Are you 100% convinced Bin Laden did it?

[eeyore]

Okay, hear me out. I have no tinfoil hat theory here, but I'm really wondering about this.

The release of the 9/11 report got me thinking back to what exactly has led the world to the absolute conclusion that it was Bin Laden orchestrated an attack on America.

Are you 100% sure he's the one? If so, what is it that convinced you?

Who told us that he was the one?

As I recall tapes were released of him claiming responsibility. Is that what did it? If so, isn't it possible for a group/individual with political motives would love to claim ownership over an attack on their stated enemy?

Are we just trusting what the intelligence organizations have told us?

Are we just trusting what * told us?

What the media has told us?

I have no actual other theories, but he was pretty much tried and convicted within hours of the attack by the entire world.

What makes us all so sure?

<putting on my flame retardant suit>
-eeyore

[bossfish]

1. No...

I am not absolutely convinced...

[JustSwell]

27. Umm....

....what about the videos of him claiming resposibility, bragging no less....


...fakes?

[Sterling]

83. Fat Osama or Skinny Osama?

The man in the video you speak of is "Fat Osama" who is not to be confused with the skinny Osama that appeared in the previous videos or the ones that came after that one.


Maybe some one could be kind enough to post the photos side by side? It has been done here about a hundred times and it always has the effect of ending the speculation that Osama admitted he was involved in 9-11.

Even fat Osama does not actually claim responsibilty. He merely says the attacks were more destructive than he would have imagined. I too feel that way. Was I involved in 9-11 as well? I do live in NY?

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

180. Well I hope you follow your gut with some research

People here are not going on their cut or some apperition. The facts are very disturding. Plz hang out and leanr about the topic before you form an opinion.

[homelandpunk]

221. You're not gonna believe this!! But it's true!!!

Clinton's cock is coming your way!! The mighty Clenis has you in it's sights!! Run, uninformed li'l freepie, run!!!!

[mom cat]

171. Hi! and welcome to DU.

:hi:

[homelandpunk]

217. YES FAKES!!!

It's some OTHER guy. Look at the damn phots side by side. It's just some guy with a beard and the white thing on his head that looks the same. Well, no. The beard is not even the same. JESUS!

[maveric]

2. No!

I refuse to totally beleive that just because bu$h told me so.

[2Design]

3. no ....actually bushCo did it....

they made bin laden the fall guy....this is why they flew his family out of the country....his dad meet with saudi night before and bush after...

they are protecting those who helped them pull off the biggest crime in the world....

[gratuitous]

4. I don't know but I've been told

It was Osama who was so bold
I don't know but it's been said
That he's the one who made them dead

Seriously, I'm aware that the administration claims Osama took responsibility for the attacks on one of the tapes it has, but I haven't seen independent verfication of that assertion. I have seen independent translators and news outlets talk about bin Laden reacting positively to the September 11 attacks, but I haven't seen any independent corroboration of the assertion that he was involved or masterminded it.

[TNOE]

5. Hell No

Like a guy in a cave can completely shut down EVERY system, yea right. NOT. A real no-brainer.

We are to believe after $13 TRILLION on defense - we couldn't get one of those planes within an hour. P-L-E-A-S-E. God I hate it that Americans are so stupid as to have fallen for this whole farce.

We are to believe that an FBI agent LIVING WITH 2 of the hi-jackers had NO CLUE??

We are to believe that the reports Ashcroft has "classified" are really classified due to "national security"?

We are to believe that Bush* had 'NO INKLING' when there was an August 6 briefing titled "Bin Laden to Strike".

We are to beleive that Bush* had "NO INKLING" when 17 other countries warned them that a terrorist strike was imminent?

We are to believe that Bush* did his job after he sat for AT LEAST 7 minutes and did nothing, then bunny-hopped all over the country?

Edited to Add:

We are to believe that Bush* even gave a damn after having gone on vacation for a month after having received the warnings?

[hughee99]

51. If Bin Laden didn't do it...

Then it doesn't really matter that the FBI agent was living with 2 of the hijackers and had no idea, because they wouldn't have been the real hijackers and the August 6 "Bin Laden to Strike" briefing is irrelavant because this wouldn't have been an Al-Queda strike.

When 17 other countries warned of a terrorist attack, if they were referring to Al-Queda, than that also would have been irrelavant, though it would still be relevant if they were not referring specifically to Al-Queda.

Though all of these ARE relevant if you believe that Al-Queda did do it, and * LIHOP.

As for myself, I'm not sure if was Bin Laden or not, but I am definately not willing to rule out his involvement at some level.

[TNOE]

57. Its a very big picture puzzle

and all the pieces of evidence fit very nicely once its all put together.

If you realize that the CIA created, trained and armed Bin laden when he was OUR GUY fighting against the Russians in Afghanistan and and that Al'Queda was more Al CIA duh, then it makes it more understandable.

[hughee99]

61. So you're saying that Al-CIA

is responsible? I don't doubt that Bin Laden had some sponsor helping him out, whether it was the CIA, or a foreign entity, but even he was working for the CIA, wouldn't he still be responsible for carrying out the plan? I was taking the question of the thread to be "do you think that Bin Laden was involved", not "was he the ultimately responsible top dog".

[TNOE]

64. Well the way I see it

is Bin laden was the perfect patsy - who if I am NOT mistaking totally denied being involved with 9/11 - I can possibly find the link to that, although not right now. Maybe someone else has it.

However, this HAD to have been a military operation - coming from the HIGHEST levels, or it would have/could have NEVER been pulled off - especially considering there had not been a hijacking in this country for 12-14 years - why? Because it was STANDARD PROCEDURE for fighter jets to fly up to any and all "suspicious" aircraft that was either hijacked purposefully or was not responding due to mechanical error of some type.

Here's some info if you're interested:


http://www.mycountryrightorwrong.net/mcrow2.htm

http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/September11.html

http://www.bushoccupation.com/

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/pieces.htm

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/end_justifies_means.html

http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article.php?aid=670727528

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm

http://www.freefromterror.net/

[Sterling]

85. He is the spokesperson.

The front man, not needed in operational matters. All he has to do is keep making videos saying how much he hates America. Helping Bush start this war helped his family.

[stavka]

134. ...yep. Read Scott Coll's "Ghost Wars"

He's like the investment banker of Islamic extremism, their Ross Perot.

He gets the street cred for other's actions.

[Sterling]

197. But he's our guy.

And his street cred is what attracted us to him in the fiorst place, remember? He's our guy on the inside of that world.

[stavka]

258. Not really our guy.

Actually he's more Pakistan's guy, the US had very little if anything to do with his activity against the Soviets, we were just on the same side.

And the intell community has been talking about killing/capturing him since the about 1998.

Massoud was our guy - and the Taliban whacked him right before 9/11

[Pastiche423]

6. NO!

We, the American people, have not been given one shred of evidence that it was OBL.

Hell, I'm still waiting on the white paper Powell promised to give shortly after 9/11.

[TahitiNut]

88. Nope. It was obviously Richard Jewell who did it.

:dunce:

[Bucky]

151. Isn't that the guy who attacked the Olympics in Atlanta w/a car bomb?

Thank God we had John Ashcroft on the job to stop Islamic extremists like that Jewell liberal.

[TahitiNut]

172. He was a part-time(?) security guard working at the Atlanta Olympics.

He alerted people to a knapsack containing explosives. (He saved lives.) The FBI targeted him as a suspect for over 6 months in the bombs that went off, killing one or two and maiming several others. Then, when Eric Rudolph bombed a health clinic and another place, it finally became clear to the FBI that Eric Rudolph was also the Olympic Park bomber. They matched the materials used. They also found a match to a prior bombing. Richard Jewell was finally exonerated -- but really never given his due.

Nowadays, of course, we'd have to declare war on someone bomb and invade some country. :eyes:

[eeyore]

7. Okay, so I'm not completely alone

But I can't go 100% with a MIHOP theory either. My guess is that we'll never know, and that history will just record what we've been told.

[quispquake]

8. Definitely NOT 100% convinced...

I remember Brokaw saying "Osama Bin Laden" within an hour of the towers falling...I thought then that this was WAY too quick to know who did it...

[eeyore]

15. It was the miraculous passport that got me going...

How the hell did an alleged hijacker's paper passport not only survive the explosion but amazingly land intact at the foot of the wreckage? And who told us that this proves who did it?

[WoodrowFan]

28. thats a tinfoil myth

that's myth, like the fireman who 'surfed' wreakage and survived the tower's fall. sheesh.

[pschoeb]

58. Are you Sure

so this CNN story is bogus? do you have a legitimate source that says all these journalists, Police Commissioner, and FBI agent goofed big time?

In New York, several blocks from the ruins of the World Trade Center, a passport authorities said belonged to one of the hijackers was discovered a few days ago, according to city Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. That has prompted the FBI and police to widen the search area beyond the immediate crash site. A second person whom authorities were seeking as a material witness in the attacks was arrested Saturday and held in FBI custody in New York, a Justice Department official said.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.america.under.attack/

and this story
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.investigation.terrorism/index.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1546927.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,669961,00.html

or this story

NEW YORK (AP)- The passport of a suspected hijacker was discovered near the ruins of the World Trade Center, authorities said Saturday as exhausted rescue workers clawed through the wreckage, searching unsuccessfully for signs of life.

FBI Assistant Director Barry Mawn did not disclose the name on the passport or other details, but the discovery prompted an intensive search for evidence blocks from the towers that were brought down in Tuesday's terrorist attacks by two hijacked planes.

The find came as financial experts declared nearby Wall Street ready for at least a semblance of business Monday. Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said a new ferry service carrying passengers between Brooklyn and Manhattan would help workers get to their offices.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Sep-16-Sun-2001/news/17011253.html

or this story

The FBI has been conducting a block-by-block "grid search" through devastated lower Manhattan, looking for the voice and flight data recorders of the two aircraft flown into the twin towers.

Investigators discovered the passport of Satam al Suqami, one of the terrorists aboard American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane to hit the World Trade Center.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_recovery_010916.html

[Sterling]

87. Thx I thought someone would beat me to it.

It was certainly put out there so we could belive they knew it was OBL but it failed and almost cost them the whole game. That was around the same time the put options were being discussed before the anthrax.

[JSJ]

229. like spectre's magic bullet? n/t

[Sterling]

86. Yes it was a lie but not a myth.

It was put in play by the government, I have a hard copy of the story. If need be I will dig it up. It was reported on CNN as well as ABC.

It was obsurd and people got suspicious so the dropped it. It was not Atta's passport btw. That is the myth part I guess. It was another of teh alledged hijackers.

[Solomon]

9. Nope. And the tape was a fraud. That wasn't Bin Laden on that

tape. I don't believe any of it. Never did. Never will.

[PaDUer]

78. Remember when * went to

Hollywood way back when...what did he really go there for? I highly doubt it was to get his daughter her internship...Gee, and not that long after, all hell broke out in a few states.

[Must_B_Free]

236. * went to Hollywood?

He was probably just pretending to be George Vreeland Hill

[Guaranteed]

It sounded like he admitted to it at one point.

Other than that, I haven't seen any evidence that he did ANYTHING, including the bombings of the Cole and the African embassies.

[bobbieinok]

10. didn't Colin and others right after 911 say they would show proof

to the world ...... and they never did????

early warning something fishy........along with W sitting for so long and no planes sent after the attack planes

my reaction ..... 1st shock and follow TV reports...... and within a day, 3 BIG QUESTIONS about what is going on here?????????????

[TrustingDog]

24. Afghanistan was just as stinking a home invasion...

as Iraq.

[NecessaryOnslaught]

234. Yep

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1562751.stm

[porphyrian]

11. I don't think I'm 100% anything... - n/t

[rocktivity]

12. I myself never heard the name bin laden until after 9/11

And I heard it from George Bush--the attack "had his fingerprints all over it." I took his word for it until I learned that the CIA had trained him, and that Bush's family and his have been longtime business partners. Three years, the imfamous "fat Osama" video and an escape from Tora Bora later, we still only have Georgie's word for it--along with a war with Viet Nam's fingerprints all over it.



