What Would Happen If China

[Zorra]

mounted a full scale, "blitzkrieg" type invasion of the west coast of the US tomorrow? Using ground, air, and sea forces?

It seems to me that our forces are and resources are extremely depleted, and most of our troops are deployed overseas. An invasion by a powerful army on the west coast right now could inflict severe widespread damage in a hurry, and a lot of ground could be conquered by a which could mean a long term war to repel an invasion. A large portion of our country could be rapidly devastated and occupied.

I realize that this is pretty unlikely, but it seems that Bu$h has ravaged our defense capabilities to the point where we can no longer effectively protect our own borders and people from an invasion.

[Massacure]

1. The U.S. would see them comming

And Mobilize the Airforce and Navy. The Airfoce and Navy don't have much to do with Iraq compared to the Marines and Army.

[HFishbine]

2. We'd go

Nukular.

[DenverDem]

3. China couldn't do that to Taiwan, much less cross the Pacific.

They have neither the air nor sea equipment to do it.

[Zorra]

23. People in Taiwan seem to be expressing concern.

I'd really feel better if the US troops that are in Iraq were still on American soil. It just doesn't make any sense to me that they are fighting over there against a country that was no threat to us. Bu$h really damaged our military by giving the order to invade Iraq for no good reason.

Editorial: China's military threat no illusion
Friday, Jul 09, 2004,Page 8

Anyone who thinks the Chinese military threat against Taiwan is merely in the minds of the Taiwanese people, or that the situation is no one else's concern, couldn't be more wrong.

In a defense white paper released by the Japanese government on July 6, a strong emphasis was placed on the need for Japan to upgrade its defense capability in the face of the rapid modernization of the Chinese People's Liberation Army.

The white paper pointed to concerns over China's increasing military budget -- as high as 11 percent of the country's annual budget by this year -- and the frequent movements by Chinese navy vessels in Japan's exclusive economic zones. For those in this country, namely the pan-blue camp, who continue to see no dire need for Taiwan to upgrade its defense capabilities, Japan's white paper should come as a wake-up call. The threat posed by China is so far reaching that it should be a concern for the communist giant's neighbors. China's military threat has become a regional problem that should be dealt with collectively by all countries in East and Southeast Asia. Cooperation is needed to counter the rise of China's military.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/07/09/2003178277

[jayfish]

29. It's Not That China Doesn't Have A Dangerous Military,...

it's that they have minimal heavy-lift capability. What that basically means is that they cannot, easily, move large numbers of troops across water. The Chinese simply could not invade the US using ground forces. If they really wanted Taiwan and decided to attack we would probably see something similar to the way that the US fought the first Gulf War. Taiwan would be in ruins, sue for peace and be made one with China. Without sustained air and missile bombardment to soften up the Taiwanese defenses, any attempt to move troops across the straight would be a disaster for China. Even after that, if they tried to move troops across the straight, they would be easy pickings for US naval air-power. The US would probably be forced to act if China attempted a ground invasion. If the attack came from China's air and missile forces only it would be toss-up as to whether the US would get involved.

Jay

[Literate Tar Heel]

4. well, with surveillance as technologically advanced as it is

it would be next to impossible for them to get any real number of ground troops over here without us noticing well before they got here (they'd have to come by ship if we're talking invasion-size numbers) ... and while China has a huge population and army, I don't think they're yet to the point where they could coordinate an attack of that magnitude to take place within a day or two thousands of miles away with any hope of succeeding ... but I'm no military expert either

[Zorra]

20. That makes sense. I agree.

I wonder how many active duty troops we still have left that are actually on US soil?

I guess I'm overly concerned about the fact that Bu$h has substantially weakened our defense capabilities by invading Iraq for no justifiable reason.

[Bucky]

5. (raising hand) We'd, um, fight against the invaders?

