Iraqi Resistance Kills 33 US Soldiers in Ramadi

[TNOE]

Ooops - sorry - got distracted and forgot the link! http://rense.com/general54/irrq.htm

I for one am much more inclined to believe this report than our media:

Snip:
Free Arab Voice Editors Note: We remind our viewers that Mafkarat al-Islam has reporters on the ground with the Iraqi resistance. these reports are first hand accounts of the events. Translated from their original Arabic, they are published uncut and uncensored.

Snip:
At least 14 Americans were killed in ar-Ramadi yesterday as a day of fierce and heavy fighting that raged from about 11:00am local time until sunset got under way.

The correspondent of Mafkarat al-Islam in the city reported that the clashes began when a group of Resistance fighters ambushed an American patrol consisting of four Humvees and a number of foot soldiers. Resistance fighters pounded the Humvees with rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) destroying all of them and sparking a battle on al-Ishrin (1920) Street that lasted until sunset as US reinforcements poured into the area.

The American side threw Apache helicopters and tanks into the fray but in the end 14 US troops were killed and eight others wounded, most of them the troops who were aboard the Humvees that were attacked during the morning.

[Worst Username Ever]

1. I think this would be too big to hide...

and I think US media is starting to focus more on the bad parts of Bush, until I see it here I am going to take this with a grain of salt...

[TNOE]

8. You don't really think we're only losing 1-2-3 soldiers a day

do you? I have NEVER believed that and still don't. We are losing guys like crazy, of that I have no doubt.

[jayfish]

11. Not Difficult To Hide At All. (sorry, reply is to shylock)

Since there is no "credible" news source on the ground, it would be simple to hide 33 deaths. Put the bodies on ice and add one KIA soldier to each I.A.D. or R.P.G. incident 33 times. Easy as pie.

Jay

[Bucky]

19. I think their units would mind and raise quite a stink about it

The info on who died, and in what battles and where, is available online to troops freshly out of the field. If you knew your buddy was killed in Fallujah and on your next leave you see in the NY Times website that he stepped down a manhole in Ft Dix, you'd call Ted Koppel right away.

[Worst Username Ever]

25. Agreed.

If we are really "losing guys like crazy" (I personally beleive that losing 2-3 guys a day IS losing people like crazy), you have to silence a lot more people than just those that report to the media. Lots of personal letters and emails heading back and forth, lots of people returning/not returning for leave, and troops rotate in and out frequently. It would be pretty difficult to hide large numbers of soldiers from their families for any extended period fo time.

[jayfish]

37. What Would Ted's Response Be?

And after the ABC incident where the troops were "disciplined" for speaking out, I'm not so sure the troops will be calling the media anytime soon.


Jay

[vincent_vega_lives]

32. Thats plenty

Belive me there is no cover-up. This coming from someone who has a friend who had to tell a mother and father their 18 year old son was killed in Afganistan.

[movonne]

2. Link please!!!

[Karenina]

3. Please TNOE, post a link.

This report says 14 and your thread title says 33. Do clear up the confusion for us. Thanx.

[ps1074]

4. I heard

14 wounded on the news the other day. 14 killed will be too much to hide.

[htuttle]

5. I've been trying to track various reports from 'mujahideen' groups...

...since the US invaded Afghanistan.

What I've found is that most of the reports of battles pretty much track other reports. The battles reported almost always did happen. When they report helicopter downings, for example, they almost always DID take down a helicopter (be it crashed or forced to withdraw and land 'hard').

One thing that I've found to be less accurate are the casualty counts. I think what is happening a lot of times is that a soldier will get hit and the 'mujahideen' side will assume they were killed. Oftentimes, the soldier is only wounded in reality. Also, I think that some part of the time, non-US troops are mistaken as US troops.

So, given all that, I'd say I think the battle described did occur, but I'd bet that a fairly large proportion of those reported killed were wounded instead.

[ROC]

6. Sounds like a real battle...

in the remote and unlikely chance that it actually happened. How about a link? One that give the Iraqi casualties.

[LittleApple81]

7. I tend not to believe these reports. There is so much lying on both

sides but this looks like too many bodies to hide.

[Bucky]

9. Is it "33" or 14?

Where does that 33 in your subject line come from?

[TNOE]

10. Different Battles

in the now updated post - with link.