:headbang:
rocknation

[WoodrowFan]

26. oh well.

you never heard of him before 9/11!?!?!?!?!?!. Did you pay ANY attention to the news before then? Clinton trying to hit him with cruise missiles/ the embassy bombings? the Cole? sheesh.

bye bye

[StandUpGuy]

136. Yes I herd something like that...

Wasn't that during the immoral sanctions Clinton continued?

Or was it when Clinton continued the No-fly zones that were never listed in any UN resolution or cease fire agreement.

To think that just because Clinton fired warning shots at OBL he must have committed 9/11 would be folly.

If Clinton had hit OBL or extradited him when he had the opportunity 9/11 would have been blamed on someone else.

Thats all.

[frankly_fedup2]

173. Your not paying attention or listening to too much Limbaugh . . .

Monsoor Igez is nothing but an investment banker. He is the one who "claims" he was doing negotiations for the U.S. (of course, our government was not aware of his negotiations for this country), to get the Sudanese Government to turn over OBL. He is a nobody who wants to be somebody and Sean Hannity made him a TV Personality because of his constant pounding of this on his show. Just like Hannity did with the WMD's. Since all the inaccuracies came about, Hannity no longer has Monsoor on.

I find it amazing how people hate Clinton so much for his private matters. And yes, he lied under oath about a PRIVATE MATTER that should have stayed private.

But you cannot say that President Clinton EVER did anything to put this Country in danger. He was always open with the American People and our Congress. He was not arrogant (at least not in front of the American People . . . whether he is behind closed doors is none of my business . . . just like what he did with Monica Lewinsky was none of our business. It was a matter for President Clinton, his family, and his God. Just like everyone else (if you believe in God), we all have to answer for our wrongs. I think George W. Bush is going to hold the line up for a while when that happens, don't you?

[StandUpGuy]

199. Another Dem drinks the kool aid

I hate Clinton for furthering the corporate elite foreign policy.

I could care less about a blow job.

I actually feel sorry for him if thats the best he could do.(yea yea flame away)


I don't just post RW talking points although I'm sure you wished that was the report about OBL and Clinton I was referring to but it wasn't.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/006800.html

[frankly_fedup2]

218. I truly was not flaming; however, if that is what you call flaming . . .

you need to get on some really UGLY political boards and you would have thought nothing of my post.

I just have never understood why people hate Clinton. In my opinion he was one of the greatest Presidents this country has ever had. Of course, the 100% Republicans hated the man before he even won the campaign.

I guess it is why those on the right cannot understand how Bush can be so disliked. Well, I could give my opinion, but it doesn't really matter what I think, right?

[StandUpGuy]

222. No its not right

I never said you were flaming me.

You were trying to discredit my Clinton attack.

Which you failed to do.

I was concerned that my referring to Monica as an unworthy supplier of the blow job was going to get me flamed.

I see that you no longer debate the original thesis. I appreciate that.

[theboss]

65. Well, if you never heard of him, it had to be a fake

I mean, seriously, start paying attention.

20 August, 1998

President Clinton's Speech on Terrorist Attacks

Good afternoon.

Today I ordered our armed forces to strike at terrorist-related facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan because of the imminent threat they presented to our national security.

I want to speak with you about the objective of this action and why it was necessary.

Our target was terror. Our mission was clear -- to strike at the network of radical groups affiliated with and funded by Osama bin Laden, perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today.

The groups associated with him come from diverse places, but share a hatred for democracy, a fanatical glorification of violence, and a horrible distortion of their religion to justify the murder of innocents.

They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against.

A few months ago, and again this week, bin Laden publicly vowed to wage a terrorist war against America, saying -- and I quote -- ``We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians. They are all targets.''

Their mission is murder. And their history is bloody.

In recent years, they killed American, Belgian and Pakistani peacekeepers in Somalia. They plotted to assassinate the president of Egypt and the Pope. They planned to bomb six United States 747s over the Pacific.

They bombed the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan. They gunned down German tourists in Egypt. The most recent terrorist events are fresh in our memory. Two weeks ago, 12 Americans and nearly 300 Kenyans and Tanzanians lost their lives. And another 5,000 were wounded when our embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam were bombed.

There is convincing information from our intelligence community that the bin Laden terrorist network was responsible for these bombings. Based on this information, we have high confidence that these bombings were planned, financed and carried out by the organization bin Laden leads.

America has battled terrorism for many years. Where possible, we've used law enforcement and diplomatic tools to wage the fight. The long arm of American law has reached out around the world and brought to trial those guilty of attacks in New York, in Virginia and in the Pacific.
We have quietly disrupted terrorist groups and foiled their plots. We have isolated countries that practice terrorism. We've worked to build an international coalition against terror. But there have been and will be times when law enforcement and diplomatic tools are simply not enough.
When our very national security is challenged and when we must take extraordinary steps to protect the safety of our citizens. With compelling evidence that the bin Laden network of terrorist groups was planning to mount further attacks against Americans and other freedom-loving people, I decided America must act.

And so this morning, based on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, I ordered our armed forces to take action to counter an immediate threat from the bin Laden network.

Earlier today, the United States carried out simultaneous strikes against terrorist facilities and infrastructure in Afghanistan. Our forces targeted one of the most active terrorist bases in the world. It contained key elements of the bin Laden network's infrastructure and has served as a training camp for literally thousands of terrorists from around the globe.
We have reason to believe that a gathering of key terrorist leaders was to take place there today, thus underscoring the urgency of our actions.

Our forces also attacked a factory in Sudan associated with the bin Laden network. The factory was involved in the production of materials for chemical weapons.

The United States does not take this action lightly. Afghanistan and Sudan have been warned for years to stop harboring and supporting these terrorist groups.

But countries that persistently host terrorists have no right to be safe havens. Let me express my gratitude to our intelligence and law enforcement agencies for their hard, good work. And let me express my pride in our armed forces, who carried out this mission while making every possible effort to minimize the loss of innocent lives.

I want you to understand, I want the world to understand that our actions today were not aimed against Islam, the faith of hundreds of millions of good, peace-loving people all around the world, including the United States. No religion condones the murder of innocent men, women and children. But our actions were aimed at fanatics and killers who wrap murder in the cloak of righteousness, and in so doing, profane the great religion in whose name they claim to act.

My fellow Americans, our battle against terrorism did not begin with the bombing of our embassies in Africa, nor will it end with today's strike.

It will require strength, courage and endurance. We will not yield to this threat. We will meet it no matter how long it may take. This will be a long, ongoing struggle between freedom and fanaticism, between the rule of law and terrorism.

We must be prepared to do all that we can for as long as we must. America is and will remain a target of terrorists precisely because we are leaders; because we act to advance peace, democracy and basic human values; because we're the most open society on earth; and because, as we have shown yet again, we take an uncompromising stand against terrorism.

But of this, I am also sure. The risks from inaction to America and the world would be far greater than action. For that would embolden our enemies, leaving their ability and their willingness to strike us intact.

In this case, we knew before our attack that these groups already had planned further actions against us and others.

I want to reiterate the United States wants peace, not conflict. We want to lift lives around the world, not take them. We have worked for peace in Bosnia, in Northern Ireland, in Haiti, in the Middle East and elsewhere.

But in this day, no campaign for peace can succeed without a determination to fight terrorism. Let our actions today send this message loud and clear: There are no expendable American targets.

There will be no sanctuary for terrorists. We will defend our people, our interests and our values. We will help people of all faiths, in all parts of the world, who want to live free of fear and violence.

We will persist and we will prevail.

Thank you, God bless you and may God bless our country.

[rocktivity]

72. Of COURSE I've heard of the pre-9/11 terror attacks

I just don't recall bin Laden being mentioned any more than any of the other suspects.

I'm certainly not saying that he isn't involved. I'm just saying that at this point we only have Bush's word for it--which isn't worth what it used to be.

:headbang:
rocknation

[StandUpGuy]

137. Well if Clinton .....

Come on !!! 9/11 and the subsequent cover up is a bi-partisan effort.

Don't be blinded by the left/right fight the US finds itself in when discussing Domestic policy.

Globally the US has a unified foreign policy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. Osama originally denied that he had anything to do with 911....

...until he realized that recruits were falling all over themselves to join his organization.

And then that bogus videotape surfaced that seemed to indicate that Osama was claiming responsibility. He discussed at length how they never expected the buildings to completely collapse. The only problem with the video is that the person who is supposed to be Osama doesn't even come close to looking like Osama in before and after photos.

Check Post #12...the man on the left is the one seen in the the video discussed above....the man on the right is the man we've seen in pictures/video BEFORE 911, and AFTER the bogus videotape surfaced.

Someone, or some group, has a vested interest in blaming Osama for 911.

Hmmmm.

I wonder who that could possibly be?

[goclark]

232. When you shed pounds does your nose get longer

and thinner? I can't recall my nose changing shape when I lost ten pounds.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. I am too MIHOP to believe that

[SaveElmer]

14. Bin Laden was primarily responsible

He was the master mind...I have no doubt. There were videotapes found afterwards with him discussing the attacks on the day they occurred.

However...there is no way he pulls this off without massive support...particularly from Saudi Arabia. And it is to the everlasting shame of the Bushies that they continue to maintain personal and financial ties with those thugs.

[eeyore]

21. Where did the tapes come from?

I remember them too, but have no recollection of how they surfaced?

How do we know that he wasn't paid a hell of a lot to take the fall and disappear? We don't seem to be looking very hard for him.

Just curious what convinced you of their authenticity....

[SaveElmer]

31. No reason to fake them..Bushies had everyone convinced already

They were quite lengthy and he can be clearly heard discussing the attacks...including his opinion that the buildings would only collapse to the floor that the plane hit at, and his surprise that they totally collapsed. If the Bushies were responsible for fabricating the tapes they could have made them significantly more damaging. Or why bother with tapes at all...at that time the world was clearly convinced Bin Laden was to blame..As I recall the army found them in one of the safe houses Bin Laden had been using in Afghanistan.

The real issue is the Bushies culpability in propping up an oppressive Saudi regime which helped give rise to these terrorists. By supporting them financially and personally, and by doing everything possible to keep us dependent on mid-east oil, the Bushies cannot escape some responsibility for what happened.

[Solomon]

38. I can't believe you guys fell for the fake tapes. Go back and look at

the difference between the Osamas in post #12. The fat guy is the one on the tapes. Clearly not Bin Laden. The guy on the right is Bin Laden. They quietly put that tape away when some of us noticed the difference.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. Bingo. Now consider the close relationships between the Saudi....

...Royal Family, the Bin Laden family, and the Bush family.

Consider also that Bin Laden was a creature of the CIA during the Afghan-Soviet War, a person trusted by the CIA to funnel enormous amounts of arms and money into Afghanistan.

Until recently, the Bin Laden family had a large chunk of stock in the Carlysle Group, the huge multi-national Defense and Construction firm that boasted the likes of Poppy Bush as a Director.

Don't forget the ties between the Sudi Royal Family and the Oil interests backing the Bush family.

[StandUpGuy]

141. Bushies had everyone convinced already ????

Just because the RW echo chamber said it was OBL does not mean anybody let alone the American people believed it.

Everybody I know was waiting for the Powell white paper that was replaced by the tapes.

Please don't say things like everyone was convinced.

In Canada many, many people had little faith in the official story from the get go.Including the large Arab population.

You assume the only people that needed convincing were grieving Americans.

[DemBones DemBones]

114. The "fat Osama" tapes were found by

American troops in a deserted house in Afghanistan. Convenient, huh?

[tom_paine]

16. No. We have never seen ONE SHRED of evidence

Powell said he would show us, but of course it was a LIE.

[gumby]

17. NO

Also wondered about this and why we should believe the same people that we are now being told have a "failure of imagination" and were unable to "connect the dots."

On one hand, "they" are wrong, wrong, wrong.

On the other hand, "they" ask us to believe their scenario about what happened on 9/11.

[TrustingDog]

18. not at all... and don't apologize or call yourself down...

by throwing in 'tinfoil'.
us 'tinfoilers' have been right about a lot of things in the last few years.