Bush has played fast and loose with our standing army. We've not really been on a true war economy since 1945. I'm pretty sure China couldn't project big enough invasion force across the Pacific ocean without our SIGINT and ELINT spotting the problem first.

[NWHarkness]

8. Wouldn't that make us terrists?

[Zorra]

18. Yes. Bu$h has played fast and loose with our standing army.

He has unnecessarily weakened our defense capabilities in a senseless war. Our troops are stretched thin, are scattered all over the globe, we have spent a gazillion dollars on the war, and National Guard and all other troop enlistment is down.

[Individualist]

6. Chimpy would use it

as an excuse to attack Syria.

[Djinn]

22. Good point

if anyone tried to attack the US they'd fail, no-one has the military capabilty, and it would then be used to justify an attack on the next middle eastern country to get a US sponsored "extreme make-over"

[Zorra]

25. The Chinese have been escalating a rapid military buildup and

modernization program in response to US aggression related to the invasion of Iraq.

By invading Iraq, Bu$h has caused a very powerful country with massive resources and manpower to feel the need to be competitive with the US in military strength.

By going to war because, he said, invading Iraq has made America safer, he has actually made us far less safe. Bu$h's "war is peace" strategy does not seem to be working.

U.S.: China reassessing its military strategy
Beijing has taken notice of U.S. military performance in IraqThe Associated Press
Updated: 3:39 a.m. ET May 31, 2004

WASHINGTON - China is reassessing how it would counteract the U.S. military in a potential conflict over Taiwan, based on what it saw in the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the Pentagon says
snip------
Other aspects of the Iraq war have reinforced the Chinese belief that the United States’ long-range strategy is to dominate Asia by containing the growth of Chinese power, the report said. These include recent Pentagon decisions to base long-range bombers, cruise missiles and nuclear attack submarines to the Pacific island of Guam — moves related in part to the Iraq conflict.

“China’s leaders appear to have concluded that the net effect of the U.S.-led campaign (against terrorism) has been further encirclement of China,” specifically by placing U.S. military forces in Uzbekistan and other Central Asian nations, and strengthening relations with Pakistan and India, the report said

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5103836/

[Djinn]

26. escalating and maybe one day

they'd have the capability but they absolutely don't at the moment.

[Zorra]

27. The invasion of Iraq apparently was the cause of this escalation.

US military aggression is causing an arms buildup. Bu$h and the PNAC failed to understand the comprehensive consequences of invading Iraq. Bu$h's assertion that the invasion and occupation of Iraq has made America safer lacks credibility.

I agree that the Chinese do not have, (at least I hope they don't have), the capability to invade the US right now, and do not have the desire to do so.

But did Bu$h create a potential monster by invading Iraq? Was it his intention to begin another Cold War?

WASHINGTON - China is reassessing how it would counteract the U.S. military in a potential conflict over Taiwan, based on what it saw in the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the Pentagon says.
snip-------
Other aspects of the Iraq war have reinforced the Chinese belief that the United States’ long-range strategy is to dominate Asia by containing the growth of Chinese power, the report said. These include recent Pentagon decisions to base long-range bombers, cruise missiles and nuclear attack submarines to the Pacific island of Guam —moves related in part to the Iraq conflict.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5103836/

[7th_Sephiroth]

7. if america saw a chineese invasion force en masse on rte to america

they would have subs firing cruise missels hit them so fast they would never see it coming

[bemildred]

9. This is a ludicrous idea.

Barney the Dinosaur is as likely to invade our West Coast
as China. They have not the means, and had they they means,
we would turn them into green glass before they got here, that
is what WMD are all about.

[Old and In the Way]

10. Exactly...just how would they carry it out? Junks?

China spends $20BB a year on Defense....compared to our $400BB.

And the Pacific Fleet is in Hong Kong Harbor on a regular basis, well, they were. Perhaps if I was Chinese and knowing our recent invasion/occupation, I might be a tad more concerned about our intentions.

Lots of things to worry about in this would....a Chinese invasion isn't one of them.