[Jo March]

12. 16 + 14 + 3 = 33

I think that is where the poster is coming up with that number. I read the articles on the link and each mention different battles/incidents.

I am convinced that we are losing many more soldiers than the media is reporting. I'm sure that the military is downplaying the deaths as well.

I'll be convinced when I see it on a legit news site (if there is one).

[TNOE]

16. Agree - "if" there is one

and I'm not so sure anymore. Welcome to DU by the way :hi:

Remember in the 1st Gulf War when they told us only a few soldiers had died and 10 years later we learn it was 10,000?

[Bucky]

15. Looks like the same battle to me.

The "33 in Ramadi" comes from the Rense.com source. But I don't see the math for 33. It says in the lead line:

At least 14 Americans were killed in ar-Ramadi yesterday as a day of fierce and heavy fighting that raged from about 11:00am local time until sunset got under way.

Then it repeats and clarifies that info later, saying:

in the end 14 US troops were killed and eight others wounded, most of them the troops who were aboard the Humvees that were attacked during the morning.

But those are the same 14. It also mentions three killed in a helicopter crash, but those seem to be part of the 14, too. Then it adds on:

Resistance Kills Seven US Sharpshooters
In another incident, as the battle raged, a group of US snipers took up positions on the third floor of a building opposite the local American aggressor headquarters set up in the Republican Palace, located behind the Chamber of Commerce. The American sharpshooters positioned to provide covering fire for the US headquarters picked off people in the nearby areas.

So that's 21 (or possibly 24, but I'm sure the three in the chopper were part of the 14. And I'm not sure the 7 on the roof were not part of the 14. Next they report:

According to the correspondent of Mafkarat al-Islam eyewitnesses reported that 16 Americans were killed by an Iraqi Resistance car bomb in Ramadi as they tried to launch a flanking attack on Resistance fighters engaged nearby.

But the description makes it clear this is the same attack that killed the 14 above, but with a bigger body count.

So we have 14 or 16 or 21 or 24 dead. Maybe. Not 33, but still just as pointless. It's probably worth noting that the Boston Globe is reporting that as just two deaths. I think I'll stick with Juan Cole's trust in the Globe over Rense.com

[Marvelous_Smarty]

17. As a former infantryman,

the story has a lot of holes in it regarding tactics and the deployment of some of the soldiers.

Also, there is no way the military could hide that many bodies and release them one at a time. Too many people would know. Army units are very tight knit groups and would not stand for something like this.

There may have been a fireifight and a few casualties but not as many as reported at the link.

[TNOE]

21. Why couldn't they

How would the media know? They are all hiding out in Baghdad, the few that are there.

The military simply reports 14 wounded, 2 killed and boom, that's what hits the papers - and when they eventually contact the two families - all 14 families figures their son/daughter was one of the two. There's no way to verify.

[Marvelous_Smarty]

The Media would know because the soldiers would know.

Army companies usually number about 200 men. You can not keep a secret there. Soldiers have friends in other companies in their battalion. So the battalion would know and so on.

Another thing, soldiers are very touchy about respect or their fallen comrades. If one of my friends died, his mom/dad/wife would here from me.

If it was one of the soldiers in my squad that as a sargeant I was responsible, he was going to get home no matter what and not be put on ice until it was convenient. Other NCOs would feel the same.

It would be impossible to do something like that.

[PsN2Wind]

31. Maybe I'm picking nits here

but as a former infantryman shouldn't you know how to spell sergeant?

[Marvelous_Smarty]

35. Well,

spelling takes a hit when typing with finger and holding a 12 in. grilled chicken sub from Subway.

No big deal about the nit picking though. Seems to be alot of that going on until, what is it? 500, 700 posts?

[sleipnir]

13. Rense is about as believable as The Moonie Times or the Whore Post

Sorry to bring it up, but take anything posted on Rense with a giant grain of salt. They're somewhat akin to Drudge, in that they post hyperbole and sensational stories to get people to visit their site. It's a major tin-foil-hat site, that maybe gets the story right 1 out of 20 times.

[TNOE]

14. I expected that

even though Rense publishes Will Pitt and Bev Harris, etc.

You are free to believe what you want to believe of course, but don't pretent to be the "know all" when it comes to matters you have not studied or have any knowledge of whatsoever.

Rense is a true "fair and balanced" journailist - he does put it all out there and lets the reader decide.

[Marvelous_Smarty]

18. Fair Enough and

I have decided he is full of shit. :)

[StandUpGuy]

39. who is ?

Rense or Will Pitt.

or Rense for publishing Will Pitt ?!?

[ParisFrance]

26. I see if we can no long trust our government then we need a new one

[TNOE]

27. Most Definitely

And our Bill of Rights tell us to do just that.

[neverborn]

30. Rense is a true journalist?

He's too busy searching for aliens. Rense is a moran.

[sleipnir]

36. Rense should take your advise.

Don't pretend to be a "know it all," which is about all he does.

If being "fair and balanced" means reporting unsubstantiated crap, then sure, Rense wins the prize. There are certain standards that I hold my on-line news sources to, and Rense consistently fails when it comes to "breaking news" and "scoops."

If the aliens do come down, land and take over the world, then I'll happily eat my hat, but until then I stand by my words that Rense is nothing more than a collection of questionable stories at best.

[TNOE]

38. Sleipnir

Certainly with the probability of over 7 TRILLION planets in the Universe you don't think we're the only beings God created do you?

That would certainly make God a miserable failure after umpteen thousands of years that we're the best, smartest he/she's got. Nah. We're the damn kidnegardners who can't get it right - we are still barbarians who choose war over peace, and weapons over diplomacy. We barely have second thoughts on "nuking" another country because we feel like it without even a thought as to the long-term destruction we would be reigning on ourselves. We are all such enlightened beings that we would never abuse or torture prisoners. Most on this planet couldn't find their brains if they were handed to them on a silver platter. The Universe is a very wide landscape and obviously you've never had enough curiousity to study it. Go ahead, keep drinking the Kool-Aid and the Aspartame.... you are getting sleepy, very, very sleepy, there are no UFO's, only hundreds of thousands spot them a year but think as your Government tells you to think..... and all will be well.

But I'll bookmark this thread, and when hat-eating time comes - I'll remind you.

[sleipnir]

41. I've got a nice derby hat sitting on my desk.

I don't doubt that there is life, even intelligent life out there in the universe. But I can't see that life wanting to deal with a substandard, self-defeating species such as our selves. Hell, if I could travel the galaxy and other universes, one of the last places I'd go would be Earth. I feel that it's analogous to spending your entire life studying a single colony of ants. The ants sure as hell aren't going to comprehend you and it's unlikely you'll get much out of the ants, except for a few interesting lower order social structure observations. Pretty much a waste of time, especially if you have some kick ass space craft.

I have serious misgivings about 97% of all UFO reports. I don't doubt that our planet has probably been visited now or anytime in the past by extraterrestrial forms. But I hardly believe they are conspiring to take over and rule the world.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. Ever get lost while driving and end up in a town or neighborhood....

...that looks life-threatening? How do you know one or more aliens hasn't stumbled on our planet under similar circumstances? There are billions of stars out there...how could any race possibly know them all?

I have no opinion about the rest of your remarks other than to say that 95% of the time, particularly in regards to news regarding the U. S., he is posting the works of others verbatim. If you have an issue with the veracity of the authors whose work is being posted, you should contact them directly. I suggest that you start with Will Pitt and Bev Harris since they seem to be easily accessible on this forum.

[NewJeffCT]

20. they had a similar story several months back...

I don't think that one panned out, either. This was during bloody April when we had al-Sadr actively under siege.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

22. I'll say it again...

A family member of my sister's works at the airbase in Germany that receives the "tubes" - he unloads them. At the last holidays, he said don't believe what you are reading, the number of dead coming in is "significantly" higher than what is being reported.

[TNOE]

23. Yes, thank you

there is no way it can be anything other than that fact. Otherwise they wouldn't be calling up retired reserves and our National Guard would not even be there. Simple logic really.

[vincent_vega_lives]

34. Simply not true

Once killed there is a huge buearcratic machine that involves dozens if not more people that know about it. Not to mention local news, relatives, friends...no cover up. Even SOF are listed.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor_july_2004.html

[StandUpGuy]

40. What if .....

Only soldiers that actually die on the ground in Iraq are counted.

What if only US citizens are counted in the death toll.

What if severely wounded troops leave their units to receive needed medical treatment and then die on route. Would their comrades even know they had perished?


Yes it is horrible to think that the true death toll is much higher, but when the support for this war is in the low 20% I think the motives to conceal the true causality figures out way the improbability of being able to.

[sleipnir]

42. Support in the low 20%???? What poll have you been reading?

The sheeple is gladly still supporting Bush and his folly in the desert.

Now, I have seen polls that have direct support in the 20-30% range, but you also have about another 20-30% of moderate opinion in that same poll.

The honest numbers are probably more like 50% of "slightly in favor to heavily in favor."

A majority, or perhaps now just a plurality, of Americans still support sending troops into Iraq and the concept of the war in general.

It's sick and sad, but that's the average American for ya.

[StandUpGuy]

44. OK so your only comment to my post is...

That I am correct that Bush has only just over 20% of the people fully supporting the war while another 20-30% are less sure and could be swayed by rising death tolls.

Thanks for supporting my argument.

Could you please also comment on the other main ideas in my post..

[vincent_vega_lives]

46. no if

Any soldier killed in Iraq or Kuwait are on the website I posted whether killed in action, accidents or illness.

There has never been a case where the DoD hid deaths from the public. Casualty notification of family happens as soon as humanly possible to avoid family members hearing from the press first. Even then, with the proliferation of cell phones, some family members hear from their loved ones unit members even before official word can be delivered. Once family members have been notified it becomes public domain. Information that local media watches carefully. Almost all the listings on the site have local news stories with great detail about the soldiers.

There are cases of soldiers on the site where they have been mortally wounded in Iraq, and evacuated to Germany and then died. Their fellow soldiers would be notified.

Folks I have been involved in this process. There is NO cover-up. Not allowing media to view flag draped coffins returning to the States is the closest thing, and even that had photos published by civilian DoD employees. The real story is in the maimed, which we do not here about, not these bogus stories of deflated casualty figures.

These rumors disgust me and are based on juvenile perceptions of the military.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Your last comment is highly insulting to those of us that have served....

...in the military in the past, and to those who have relatives currently serving in the Middle East.

My personal perception of the military from my own experience is of a very large bureaucratic machine that is more than capable of hiding information if they are ordered to do so. There is nothing "juvenile" about suspecting that the military and/or our government is withholding information based on their own agendas.

Your claim that all possible information concerning the loss of military personnel in Iraq is laughable at best. Do you really believe that the information being reported by the media on combat deaths in Iraq is the complete unadulterated truth?

You do understand that there is ANOTHER war going on in the Middle East and a number of OTHER conflicts going on around the world, don't you? Did you know that it is common practice to "hide" losses in one conflict by attributing those losses to other conflicts? Did you also know that deaths due to combat can easily be reported as deaths by accident?

And you do understand that the military has hidden casualty figures as far back as WWII by either delaying the reports of their deaths, or by stating that the soldiers died by reasons other than combat? The military bureaucracy is a pro at both producing and hiding facts and/or statistics. To believe otherwise is terribly naive.

[vincent_vega_lives]

53. Personally I find your comments insulting to

those of us that have served and are serving.

Your theories are very convenient, it means everything you disagree in is a lie, therefore the truth is anything you care to believe.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. I remember reading that survivors are being threatened with the loss....

...of benefits if they go public. Additionally, you might know another family down the street that loses a family member, but how could you possibly know all of the families that have lost people in the Middle East?

The information is being controlled by the very same people that want to conceal the true nature of the conflict. Believe what you want to believe, but if the military and/or government wants to hide something from the American people they can do it with absolutely no difficulties at all. They've had a lot of practice.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

54. Let's see...

who am I going to believe:

A family member who unloads the bodies themselves or you, an annonymous poster on a web board?

Hmmmm...lemme think...

[frylock]

24. kick

[Junkdrawer]

28. If you have family, your death is reported. Otherwise....

And how many of our economic "volunteers" are kids from dysfunctional families?

[vincent_vega_lives]

48. Otherwise nothing

If you are a member of the US Armed Forces you are honored. No soldiers have status over others based on "dysfunctional families". Its NOT the families who release casualty notification figures, it is the DoD, and has been that was since WWII.

[vincent_vega_lives]

29. You can check here.

No big secret.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor_july_2004.html

The names, dates, ages, units and account of every US soldier, sailor, marine and airman killed in Iraq since March 03. Most have pics and links to local newspaper articles. Here's one.



