Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Enemy of my Friend is my Friend? - by selwynn

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 01:26 PM
Original message
The Enemy of my Friend is my Friend? - by selwynn
The Enemy of my Friend is my Friend?
by Selwynn

The most vicious attacks on the left this political season are not coming from the right. They are coming from the left. One of the things that has always amazed me about the differences between conservative and liberal politics in America is how much more the left seems to struggle for any kind of unity.

It often seems as though conservatives of all stripes enjoy much more unity than liberals of any stripe ever seem to have. While moderate conservatives, religious conservatives, fiscal conservatives, neo-conservatives and social conservatives all seem to rally around some key issues that they can agree on, and set aside some differences for the sake of loyalty, no such possibility seems to exist on the left side of the spectrum.

In fact the divisions between moderate “new” democrats, social liberals, social democrats, traditional “old” democrats and progressive democrats seem to be irreconcilable. The biggest of these is the division – and outright hatred – of many “progressives” for the Democratic Party they feel has abandoned them. While they have a legitimate gripe (there is enough blame to go around), years of disunity and divisiveness among those of a left perspective have drastically weakened everything that is not a conservative stance.

In 2004, one of the biggest feelings affecting the base of the left is the feeling of dissatisfaction with all options. If you are not a centrist moderate democrat, then there is no room for you in party politics this year, just as there was no room in 2000, or 1996, or 1992. Where the Republican Party manages to find ways to hold on to both its base and its moderates, the Democratic Party seems to not even be trying. Unfortunately, that unwillingness to reach out has created many other rifts. Now, moderate and progressive democrats are at each other’s throats, and progressives and progressives are at each other’s throats.

Remembering Agreement
Because of this, traditional democrats and progressives of all stripes are a little defensive about their choices – with some leaving the party for independent pastures, and others fighting a gritty less-than-hopeful fight for change from within. None of the options seem anywhere near satisfactory, but rather than coming together and uniting for change, those choosing to work from within and those choosing to work from without spent little time actually working, and most time viciously fighting with one another.

Whether it is the tyranny of the DLC, putting a strangle-hold on the parameters of the acceptable issues and debate, or whether it is progressives more interested in savagely attacking not only the party, but anyone still thinking about participating in the party – in the face of a unified conservative machine, we have all the bickering, infighting, fragments of “opposition.” Is it any wonder we are ineffective? The liberal base of the democratic party and liberal progressives who have left the party, and moderate centrists who control the party, often do the things that Republicans could only wish for in their wildest dreams – spending so much time fighting amongst each other that we significantly aide those who we claim to resist. The enemy of my friend becomes my friend.

We ought to be able to agree on a couple starting principles that would make inter party (or inter-political spectrum) discourse so much more humane. First, we ought to be able to agree that the questions about how to do the right thing politically are incredibly complicated, and there are no simplistic either/or answers. Finding ways to actually assist in creating real change, not just speak rhetorically about change, is the greatest challenge.

We ought to be able to agree that the bulk of the people we meet on the “left” want a better more just, more humane society in which people are treated like people, and where our presence in the world is one of peace rather than aggression. Even if we question the total commitment of corporate centrists to egalitarian ideas, we can still find some commonalities shared – and certainly we can find many commonalities between progressives still committed to the Democratic part and progressives outside the party.

To me it seems like those are pretty strong agreements. It would seem like with those agreements in place, we could have far more civil discourse about our disagreement, seeking common ground and ways in which we can partner together against the defeat of the diverse conservative make up of the Republican Party, all currently united under the banner of Neo-conservatism.

So let’s talk about the biggest disagreement: how to vote. There is no bigger or more contentious debate than the one between progressives who believe that Kerry does not represent real progressive ideals and progressives that believe nothing is more important than removing the tyranny of the Bush Administration from power. I will explain my own decision:

Remembering Respectful Disagreement
I've made carefully considered decision to vote against Bush by voting for Kerry this year, because in the final analysis I can convinced it is the choice that best honors my beliefs and commitments overall. I do this not because I love Kerry, nor because I believe that there are not similarities between the two parties' candidates. So the first point where productive discussion breaks down is when a fellow progressive tries over and over again trying to expose me to the fact that the system is wrecked and that Kerry is horrible evil person who is just part of the same machine that Bush is a part of is not going to result in anything productive. In the final analysis, I do not agree that there are no differences between the candidates. There are differences.