[Zorra]

13. Are you sure?

Text: U.S. Still Ahead of China in Military Capabilities Says Report
Following is the text from the October 10 Congressional Record:
snip---------

The report also does an excellent job of comparing Chinese new conventional weapons to American capabilities, suggesting that in most cases--with some critical exceptions--American forces still retain a tactical and strategic edge. For example, the report mentions the potential threat from a nuclear armed SS-N-22, an anti-ship cruise missile, and the superior capabilities of the Su-27 fighter aircraft. Obviously, the United States should not be complacent. The Chinese are, for the first time in modern history, developing a capability to project air and naval forces beyond their coastal areas. The United States needs to seek ways to address any threat to American interests as a result of that capability not only through pursuing our own military modernization program but also through a strategic dialogue with China which reassures China that we have a shared desire in regional stability. Indeed, in many ways, initiating a productive diplomatic dialogue with China on Asian security may be more difficult than maintaining our qualitative edge on power projection.

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-c168.html

[Johnyawl]

11. What would happen if Mars really did attack us?

That's about as logical a question as what you're asking.

China doesn't even have the military capability to mount a successful, full scale, "blitzkrieg" type invasion of Taiwan. To even suggest that they could get to the West Coast of the US is ludicrous. They have no deep water landing craft that are capable of delivering an invasion this far; they have no long range transport aircraft to deliver either troops of material 12,000 miles; they have no long range bombers that are capable of supporting an invasion 12,000 miles from their bases, nor do they have any Aircraft carriers that could provide air cover to such an invasion.

And even if they did have all those things, they would have no way of protecting their armada from a single nuclear missle.


I'm sure there are repugs over in freeperville who are laughing themselves silly, and passing this thread around as an example of how stupid and uninformed DUers are.

[Zorra]

16. I am not concerned about what freepers think. I am concerned with

the weakening of our domestic armed forces and defense capabilities by the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I said that it was unlikely, and the question was theoretical.

Are you an expert in Chinese military capabilities?

Thank you for your informed input.

Text: U.S. Still Ahead of China in Military Capabilities Says Report
Following is the text from the October 10 Congressional Record:
CHINA'S CONVENTIONAL FORCE MILITARY MODERNIZATION
(Senate - October 10, 2000)

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-c168.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. I guess you've missed the threads about the 7 carrier battle groups...

...that sailed to a point in the Pacific near Taiwan?

Without a comparable or better Navy, the Chines will never be able to do what you suggested. Even the idea of the Chinese invading Taiwan is a pretty remote prospect at the current time.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Wonder if they will be redeployed so as to be closer to Iran?

[stavka]

14. They can't

They lack the fleet and airlift capacity to even invade Taiwan....

A better question would be, "What if North Korea is really serious?" - and sees the current state of military affairs as their last gasp of glory and heads south, counting on the US not using nukes to stop them.

[Zorra]

17. The Japanese are expressing concern.

Japan growing wary of China's military buildup
REUTERS , Tokyo
Wednesday, Jul 07, 2004,Page 5

China's increasingly high-tech military capabilities need to be watched closely, along with Beijing's marine research near Japan's exclusive economic zone, the Japanese government said in a defense white paper yesterday.

"China is seeking to shift the emphasis in its military forces from `quantity' to `quality,' moving to a position where it will have a nucleus of regular forces capable of coping with modern warfare," the annual report said.

"China has been modernizing its nuclear and missile forces as well as its naval and air forces. Careful deliberation should go into determining whether the objective of this modernization exceeds the scope necessary for the defense of China, and future developments in this area merit special attention," it added.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/07/2003178020

The main point of my post was to point out the fact that an unnecessary war has depleted our armed forces and our defense capabilities.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Hey, we still have the Salvation Army and Cub Scouts stateside. So

you rest easy now.

