Three years ago, I could not think that either LIHOP or MIHOP

[Veggie Meathead]

was a credible explanation for 9/11.The biggest barrier to my assigning blame to Bush and his cabal was the idea that no American President would wantonly cause the deaths of Americans to forward his agenda.When the Abu Ghraib pictures were first revealed, my belief in the President as the protector of the American people was shattered.While the pictures were revolting enough,the inability of this administration to even acknowledge that these were crimes committed with their full knowledge and participation were the last straws that broke this camel's back.

The further revelations by Sy Hersh that children have been sodomized in front of their parents, wives have been sodimized in front of the husbands and other children and husbands have been sodomized in front of their wives, makes me ashamed that we are spectators to an administration run amok and looking on helplessly.Now I am firmly convinced that the WTC towers fell on 9/11 by design, either LIHOP or MIHOP.I do not need physical proof.Like Mr.Bush's claim of "his gut instinct",my gut instinct now firmly favors either of these possibilities.

Anyone who wantonly sodomizes children is beneath contempt.

[maggrwaggr]

1. I'm with you

I was totally behind the US response to 9/11. Up until we dropped the ball and did not actually put massive ground forces in Afghanistan to go after the guys in the mountains.

They just sorta .... let the whole thing go and then started talking about Iraq.

IRAQ? WHAT?

That's where they lost me. THEN I started doing my homework.

And THEN .... holy moly, when you start actually looking into 9/11 it stinks to high heaven.

I now hate George Bush and his cabal more than I've probably ever hated anyone. They are all gangsters and enemies of the state, enemies of the American people.

There's plenty of "proof" out there.

[shadu]

2. I'm with you.

The GWB years have been sad beyond belief.
I am so tired of being sad.

[Veggie Meathead]

5. Sad does not fully convey the pain they have inflicted on all of us

who play by the rules and believe in the sanctity of our Constitution.
As is my wont, I went back to William Shirer's RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH for the umpteenth time to see if our crimes fall short of the barbarism of the Nazis.I am saddened to say that we are no better than them.In an epilog to his classic before his death,Bill Shirer stated that he did not think that Germany would ever again descend into barbarism but he was not sure about America because of the type of mendacity and toadyism he witnessed during the Vietnam War years in Washington, D.C.One weeps for our country because it does not have time to listen to wise men like Byrd, Chomsky,Krugman and Hersh.

[tom_paine]

7. I agree. What clincherd LIHOP was the Clarke/Rice testimony

One, so laser specific with dates, times, etc.

The other just a babble of nonpsecificity and non sequitur.

I suspected almost from the first, once the hurt stopped and my wits cleared from the shock and horror (damn it, and doesn't it just seem like they DEPENDED on that, that their friend the Right-Wing Anthrax Assassin punctuated the insecurity to keep us off balance longer?).

And when I saw the unPATRIOT Act unveiled.

Well how could anyone who knows ANYTHING about history fail to see the Reichstag Fire/Enabling Acts similarity?

But I wasn't sure until Rice vs. Clark and, yes, the Authorized from the Top Torture.

Oh, they did it, alright..or purposefully sat back and let it happen.

[bobthedrummer]

32. I concur-it was LIHOP at a minimum. The response of USAF and NORAD

suggests MIHOP to me, as well as the anthrax attacks-but I'm firmly in the LIHOP camp. Law enforcement was shut down whenever it investigated the alleged hijackers, their funding, the flight schools, etc.

I also know I was taught some real history.

[mopaul]

3. been there since jetliner 2 into tower 2

glad you've at least allowed it to inhabit your mind as a possibility.

whenever you hear about a guy killing someone, his mother or friend will always say, 'i know my son/friend, and he simply could not murder anyone, believe me'. sadly, it's often hard to believe things that are simply too painful to believe.

[Veggie Meathead]

6. It is too painful to believe that an American President could,by

omission or commission,cause the deaths of innocent Americans and foreign civilians to further an agenda.What is even more painful is that this country, so rich in human resources of ingenuity and compassion and so capable of doing good, has been robbed by small minded thugs,of reaching the kind of lasting greatness that I firmly believe we are capable of.

[Kanary]

13. Our compassion had already been compromised

Just read some of the posts about poor folks, and you'll see it right in our midst.

It's enough to make a person want to hide under a rock.

Kanary

[Unperson 309]

29. As A Bumpersticker Says "Bush hijacked our grief and flew it into IRAQ!"

So fucking TRUE!

309

[bpilgrim]

4. these WAR CRIMMINAL traitors are GUILTY in the eyes of the WORLD COURT!

NO ONE TRUST US after 3 1/2 years of TERROR!

what happened to WTC7?
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

no plane flew into it yet it fell in its own footprint hours after the other 2, wtf?

why don't we see these images on the teeVee?

i hear ya :hi:

psst... pass the word

peace

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. I'll match your video of WTC 7

with the one of WTC6 blowing up, willing 1 & 2 are still standing.




How did that happen?

[DrWeird]

14. Funny...

I only see one tower in that video, and what looks like the other tower collapsing behind it.

But you get an A for creativity.

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. There is a very large explosion

on the lower/middle left side of the video. This is the location of WTC 6 which was totally destroyed.

The two towers are still standing at this point.

[DrWeird]

17. I see a large plume of dust.

But I'd guess it's coming from the tower that's collapsing behind the one that's in view.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Look again, the towers haven't started to collapse

They both are still standing and the explosion is in the foreground, it is not behind the towers. Here's a close-up of WTC 6. According to the official story this building was destroyed because it was hit by rubble from the collapse of the North Tower.





edit: Those are two very large craters/holes. Please explain how a building collapsing on top of another building would create such large holes in the centers?