Electing a president is not a one issue decision. There is nothing that makes me more frustrated than when Republican people I know vote Republican for literally one reason and one reason alone: Abortion. It angers me when they ignore every other critical and serious issue out there and vote only based on that one thing, as though there are no other serious issues demanding moral reflection other than that one.

Yet at the same time, it makes me equally as frustrated when progressive minded folk do the same thing. Right now the sweeping generalizations about Kerry’s lack of differentiation from Bush have to do with one issue: Iraq. In fact, almost the only issue even being talked about on the left is Iraq. Iraq is a critically important issue. But it is one critically important issue among many.

The injustices of our action in Iraq are outrageous – but no more outrageous than the injustices of our policies towards our own people, the poor, our children, our mothers. They are no more outrageous than the undermining of separation of church and state, than the collapse of civil liberties, of the undermining of labor. They are no more outrageous than our lack of quality health care, or the tax breaks given to the super rich in the last four years. Across the spectrum of all the issues that I believe are critically important, there are indeed differences between the candidates.

So the question becomes: are the differences between candidates sufficient to influence my vote? They can be sufficient in either a positive or negative way. For example, the positive differences between Kerry and Bush could be sufficient enough that one would vote for him more than Bush and more than a third party candidate. But in this election year, it is the negative differences that influence me.. The negative differences between Bush and Kerry are be so serious, that I would want to vote for Kerry more than Bush or a third party candidate which might inadvertently aide Bush.

So there's the rub, and it is at the heart of all the ugly bickering and infighting that plagues the left and makes is inefficient: I am not confused about the failures of the Democratic Party. I am not in the dark about the shortcomings of the John Kerry candidacy. Fight start when the same tired old points are given over and over again that completely miss the point. The point is, the negative aspects of the Bush administration create a sufficient difference between Bush and Kerry, and therefore it necessitates casting my vote in such a way that best guarantees the defeat of Bush.

This is the first time in recent history we have been plagued by an administration so horribly bad that removing them from power is the most important goal. There is no historical trend that supports the idea that there is always something this severe that must be voted against (a frequent argument of progressives not voting for Kerry against progressives voting for Kerry). What we know is that that right now, we face the worst, most destructive and most dangerous administration in decades, and regardless of the insufficiency of Kerry's candidacy, I do not feel that he exists on a much different plane.

Clearly there is disagreement here on both the scope of the Bush Administrations evil and the level of Kerry’s qualification. But we can at least start coming together in a more united fashion if we start accepting honest disagreements and stop reacting to fellow liberals and progressives who believe differently with hatred and cynicism. We must accept that progressives voting for Kerry against Bush have not made the decision because they haven't thought about things. They haven't made the decision because they hate democracy or love corporations, or don't believe in progressive ideals. They are doing what they are doing because they believe, as I do, in a world where decisions are unbelievably complicated, and choices are never perfect. In the end, they do what they do because they believe they are right.

The Revolution Will not be Televised
Real change will never start in the White House. It is not going start by another progressive posting yet another non stop self-gratifying articles about how corporations have taken over, and the two parties are the same. It's not going to start until we can move from our endless descriptions of the problems and toward prescriptions for change!

It is therapeutic and soothing to rally around each other and gripe about everything. Progressives outside the party rally together and snidely criticize the system with each other, and then attack anyone still participating in that structure. Progressives inside the party rally together and mock and scoff anyone who has chosen to work outside the system. It feels good to speak negatively about the things we see are wrong, and find yet another good article ranting about the evils of corporatism or warmongering or the power elite. It makes us feel like we're actually doing something when we just post endless commentary describing everything that's wrong. But it isn't worth much practically. Isn't it time to start talking about what we're really for and how to turn that into reality?

