What's wrong with higher taxes

[GoneOffShore]

if, for those taxes, we manage to reduce other expenses, say, health insurance?
I've been reading this board for over a year, although I don't do much posting, and I've yet to see anyone address this potentially rage inducing issue.
We have a fairly low tax rate in this country, and with a slight adjustment in both personal tax rates and a big one in corporate rates we could have a decent educational system, universal AND good health care and a responsible environmental policy.
So, why are we all afraid to bite the bullet and pay our fair share?
Is it, as I suspect, just greed and the "I'm alright Jack, I've got mine, to hell with you" attitude that seems to pervade American society?

As they say on the talk radio shows, I'll take your answers off the air.

[unblock]

1. it's that the greedy bastard try to make their views popular

the greediest bastards just want no taxes, period. but there really aren't that many of those.

most people want VALUE for their money. they'll pay higher taxes if they see that they're getting good stuff one way or another.

so republicans poo-poo everything that the government spends money on, except for corporate contracts and military pork. no matter how good it is, if the republicans are there to say bad things about government spending, then people think that they can't get value for their tax dollar.

so then, the masses oppose taxes.

what we need is a massive government program that everyone sees as a success. social security did that for fdr, and republicans hate us for it.

i suspect national health insurance could be this generation's social security, which is why republicans have been throwing everything under the sun at it.

ironically, they'll only make it more popular because by the time it finally gets done, it will be in such a state of crisis that everyone will instantly see it as the greatest thing since, well, since social security....

THEN, people won't mind paying taxes. of course, we'll call them "premiums" then....

[BillZBubb]

2. It's part of the American culture to gripe about taxes.

We started out protesting taxation without representation, but once independence was won, we were protesting taxation with representation. It's nothing new.

The few times when the public willingly accepted higher taxes was during our major wars.

The major problem we have now is that the Democratic party lost it's spine and will to fight. They yeilded the field to the Repugs who hammered home their nonsense about "it's your money", and "it's all going to welfare queens (ie blacks!)", and "you can spend it more wisely than any bureaucrat", and "the government isn't the solution, the government is the problem", and "we can lower taxes and that will bring in more revenue" (Repug free lunch economics!).

We've lost the battle. What Democrats always should have been doing is pointing out to people what they were getting from government spending and how much more difficult their lives would be without it. We failed to convince them that the taxes they are paying are a huge bargain for the opportunity those taxes provide for THEIR family's education, THEIR family's health, and THEIR economic well being. It's the truth, but when no one is speaking it and the other side is using slogans, guess which side wins?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

3. I'm right there with you

on this one. I have no problems at all paying higher taxes if it means we can have good health coverage, social security and a balanced budget etc. etc. It comes back to that old phrase "You get what you pay for, nothing worth having comes free or easy". Ok so I combined two phrases but, I still agree with you, I believe Howard Dean addressed this very question in one of his speeches. He said, "You can't have it all. You can't have tax cuts AND health care AND a balanced budget." Then he proceeded to say "I bet you wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if you could have the economy this country had when Bill Clinton was president." That drew a wild response. Yep, people are so afraid of taxes and I just don't know why. If you think about it logically you realize you are paying far more for the crapy health coverage you have now than you would if you paid a higher tax for guaranteed health coverage. It just doesn't make any sense.

[CaTeacher]

6. we should pay higher taxes.

That way, we can all have health care, food, housing, education and security in our old age. No one should have much more than what they need--everyone should have their needs fulfilled.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

11. There in lies the problem

teacher. The key words are no one needs much more than what they "NEED". I have asked myself many times, when you have the kind of money that Bush, Cheney and even Kerry have, at what point does it become "Enough"? None of the people I listed, and the list is much much longer, run the risk of EVER running out of money so what's the damn rush to make loads and loads more? I just don't understand it. It's a foreign concept to me. I guess it is true that money corrupts and renders you blind as well. A sad sad shame. Our country has become so pathetic that we have all these super wealthy people and at the same time we have innocent children starving and sick with no remedy.

[BillZBubb]

4. I forgot to add: Good question too!

Dems should be discussing this sort of issue. It's pivotal.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

8. Yes they should

And it's true, the Dems have failed miserably at pointing out the benefits that COULD be had and the lack of benefits under republicans. And that the tax cuts have benefited the top percent. You hear them say it but no one takes time to really explain it. Could it be because most of the Dems are also wealthy? (Our elected officials are the Dems I am referring to) Of course the wealthy people don't give a shit about health coverage, they can wip out a gold card and pay for open heart surgery on the spot and they don't have to do much planning for retirement either. No problem. The middle class is almost extinct, we have wealthy and poor. Obviously the wealthy want more more more so tax cuts are great. The poor just want to be able to feed their children. This country has become divided not only ploitically but economically as well. It is sickening.

[Kanary]

5. Someone from Sweden posted here a while back about this issue

(at least, I remember it being Sweden.....maybe Norway?), and was asked questions, and did some figuring and it was lear their taxes, while higher than ours, are not *THAT* high, and what they get is ........priceless.