[eeyore]

29. Thank you...

Even in my very liberal circle of friends it can be hard not to sound like a crackpot when asking questions like these. Good to have folks here to bounce things off of. I don't post a lot but I've been here since the * coronation.

Thanks for asking questions DU!

[MuseRider]

19. No.

Not at all.

[LiberalEsto]

20. It was actually Martha Stewart. n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eeyore]

32. Thanks for being honest...

But no need to attack those who don't eat up every bit of what we're told without question.

Do you trust the CIA? Do you trust the media? Do you trust the NeoCons?

I stand unconvinced, but truly open to being convinced. I just don't see anyone actually asking any questions, just lots of folks who accept what we've been told.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomNickell]

125. NOPE. He's quite bright.

If the passport is not a myth, it's still evidence of nothing.

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StandUpGuy]

143. I thought you said you were going away.

Is it in your best interest to believe the official story.

I always wondered how they could have passed off the Warren commission report on the American people.

Not any more.

I'm now convinced only the very weak and feeble thinkers bought that crap. The media and power elite just forced everybody to deal with it and relied on sycophants like yourself to try and discredit debate.

[stickdog]

164. Yep, put what you don't want to hear on ignore. That way you can go on

believing whatever you want -- like the fact that Wilson entered WWI to end all wars because an evil German Osama Bin Laden sunk the Lusitania without a shred of cause or provocation.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

82. Or maybe the lizard people.

[Swamp Rat]

219. I keep telling people that Bush is an alien lizard.

You see what happened to the guy above? He was DELETED... maybe they got to him, or maybe Skinner knew he was an alien lizard and took him out.

[luaneryder]

25. Not no, but HELL no!

I'm just now reading Richard Clarke's book (better late than never) and the FUBAR mess this government is in is beyond comprehension. I worked for the government for 15 years and knew it was fucked up, but what he's describing is surreal. The media has proven to be totally biased, unreliable and worthless. Shit, it could have been anyone, but I suspect duplicity within our own government, tin foil or no.

[democratreformed]

30. No. n/t

[Generator]

33. Pretty sure it was him but who else

was Bin Laden working for?

The resistance from Washington got so bad, she writes, that agents in her office joked that some FBI officials "had to be spies or moles, like Robert Hansen , who were actually working for Osama bin Laden."
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/05/27/time.fbi/


FBI agents that get orders from Washington to stop investigations that could have stopped 9/11. Why?

Bin Laden has friends in high places.

Let it happen? that's crazy. Bin Laden clearly wanted it to happen. Who else?

[StandUpGuy]

145. Not sure if that 'who else' question was serious or not

so I won't list any more possible perps with motive than two....

Haliburton

The Carlyle Group

[Joe the Revelator]

34. Yes I Am

I've seen nothing that points to any other conclusion.

The tinfoil is out in abundence today.

[Pastiche423]

39. What evidence have you seen

that points to OBL?

Can you produce links for that evidence?

[eeyore]

42. Not tinfoil

Just the wonders of critical thinking. What has you so convinced? I really am open to being convinced.

Do you think I like being called tinfoil by complete strangers, friends and family alike?

[Solomon]

44. Why don't you share your cold hard evidence that Bin Laden did it?

There's only one piece of evidence: the fake tape which was put away quickly when some of us noticed that it wasn't Bin Laden on the tape.

[Joe the Revelator]

52. I'm not going to waste time..

arguing with people who see boogymen in every corner. Al Quadia is an evil evil organization headed by Bin Ladin who showed time and time again that he wanted to get the WTC or a big target on America soil. It doesn't take a weatherman to look outside and see the weather.

[Karenina]

60. That musta been some mighty fine Kool-aid!

Saccharin, aspertame or both?

HI SOLOMON!!! :hi:

[TNOE]

66. Logic??

I'm not going to "argue with people who see boogey men in every corner".... but then Al Queda is evil, evil. Whose afraid of the boogey man?

Ummmm, most of us Democrats, Independents, etc., KNEW there really weren't very many of those boogy men - at least until Bush attacked Afghanistan and then a totally innocent country (Iraq) - and now has pissed off the whole Muslim population - and NOW there are going to be millions of them. Before Bush was in office - we had very little to fear really. Now - forgeddabouit.

[stickdog]

166. Exactly, it's just like every unsolved murder in LA.

It's quite obvious that OJ killed them all. I mean, it doesn't take a weatherman to look outside and see the weather.

[bobbyboucher]

242. Al Quadia? Is that a hot new speaker system?

I need to go to Best Buy and check that shit out.

[TomNickell]

127. Read the 9/11 report. It's available online.

There is -lots- of evidence. Thousands of people (real people with families and beliefs) have worked on the 9/11 investigations.

To claim that the 'official' story is bogus and all these people are deceived or complicit is the height of juvenile arrogance.

[StandUpGuy]

146. My juvenile arrogance says that

These people have spent the last year working on a piece of fiction that nobody of any importance was held accountable to.

Did bush and cheney testify.

No, they met with the committee.

Just because people, honest, decent people get assigned tasks doesn't mean they get the whole picture.

I could use your argument to defend the brave reporters that had the courage to become embedded with the military in Iraq.

None of them may have been in on the conspiracy to hide the truth but because they were never allowed to see more than there little slice of the conflict they say they couldn't connect the dots.

[Sterling]

182. Nice

great point.

[StandUpGuy]

189. Thanks !

I've tried to rebut several of the "give me a break" types but they just continue.

[Sterling]

206. The strange thing is they have been here for ever.

Rerpeating the same old tired shit like it matters. I wonder how they can look at these threads after they are done and think the accomplished anything but hurting their point of view?

I on the other hand think these threads are a great way for lurkers to learn about this stuff and have it vetted right bofre their eyes.

[StandUpGuy]

212. I think they do it to

make themselves feel better abut the mess we're in.

Its easy to blame people weaker than you for your problems. Kind of like blaming Homeless people for unemployment.

But it is much more daunting to understand and stand up to the true threat you face from people more powerful than you.

It happens everyday.

[stickdog]

168. Yes, and Stalin's histories were 100% true as well!

Just think of all the wonderful scholars who worked on them! They couldn't ALL have been in on it! Certainly not!

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

35. no i have not been convinced.

what amazes me is that people will believe anything. if he is the mastermind, what did he do, how did he mastermind the operation? i want specifics. it is nice to believe there are bad guys out there, but i think the whole situation is much more complicated and nuanced than that.

[Tight_rope]

36. Nope...He's not alone....I truely believe Bush was in on it!

[Bush was AWOL]

37. I'm not 100% convinced, but I do think he took part in it

to some extent at the least. Regardless of whether he did or not, the public perception is he definitely did it and trying to make a case he didn't do it will get you no where.

[Sterling]

92. So by all means go a long to get along.

When the jews were being tossed into ovens good Germans didn't rock the boat. I am glad we have so many brave and decent people on DU.

[DemBones DemBones]

120. Public perception is that Bush* completed his Guard service

but you chose the user name "Bush was AWOL" so you don't agree with public perception there and must see hope of changing it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

40. Pretty close to.

I was convinced it was OBL when I first realized the scope of the attack that morning. And my conclusion has only gotten stronger since then.

[StandUpGuy]

147. Scope = OBL

please explain that one

[bvar22]

160. The WTC attack was BEYOND OBL's capabilities.

way, way, waaaayyyyyy beyond!

[Sterling]

178. Yes OBL can't stand down the military

Or schedule simulations for our defense structure almost identical to the attack that happened on 9-11. Yep thats right, the US was having war games that morning with a plot of planes being hijacked.

[wadestock]

41. Personally, I couldn't care less...

I ascribe to the REALISTIC theory about terrorism threats to this country.

All you need is 12 wacos with as half ass sense of technology and you can pull off almost anything.

Going after Bin Laden....well OK....I'll go along with that in Afghanistan....but you really haven't put any real dent in the real threat of terrorist attacks in the future....

such as the small pox problem which no one seems to want to talk about....
such as the new sycronized explosives in back packs that could possibly take out buildings....

We have a dumb mentality generally coming from the neocon right wing side fighting terrorism is basically an insect infestation problem....ie....you HAVE TO KILL ALL OF THEM.

This is one of the many reasons they don't understand the real enemy and why they have their heads up their asses.

[Zynx]

43. Yes.

It makes the most sense since I am not a MIHOPer or one of the kooks who believes Israel did it.

[eeyore]

47. Why does it make the most sense?

Does asking for proof make one MIHOP or tinfoil?

I really am looking to be convinced.

[StandUpGuy]

149. It sounds like you are more concerned

about being labeled a MIHOPer or an anti Semitic kook than you are concerned about the truth.

[stickdog]

174. Not the Mossad and not Bush = Bin Laden?

I guess that's by the process of elimination?

[RebelYell]

45. I don't believe one word of the official explanation

And no one can force me to believe their pile of BS

[WoodrowFan]

76. apparently because you have your own pile to believe in.

[RebelYell]

91. Ha ha ha

What a zinger!

[Sterling]

128. Check out Woodrows fine grasp of the subject matter above.

He does not exactly have a handle on the topic. Maybe he will pick up some knowledge if he hangs around long enough helping us kick the thread?

He serves a purpose in showing how feble the official story is.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

46. Yes

They've been attacking us for years. There's live interviews where he admits past attacks and says he's planning more. MIHOP is ridiculous, LIHOP we'll never know.

[eeyore]

49. Fair enough my fellow Oregonian...

But shouldn't we at least try to catch him and put him on trial? And until we do isn't it fair to have questions?

I'm not MIHOP or LIHOP, just willing to ask questions in hopes of learning the truth.

[maveric]

50. What interviews? The videotape?

With the fake Osama? What interviews?

[sandnsea]

54. These interviews

and other statements from bin Laden. You're saying Osama isn't real?


Osama bin Laden in His Own Words:

September 23, 2001 - "We hope that these brothers (Muslim casualties in Pakistan) are among the first martyrs in Islam's battle in this era against the new Christian-Jewish crusade led by the big crusader Bush under the flag of the Cross; this battle is considered one of Islam's battles... (text illegible)
We ask Allah to make him (Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar) victorious over the forces of infidels and tyranny, and to crush the new Christian-Jewish crusade on the land of Pakistan and Afghanistan... "


Summer 2001 - A videotape circulating in the Middle East features bin Laden reciting a victory poem about the USS Cole bombing, and then issues a call to arms: "To all the Mujah: Your brothers in Palestine are waiting for you; it's time to penetrate America and Israel and hit them where it hurts the most."

January 1999 – In an interview with bin Laden published in Newsweek: "Muslim scholars have issued a fatwa against any American who pays taxes to his government. He is our target because he is helping the American war machine against the Muslim nation."
"The is an umbrella to all organizations fighting the jihad against Jews and the crusaders. The response from Muslim nations has been greater than we expected. We are urging all of them to start fighting, or at least to start preparing to fight, against the enemies of Islam."


In an interview published in Time the same week (from a December 1998 ABC News interview with bin Laden): "If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans in order to liberate al-Aksa Mosque and the Holy Ka’aba is considered a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal.

Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God"

May 1998 - Bin Laden issued a statement entitled "The Nuclear Bomb of Islam," under the banner of the "International Islamic Front for Fighting the Jews and Crusaders," in which he stated that "it is the duty of Muslims to prepare as much force as possible to terrorize the enemies of God."

February 1998 - Under the banner of the "International Islamic Front for Jihad on the Jews and Crusaders," bin Laden endorsed a fatwa, religious decree, to call for the liberation of Muslim holy places in Saudi Arabia and Israel, as well as the death of Americans and their allies. The decree says, "These crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger and Muslims."

May 1997 - During an interview with CNN, bin Laden reaffirms his call for a holy war against Americans. "We have focused our declaration of jihad on the U.S. soldiers inside Arabia…The U.S. government has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal through its support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine."

Bin Laden in an interview with CNN’s Peter Arnett: "If the American government is serious about avoiding the explosions inside the US, then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims. Those hundreds of thousands who have been killed or displaced in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, do have brothers and relatives. They would make of Ramzi Yousef a symbol and a teacher. The US will drive them to transfer the battle into the United States."

