right wing as evidence of a liberal "conspiracy." I don't remember off hand but I believe Clinton may have studied under Carroll Quigley at Oxford.

Edit: I just got an error trying to use the buddies list since I'm not a donor yet. I'll have to fix that soon..
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. LaRouche and company cite Quigley
as proof of a vast conspiracy among the financial 'elite'. I do think there is a 'conspiracy' of these 'elite' to dominate governments via corporatism, but LaRouche himself is not the rallying point to follow.

BTW, although LaRouche started out recruiting lefties, his organization morphed into extreme right ideologues. Strange how idealogues in one polar extreme can transition so easily to the opposite polar extreme. The extremism itself is the commonality of a human personality type that places emphasis on an ideology rather than adverse human conditions and solutions to those conditions.

Your observation of totalitarianism in both extremes is spot-on I think. Think of the despotism of the 'majority community' on one extreme versus the despotism of the 'state nationalism' used by the other.

But real solutions are in the understanding of complex systems, not jingoism. There is nothing, IMO, more complex than human organization/culture. A system approach is necessary.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
116. Just a kick - everybody should read this thread at some point
Excellent read.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
121. Busheviks follow the New Totalitarianism of Managed Democracy
Just as Comrade Putin is using in the Soviet Union without the snazzy production values we expect here in Imperial Amerika.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
124. Because Neocons ARE Conservatives, sans window dressing.
The conservative movement has always been about centralized power, aggressive foreign policy, and heavy funding of the military industrial complex.

It's always been a shell game fueled by the support of countless ignorant, middle class Republicans who like the sound of "smaller government", without really knowing what it means. "Smaller government" means your local school gets less money, and Lockheed gets more. It means soldiers get less money, and Halliburton gets more. It means you get less, and you pay more- your money, your children, your health.

Sorry, but Neocons are most certainly conservatives. They're just don't bother to hide it.
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