Poles Say 'Fahrenheit 911' Is Propaganda (Compares it to Leni Riefenstahl)

[Khephra]

WARSAW, Poland -- "Fahrenheit 9/11" opened Friday in Poland -- a U.S. ally in Iraq -- with some critics comparing director Michael Moore's style to totalitarian propaganda.

But politicians who opposed Poland's decision to send troops to Iraq urged the public to see the film. Moore's movie portrays President Bush as inept and the war in Iraq as an illegitimate campaign waged to further business interests.

A critic for Gazeta Wyborcza, Poland's largest daily newspaper, condemned the movie as a "foul pamphlet" too biased to be considered a documentary and said it reminded him of methods used by Nazi propaganda filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl.

"In criticizing Moore, I have to admit that he has certain abilities -- Leni Riefenstahl had them too," reviewer Jacek Szczerba said.

http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/news/wire/sns-ap-poland-fahrenheit-911,0,7474923.story?coll=sns-ap-entertainment-headlines

[tandot]

1. Who cares what Poles say? The propaganda coming from the White House

is more subtle but not less effective. If anything can be compared to Nazi propaganda, it is the propaganda put forth by Bush and his boot lickers.

Someone had to stand up and show the world what is going on here.

[LarryBaker]

6. Who cares? I would think we do

Or will we only work with our own selection of European countries when Kerry becomes president? Kind of like Bush is doing now? I realize this particular tidbit means nothing, but saying 'who cares' what they think still sounds ignorant to me.

[tandot]

11. Ignoring the UN and going to war without any reason sounds ignorant to me

[atreides1]

16. No We Don't

The very same Poles who received F-16's for supporting the US in Iraq. Of course it's the Polish and Czech governments, and not the people that support Bush.

Both countries are bought and paid for, when they become real soveriegn nations and not US puppets then I'll care about what they think and not until then.

So yes we should work with European countries that are sovereign nations, not Bush puppets.

[LarryBaker]

42. I hope State don't hire you

Pettiness does not a responsible foreign policy make. Basing it on raw emotion is really not in America's interest. Should we also sever ties with the UK, just out of spite? (Don't answer that) And if anything, it'll hardly give us the respect Kerry pledges to restore. The best way to bring Poland and the other "puppets" into the fray is with open arms. Wanting to exclude them from a grander scheme just because they didn't shun Bush to the extent we would've liked makes me think your place should be at the Interior Dept if anywhere. ;-)

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

10. Really?..........

What's the reason for Black jokes, or Jewish jokes?

One would think that the polish people would know Propaganda when they see it....could have something to do with WW2 and their country's invasion and occupation by Hitler and Friends.

Personally I disagree with his viewpoint about the film, but as someone with Polish heritage I don't see the need to name call and point fingers at Polish people for their 'ignorance'; not everyone can be as well informed as worldly as you.

[DenverDem]

12. If the Poles are so smart about propaganda

why are they buying into busholini's in this case? One would think the Hitler experience would clue them in to fascist mass mind control techniques and they would be exposing the bfee for the old school nazis that they are.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DenverDem]

24. Because they are more willfully ignorant than Poles.

Not too complex.

[merh]

21. Duhhhhhh - could it be politics? This article is the equivalent of the

WSJ or drudge slant, written for political purposes. Are you so closed minded that you cannot see that this is only the view that those in charge (those working with and friendly to * and his admin) want us to know. How slow are you to appreciate the obvious. This may not be what the majority of Polish believe and/or this is the view that the government want the Polish people to believe. Don't assume anything about the Polish people because of this article and/or the leaders of their government. That is how a good many of the international community are viewing us because of our gov heads and the propaganda our "media" publishes. And you make fun of the Polish, how silly.

[DenverDem]

23. Americans deserve ridicule for allowing a criminal to run the country.

If we had any backbone we would not have allowed the election to be stolen in the first place.

[merh]

26. No argument there, just think the Polish joke comment was uncalled

for, that's all. American's are ridiculed and hated and we all share the blame for letting this happen. If we don't support dems in every election for every position, local, state and federal, then we deserve what we get. The control of the executive and legislative brances in state and national govs (and thus the control of the judiciary) has resulted in the mess we are in. No checks and balances, no group in a position to hold them accountable.

rant, rave, rant, rave..........

[DenverDem]

30. Too bad the PC police don't protect Texas from blanket slams

that are so polular around here . But the poor Polish can't be joked about, seems fairly hypocritical.

busholini is a yankee carpetbagger fom New Haven, not a Texan.