I don't believe that process starts in a campaign for the White House with no base, not support, no changing of public opinion. I believe that process starts when we stop acting like a self congratulatory cliquey club that says, "hey come over tonight, we'll sit around and rank out the system and point out all the problems in society again!" and instead start hitting the streets saying, "I'm done hanging out in our little clubs bitching about what's wrong - I'm taking to the streets in my own home town to build a movement of progressive revolution form the ground up. I'm heading out to change hearts and minds - how? By telling them what we should be for – not just all we're against. I’m looking for ways to work with fellow progressives, get past our disagreements and unite on the things we do agree about.” Then get these people elected to city councils and school boards, and put them into local media and on the radio, and into state legislatures and into the courts, and sent to Washington. And then - then – get one elected president with the majority base of a progressive nation.

Is that possible? I don’t know - and we'll never know until we start serious grassroots transformation of the hearts and mind of the public. I wish that during that process, we could respect each other's points of view a little bit more. It’s certainly more of a challenge to find ways for progressive democrats and moderate democrats to work together. But it’s a sad shame that even progressives and progressives have problems working together. We could learn a thing or two from the unity of the right.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Fantastic essay!
Do you test-drive your work with us, and then publish it elsewhere? I would hate to think that your writings fell into the void after this thread fades from view.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It always goes on my blog
selwynn.blog-city.com

I have submitted off and on to a few different places. I have a network of friends who always get my stuff. Sadly, everything I've ever submitted to DU directly has been turned down. :(

Honestly, I don't like the writting in this one as much - because it came from an informal post I made a couple days ago, and I modified it. When I don't start from scratch the writing seems... a bit of a jumble. Anyway, thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. We need a leader to come out and say what we stand for.
Right now, we don't have much to rally around. Those who haven't gone out of their way to hear Kerry wouldn't even know he's spoken yet. Who's going to carry out the banner we need to rally around? More importantly, when?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Excellent points. But, I'll still be voting for Cobb.
While I agree with almost everything you've said, I remain unconvinced that we can change the party - and the nation, from the inside. I will be voting for the two progressive Democrats that I'm fortunate enough to have as senator and congressman. I will not be voting for Kerry. Not because he isn't "liberal" enough and I'm such a "purist" that I won't compromise on many issues. Even most issues. Hell, I even voted for Clinton twice without breaking my nose.

Having said that, I will not vote for Kerry because of his stance on Iraq and the Middle East. I have decided not to vote for him, not because of some minor picque over his "moderate" stances on abortion or gay rights, or some philosophical differences with a "slightly" liberal senator.

It's about morality. John Kerry supported, and continues to support, the invasion and occupation of Iraq. He has endorsed the building of the Apartheid Wall in Israel/Palestine. I suspect his endorsements of both have more to do with winning votes from "moderates" (that ephemeral bunch who vote for someone because he's cuter, or wears plaid underwear) than any real belief. At least I hope so. Perhaps his morality allows him to go so far as to sacrifice lives for the sake of politics. Mine doesn't.

Would Kerry be better than Bush. Of course. Joe Lieberman, Dick Gephardt, or almost any Democrat would.

The way to get the Democratic Party to move left, is to make our votes valuable to them. As long as they can count on us merely grumbling but still voting for rightward tilting candidates, there is no motivation for them to move left.

I have no quarrel with those progressives who will vote for Kerry this time around. I've certainly struggled with my own desire to rid the White House of the sewage now inundating it.

But, on this occasion, as in 1968, I'm going to have to vote my conscience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Respectfully, you sound like the "one issue" individuals I mentioned
To me, these three paragraphs would be the relevant portions for a discussion with you:

"Electing a president is not a one issue decision. There is nothing that makes me more frustrated than when Republican people I know vote Republican for literally one reason and one reason alone: Abortion. It angers me when they ignore every other critical and serious issue out there and vote only based on that one thing, as though there are no other serious issues demanding moral reflection other than that one.

Yet at the same time, it makes me equally as frustrated when progressive minded folk do the same thing. Right now the sweeping generalizations about Kerry’s lack of differentiation from Bush have to do with one issue: Iraq. In fact, almost the only issue even being talked about on the left is Iraq. Iraq is a critically important issue. But it is one critically important issue among many.