May 1997 - Bin Laden reaffirmed his call for a holy war against Americans. "The US Government has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal through its support of the Israeli occupation of Palestine"

February 1997 - Bin Laden threatens holy war against the U.S. in an interview on the British documentary program, Dispatches. "This war will not only be between the people of the two sacred mosques and the Americans, but it will be between the Islamic world and the Americans and their allies because this war is a new crusade led by America against the Islamic nations."

November 1996 - Bin Laden issues an ultimatum to the U.S. and Western countries with troops stationed in Arab countries and declares a holy war against the "enemy." "Had we wanted to carry out small operations after our threat statement, we would have been able to… We thought that the two bombings in Riyadh and Dhahran would be enough (sic.) a signal to the wise U.S. decision-makers to avoid the real confrontation with the Islamic nation, but it seems they did not understand it."

November 1996 - Bin Laden warns U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia to expect more "effective, qualitative" attacks and advises Western forces to speed their "departure" from the Middle East.

August 1996 - Bin Laden says to the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper that the Saudis have a "legitimate right" to attack the5,000 American military personnel stationed in Saudi Arabia. "The presence of the American crusader armed forces in the countries of the Islamic Gulf is the greatest danger and the biggest harm that threatens the world’s largest oil reserves… The infidels must be thrown out of the Arabian Peninsula."

August 1996 - Bin Laden issued a Declaration of jihad, holy war, entitled: "Message from Osama bin Laden to his Muslim Brothers in the Whole World and Especially in the Arabian Peninsula: Declaration of Jihad Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Mosques; Expel the Heretics from the Arabian Peninsula."

August 1996 In an interview with The Independent, a London daily, bin Laden calls the June 1995 truck bomb in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia" the beginning of war between Muslims and the United States."

July 1996 - Bin Laden warns that the terrorists who bombed American soldiers in Saudi Arabia will also attack British and French military personnel. He said " was the result of American behavior against Muslims, its support of Jews in Palestine, and the massacre of Muslims in Palestine and Lebanon."

[maveric]

55. But how do you know that these interviews are real?

The bu$h people have and will do anything to be in, and maintain their power. I personally dont beleive anything they say.

[sandnsea]

56. rotfl

Yeah, news outlets from all over the world used bin Laden holigrams with tape recorded responses to fool everybody. You people kill me sometimes.

[Sterling]

99. You really think Fat Osama and Skinny Osama are the same guy?

And you think that every second hand non sourced report you read on what OBL or Al-CIA-DUH are saying is to be taken without scrutiny?

[StandUpGuy]

152. You don't understand what MIHOP is

MIHOP includes OBL as a BUSH SHILL since the 80's

Please pay attention

[latebloomer]

93. OK, it's clear he doesn't LIKE us!

But where is the proof he masterminded 9-11???

[bvar22]

162. And these quotes from OBL prove his connection to 911.....how?

In fact, all of above reference attacks within the Middle East.

The WTC attack was in New York....doesn't really fit OBL's MO.

Your collection of evidence actually provides support to the arguments of the doubters.

[vincent_vega_lives]

48. Look at the MO

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm

Established by Usama Bin Ladin in the late 1980s to bring together Arabs who fought in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. Helped finance, recruit, transport, and train Sunni Islamic extremists for the Afghan resistance. Current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic” and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries–particularly Saudi Arabia.

Claims to have shot down US helicopters and killed US servicemen in Somalia in 1993 and to have conducted three bombings that targeted US troops in Aden, Yemen, in December 1992.

Issued statement under banner of “the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders” in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens—civilian or military—and their allies everywhere.

Conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 individuals and injured more than 5,000 others.

Directed the 12 October 2000 attack on the USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 US Navy members, and injuring another 39.

Merged with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Al-Jihad) in June 2001.

On 11 September 2001, 19 al-Qaida suicide attackers hijacked and crashed four US commercial jets, two into the World Trade Center in New York City, one into the Pentagon near Washington, DC, and a fourth into a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, leaving about 3,000 individuals dead or missing.

In December 2001, suspected al-Qaida associate Richard Colvin Reid attempted to ignite a shoe bomb on a transatlantic flight from Paris to Miami.

In 2002, carried out bombing on 28 November of hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killing 15 and injuring 40. Probably supported a nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia, on 12 October that killed about 180. Responsible for an attack on US military personnel in Kuwait, on 8 October, that killed one US soldier and injured another. Directed a suicide attack on the MV Limburg off the coast of Yemen, on 6 October that killed one and injured four. Carried out a firebombing of a synagogue in Tunisia on 11 April that killed 19 and injured 22.

Attempted to shoot down an Israeli chartered plane with a surface-to-air missile as it departed the Mombasa airport in November 2002.

In 2003, carried out the assault and bombing on 12 May of three expatriate housing complexes in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, that killed 20 and injured 139. Assisted in carrying out the bombings on 16 May in Casablanca, Morocco, of a Jewish center, restaurant, nightclub, and hotel that killed 41 and injured 101. Probably supported the bombing of the J.W. Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia, on 5 August that killed 17 and injured 137. Responsible for the assault and bombing on 9 November of a housing complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, that killed 17 and injured 100. Conducted the bombings of two synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, on 15 November that killed 23 and injured 200 and the bombings in Istanbul of the British Consulate and HSBC Bank on 20 November that resulted in 27 dead and 455 injured. Has been involved in some attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Al-Qaida is linked to the following plans that were disrupted or not carried out: to assassinate Pope John Paul II during his visit to Manila in late 1994, to kill President Clinton during a visit to the Philippines in early 1995, to bomb in midair a dozen US trans-Pacific flights in 1995, and to set off a bomb at Los Angeles International Airport in 1999. Also plotted to carry out terrorist operations against US and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations in late 1999. (Jordanian authorities thwarted the planned attacks and put 28 suspects on trial.)

Al-Qaida probably has several thousand members and associates. The arrests of senior-level al-Qaida operatives have interrupted some terrorist plots. Also serves as a focal point or umbrella organization for a worldwide network that includes many Sunni Islamic extremist groups, some members of al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin.

Al-Qaida has cells worldwide and is reinforced by its ties to Sunni extremist networks. Was based in Afghanistan until Coalition forces removed the Taliban from power in late 2001. Al-Qaida has dispersed in small groups across South Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East and probably will attempt to carry out future attacks against US interests.

Al-Qaida maintains moneymaking front businesses, solicits donations from likeminded supporters, and illicitly siphons funds from donations to Muslim charitable organizations. US and international efforts to block al-Qaida funding has hampered the group’s ability to obtain money.

[DemBones DemBones]

126. Okay, but given this information

(that you conveniently cited for me -- thanks!)


"Al-Qaida is linked to the following plans that were disrupted or not carried out: to assassinate Pope John Paul II during his visit to Manila in late 1994, to kill President Clinton during a visit to the Philippines in early 1995, to bomb in midair a dozen US trans-Pacific flights in 1995, and to set off a bomb at Los Angeles International Airport in 1999. Also plotted to carry out terrorist operations against US and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations in late 1999. (Jordanian authorities thwarted the planned attacks and put 28 suspects on trial.) "

Given that, and their history, and our supposed knowledge of their organization, numbers, fund-raising, etc., and given the threats they were issuing in the Summer of 2001, why were our military and government so poorly prepared?

[vincent_vega_lives]

256. Well that's the question, iddnt it?

Do I think Al Quaida was capable and willing to carry out the attacks? Absolutely.

Do I think the US Government was complacent? Absolutely.

Do I think the US Government was an accomplice? Absolutely not.

Bureaucratic inertia allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen, and a lack of emphasis from the top.

[stickdog]

175. Exactly. This is also why every copycat crime is obviously

perpetrated by the original criminal who inspired it!

[MrSlayer]

53. No, I think the PNAC did it.

And I always will.

[PeaceForever]

84. Interesting idea.

It would be at least prudent to look at who benefitted from 9/11. Any police investigation starts there.

"Motive"

Hmmm, let's see ... $15 billion out of the treasury to "business leaders"; a capital gains tax cut; "let's roll"; opposition falling like dominoes.

The right wing is clearly the greatest beneficiary. Doesn't mean they did it. Does mean they should be suspected.

Mayb bin Laden has been dead for years.

[WoodrowFan]

107. and the facts be damned I guess. (NT)

[TomNickell]

135. Facts? Don't need no Steekin facts!

He's a Conspiracy Hobbyist.

[bobbyboucher]

245. Don't you mean "coincidence hobbiest"?

It's all the coincidences.

[DemBones DemBones]

139. WHAT damned facts? People pointing fingers at OBL?

An oh-so-conveniently discovered videotape of a fat Osama impersonator? Even if you believe that was really Osama, he only says the attacks were very successful, he wouldn't have thought the towers would collapse that way, etc. (And why DID they collapse that way? And why did WTC 7 fall when it wasn't hit at all?)

"Fat Osama" says something to the effect that "the brothers" prepared for a long time but I'd guess that Muslims consider all Muslims their brothers and everyone thought they'd prepared for a long time.

And, of course, none of us speak Arabic, anyway, so we're all relying on someone else's translation of the words of a man who doesn't look like any other photo of Osama, words heard on a videotape found by American troops in a deserted house in Afghanistan. Clearly, the tape was left for American soldiers to find, but who left it? The CIA are and have been in Afghanistan. Just today I saw on the CNN crawl that a federal judge has ruled that CIA doesn't have to reveal records about an outside employee -- I'd guess Mr. Edema -- who allegedly beat a prisoner in the mountains of Afghanistan, with said prisoner dying a day later.)

If you have FACTS, share them. I've seen and heard a lot of SPIN and SPECULATION. FACTS would be welcome.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

183. Wrong on three counts.

If you have facts, show them. Give me links.

[Sterling]

187. You already proved you have no use for facts…

28. thats a tinfoil myth

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2043450&mesg_id=2043687&page=

Bye bye indeed.

[leftofthedial]

59. there is almost no evidence that he had anything to do with it

the flood of lies we have been told by the bushgang about 9-11, the way 9-11 has been used for the crassest of political purposes, and the few known facts of the matter are highly inconclusive and give us plenty of reason to be suspicious of the official propaganda story.

The 9-11 Commission didn't shed any light on the truth as far as I can tell.

[Pabst Blue Democrat]

62. OK if you think Bushco did it......

The following must be considered. I'll assume that most of us are operating under the assumption that Bushco had an obsession with Iraq from the day they took office. If they would go so far as to stage these attacks, what reason would they have to blame Bin Laden? Would they not frame Sadaam and Iraq instead and save themselves this whole WMD debacle?

I'm am convinced that it was Al Qaeda behind the attacks.....now how they achieved the means and got away with it is a question worth examining.

[uhhuh]

69. Too Hard of a Sell

America had to be placed on a justifiable war footing.

We had to feel justified in going to war against a legitimate enemy.

Saddam's Iraq was a repressive, secular regime. It would be hard to convince people that a government would have suicide highjackers committed to starting a war with the U.S. that they would surely lose.

It would be almost impossible to fake that a man like Saddam, who was obsessed with staying in power, would risk being obliterated by attacking the U.S. directly.

Saddam and Bin Laden had both made statements against each other, so it would be hard to sell the idea that they were working together. (Chimpco tried to do that anyway, and ended up just implying it a lot.)

It was much better to horrify and frighten the American people, get them behind a justifiable war, and then start churning out new products like Saddam and Iran, and Syria, and North Korea.

Once you get the ball rolling on the first war, it's usually easier to keep it rolling, especially when the enemy is an idea, not a country.

[Pabst Blue Democrat]

71. I politely disagree

I think a good chunk of Americans were ready to believe anything after 9/11, simply due to the need to have a face to direct all of their anger too.

If Bushco was brilliant and sly enough to pull off these attacks themselves and have virtually no-one catch on, they just as easily could have placed the blame in Iraq's lap.

[Sterling]

104. Americans? Sure but maybe not the rest of the world.

You noticed the WMD excuse fell apart. OBL is a all purpose boogie man that will allow our leaders to take a hard line from here on out when it comes to military affairs.

[Pabst Blue Democrat]

225. What does the rest of the world matter

to this administration?