[DoYouEverWonder]

26. My mistake, I see what looks like two towers

is actually the edge of the visible tower. It seems that the angle is showing two faces of the the same building.

It is hard to tell what state the 2nd tower is in at that point.

However, the large plum/explosion is only in the foreground. When the towers collapsed the plumes of smoke went in all directions.

I still don't think the large plum of smoke, that we are seeing in this shot, is from the 1st tower when it collapsed and I still would like to know how such large holes were created in the middle of WTC 6, leaving the exterior walls still standing. I would expect the wall closest to the towers would have collapsed has well?

[wicket]

8. Same here

:(

[depakid]

9. Farenheit 9-11 pushed me solidly into the LIHOP camp

I'd always been suspicious, given the statements made by PNAC folks about a "Pearl Harbor" and the fact that they completely disregarded Hart-Rudman. I just figured that the administration was grossly negligent and theat Bush himself was derelict in his duties.

Now, I'm pretty damn certain that they knew something was up and they wanted it to happen- and they needed it to happen to carry out their agenda. I think that they "misunderestimated" Al Qaeda's capabilities- and didn't expect an attack of this magnitude, but they knew. And they let it happen. One day I think someone will sing- and when they do, I hope that each and every one of those bastards goes to prison.

[DrWeird]

11. Me either.

But only because three years ago 9-11 hadn't happened yet.

[Kanary]

12. The more human and sensitive you are, the harder it is to come to terms

with this reality.

I went through this very thing with Vietnam, not being able to grasp just how "bad" my country could be.

It still hits me, though, because it's so inconceivable.

Be kind to yourself, because this is a shock, and takes time to work through.

:hug:

Kanary

[Minstrel Boy]

19. Very true. It's a sick-making conclusion to make,

that the world has gone this wrong. I didn't want to believe that there could be such calculating monsters. But, well, there they are.

The evidence had to drag me kicking and screaming, and I'm a grassy knoller from way back.

A couple of music videos by Clarity that seem appropriate here:

"Buddy Buddy"
http://www.ericblumrich.com/buddy.html
"Do the math"

"Steal"
http://guerrillanews.com/clarity/
"Cuz there's a war on for your mind"

[Deja Q]

15. I'd hate to know what isn't being said...

I'm already livid four years into the stupid stinking offal* as President...

[walldude]

18. Semi-n00b needs LIHOP and MIHOP info

What do they stand for? Sorry just haven't seen those terms before...

[Mel]

22. they stand for

LIHOP-Let it happen on purpose

MIHOP-Made it happen on purpose

Hope this helps.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. here ya go:

LIHOP: Let It Happen On Purpose
MIHOP: Made It Happen On Purpose

Here's a link to a compendium of a very few of the threads here that have critically examined 9/11:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1836172#

[hansolsen]

28. LIHOP is possible; MIHOP is out of the question. If Shrub set out to

knock down the towers, one thing we now know for sure is this -- those towers would still be standing.

[Cleita]

21. When I first came to DU, I read the LIHOP and MIHOP threads

with reservations. I did firmly believe even then though that they dropped the ball on security. There was evidence that funding for whatever security Clinton had instituted to prevent terrorist attacks during the millenium had been cut back.

There was the blatant ignoring of the proposed Hart/Rudman Act, which President Clinton passed on to the Bush administration and apparently no one looked at it. There were many hints of negligence and then there was the increasing secretiveness of this administration where good journalists were shut off from information and many of them cut out altogether. But even then I couldn't quite wrap my mind around it.

Three years later I will believe these asses are capable of anything. Getting the proof and getting them exposed and indicted is what matters now. I have no doubt in my mind now that they are responsible for far more than negligence.

[walldude]

24. Thanks...

I hate to say it but It wasn't long after 9/11 that I thought something was fishy. It was mostly the Pentagon crash(never could see any plane wreakage in any photos) and the fact that the towers crashed straight to the ground that drew my suspicion.. Now I'm like this huge conspiracy nut...

[Djinn]

25. I still don't really know what I think about 9/11

but for me there was absolutely NEVER a doubt that a President (or PM, or King or whatever) could and would deliberately cause the deaths of his/her own citizens to further a political agenda.

[MrsMatt]

27. I tend to fall in the

incompetant/opportunist camp, rather than LIHOP or MIHOP.

I believe that the gross incompetancies of this administration was the "cause" , if you will, of the 9/11 tragedy. Once that occured, the situation provided the opportunity for their agenda to be advanced significantly.

I guess I just can't quite get my mind to accept the unspeakable evil that would have to permeate the souls of those in the current administraion for LIHOP or MIHOP.

For all our sakes, I hope I'm right, although I fear I'm not.

[Doctor_J]

30. Part of what is holding * up...

is that the truth of the matter (LIHOP) is so depraved that people can't bring themselves to believe it, regardless of the mountains of evidence. It's a superset of the people who believe that the lying, hypocritical, mean, ignorant, sadistic sociopath in the white house actually gets his marching orders from god.

[RandomKoolzip]

31. People talk about LIHOP/MIHOP as if it's some huge leap

into the void of despair to even suggest that the upper echelon of the US Government killed or allowed to be killed thousands of its own citizens. I've never had that problem. I've been reading about the CIA's involvement in nefarious doings around the world since I was a little kid. I know that the Gulf of Tonkin was a hoax. Hasn't anyone ever read ANYTHING about the Kennedy Assassination before? Your Government will kill you if you stand in the way of making a profit. Deal with it.