[Zorra]

21. LOL. Thanks. I feel so much safer now.

[LiberalTechie1337]

24. We could stop 'em

I am pretty sure that the Chinese do not have the naval capablities do mount an offensive against the US. Their fight would have to be land-based. Also, satalite intel would show increased military activity long before the Chinese even left port (unless our assets are all tied down trying to fabricate a justification for the Iraq invasion)

[Zorra]

32. We could, but, after bungling Iraq so badly, can we trust Bu$h to make

the right decisions in the face of an invasion?

Let's face it, we went to Iraq because our pResident and Defense Dept. officials, such as Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc., invaded Iraq on faulty Intelligence. They freely admit this, and use it as an excuse. (Whoops, sorry, heh-heh, faulty Intelligence, lousy CIA). They made enormous mistakes and miscalculations regarding a multitude of aspects concerning the invasion and occupation of Iraq. The Iraqis are not throwing flowers at our troops, they are shooting at them. Our troops are running out of ammo, their numbers are depleted, and they are getting worn out and morale is low. Now enlistment is down in all branches of the armed services, including the National Guard. And the war is costing a billion dollars a day.

My point here is that you can have all the physical weaponry capabilities in the world, but if your leaders are incompetent, those weapons might not do you any good. A poorly equipped fighting force with shrewd leaders might be able to overcome a better equipped fighting force with incompetent leaders. If your national leaders make the wrong decisions, no one is there to frag them, take over, and save your ass from their stupidity.

The name Custer comes to mind for some reason. Charlie also.

My point is: How can we trust our national leadership to defend us if we were actually attacked by an invading force? What if their decisions were as bad as the ones they made about Iraq? Or their failure to prevent 9/11? (Oh, yeah - whoops, sorry, we relied on faulty Intelligence).

We might be toast.

Does anyone honestly trust Bu$h and the current administration to make the correct decisions to counteract a real imminent threat, like an invasion? What if China and Taiwan clash - what if Bu$h and Rummy make the same type of miscalculations and use the same type of poor planning that they made in Iraq regarding an invasion, or a clash between Taiwan and China?

(Whoops, sorry, heh-heh, we relied on faulty Intelligence.)

After the repeated incompetence that they have displayed, do you trust Bu$h, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, etc. to actually make the correct decisions in defending our nation or entering into another armed conflict?

I sure as hell don't.

The thought is genuinely frightening.

Maybe China could successfully invade us after all.;-)

(Whoops, sorry, faulty Intelligence. It's all the CIA's fault)

[LiberalTechie1337]

33. Understood, but

the question was regarding a possible invasion by China. Given there naval capablilites this is practicly impossible, regardless of who is running the military here.

In theory, the Chinese could take advantage of our wide open borders and over time sneak a formidale size force into the country. Basicly what happens with the undocumented immigrants, with more organization and purpose. This is the threat that really scares me.

[AngryAmish]

28. Ditka wins

Singlehandedly. But if it was only mini-Ditka, I am not so sure.

[troublemaker]

30. They would have to be strong swimmers!

China cannot mount an invasion of the US. They can't even mount an invasion of Taiwan! (Their navy ain't much)

[Yupster]

31. There would be a lot

of drowning Chinese soldiers swimming above sunken ships in the Pacific Ocean.

[candy331]

35. Sooner or later you must know that that the US will not be the

world's only superpower and may not now be for all we know. World powers have come on stage and gone Egypt,Babylon Greece, MedoPersia, Rome all gone and so will this one. A pity ones know better but still fool themselves into believing the swift always win the race. Whether it be China/who or perhaps The Lord Almighty, that day will surely come and it just may be sooner than even thinkable w/o a dose of nerve tonic.

[guitar man]

34. That would mean

They wouldn't have to ship all that cheap-ass crap so far to get it to Wal-Mart.

[Cleita]

36. I doubt it unless Bush says or does something to

make them think it's them or us. They have too much economic interests that are tied to us. Ever notice that everything you buy anymore is made in China?