I just cannot believe that if they pull this conspiracy off with perfection, frame someone for the attacks, and essentially have an "Invade a Country For Free" card, that they waste it on a half-assed retaliation against the Taliban when all along they had Iraq on their minds.

I'm not letting these guys off. I think they could have done a lot more to prevent what happened, and that they have handled the aftermath about as ass-wrong as they could've....but MIHOP theories ultimately hurt our cause and credibility.

[Sterling]

94. OBL is a catch all boogie man that will be used to justify war with any

ME country that we choose. The PNAC doc shows that this was their goal. Saddam was just one step. OBL 9-11 will be used against more than just Saddam.

They have already rattled sabers at Syria and Iran with talk of involvement in 9-11.


I hope this helped you.

[Solly Mack]

63. No

[theboss]

67. I believe President Clinton

I posted this above, but it deserves it again.

20 August, 1998

President Clinton's Speech on Terrorist Attacks

Good afternoon.

Today I ordered our armed forces to strike at terrorist-related facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan because of the imminent threat they presented to our national security.

I want to speak with you about the objective of this action and why it was necessary.

Our target was terror. Our mission was clear -- to strike at the network of radical groups affiliated with and funded by Osama bin Laden, perhaps the preeminent organizer and financier of international terrorism in the world today.

The groups associated with him come from diverse places, but share a hatred for democracy, a fanatical glorification of violence, and a horrible distortion of their religion to justify the murder of innocents.

They have made the United States their adversary precisely because of what we stand for and what we stand against.

A few months ago, and again this week, bin Laden publicly vowed to wage a terrorist war against America, saying -- and I quote -- ``We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians. They are all targets.''

Their mission is murder. And their history is bloody.

In recent years, they killed American, Belgian and Pakistani peacekeepers in Somalia. They plotted to assassinate the president of Egypt and the Pope. They planned to bomb six United States 747s over the Pacific.

They bombed the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan. They gunned down German tourists in Egypt. The most recent terrorist events are fresh in our memory. Two weeks ago, 12 Americans and nearly 300 Kenyans and Tanzanians lost their lives. And another 5,000 were wounded when our embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam were bombed.

There is convincing information from our intelligence community that the bin Laden terrorist network was responsible for these bombings. Based on this information, we have high confidence that these bombings were planned, financed and carried out by the organization bin Laden leads.

America has battled terrorism for many years. Where possible, we've used law enforcement and diplomatic tools to wage the fight. The long arm of American law has reached out around the world and brought to trial those guilty of attacks in New York, in Virginia and in the Pacific.
We have quietly disrupted terrorist groups and foiled their plots. We have isolated countries that practice terrorism. We've worked to build an international coalition against terror. But there have been and will be times when law enforcement and diplomatic tools are simply not enough.
When our very national security is challenged and when we must take extraordinary steps to protect the safety of our citizens. With compelling evidence that the bin Laden network of terrorist groups was planning to mount further attacks against Americans and other freedom-loving people, I decided America must act.

And so this morning, based on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, I ordered our armed forces to take action to counter an immediate threat from the bin Laden network.

Earlier today, the United States carried out simultaneous strikes against terrorist facilities and infrastructure in Afghanistan. Our forces targeted one of the most active terrorist bases in the world. It contained key elements of the bin Laden network's infrastructure and has served as a training camp for literally thousands of terrorists from around the globe.
We have reason to believe that a gathering of key terrorist leaders was to take place there today, thus underscoring the urgency of our actions.

Our forces also attacked a factory in Sudan associated with the bin Laden network. The factory was involved in the production of materials for chemical weapons.

The United States does not take this action lightly. Afghanistan and Sudan have been warned for years to stop harboring and supporting these terrorist groups.

But countries that persistently host terrorists have no right to be safe havens. Let me express my gratitude to our intelligence and law enforcement agencies for their hard, good work. And let me express my pride in our armed forces, who carried out this mission while making every possible effort to minimize the loss of innocent lives.

I want you to understand, I want the world to understand that our actions today were not aimed against Islam, the faith of hundreds of millions of good, peace-loving people all around the world, including the United States. No religion condones the murder of innocent men, women and children. But our actions were aimed at fanatics and killers who wrap murder in the cloak of righteousness, and in so doing, profane the great religion in whose name they claim to act.

My fellow Americans, our battle against terrorism did not begin with the bombing of our embassies in Africa, nor will it end with today's strike.

It will require strength, courage and endurance. We will not yield to this threat. We will meet it no matter how long it may take. This will be a long, ongoing struggle between freedom and fanaticism, between the rule of law and terrorism.

We must be prepared to do all that we can for as long as we must. America is and will remain a target of terrorists precisely because we are leaders; because we act to advance peace, democracy and basic human values; because we're the most open society on earth; and because, as we have shown yet again, we take an uncompromising stand against terrorism.

But of this, I am also sure. The risks from inaction to America and the world would be far greater than action. For that would embolden our enemies, leaving their ability and their willingness to strike us intact.

In this case, we knew before our attack that these groups already had planned further actions against us and others.

I want to reiterate the United States wants peace, not conflict. We want to lift lives around the world, not take them. We have worked for peace in Bosnia, in Northern Ireland, in Haiti, in the Middle East and elsewhere.

But in this day, no campaign for peace can succeed without a determination to fight terrorism. Let our actions today send this message loud and clear: There are no expendable American targets.

There will be no sanctuary for terrorists. We will defend our people, our interests and our values. We will help people of all faiths, in all parts of the world, who want to live free of fear and violence.

We will persist and we will prevail.

Thank you, God bless you and may God bless our country.

[stickdog]

177. Me, too. Just like when he said he never had sex with Monica!

And how about the time he admitted chopping down that cherry tree!

Yes, the fact that Clinton thought OBL was a nasty terrorist who had it in for the good old USA certainly PROVES that Bin Laden was behind 9/11.

In fact, it proves he was the 'lone madman' behind it!

[leanings]

68. I believe it...

as much as I believe we landed on the moon in 1969. I'm convinced we were on the moon; everything I know about the Apollo program and the space race leads me to believe we did. I've seen interviews with astronauts who say they were there, and television footage that's supposedly been shot from the moon. I've touched a rock that scientists tell me came from the moon. I was not, however, on the moon when they got there, so I can't say with absolute certainty we were there. But I'm sure enough that I'd bet my life on it.

Now, I understand that there are certain folks out there that don't think we landed on the moon, and in fact vigorously deny it. I give these people little credence, because for an otherwise rational person to believe that we didn't land on the moon I suspect that person would have to WANT to believe Armstrong and the Eagle were actually out in New Mexico somewhere.

[DemBones DemBones]

148. You're wrong in your premise. An "otherwise

rational person" who has learned about how many lies and deceptions have emanated from government may quite logically come to wonder if we were lied to about the moon trips, too. Or any of the space flights, for that matter.

Once the USSR launched Sputnik, the mad race to catch up, and get ahead of, the godless Communists was on. We had to do it! Mired in the mud of South Viet Nam, we had to do it even more.

By the time of the moon landing in July 1969, Americans had been seeing the battle footage and the film of flag-draped caskets returning home for burial on their nightly evening news for more than three years. The year before, April, 1968, they'd seen the slaying and burial of Martin Luther King, Jr., followed in June of 1968 by the slaying and funeral of Robert F. Kennedy. The country was quite divided over the war and black Americans were angered by years of struggle for civil rights and the killings of black leaders, including Malcolm X (killed in 1965) and MLK. In the summer of 1968, blacks rioted in many American cities, burning buildings across the country. The Chicago police beat anti-war demonstrators outside the Democratic Party convention. I could go on but you get the idea, I think, even if you're too young to remember the events.

America needed something good, something positive, in 1969, and the moon landing provided it. Maybe it WAS faked in order to boost American morale. Maybe it was real. As you pointed out, our knowledge of space travel is based on the word of other people. Just like our knowledge of Osama's involvement in 911.

[leanings]

163. Perfect.

Similarly persuasive arguments can be made for a living Elvis and alien bases under the Arctic icepack.

I've heard tell that I have a four chambered heart. I'VE never seen it, tho, and I think maybe my blood is being circulated by tiny elves with tiny bicycle pumps.

Sorry, I just like to think I've got some blades left for my Occam's Razor.

[DemBones DemBones]

184. About Occam's Razor. . .

It has to be the simplest CREDIBLE explanation.

[leanings]

198. Ah.

And the simplest credible explanation here is that 9/11 was the work of a vast, undetected secret cabal that involved hundreds or even thousands of plotters and deceptive operations in dozens of countries over almost two decades, all in the furtherance of greedy capitalism and American hegemony.

Or it could have been the work of known terrorists who'd declared war on the US and had attacked before on several occasions.

You can have your reality, and I'll hang on to mine.

[DemBones DemBones]

237. How does your "reality" explain the military NON-reaction

to the attacks? There should have been lots of fighter jets in the air seeing what three hijacked planes were doing and protecting major targets like New York and Washington once the first tower was hit. The military trains and trains and trains for such emergencies, and they had had years of awareness of this enemy. As you say, the terrorists had declared war on America and carried out previous attacks abroad.

You're arguing that known terrorists acted alone and the American military could do nothing.

If I knew about Project Bojinka before 9/11, I'd expect those in command of the military to know, too. Project Bojinka involved several plots, including hijacking passenger planes and blowing them up over the ocean and hijacking planes and flying them into targeted buildings, such as the Pentagon.

If I knew that Al Qaeda was talking about attacking from the air to kill Bush* when he was in Genoa in June 2001, I'd expect those in command of the military to know, too.

Given knowledge of those two plots alone, wouldn't you think that our military would have a ready response to hijackings?

Given the fact that, on September 11, 2001, the Pentagon was doing an exercise simulating an attack involving planes being crashed into the Pentagon, wouldn't you think that our military, at the top levels, was aware of this possibility?

At the top levels, of course, the president of the United States is the commander in chief of all the armed services and, as such, he is briefed on intelligence regularly. Yet Bush* stayed seated in an elementary classroom in Florida after his chief of staff told him we were under attack, that the second plane had hit the WTC. And the secretary of defense stayed in a meeting with, as I recall, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff.


You wrote:

"And the simplest credible explanation here is that 9/11 was the work of a vast, undetected secret cabal that involved hundreds or even thousands of plotters and deceptive operations in dozens of countries over almost two decades, all in the furtherance of greedy capitalism and American hegemony."


It doesn't have to be vast, and the fact that we're talking about it means it did not go undetected.




You wrote:

"Or it could have been the work of known terrorists who'd declared war on the US and had attacked before on several occasions."


This particular group of known terrorists had previously done fairly simple bombings and the evidence suggests they should not have been able to fly the planes nearly as well as they did. They were certainly lucky that no fighters intercepted them, weren't they?


The reality is that there was a conspiracy. We're just arguing about who was involved.

[louis c]

70. Yes.

[JohnLocke]

73. Yes (nt).

[Protected]

74. Yes (NM)

[shance]

75. I have never believed any of the Bin Ladin story - it was too contrived

They came out with the information about Bin Laden about an hour after the attack.

Im being sarchastic, but I remember this information being thrown at us...no thoughtful cautious responses anywhere on the networks to be found. It went from assumption to accusation to proof in about a day.

I remember wondering if I was crazy because so many people around me were jumping on the Osama Bin Laden conventional theory board instead of questioning what the hell just happened and why are we being stuffed answers so quickly?

I would ask friends how does the Administration and the government know so quickly that it is Osama Bin Laden, and the usual response was something like "oh you know, theyve got access to all kinds of information". I mean, in one tragic sense, it was almost comical.


Thats what amazed me, that Americans believed it without question. One thing I do believe is we wont be so quick to buy the next terrorist event dujour*, but if there had been honest accountability with this commission, we probably wouldnt be having to live in constant ambiguity.

[latebloomer]

95. I know, this bothers me to no end

It is blasphemy to raise doubts like this even in most liberal circles. I hear a lot of Air America type liberals--eg, Franken, Rhodes-- talking about how we should have concentrated on fighting Afghanistan. There is never any question about the fundamental premise-- Where is the proof that bin Laden did this?