[atreides1]

22. Ignorance should always be pointed out, no matter who!!!

I would say they react to propaganda, depending on who's putting money in their pockets, or who's giving them 48 F-16 fighters at a bargain price.

If the Polish people are as perceptive as you believe, why are they unable to see BushCo for what it really is. You see just like anyone
else they too can be swayed by shiny gifts.

I guess not everyone can be as perceptive as you.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

25. If I recall correctly.........

It was the PEOPLE of the world who were against Bush and the Iraq War, yet their governments were all for it.

Sound familiar?

Further, this was a film critic's review of a film....not exit polls taken of the viewership.

[LarryBaker]

3. ...and to communist propaganda:

"Those of us who have lived through the film propaganda of the Communist era are a bit overly sensitive to the tricks of the director," Klaus told the Lidove Noviny daily last week.

Czech President Vaclav Klaus spoke out against Moore's work, saying he is troubled by any film that urges viewers to totally adore or condemn a leader.

[Hoping4Change]

8. Moore states openly that this is his opinion, Soviet

propaganga on the hand hand presented their take on reality as truth not opnion. Big difference. The Czech's as well as the Poles are recepicients of massive financial aid from the US given their involvement in Iraq. Their opinion IMO has been bought.

[Yupster]

32. Moore's not saying the movie is truth?

I thought Moore has made a big deal about how everything in the movie is true and thrice verified?

Is it propaganda?

Of course.

Moore made a movie specifically to make Bush look as ridiculous and bad as possible. Hardly a huge mountain to climb.

What if Moore decided to make a movie to make Kerry look as bad and ridiculous as possible? You know he could do a good one. You bet he could.

So, in my opinion, if you make a movie to ridicule someone or some idea, it could fairly be called propaganda.

[Hoping4Change]

34. Moore said its true and and all the facts were verefied but he has

clearly stated countless times that it his take on the facts. He has NEVER claimed neutrality. He made it to argue a point.

The word propaganda is one of those ill-defined words. To the degree F911 is a rant against Bush it is propaganda. But many of those who study propaganda such as the acclaimed James Ellul he wouldn't regard a film to be propaganda. In his opinion propaganda was a carefully planned very subtle campaign that lasted over the longterm.

[Yupster]

36. Carefully planned, very subtle

I'd call that Moore's campaign against Bush.

I guess you could argue what the term "long term" means.

Some would argue that in a presidential campaign, three months is an eternity. Others would argue that long term means multi generations.

Anyway, I hope this kind of campaigning doesn't become standard in every presidential campaign because a talented film-maker like Michael Moore could rip apart anyone he wants to if given two hours of film to do it in.

[Hoping4Change]

39. Its not subtle at all. Who in the world doesn't know what

Moore thinks of Shrub????? Subtle means you are not aware that you are being played and yhat the information you are getting is unbiased. Does CNN, CBS and NBC ring any bells?

[LarryBaker]

45. I think we basically have the same favorable opinion of Moore,

so it's useless to argue about that. Just want to point out that you can't "buy" the opinion of a country. It's made up of individuals, you know... Just look at Egypt, they hate our guts now, and they're one of the largest aid beneficiaries. If Poles in general espouse values that coincide with the Bush foreign policy it's because they've been behind the iron curtain so long they want to take as big a step away from that as possible. They'll stabilize soon enough, and they will surely grow to be a prominent member of the EU with whom we're bound to have relations. They're 96% Catholic, so Kerry should be warmly received on his first state visit! :-)

[davekriss]

14. And where is Vaclav Klaus remarks...

...on the propaganda that spews forth daily from the 29,000+ major media outlets owned by 6 mega-corporations? Where's his dismissal of Fox as Pravda prattle?

[Generic Other]

15. And those of us who have lived under corrupt politicians of every system

are overly sensitive to the tricks of the ruling elite that never change no matter what the flag.

[pschoeb]

31. Valclav Klaus is a neo-con idiot from the Austrian school of Economics

He worships Friedrich von Hayek and Ludwig von Mises, much like crazy objectivist Ayn Rand.

My guess is former Czech President Valclav Havel must now be condemned by him, for the plays he performed during the "Prague Spring" seem to fit the description, his plays would be bannned and his passport confiscated by the communist regime.

[Democat]

44. The Czech leader is against a movie critical of the government? Idiot!

He is from a country where is was illegal to question the government and now he's condemning a movie that questions the government.

It sounds like maybe he's longing for the good old days when the people couldn't question the government?

He needs to stop kissing Bush's ass and think about the history of his own fucking country.

