Liberals vs Conservatives? Who will win in the end?

[Meldread]

This is part of a post I made in another thread, but I decided to start a new thread on this topic just to see what people think:

I believe Progressive Values can win out over Conservative Values. I believe that many people are Conservative because they are ignorant of true "liberalism". They are saturated with "left leaning Moderates" or "fake liberals". At the end of the day TRUE Progressives are looking out for the people, they are doing what is in the best interest of the future of the country and the future of everyone within it.

We believe that everyone in America has an unalienable right to healthcare; Conservatives believe that if you can't afford it then you should get a second job. We believe that you should not have to worry about sending your children to school; Conservatives believe that assault weapons -- weapons of war -- should be in public hands. We believe in workers rights; Conservatives believe in protecting the rights of Corporations who exploit workers. We are different in many other ways, but these are just a few, and yet so many are afraid to stand up and champion these noble and worthy principles.

They are frightened into submission by a hostile media and right wing that works like a well oiled machine. Yet I do believe there is hope, and I believe with strong leadership and a clear plan that we can win anywhere and everywhere that we choose. I believe with firm conviction that if we worked hard enough we could reverse all of the damage done over the years by right wing ideology and fanatical evil right wing Christians, who have perverted their religion to support an Un-Christian set of ideals and beliefs. I believe that we can win Elections in Crawford Texas just as easily as we can in Boston Massachusetts. All it takes is determination, vision, leadership, and a belief that such things are possible.

[gumby]

1. Excuse me for being rash,

but the old "liberal vs. conservatism" doesn't cut it now.

I see the "sides" as:

fascism vs. democracy.

Reconstructionsim vs. survival.

And, I never doubt Hope.

[Meldread]

3. Good point. EOM

EOM

[baldguy]

2. There's nothing wrong with conservative values.

Fiscal, moral & social responsibility. Self-reliance. Limited gov't. etc etc etc. You may disagree with their world view and their methods, but conservatives and liberals have the same goals. Both views come out of the American humanist tradition.

The people who we oppose - those in power: the neocons, the bushies, the corporations, the religious wackos - they are fascists. They have no tradition. Their goals are power, control, and profit. And they will STOP AT NOTHING to gain and maintain these goals.

[walldude]

7. I agree totally

It's not Us vs Them, we are all Americans, and when the chips are down we all come together. I feel bad for moderate conservatives and even some of the hardcore who can't see past the brainwashing they are hammered with on a daily basis. I'm hoping that when Hersch breaks the child torture story that Americans will join together again. I can't see any way that the Neo's can refute the video and I really can't see any American condoning the torture of children...

[K-W]

11. Those arent conservative values.

Those are everyone's values. Everyone believes in fiscal, moral, and social responsibility. Everyone believes a government should be efficient. Everyone believes the government should stay out of peoples personal lives.

Conservativism isnt about those things, you must look at the ways that it differs from everyones beliefs. Conservatism is reactionary. It is about selfish fear of progress and greed.

[kaitykaity]

4. They work until they overstep and go too far.

And they always go too far.

That's when the pendulum swings back, and damn are
we due for a really big swing.

[gumby]

5. I TOTALLY reject the "pendulum theory"

Where the fuck was the "pendulum" in Nazi Germany?

Unfortunatly, when the "pendulum" gets so out of wack, death, destruction and hardship are felt by all (edit: except fpr the Nazi suplied wealth of the super wealthy Bushies and their buddies).... for a looooong time.

[kaitykaity]

10. Is Hitler's Party in power now?

The fascists self-destruct. They ALWAYS GO TOO FAR.
Then somebody steps in to take care of the mess.
That's what I mean by the pendulum swings.

We are not Nazi Germany and Bush is not Hitler.

I am confident that the Bushistas have reached their
nadir and it is all downhill for the Gingrishans from here.
The American people aren't stupid, and we've got good
candidates, lots of money, and an energized base.
There's a lot to be optimistic about. 2002 this is NOT.

[w4rma]

12. The decendants of the same folks who financed and supported Hitler are

now in power today here in America.

[kaitykaity]

15. Oh bullshit.

:tinfoilhat:

[BillZBubb]

6. Liberals (loosely defined) ALWAYS win in the end.

Assuming their is any progress in a society, that progress is achieved by the incorporation of ideas from liberal philosophy.

Society can regress, giving the conservative philosophy a brief ascendancy. That regression can be carried to the abyss as in Nazi Germany or fascist Italy. But, after the inevitable disaster, progress (liberalism) returns and surpasses where it had been before the conservative period. The US has been in a regressive stage since 1981.

One thing to remember, though, is that liberal and conservative philosophies are not static, they evolve. American conservatism has moved from Toryism (the divine right of Kings, slavery, feudalism, etc) to Whiggism to Corporatism. Liberal philosophy once championed free trade while Tories opposed it. In today's world economy, liberals understand the race to the lowest wage base that Corporatist "free trade" represents.

[JayS]

8. I've never heard any Conservatives calling for weapons of...

...war in the general public's hands. Where did you get that from?

[librechik]

9. everything tends toward congeniality

conservative tightass puritan tightwads can make life a living hell. No one is going to put up with it for too long--willingly.

So they turn to force...(or get their asses kicked and shut up for awhile.)

[Kanary]

13. given the continual bashing of "progressives" on this forum

I would say that it looks strongly like conservatism is going to win out.

:shrug:

[K-W]

16. Most people on this forum are progressives, what are you talking about?

Where are progressives being bashed?

[Kanary]

18. You haven't seen it?

Then, you aren't reading a lot of the posts............been going on for a VERY long time.

Maybe at one time most of the posters here *were* progressives........ that balance has changed......

We've even been flat-out told to leave the party here....

There's a huge division here......... it's not that hard to find.

Kanary

[K-W]

20. I think you misread the division

it is not between progressives and liberals, it is between people who feel that citizens must compromise thier values in order for the system to work for us and people who feel that if the system doesnt allow us to keep our values, it isnt worth participating in.

Dem voters vs Nader voters for example.

[Kanary]

23. progressives have often been vilified here

Told to just pack up and leave........

More and more people are getting ready to take the advice.....

[wyldwolf]

14. more like...

We will eventually have a Star Trek world (where liberals won) or a Star Wars world (where fascists won)

[Sparrow]

17. corporations win

no matter what.

[Kanary]

19. you hit the target

unless we miraculously find the courage to start actually going *Progressive*, and fight the battle.

[Bush was AWOL]

21. Liberals most definitely will, imo

Our society is becoming more and more accepting to liberalism and that is what makes Freeper types so nervous. They feel it coming. If it wasn't for Clinton's BJ Gore wins easily and they are already defeated.

[OnionPatch]

22. Did you read Robert Reich's book?

Reason: Why liberals will win the battle for America

It talks about how most people actually support liberal values although many of them don't even realize it. It's a great book to describe liberal values to someone who doesn't understand them.

[NashVegas]

24. Wall Street, etc

The elite love it when the underlings are at each other's throats. They can operate unimpeded if we're too busy with each other to notice what they're getting away with.

[levdog]

25. nobody wins

it will always be a compromise, may be tilted one way or another at various points.

[thistle]

26. The side with the most money will win,

unless there's a revolution or some other type of miracle.