[2Design]

190. they had all the pictures within 24 hours.....they can't do that on

anything else...it takes them weeks....to decide if they should ..have a committee...or look into anything......yes it was served on a platter in a very short time....and if they knew all this.....how and why......and that makes it loookkkkk very planned....and that they knew where the bin ladens were and flew them out in days....just too

many quick moves.....they don't move that quick now.....

[jus_the_facts]

249. THE WORLD was forcefed OBL from the get go...yet they* had NO IDEA.....

....that planes were going to be used as weapons of mass destruction before 9/11...which has been the right wing mantra excuse ad nauseum ever since....the PNAC planned and implemented 9/11 and used Osama is their Oswald *maji bullet* :think:

[kentuck]

77. I don't think Osama knew about it until he was told.....

and we saw his reaction of video...He was happy it happened and perhaps he trained those involved. But, I'm not sure he planned it or had knowledge of it until after the fact...

[donkeyotay]

79. No, we never did get proof

Before we bombed Afghanistan, remember how bush showed Tony the Poodle the proof as to who was responsible for 9-11? It was too top secret to show us, so they showed Tony, and we had to take his word for it.

Bullshit.

So, now they're working on bombing their third country with the same lack of proof... of which there was none other than what psych-ops dragged out of a cave. By the way, those are the same folks who sort-of apologized about lying to us about toppling the statue. I don't know if you caught the admission on Oberman's show.

"<putting on my flame retardant suit>"

Very funny. I'm new around here, but I can see how it would be necessary.

[DemBones DemBones]

153. Good point about the toppling of Saddam's statue.

They really needed more extras for that shoot, didn't they?

At the time, someone here at DU found a photo online of one of the guys who was participating in the toppling -- he had been with Chalabi the day before! I think the DUer found photos of the guy at three different events, with the one with Chalabi being proof that he was a plant. I wonder if all the guys present at the toppling were Chalabi's men. (Which could mean they were all working for Iran, as things turned out.)

Welcome to DU, donkeyotay! :hi:

[bvar22]

211. RE: The toppling of Saddam's statue.

Vindication for the DU Tin Foil Hatters who refused to blindly accept the administration's cover story.

I'll be with the people who ask questions.

[name not needed]

90. Not Quite

But I'm not convinced that we did it, as some would like to have me believe.

[democraticinsurgent]

101. read New Pearl Harbor by David Griffin

provides a lot of info in one place, in a very academic and non-inflammatory manner. Then go to www.cooperativeresearch.org and read through Paul Thompson's painstakingly researched 9-11 timeline which is sourced only from mainstream news stories.

Then read about Sibel Edmonds and her nightmares as a post 9-11 FBI translator. She claims that what she knows will put "certain elected officials" behind bars. http://www.breakfornews.com/sibel-edmonds.htm

I think she means * and **.

It's either MIHOP or LIHOP. For me, i think the line between the two is so fuzzy it's immaterial. There's no way Bin Laden and 19 Arabs did this all by their lonesome. So we helped, at the minimum. If we helped, then we made it happen. Not much diff between firing the gun and driving the getaway car, now is there?

Also take a look at Daniel Hopsicker's site, www.madcowprod.com. He's dug up amazing stuff on Mohammed Atta and some of the others. Atta was a cokehead and bigtime jetsetter, not a devout Muslim. The flight schools in Florida weren't infiltrated by Muslims, they were run by the CIA. Florida is CIA's terror central. It's amazing (but not surprising) that Hopsicker's work doesn't get more attention.

Once you start to look hard at the established facts--and I'm not talking about pods and missing planes--you can't believe that Uncle Sam didn't take part.

As for Bin Laden, that's a hell of a question. I always figured he was part of the deal and the Al Qaeda was on Uncle Sam's team, just like they always had been. But maybe not. Maybe this was 100% homegrown.

I know. Let's see if we can get a commision to investigate 9-11 and find out what really happened.

Oh, right. Never mind.

[Sterling]

103. It depends on who "we" is.

I doubt you would consider those involved in any kind of colective you would feel comfortable taking part in. Did "America" do it?

I would like to think not but given some people are so irrationally hate filled towards people who even suggest it and can provide no refutation of merit themselves I dare say metaphorically we did do it. Ad to that we have allowed our government to use it to invade other countries and pillage their resources we are culpable for the crime of 9-11.

The deed was most likely a combination of cold war think tankers and "outsourced" military assets. I doubt you share their vision of the future.

[Cuban_Liberal]

96. 100% convinced he planned it, yes.

It's pretty damned obvious, to anyone not wearing a :tinfoilhat: ...

[Sterling]

97. Back it up.

You look foolish otherwise. Faith based logic is not big on DU.

[TomNickell]

110. It's not faith....

Every national police agency, every news agency on Earth has been involved in some aspect of 9/11 investigations. Elected Democratic officials have seen the raw data. Leftist journalists and activists with lifetimes of dedicated effort have looked at the public information and the Conspiracy Hobbyists theories and support the official story. CIA and FBI operatives have risked careers to inform us of administration deceptions on Iraq and incompetence before 9/11 also support the official 9/11 story.

With all that, the burden of proof is solidly with those who think that the 'official' 9/11 story is a 'myth'.

YOU back it up.

The 9/11 Commission report is out. Have you read it?

[stickdog]

179. Have you?

It's all a circle jerk, Tom.

I don't want a sanitized narrative. I want the evidence Powell promised. Where is the EVIDENCE that OBL was the "lone madman"?

[WoodrowFan]

98. self deleted

[Sterling]

102. Thats funny you are the one proven to be wanting on this thread.

Yet you pass judgement on others here who have kept their facts straight far better than you have?

Tell us what other stories that appeared all over the press that quote a direct source in the international media are myths?

Not a surpise. Thanks for providing a strawman "debunker" for this thread, and by all means keep the kicks coming, it gives other people a chance to see how flawed your thinking is.

You only help people understand what a pantload the official Bush version of 9-11 is.

[Sterling]

116. That was probably a very good idea.

I would not want that post visable after your little gem at the top of the thread concerning the passport story.


Instead of hiding in shame why don't you acknowledge you were worng and consider the people discussing this honestly in good faith deserve a tad bit more respect?

[Djinn]

100. I still don't really know what I think about 9/11

but the official story doesn't sit overly well with me. Mainly because people tied to Al Qaeda before and after 9/11 have been utilising fairly amateur methods of destruction, the bombing of the Cole involved a dinghy and a home made bomb, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were destroyed by relatively low-rent car bombs, the train bombings in Madrid, dynamite in backpacks, the Bali bombings a couple blokes with backpacks.

Yet somehow they managed to pull off the hijack of 4 planes and then managed to fly into buildings - which given the speed of flight isn't as easy as people seem to make out.

You would think they were they capable of this sort of attack we would have seen them before or since, or atleast something a little more complex than carrying dynamite onto a passenger train?

[Sterling]

106. And not one more attack inside the US since?

Does not add up. The next attack will occur when it's needed by US, as a pretext, not when it benifits the Muslim world, which would be never.

Who stood to gain the most from 9-11? Certainly not the people of the ME.

[WoodrowFan]

109. yeah

we all know those silly towel-heads can't do anything COMPLICATED, like coordinate multiple simultaneous attacks across Madrid's train system.

[Sterling]

112. Can they stand down the US military?

Now that would be something now wouldn't it. Yes these "terraists" are very powerful and creative indeed.

[Djinn]

129. Cause that's what I said

frankly I find your inference pretty offensive. The simultaneous attacks on Madrid's train system only needed remote control devices. Not hard.

My statements about ease and ability would apply to ANYONE and has nothing to do with "silly towel heads" (jesus any idea how knackered you're making yourself sound here) and if that's what YOU thought when reading my posts then perhaps it's somethign YOU need to examine about your OWN prejudices.

I don't think ANYONE without miltary/government access could have pulled off 9/11.

Any chance of an apology?

[WoodrowFan]

156. not really

nope, my inference stands.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WoodrowFan]

259. please read the rules

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."

[Disturbed]

119. Hearsay is not evidence.

There is zero evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Osama bin Laden was responsible for the 911 Attack. No one has brought forth any such evidence. The Pres. placed a $25M reward on Osama Dead or Alive without offering any evidence of Osama's guilt. The Death Penalty has been placed on Osama without any proof or trial. It is not our responsibilty to prove that Osama is not guilty. It is the Judical System's responsibilty to prove the case. They have not done so.

[TomNickell]

105. Bush, Controlled Demolition, Rocket Pods, Pentagon Rockets...

Well -I- beleive Bush planned the whole thing himself.

Ordered the Pentagon to design and intall special rocket pods underneath the wings of the jetliners ($50 million), had the Dept of Controlled Demolitions study the plans for the WTC and WTC7 and design a detailed demolition plan and install the explosives. Then, the elite Special Office of Suicide Pilots was ordered to supply 4 skilled pilots and 15 trained hijackers to take the planes and crash them. And then, the plane that we are TOLD crashed into the Pentagon was actually taken to a remote island and buried with all of its passengers so that an Air Force Jet could fire a rocket into the Pentagon to make a large hole about the same size as a 767 would make. And then, they planted evidence against SAUDI nationals and Bin Laden so that they could have a good excuse to attack IRAQ. And Bush sat and listened to a story about a pet goat and looked like a complete fool, so that means he is guilty as hell.

I have to leave now the attendant is coming with my medication.

[Sterling]

108. Speading disinfo again I see.

Seems like you really like focusing on "theories" rather than real world fact.

Thx for the kick.

[TomNickell]

118. These ARE facts!

I could see BUSH DID IT the moment I saw those planes hit the WTC!

I KNEW! It was OBVIOUS! And all this evidence that has piled up! Coincidences! There ARE no coincidences! NONE!

Bush profited from 9/11! He MUST have done it!

Only trained military pilots can possibly crash a plane into a building! I can SEE those rocket pods on the pictures! Who else but a trained pilot could fire a rocket at a building while flying the plane? Military Suicide Pilots! Takes years to train one. HAD to be the US military!

And Bush LOOKED innocent when he heard about the planes! That means he's guilty!

And a tall building would -never- fall straight down! NEVER! I have a friend whose second cousin took a course in physics once. He said. And I know a volunteer fireman who said that a little fire could never cause a building to fall. HAD to be a controlled Demolition. Obviously.

I need to rest now. The medication is taking effect.

[Sterling]

191. You make a terrible strawman.

But thx again for the kick and playing punching bag to the more enlightened posters on the board. Everyone has their place on DU and yours as resident 9-11 devils advocate is secure. Having such week debate from the debunkers helps re-enforce the case against the PNAC.

[bobbyboucher]

246. Not to mention all the strawmen, there were strawmen everywhere!

Everywhere! AAAAAA!!!! Strawmen! Look out! Strawmen!

[ScreamingMeemie]

111. Yes I do believe he did it.

Because he wanted to do it. Because years before, he made it his mission to plan and see it through..in some shape or form. Do I think we could have stopped him? Yes. Do I think we encouraged it further a sinister agenda we have involving the Middle East, pipelines and oil? Probably.

[Sterling]

113. And we just got really lucky, W hit the trifecta.

I appreciate that you can see that our government is evil enough to use and manipulate an event like 9-11. It also seems you don't think it is unresonable that the attacks were "allowed" to occur for those ends.

I submit that something this big and important (securing the remaining energy supply) is not something to be left to chance. Timing and control of the situation would be key.

[stavka]

115. Yes -

I thought it was Islamic extremists within 15 seconds of the second plane hitting the towers.That the targets were purely American ruled out Palestinian and Iranian sponsored attackers. That the FOUR planes were piloted meant either educated Islamic terrorists or Ghosts from Imperial Japan. (Domestic terrorists wouldn't hurt the country to that extent, they target ZOG)

I was very impressed, but it was/is the only solution that didn't require a tin-foil hat.

[Sterling]

122. Domestic terrorists?

Like Tim McViegh, no he was a gentle little patriotic lamb.

I hate it when people make the asinine assumption that Americans are above brutality and murder yet people of color are barbarians capable of anything.

History shows that to be laughable.