But, we Dems are not pushing this issue, and letting ignorance rule the day.

IN the end, it's up to us. Our party isn't going to do this one for us.

Kanary

[CaTeacher]

7. Amen! You are 100% right,

if the party will not push the issue---then WE need to push the party!

And don't anyone give me the stuff about how winning is the only thing---it doesn't help much to "win" the office unless once they are there our party is going to fight for the things that are important.

[depakid]

9. The trouble is that people don't see what they might get back

Other Western democracies get universal healthcare, dental care, higher education, guaranteed respectible retirement income and dignified eldercare. We get none of those things.

If the issue could be framed in such a manner where people could actually do the math and think about just how much they spend on health insurance (including the income they forego for employment based coverage) how much they spend on their kid's college education and what they spend on taking care of their elderly parents, it would be a lot easier to persuade them.

As it is, ignorance and an irrational disdain for government carry the day- and the more that government is deprived of revenue, the worse the quality of services that they actually can provide becomes, which only increases the disdain.

[DaveSZ]

10. The amount of money we waste on the pentagon budget

Bullshit like star wars and the B2 bomber are not needed, and we could spend that money on education and healthcare.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

12. AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

Let's not forget that the department of defense in the recent past FAILED it's 7th straight audit. Hell they loose enough money to provide a LOT of doctors and food. But no one seems to get upset about that. How do you just mis-place millions? I just read an article where a federal agency bought a bunch of new cars and when the time came to replace those vehicles they discovered that one of the 4 year old cars had NEVER been driven because they lost the damn keys. So....they buy brand new cars, let them just sit for 4 years because some nit wit lost the keys then they auction it for next to nothing and buy another one.

[shraby]

14. Why do they need so many

cars to use anyway, as well as airplanes, buses, etc. Public transportation is good enough for the majority of us, why not the government?

[Kanary]

20. Exactly what Dennis Kucinich said.....

The trillion that can't be "found" would provide medical care (NOT insurance! Forget insurance...that's what got us in this pickle!) for every single citizen of the US!

That car story is ..........well, it would be funny, except that if a poor person did the equivalent, they'd never get over the vilification.

Where is the issue of responsibility?

Oh yeah..... that only pertains to the little folk,,,,,

:nuke:

Kanary, sick and tired of the whole mess.......

[shraby]

13. Not only the Pentagon budget,

but the waste in bureaucracy overseeing the multitude of inadequate social programs we DO have eat up a goodly portion of the taxes we pay, not to mention the multi-millions the government gives away to other countries while short-changing the citizens in this country.

If we had one program for universal health care alone instead of the mind-boggling mess we have now there would be a great savings in administration of it to start with. If it were made simple, like if you're a citizen, you are entitled to it, i.e. no means testing..so people could understand it..that would help eliminate a large bureaucracy to administer it. If anyone who could afford private insurance above and beyond what universal health care provides, they can buy it if they want. The program should include any drugs that are prescribed by the doctor who is giving the care.

What we need is some good old common sense put back into our government programs, and the rules and regulations governing the programs written by anybody but lawyers and bureacrats.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

15. Does anyone but me

find it irritating as hell that us "common" people can make better sense than our overpaid elected officials?

[Kanary]

17. Y'mean, like other countries do?

OMG.....

Where's that fainting emoticon.........

:hi:

[Kanary]

16. The trouble is...... All Of That Is Up To US!!

You want to work on the issue?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

19. I do

work on the issues. I have been working on them actively since July last year. I volunteer locally, I write letters, I make phone calls. Hell I even strike up these type of conversations standing in the line at Wendy's waiting to order lunch. I talk talk talk as much as people will listen.

[Kanary]

21. GREAT! Here's more suggestions....

Chuckling at your "conversations in the Wendy's line", btw........ that's great!

Some time ago, this came up (there are endless threads about this...... on and on and nothing gets changed....), and I finally asked if anybody actually wanted to do anything about it. Out of the about 15 people who had posted, 3 or 4 said, yes, they wanted to do something, and came up with some great ideas.

One person started by gathering all the info posted on DU about Universal care (and there have been some *great* threads!) and went to a whole lot of effort to put them all in one place. The idea was that we would, as a group, cull through it all, and use it as the foundation to start various projects.

Well, about 3 of those people said, "Good job on these links", and she and I were the only ones left who were actually interested.... the rest flaked off.......

The list is still in the "Health....." forum.

As I said, it's up to us, and depends on how much we actually want it, or if we just want to complain about it.