Army Sgt. 1st Class Linda Ann Tarango-Griess

33, of Sutton, Neb.; assigned to the 267th Ordnance Company, Nebraska National Guard, Lincoln, Neb.; killed July 11 when an improvised explosive device detonated near her convoy vehicle in Samarra, Iraq.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/3087861.html

[Jackpine Radical]

33. I know the Russians gave bogus low death counts

in their little Afghanistan adventure, and eventually the people at home figured it out, but I don't think they released any names except to the families.

Despite my willingness :tinfoilhat: to believe almost anything about our current leadership, I really don't see how they could get away with hiding US or "coalition" deaths, for all the reasons mentioned above.

[Disturbed]

43. Death toll.

I read somewhere that if a US Soldier/Marine is wounded and sent to Germany and dies there that this death isn't counted on the Iraq Death list. True? False?

Also, do "Mercs" deaths get counted, as well?

[Jackpine Radical]

45. No, Merc deaths don't seem to be counted in the total

--and there aren't apparently all that many of them anyway, since the lower-paid military people take most of the risks.

I've heard that same thing about deaths that occur away from the battlefield (e.g. in German or Stateside hospitals), but again--the families surely notice that their loved ones are dead but not getting listed as among the KIA.

[vincent_vega_lives]

47. Yes and no

I read somewhere that if a US Soldier/Marine is wounded and sent to Germany and dies there that this death isn't counted on the Iraq Death list. True? False?

FALSE. They certainly are included, as are soldiers that are killed in Kuwait in accidents.

Army Staff Sgt. Stephen G. Martin

39, of Rhinelander, Wis.; assigned to the 330th Military Police Detachment, Army Reserve, Sheboygan, Wis.; died July 1 at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., from injuries sustained June 24 when a car bomb exploded near his guard post in Mosul, Iraq.



Also, do "Mercs" deaths get counted, as well?

No, civiians of any kind are not counted.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html

[vincent_vega_lives]

49. Killed on July 21st

July 21, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marine Lance Cpl. Mark E. Engel, 21, of Grand Junction, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Lejeune, N.C.; died July 21 at Brook Army Medical Center, Fort Sam Houston, Texas, of wounds he received July 6 due to enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq.


Army Pfc. Nicholas H. Blodgett, 21, of Wyoming, Mich.; assigned to the 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry Regiment, Schweinfurt, Germany; killed July 21 when his patrol vehicle hit an improvised explosive device in Abdalluyah, Iraq.

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor_july_2004.html

Of course WIAs figures are NOT released in detail (no names). But the family members are still notified.

[floda]

57. vincent vega, can you explain this.

This is from some local newspaper October 8 2003

SHERRODSVILLE – A former Sherrodsville man is recovering at Fort Riley, Kan., after he was injured in a blast near his military base in Iraq Oct. 8.

Cpl. Wayne Burnsworth, 20, was one of eight soldiers in the first vehicle of several returning from a patrol mission with the Army’s 1st Infantry Division. As Burnsworth’s vehicle approached the base’s gate, “there was a big explosion,” according to his grandmother, Hannah Burnsworth of Sherrodsville.

“Then there was a lot of enemy fire, and he could hear that, but he couldn’t see,” she said.

Three soldiers were killed instantly, and five – including Burnsworth – were taken to a Baghdad hospital where two of the soldiers later died, she said.

She said shrapnel was lodged in her grandson’s brain, ankle, arm and the side of his face.

From Baghdad, Burnsworth was transferred to a hospital in Germany and then to Walter Reed Army Medical Center at Washington, D.C., his grandmother said.

http://www.timesreporter.com/left.php?ID=23836&r=0

now this incident can not be found or even traced in
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor_october_2003.html

In the whole month October 2003 there is no incident where 3 soldiers get killed at the same spot. October 16 comes close but those men were shot while negotiating on the street and not bombed and shot when they returned to their base in their vehicles.

Someone with knowledge of the attacks and the casualties must have informed the grandmother.She has no reason to lie about this,i guess.
And the reporter just wrote down what the grandmother said.You would assume its accurate.

So where are the casualties from this october 8 attack reported?

[UdoKier]

55. Cheezus Cripes. Enough of this already.

I really hope President Kerry gets us out of there fast. What on Earth is the point of this?

[GreenArrow]

56. Question

I don't want to speculate on the veracity of the story in question, but I am curious: How accurate were the US casualty reports during Vietnam?

[Renew Deal]

58. I think this is BS.

This looks like a report from rense from some months ago that said pretty much the same thing.