[stavka]

138. Not my point -

Tim McVeigh and his sort couldn't put such an attack together, nor would they. Militia types - I know them, I've met them, I've worked with them (In a non-political sense)

They are a terrible threat to this country, but this country is going their way under Bush Co.

[Sterling]

170. Not the ones I know.

I have been a guest on "Patriot" radio networks and those people by and large think Bush did it and is part of the NWO.

The Power Hour was one I remeber off hand. Real populist right wing gun loving people.

I too originally thought "OBL". Then I thought "how did this happen". How did they get the military to let them keep attacking us? The first one I might have bought being a mistake. Possibly even the second TC attack.

However the idea that the pentagon could be attacked an hour later confirmed something was wrong with what we were being told. Then I found out that the DC plane and the plan that went down were late departing and it explained the unbelievable gap in attakcs.

9-11 did not go as planed and if it is put to scrutiny by authorities I believe it could lead to the truth of how the crime was planned and executed.

I honestly think Americans had been conditioned and prepaired for the idea that OBL was going to be responsible for something big in the US.

I remember all the leaks and warnings about him over the years. I have no more proof that OBL was behind the Cole, Kobar or the embassy bombings than I do he did 9-11.

[Curious Dave]

117. 100% Convinced...

that it was MIHOP.

[eridani]

121. He was the chair of the alumni fundraising group--

--not the quarterback.

[Sterling]

124. But you know PNAC are the AD's right.

Since you big college football so much.

Yes OBL is part of the program but he has some not so surprising team mates on our home field.

[indigobusiness]

123. How could they be so quickly certain who was responsible

when they were so clueless it was taking shape and let it happen?

[TomNickell]

133. They probably weren't certain.

They took 2 months to attack Afghanistan. But, I imagine it was pretty easy to connect the dots once the picture was in focus.

Read Richard Clarke's book, and the 9/11 commission report.

[indigobusiness]

140. Overnight they convicted Osama, but couldn't convict OJ

If it had happenend a few years back they would have been certain it was Sandino or Noriega, or whomever the villain du jour was.

There needs to be a face on the focus of evil to rev up the war machine.

[Pastiche423]

239. They took two months?

What kind of calendar are you looking at?

The US began bombing Afghanistan October 7, 2001.

By my math, that's 27 days - not even one month.

[TomNickell]

130. We're trusting the intelligence agencies and the world's journalists.....

Truthfully, we have no real choice. You can't -really- figure out vast conspiracies with a google search.

But, these are the same people who leaked out Bush's deceptions on Iraq, Bush's incompetence before 9/11.

The CIA and FBI are made up of Real Human Beings. People who feel grief and horror at the carnage of 9/11. People with some kind of belief system. People who consider themselves patriots. Even if they largely disagree with us.

The intelligence and police agencies of much of the world have also investigated 9/11. Many of those agencies are hostile to the Bush admin.

Keep a skeptical eye, yes. But leave the histrionic Bullshit conspiracy theories with the John Birchers and the KKK.

[Sterling]

161. Yes but we can tell from what we can see.

What the general trend is. Seriously they have become so predictable we joke about what they will do months away and end up being right. The whole "what if we have to cancell elections" bit was spotted by DUers months before the floated.

In general I think the LIHOPers have been roven right on most of the important aspects of their case. No I am not talking about the most speculative aspects but the ones commonly acknowledged by all of us.

I just hope the "debunkers" are making an honest good faith attempt at discussion here and will acknowledge this is serious before it's too late. Actually it is too late.

[TomNickell]

181. Take away the 'speculative aspects'.....

of the LIHOP story and you have the mainstream Left opinion. With a bunch of self-congratulatory histrionics added.

What is accomplished by associating legitimate questions and opinions with the Conspiracy worldview of invalid logic, half-truth and wild speculation?

[stickdog]

192. Wrong. This is the internet age. Let's see the security camera footage.

Let's see the actual evidence.

Let's see what's on Flight 93's flight data recorder. Haven't plenty of NTSB reports had this type of information in the past?

Let's hear the ATC tapes for all the flights. Let's hear the Fire Department tapes at the WTC.

Let's hear the tapes of the supposed 9/11 masterminds we've interrogated.

Let's hear what happened to unknown DNA from Flight 93. Did it match up with supposed four hijakers' DNA?

Let's see who bet against American & United in the derivatives market. Who did it and what's their explanation for doing so?

WHERE IS ALL THE EVIDENCE?

[w4rma]

131. He said he helped to do it. That's enough to convince me. (nt)

[DemBones DemBones]

158. When and where did OBL say he "helped to do it"?

Are you referring to the very-conveniently-located tapes of "Fat Osama" telling the paralyzed sheik that "the brothers" had done a good job and that he was surprised that the towers fell so easily?

I know of no other "evidence" and don't accept that since 1) he never says he did it, or helped to do it, only that he was glad about it (Bobby Fischer said he was glad about it, too, and I don't think he was involved), and 2) I don't think "Fat Osama" was the real Osama. (Look at the photos, especially the differences in the noses.)

So, do you know of other evidence?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

132. certified MIHOP here

[eeyore]

154. Ohhhh man......

what have I done?

Now I'm more confused than ever!

[stickdog]

159. Of course I am!

Didn't Bin Laden sink the Maine in a bold faced, indefensible act of aggression?

Didn't Bin Laden sink the Lusitania in the exact same manner?

Didn't Bin Laden set the Reichstag fire?

Didn't Bin Laden catch us completely by surprise at Pearl Harbor?

Wasn't Bin Laden behind the Gulf of Tonkin incident and Operation Northwoods?

Didn't Bin Laden indefensibly shoot down KAL 007 in cold blood? And Flight 587? And TWA 800?

And didn't Bin Laden kill all those little kids in the Oklahoma City bombing and Waco, Texas?

So who else could it be?

[Bjornsdotter]

165. No, not at all! n/t

[frankly_fedup2]

167. No. I didn't believe it from the time they started showing that tape of .

. . him with that paralyzed guy in the tent. I'm 100% sure Iraq was not involved and I am 100% sure that Saudi Arabia was involved. I'm 100% sure that Bush lied to us and has been itching for this war since he stole the election.

On election night, 2000, I stopped by my mom and dad's. They had not even got to who one anything. Me and my dad were talking. Now he is no psychic, and I'm no psychic; however, my father's words almost verbatim were, "They better watch Florida, because brother Jeb can do a lot with his father, the ex-CIA Director to make sure Georgy porgy is elected, whether it be the truth or not." And the rest is history.

No my psychic moment happened the next day when all the recounts and controversy started. Me and my father were talking again and I said, almost verbatim, "You do realize that if Bush is appointed President, we will be at war with Iraq, after all, Saddam almost killed their Dad and they aren't going to let that go." And the rest is history . . . unfortunately.

[leanings]

169. What's the tinfoil explanation

For Atta being on the planes? I've seen several tapes of him with Zawahiri. I believe he was even present when OBL and Zawahiri held that news conference when they announced the merger of Islamic Jihad and AQ and declared war on the US. Was he even on the plane? Was he a deep cover CIA operative? Victim of mind control satellites?

For you MIHOP/LIHOP folks, what would it take to convince you that OBL planned and executed the attacks? I mean, if we captured him and he made a full and detailed confession with Power Point slides during half time at the Super Bowl you'd still claim he was coerced.

Seems to me the only folks that believe AQ and OBL didn't do it are those who absolutely don't WANT to believe it.

[Sterling]

176. Was he on the plane?

I don't know, I was not there. Were you? I don't think one way or the other frankly. I won't take the curent gov. word for it and you should not either.

Seems to me the only folks that believe AQ and OBL did it without inside help are those who absolutely WANT to believe it.

As far as I know OBL and his boys are PNAC assets. Why not? They were until it became better to have them play boogie man. Why should OBL's and his buddies saber rattling convince me they stopped serving the PNAC's interests?

[leanings]

188. "PNAC assets"?

What does that mean? Is PNAC some sort of intelligence service now? Do they have dedicated ex-fundamentalist Muslims who are now willing to sacrifice their lives in the cause of US hegemony? When did Islamic Jihad become a PNAC asset? Did PNAC have anything to do with the assassination of Sadat, or was that some sort of proto-PNAC group, like the Freemasons or something?

Were the neo-cons on the ground in Afghanistan when OBL was taking names and contact info from Afghan Arabs, a list from which he later developed AQ? How did they gain influence over Bin Laden? Why him instead of someone from one of the pro-Western factions of the muj?

Was some PNAC associated branch of DoD responsible for the warning I got when I went to Saudi in '98 that went something along the lines of "Hey, you know this Bin Laden guy's offering 10 grand for the death of any American soldier." Was that part of the conspiracy?

If the neo-cons are so pervasive, how come they failed to penetrate the government under Bush 41? Why did he tell Wolfowitz to shove it? And if they weren't able to gain influence in the first Bush administration, how were they able to do it under Clinton? Is Clinton in on this thing, or was he just duped by the all-powerful PNAC?

I'm not taking the current government's word for it. On the morning of 9/11 I clearly remember sitting on the bridge coming into DC, watching the Pentagon burn and thinking that this was probably AQ. I'm taking what facts are and have been known regarding AQ, OBL and radical Salafist terrorism from its inception up until the present day. Huge flashing neon signs point directly at Bin Laden.

[stickdog]

185. Where is the security footage of him getting on the actual crashed plane?

Once we see that, we can work backward with Atta.

Until then the better question is why was Atta snorting coke and meeting suspicious Germans with his white stripper live in girlfriend in Venice, Florida?

[leanings]

194. There's security footage

of two hijackers who'd been on the watch list since '99 as probable AQ associates. I mean, what do you expect? Group photos of the hijacker teams emailed from the terminal to the Washington Post? That still wouldn't satisfy your standard, as he's not actually "getting on the actual crashed plane." Maybe if a camera crew, no, wait, at least TWO camera crews had followed Atta into the plane, and then carefully recorded the tail numbers and the names of the crew on video. Of course, that could all be faked too.

How do you know Atta was snorting coke, or even living in Florida? By your standards, there's no evidence that Atta even existed. All that lifestyle stuff is weak, too. People are people the world over. Becoming a shaheed erases sin. You could speculate that he justified it to himself as part of his cover and therefore his sins were still in the service of Allah. Whatever.

[Sterling]

202. two hijackers who'd been on the watch list since '99 as probable AQ associ

Yes I am sure they have been preping the field for years with boogie men. Look at the guy they balme eveything in Iraq on. First he;s dead, then he,s got one leg, next thing you know he's leading the revolt in Iraq and cutting off Bergs head.

If he is one of those guys in the terra camps in afghanistan it matters:

"Becoming a shaheed"

It's not a game. if they are gonna crash themselves into a building for allah they don't want him pissed off when they get there to meet him.

[stickdog]

203. Give me a break. I can recognize Atta. I want to see the security camera

footage of him in the Boston airport.

Stop pretending that this is too much to ask. Cameras are EVERYWHERE these days.

Let's see Atta's face on some of them other than the one at Walmart. OK?

Your strawman about what might or might not convince me is NOT compelling. Show me the actual evidence that exists, and you'll convince me. Withhold everything except a few seconds of fuzzy footage showing nothing in particular, and I'll remain skeptical.

[leanings]

220. Maybe if the hijackers

had commissioned some sort of documentary that filmed and commented on the entire process leading up to the hijackings, from the moment the idea was floated until Atta got on the plane...

I don't know, man. I'm not an expert on the placement of security cams at Logan. I know the footage that was released doesn't show "nothing in particular." It shows two known terrorists getting on a plane that later hit the WTC. I'm sorry there's no close up or interviews. Maybe they'll release a security cam director's cut on DVD.

[stickdog]

227. Where's Atta?

[leanings]

230. Where are the other 15 hijackers?

Was there security camera coverage at every screening point in every airport in the country in 2001? How do you know? Were they all working? How were the recording systems set up? Did they rewind every couple of hours, just set up to capture evidence of rowdy or drunken passengers at the screening point? Did someone forget to switch the tapes on that hectic morning, maybe someone who was good at their job and who inspired some sympathy in one of the investigators who chose not to emphasize it in the report?

We can speculate all day. These are minor, minor details that folks extrapolate WAY too much from. No one is going to know everything about any event that has or will ever take place in the history of man. It's impossible, and there will always be things to pick at. I prefer to focus on major details, like video tape of two known terrorists getting on the plane, recordings of transmissions from the cockpit with a ME accent, admissions by the prime suspect and most wanted known terrorist in the world on video tape that he was responsible for the event in question, stuff like that...

I'm off to bed. G'night.

[stickdog]

231. Good question. Where the fuck are they? While you are at, tell us

who the fuck they are and who was interviewed about what to prove that.

Was the unknown DNA found in the field where Flight 93 crashed a match for the supposed terrorists on Flight 93?

What about all the reports of hijackers who were still alive? Were these ever sorted out? How were their identities stolen and by whom? Who were the real hijackers?

[Sterling]

195. I was wondering if he actually had weapons at all?

They screened him and found none. Why should I take that to mean they made a mistake? That could very easily re enforce the idea that they were patsys.

[leanings]

200. Leathermans, knives with blades of less than 4 inches, mace

all these things were allowed in carry-on luggage pre-9/11.

[Sterling]

204. Were they found on the men who were searched?

That would be important to know I think.

[leanings]

210. Unknown

But something set off metal detectors.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3915471.stm

It would have been more convenient if the screeners had searched the luggage, removed any knives that they found, held them up in front of the cameras and put them back. Unfortunately, they didn't.

[stickdog]

214. Something that WASN'T consficated.

How many times has that happened to you or a friend?

I wonder, can't they interview these security guards, show them the tape and get their statements on record about what it was that set off these alarms?

Why is that too much to ask?

[leanings]

216. I carried a multi tool

on planes all the time pre-9/11. I don't recall ever getting stopped. What's the point here? Were the security screeners in on it too, or were the hijackers simply under the impression that they were going to a gamers convention or something?

I'm sure the screeners were interviewed, and I'm sure the results of those interviews are out there somewhere, maybe in the report. I don't really need to see them, because it's an incredibly minor point for me. Seek them if you wish.

[stickdog]

223. But this info is NOT in the fucking report! Which is my whole point.

They provide us with a tiny slice of supposed evidence that leaves us with more questions than answers. So we ask for the rest of the picture -- just the simplest things that any beginning police detective would immediately ask.

But we don't get the rest of the picture. Why not? Why are we given this meaningless slice that leaves us with a dozen MORE unanswered questions that could, should, MUST HAVE BEEN answered by any legitimate rudimentary investigation?

[TomNickell]

186. Can you prove the Earth is round? Seriously.

Can you prove HIV causes Aids? That Sex causes babies? That the Capitol of France is Paris? That the boiling point of water is 212 F?

Of your own knowledge? Without consulting a reference book. Or the encyclopedia. You -have- to appeal to authority on most things.

Same here. Absent an inconceivably large and impossibly complex conspiracy, the basic story has to be basically true.

-READ- the 9/11 commission report and the Richard Clarke book. Then come back and tell us what evidence there is.

[Sterling]

193. You are not serious are you?

Is the world being round really that much of a mystery to you? What about gravity? I don't want to have to school you on the birds and bees here for christs sakes man. Ask your mommy or daddy please, this is not the proper place.

"READ- the 9/11 commission report and the Richard Clarke book. Then come back and tell us what evidence there is."

I agree start there don't stop, that's only part of the story.

[stickdog]

196. Nice try. Thousands of pieces of physical evidence exist or existed.

NONE OF IT HAS BEEN SHARED WITH US and 99% of it wasn't even shared with the 9/11 Cover Up Commission.

WHY CAN'T WE SEE THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?

[TomNickell]

257. Have you seen the physical evidence that.....

the earth is round. The raw data proving that HIV causes AIDS? The X-Ray diffraction data proving DNA is a double helix?

Of course not. It is complex and a complex argument. We rely on the integrity of the people who have invested their lives in study of these questions. And on the institutions.

With a healthy dose of skepticism, of course.

Conspiracy Hobbyism goes well beyond healthy skepticism.

How do you know the 9/11 commission hasn't seen the relevant evidence? Have you even read the report?

Didn't think so.

[VoteDemocratic2004]

201. I say that the Bush Bunch was behind 9/11

:bounce:

[rumguy]

205. He admitted to it on tape

and he's never denied it, nor has his family...

[Sterling]

208. Plz read the thread before you post next time.

I wont tell you why, if you read the thread you will know why, and you are welcome.

[rumguy]

209. I've heard the fat Osamoa argument and I don't buy it

Is there something new?

[stickdog]

213. So is Osama fat, thin or just suffering from an eating disorder? (nt)

[rumguy]

215. If he's been framed how come he or his family have not spoken up?

And the pictures and videos we see of Osama have been shot at different times - sometimes years apart.

On top of that, there are stories of him possibly being sick - some sicknesses can cause puffiness in the face and water gain. Bottom line: there's not much of a difference anyway...hardly a difference.

[stickdog]

224. What kind of a ridiculous question is that? Plenty of his family members

are on record as saying they think he was framed for 9/11. And I don't know ANY who are on record as saying he's guilty. Do you?

[Djinn]

235. the fact that almost every single member of his family

disowned him may have had something to do with that? Osama would be MAD to deny it now as it's proven to be a fantastic propaganda coup - ie "look what we did to the great satan"

Personally when I was woken in the wee hours to watch the whole thing happen my first thoughts were actually "Wahhabi nuts" - since then a lot of stuff doesn't add up and frankly I don't beleive much the government tells me - call me a cynic?

Whether Osama was directly involved with planning or just a financier or inspiration or none of the aboev I really don't know how anyone could claim those videos aren't spurious even if he had stacked on the weight (or puffed up) it just doesn't look like him.

[stickdog]

207. An introduction to 9/11 coincidences by my friend, JackRiddler

Starting right now, Americans can figure out just what chumps they’ve been taken for. The oddities add up and you don't go home to TiVo. Or else you do: you can choose to graduate from the School of Coincidence. Let me introduce you to the syllabus.

Let's talk about the theory of Luck, as it was coined by Mindy Kleinberg, who lost her husband at Cantor Fitzgerald, in her testimony before the Cover-Up Commission.

Just by coincidence the cops and spooks of Germany, the United States and Israel followed around the alleged hijackers - not just the two you have heard of, if you’ve been following it, not just the San Diego boys, no. Nearly all of the later hijackers were under surveillance and just by coincidence, they all got under the radar. Theory of luck.

Just by coincidence, Mohamed Atta and his buddy Marwan Shehhi learned to fly at a CIA front that imported drugs into Florida. Just by coincidence, you haven’t read that in the New York Times, you’re getting it from me, the coincidence theorist (and from madcowprod.com).

Just by coincidence, the U.S. government got multiple warnings from a dozen countries in the weeks before 9/11 that when put together add up to a plot to hijack planes and crash them into New York on Sept. 11. Just by coincidence, no one put these together in time. No one could have imagined it! How many times have you heard that?

Just by coincidence, warnings were given to a mayor, to some generals, to other people not to fly on Sept. 11. Just by coincidence, some cancelled their travel plans, some called the FBI and warned about what would happen, and some placed bets against the airlines on the stock markets.

Just by coincidence, some of them spoke out after the attacks. Just by coincidence, you didn’t read that in the New York Times. Instead, you’re hearing it for the first time from me, the coincidence theorist.

Just by coincidence, the U.S. military planned and staged wargames on Sept. 11. Just by coincidence, the scenarios for these exercises involved multiple hijackings of commercial airliners in domestic airspace and errant planes crashing into important buildings. Just by coincidence, these appear to have tied up the air force and caused a complete failure of longstanding standard air defense procedures, so that the 9/11 flights were not intercepted. You haven’t read that in the papers either, but just by coincidence I read it in Aviation Week and on the military sites.

Just by coincidence, the U.S. chain of command did not react during the actual attacks. Just by coincidence, Bush, Rumsfeld and Gen. Myers by their own admission did nothing that morning, looking to all the world as though they wanted it to go ahead and happen. You saw that on TV, but you didn’t think about it, did you?

Just by coincidence, the Project for a New American Century and other thinktank bigbrains planned an aggressive policy for world domination starting with a war in Iraq, and just by coincidence they admitted they’d never sell it to the American people without a new Pearl Harbor. Just by coincidence, PNAC took power in a stolen election and today call themselves the Bush administration. Just by coincidence, they planned a domestic police state and a plundering of the Treasury. Just by coincidence, they got their new Pearl Harbor. Just by coincidence they went ahead and implemented their plans that would have otherwise been impossible.

How much coincidence are you willing to take? All of them, of course. Because only coincidence is possible. Because Sept. 11 changed the world. Because we all have to obey what they say 9/11 told us. The lessons.

Hey, I remember when I was in school they still taught the Declaration of Independence. I wonder if they still do. It started after the preamble with the words, we hold these truths to be self-evident. Now that’s done. Now we hold these wars to be self-evident. A war in Afghanistan, because that’s where them that done it come from, and because the oil and the poppies are sweet. A war in Iraq, because, as we all know, that’s where them that done it don’t come from, but you know they would have done it if they could have and we gotta stop them before they can because they might and then we’ll be cooked, and you know the oil is so sweet. A war on countries to be named later, because you know they will be named and they all hate our freedoms, don't they?

So what’s next? A war on your freedoms, because you know you were getting pretty uppity and lazy and fat. A war for your body and mind, because that’s what you are still good for. A war forever, because war is business and business is war, or it’s all a bust. Just the war they said they wanted. Just by coincidence.

[bobbyboucher]

247. What? No smartass, strawmen laden replies

from the usual true believers?

[Swamp Rat]

226. Bush&Co and their Saudi friends did it...

and they're still raking in the money right under our noses. Even if someome showed me actual proof that Shrubya was innocent, I still BLAME him 100% for every American killed since January 2001. Now, add torture, rape and pedophilia and genocide of Afghans, Iraqis, and others to the list. Everyone associated with Bush&Co (the media, GOP, and Bush supporters/voters) that have helped them carry out these crimes are just as guilty.

[bobbyboucher]

248. That's a true to life.....

snooze.

Nice effort.

[Swamp Rat]

251. nite nite snoozyhead

Don't vote for Bush! He's an alien lizard!

[bobbyboucher]

252. Don't vote for the strawman,

Mensa.

[Swamp Rat]

254. What's Mensa professor?

[bobbyboucher]

255. Mensa professor?

One smart mofo I would guess.

[Hippo_Tron]

228. I don't know and sorta don't care, BUSH SUCKS regardless

LIHOP/MIHOP/or neither he is still a war criminal.

[leesa]

233. I'm not even 5% convinced that bin Laden did it.

Far more evidence appears to point in the direction of this maladministration and/or certain other interested countries.

[LunaC]

238. Circumstantially, Bin Laden appears to have been on the CIA payroll

So far, no one has offered a plausible explanation for the following sequence of events:

In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


Meanwhile, the U.S. Embassy in the UAE received a call that Bin Laden supporters were in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives. It was rumored that Bin Laden was interested in hijacking U.S. aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/images/04/10/whitehouse.pdf


In June 2001 the decades-old procedure for a quick response by the nation’s air defense was changed. NORAD’s military commanders could no longer issue the command to launch fighter jets because approval had to be sought from the civilian Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing7/for_the_record_ashley.pdf


In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


In September 2001 the "catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the White House members of the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked with U.S. aircraft as Rumsfeld sat passive and unresponsive. Immediately, the finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911 hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell. Pakistan's ISI also had a long-standing working relationship with the CIA.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=8830
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1266317,00.html


In October 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War On Terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting


Shortly afterwards, public focus was diverted to Iraq. You already know the rest of the story.


For details on the PNAC coup of the White House see "The Whispering Campaign" link below.

[wordout]

244. kick!

http://www.vaticanassassins.org/ny_attack.htm

[bluestateguy]

250. I have my limits when it comes to conspiracy theories

The video of him and his associates in Kandahar from 2001 makes the case pretty clear. If somebody can produce evidence that the tapes were "doctored", I'm listening, but I have not heard any.

[bobbyboucher]

253. What does Binny weigh anyways?

What is he, 6'6", 275?