The injustices of our action in Iraq are outrageous – but no more outrageous than the injustices of our policies towards our own people, the poor, our children, our mothers. They are no more outrageous than the undermining of separation of church and state, than the collapse of civil liberties, of the undermining of labor. They are no more outrageous than our lack of quality health care, or the tax breaks given to the super rich in the last four years. Across the spectrum of all the issues that I believe are critically important, there are indeed differences between the candidates."

Your thoughts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "One Issue" is misleading.
I can overlook a number of issues. I voted for Clinton despite his "welfare reform" that was aimed at getting moderate votes rather than reforming welfare. I overlooked his support of NAFTA and "free trade". I overlooked his tepid support of environmental causes and "don't ask don't tell". etc. etc. I'm perfectly willing to do the same for Kerry, though it does cause my gag reflex to kick in. And, for much the same reasons that Clinton, despite his glaring shortcomings, I would vote for Kerry despite my misgivings about many of his "moderate" views on many issues.

The point is that there is a difference between "providing more money for education", being "stronger on the environment", etc., and supporting the killing of people.

But, throw in his support for the slaughter in Iraq, his support of a Wall in Israel/Palestine, the camel has become overloaded.

Ponder this. If BushCorp is reelected, he has no imperative to "win" in Iraq if (I should say "when) it gets to hot to stay because he has accomplished his #1 goal. Getting reelected.

Kerry, on the other hand, to accomplish his #1 goal, to get reelected, will have to devise some way of "winning". Hopefully, that will be some sort of "declaring victory" and getting the hell out. But, it's pretty difficult to see that happening. He's embraced that tarbaby and now he's stuck with it.

Let me ask you this. If Kerry does, AS HE SAID HE WILL DO, continue the occupation, what will you do then? Continue to support him in hopes that he will change his course? Because he's "not as bad" on other issues?

I'm not trying to convince you to change your vote, I'm just stating why I won't vote for the lesser of two evils this time around.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. You assume I am a "get troops out now" person
I am not sure I am.

Kerry has promised to get our troops home by the end of his first term. Some see that as a meaningless, empty promise becuase it is a long time table. Others don't necessarily doubt the sincerity but feel that time table is too long. Others feel that any time table other than an immeidate withdraw is unacceptable. I remain undecided on the issue of whether or not our troops should immediately be withdrawn or whether that would be a cut and run that would doom that country to worse turmoil and instability than there is now. I have long had a tendancy to think in terms of, "you break it, you buy it." And I'm not sure that bailing out on Iraq and leaving it a disaster is just or honorable. At the same time, I'm not sure that our continued military presences helps anything.

Becuase I myself am unsure of the right course of action in Iraq, I am not as dogmatic in my opinions of others who have different opinions of our role in Iraq.

The funny thing about not voting for the lesser of two evils is that by not doing so you aid the greater of two evils. Tough spot to be in.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. On this issue "The greater" and "The lesser" difference is minimal.
Both Kerry and Bush agree that we "must stay the course".

The idea that we have to continue to occupy Iraq militarily to "fix" it is nonsensical. We stayed in Vietnam to bring about a "stable" "democratic" government and bring about "peace with honor". The Israelis are still occupying the West Bank and Gaza with the same thing in mind. In both cases the results have brought about none of the promised results.

As to "cutting and running" being "dishonorable", what could be more dishonrable than what is going on there now? Also, under that premise, if the Germans had just stuck around in Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, etc, and "fixed" what they had broken, would that have made them "honorable"? How's our record of "fixing" what we broke in Congo? Angola? Mozambique? Honduras? Guatamala? Chile? Not exactly a testament to our "honor".

Isn't "honor" what dimwitted aristocrats shot each other over between bouts of whipping the slaves?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Again, the difference is minimal - on one particular issue.
As to the rest of your post - I said I was uncertain as to what the best course is, I did not say with certainty that the best course is to stay.

You can substitute the word "dishonorable" for "unjust." That comes closer to what I am concerned about. Mine is not a concern over superfluous "honor." Mine is concern over what is fundamentally right.