Putting the good of the people above Bush ass kissing is sad.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. <insert joke about Bush being an honorary Pole here>

[Hoping4Change]

5. The Poles are Bush's vassals. They know enough not to bite

the hand that feeds them.

[Old and In the Way]

7. Poland angling for US Bases moving from Germany?

[Kellanved]

41. and industry

GM got paid to move to Poland. A deal involving Lockheed, the US Government and GM, which basically was just a ploy to circumvent EU subsidy rules.

Poland bought F16 jets with money burrowed from the US; in return L-M agreed to make companies move to Poland - GM decided that the offer was sound and moved.

[Mr_Spock]

9. Blah, blah, blah. Some will say these biased things, other countries

will embrace it wholeheartedly. Whatever - just let them make up their own minds I say. Pole officials - SHUT UP!

[graywarrior]

13. Ask the people of Poland

Seems to me, that's the opinion that means anything.

[Mr_Spock]

29. Exactly, stupid government trying to control thought leftover from Commie

days. What our problem here in the USA is I can't say - rampant paranoia?

[Mikimouse]

17. Just kissing *'s ass so they can get more aid...

see, see your imperial highness? We did what you wanted,now where's the money you promised? Poor fools.

[meow2u3]

18. Well, I say, bring on the Polish jokes

Polish democracy: corporate dictatorship.

Polish freedom of the press: neocon propaganda.

[stellanoir]

20. So sick of this argument

It's apples and oranges. Riefenstahl was propping up a fascist dictator, whereas MM is exposing one. Note the distinction.

[ChocolateSaltyBalls]

27. Very true........

however, according to the definition of Propaganda (Dictionary.com):

The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

Or,

Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause.


Moore's film is indeed the same.

[Yupster]

33. Agree stellanoir

The Hitler and Nazi stuff is just stupid.

If this was Nazi Germany, this board would not exist and the relatives of the top posters would be wondering whatever happened to them.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. Isn't this the opinion of a Polish newspaper critic - not Poland itself?

Because some Poles happen to compare F-911 to a Hitlerian propaganda film, it doesn't mean that every Pole and Poland itself feels this way. I would imagine that there is an entire spectrum of views about the war and about Michael Moore. I receive several European TV programs through my satellite dishes and note that there is no uniform Polish view, or British view, or French view. For example, before the Iraq war, I saw hour after hour of debate on French television, where an entire spectrum of views on the history of Iraq and the pros and cons of invasion were discussed. There were leftists who hated Saddam and wanted him out and leftists who opposed the war and there were right-wingers who opposed Bush and the invasion and there was everything in between. There were French Jewish thinkers both pro and con the war and the same with French Arab thinkers. I saw some knock-down drag-out arguments that convinced me that in each country they have differences of opinion just like we have here in the United States.

[Yupster]

35. Here's a question

Should F-911 become standard for every campaign?

In 2008, should some Republican film-maker make a two hour hit piece on Kerry, and a Democratic film-maker make a two hour hit piece on Bill Frist?

It would sure save us all a lot of money. Voters can go see each side's hit piece and then vote for whichever candidate they loath the least.

I kind of hope the anti-candidate documentary genre dies with this campaign.

[Swede]

37. All 40 million of them? Wow!

They must really poll the Poles?

[truth2power]

38. They should compare Leni Riefenstahl's work

to those Bush/halo pictures. Propaganda indeed!

[ljm2002]

40. There is a key difference...

...besides which "side" they are (were) on. Leni Riefenstahl's propaganda films for Hitler were paid for... by Hitler. He hired her to make them.

No one hired Michael Moore to make his films.

[Democat]

43. Republicans are always outraged when Bush is compared to Hitler

But it's fine to compare anyone on the left to Hitler.

Hypocrisy anyone?

[fujiyama]

46. This article is stupid

They ask one or two selected people, and all of a sudden a bunch of posters start attacking Poles?!

The GOVERNMENT of Poland does sound like it's full of Bush ass kissers, but here's a part in the article that some may have missed:

"surveys show most Poles oppose involvement in Iraq"

I think it's safe to say that the majority of almost every country aside from the US (and possibly Israel), opposed this war.

Why would Poles want their soldiers to die in the middle east for Bush's war?

This article also never mentioned how the film has done there. My guess is people will be quite stunned just like they have been here and in other countries.

Also Moore's film can be arguably called propaganda, though I view it more as counter propaganda. Propaganda is usually much more subtle. Moore also made it clear he has and had an agenda in making this film.