Kanary

[GodHelpUsAll2]

27. You think Wendy's is funny

You should see me at the grocery store. I have picked up some very good points over the past year to get peoples attention. I was fortunate enough to be able to canvass in Iowa twice (yes I was there for caucus), Oklahoma, and in Texas I stopped counting after I had reached about 1500 doors knocked and people talked to. I recently had occasion to be in New York and I talked it up there too. The way I see it is, you have to talk to as many people as you can as fast as you can. I find that if you get a little personal, and listen to them, such as talking about kids and divorces and grankids etc. people are more than willing to listen to what you have to say. I relentlessly email/write ALL of the major news networks, MSNBC, CNN, ABC CBS even Fox and the the local news papers and I even send suggestions to the Kerry/Edwards people along with senators and congressmen. I am now my precinct chaiman, I was a delegate at SD and I went as delegate to my state convention as well. I filed my paper work and ran to be a delegate to national but didn't make it. I am quite certain the department of homeland security now has me on a list some where.

[CaTeacher]

22. I applaud you!

(I wish I could clone you!) Keep up the good work! I try--but it is not easy.

the things is --- so many poor people in this country NEED a progressive agenda! But it is hard to reach them all. And--we (the Democratic party) aren't even pursuing a truly progressive agenda. So it is a VERY frustrating situation!

[depakid]

23. I work on issues like this all the time

Particularly in the healthcare field. You wan't find too many people in MPH programs who don't, unless they've become totally cynical.

The trouble is getting decision makers- in my case, the Oregon Legislature- to listen to reason. You can show them unequivocally how programs like the Oregon Health Plan make economic sense, but it's very difficult to overcome their ideological prejudice.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. First, Stop Blowing Trillions of Dollars on The Following Boondoggles:

The Military/Industrial Complex

The Prison/Industrial Complex (and Affiliated "drug war")

I'd like to see what the numbers would look like if we stopped locking up millions of non violent drug offenders, legalized (and taxed) marijuana, and we brought our "defense budget" (not to mention the black budgets which we don't find out about, for secret shennanigans and CIA, NSA type stuff) somewhere in line with reason, considering we live on a planet where we outspend the next 10 countries combined many times over-- and the last "attack" we faced ostenisbly came from guys armed with $2.00 box cutters... I suspect we could fund stuff like Single Payer Health Care without significant tax increases. To boot, rather than raising taxes on the middle class, someone should be making sure that the corporations who currently pay nothing via loopholes or having an "office" at a p.o. box in the bahamas are made to pay their fair share. I also don't think that folks struggling on what passes for the minimum wage these days should be paying any taxes at all.

[GoneOffShore]

24. Yes, agreed

but how do we get the 'American People' to see that this is where money is being wasted?
Most think that we need 'the war on drugs' and that we need to lock up those 'Druggies'.
Besides, a good many of them are earning their living through those very corporations.
I believe there was an article in The Nation either last week or the week before speaking to the growing 'prison industry.' (Sorry, I haven't got the citation or link to hand)

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Well, here's how I see the problem:

It has many levels, not the least of which is our sound-bite based political system. Being a democrat, I am well aware of how this deal works. Why do you think (much to my eternal frustration) the Democrats almost never display any balls (or whatever you want to call it) on the drug war issue? Here's why: All you have to do is run a 30 second spot with a menacing (preferably black) man-- doing something menacing, looking menacing, etc. coupled with this voice over... "Senator Flooblefarb voted against tougher criminal penalties. Senator Flooblefarb is soft on crime. (cue flags, sunshine, small children playing, safe from evil black man) Vote for Tom Dickleweed, he wants to PROTECT YOUR FAMILY... Paid for by fascistcitizensfordickleweed."

A couple decades of that, and you end up with these crazy mandatory minimum laws that no one will touch with a ten foot pole.

[Yupster]

26. I think many people

don't see the connection between higher taxes and better services.

For instance, when I went to elementary school, there were 32 kids in every class, we had no air conditioning and the teachers made next to nothing.

After 30 years of gigantically increased spending on education, teachers are making a much better average wage, the kids have air conditioning, there are only 22 kids in a class (in my district anyway), and what have we gotten for the money?

I don't think that many would argue that the kids are reading better today than they were 30 years ago.

I think that's the disconnect. If you're going to argue that we should pay higher taxes, you're going to have to make people believe that it will translate into better results.

I think national health insurance is a good place to start.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

28. I polietly disagree

I have 2 kids in the public school system and it is not better. I have been to school events where the student hosts can barely read the prepared material. Yeah they have airconditioning but there is such a shortage of teachers that you have the gym teacher teaching the advanced algebra class and so on and more than half of the entire class is failing. We don't have money for new books, the schools are over crowded, my son had 37 kids in his algebra class last year. So full that he didn't have a seat and he sat on the floor for a lot of the year. And I am not in what you would call a "poor district". We don't have money for teachers or more room but hey we have one hell of a football stadium. Whenever I bring a friend or family member to a school event for the first time I always begin it with "Welcome to --- school district, your kids may not be able to read when they graduate but they got to play in the most bad ass sports complex on the planet" That opens up a whole other can of worms. Priorities are out of whack not only on a national level but on the state and city level as well. Don't even get me started on that.