Every post you make seems to only underscore the fact that only one issue matters to you this year. Many issues matter to me, and I believe that there are many issues every bit as morally serious as our occupation of Iraq.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-24-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Well, we'll both be voting for what we think is best.
I believe that the occupation of Iraq is the overriding issue in this election. It's seldom that one issue does compel me to vote other than Democrat. This is one of those 2 times. The other being in 1968. I cannot turn a blind eye to American Imperialism and all that it entails. I've been around long enough to fully realize that politics is a nasty business at best and those who usually prosper in it are not exactly paragons of virtue. And, IMO, Kerry is certainly not atypical of that breed.

I suppose all of us have certain lines that we refuse to cross. This one is mine.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ducks In A Row Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think it's funny to put down "one issue" voters
since in general this election is about one issue. Kicking out Bush. It wouldn't matter if a blue monkey was nominated, it would still be voted for instead of Bush.

:)

I'm not that happy about Kerry. He's no Clinton, not even a Gore. But he's still better than Bush by a long long mile.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. 1) I don't feel I put anyone down 2) I don't believe your premise
First of all, I don't feel that I put anyone down. Talking about an issue, even raising critical concerns is not synonymous with a put down.

Second of all, I don't believe this general election is as "simple" as kicking Bush out. I wouldn't vote for just anyone - I would have to vote for someone who represented sufficient difference from Bush. I believe there is sufficient difference between Kerry and Bush on more than one issue to warrant voting for Kerry.

It's not that I'm happy about Kerry, but I certainly wouldn't be happier about him if he were more like Clinton or more like Gore. I'm afraid that's change in the wrong direction. He's no Kucinich, not even a Dean, but he still holds more positions that are sufficiently differentiated from those of Bush to be the better choice for office.

This election is not at all about one issue, anymore than any election is about the "one issue" of beating your opponent. This election is about Kerry representing sufficient difference on a multiplicity of issues from Bush to justify my vote. Those differences are not always as extreme as they should be, but they are still there. It's not a vote for perfection, its a vote for the attainable better.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Every day I find one post that positively disgusts me.
Congrats! You are today's winner.

Yeah, vote your friggin conscience and then it numb for four year if that helps Bush* steal another election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Glad to be of service!!
I will be voting my conscience. What will you be doing? And, where will you be if Kerry continues the occupations and bloodletting as he has said he will do? Cheering him on? Applauding his "courage"? Or, perhaps you'll join up so that you can do something "honorable".

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. No, I'll be cheering Kerry on as he appoints fair, honest judges
to replace the fascists Bush* and his kind promote. I'll be cheering as Kerry works to bring the US economy back to a place that helps the people at the bottom of the ladder and not the few at the top.

I'll be cheering him on as he truly saves Social Security and provides a real Medicare health benefit. I'll be cheering Kerry on as he ends the RW fundie stranglehold on aid to foreign countries dealing with women's health and population control. I'll be cheering him on as he fully funds stem cell research, research that has the potential to make millions of lives better.

I'll be cheering him on as he restores environmental protections and works on improving the health of all Americans. Etc, Etc, Etc.

Even if his Iraq policy is no better than that of Bush*, on EVERY other issue he is a huge improvement.

But, no, let's not vote for Kerry because of Iraq! So what if that allows Shrub to steal another election--there's no difference between the two!!! LOL. What the hell, when Roe is overturned, your conscience will be clear. When women are dying around the world because effective pre and post natal care was not funded, your conscience will be clear. When stem cell research grinds to a halt, cheating millions out of potential miracle cures, your conscience will be clear. As the rape of the environment accelerates, no worry, your conscience will be clear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Everything I was writing against is represented here.
I believe this attitude does nothing to help the counrty to a better place. I believe that an attitude of open discussion and dialogue with people on the left at different points along the spectrum can only help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stavka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. One word - "Fantastic"!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CaTeacher Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-23-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. you are a fantastic writer! I will visit your
site too. I want to read more of your stuff. You have great insight, and a very clear way of wording things!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC