My Anger has Reached a Boiling Point - I'm calling you out.

[Selwynn]

You've seen me white a few different pieces kindly trying to bridge the gap between progressive third party supporters, progressive democratic supporter and moderate democrats.

But today, I've just had enough. Now its time for me to re-post some tough love. I was on another board - this should should be a bastion for positive proactive progressive thinking and working for change. But you know what it is instead? Its a place for a bunch of bitter people with apparently no ideas for proactive change to come and post endless rants against the system, evil bad corporations, and of course their number one target, the democratic party.

After being there for a few months how many positive proactive posts have I seen talking about what progressive third party people should be for, and how to do it, how to organize, what to do next, the plan to actually do some of the abstract things that are mentioned? One. You know how many posts there have been posting yet another "editorial" saying the same old tired things about the bad two party system and how the parties are exactly the same and corporations run everything? All the rest of them.

Here is what I could no longer hold in:
---------------------------------------
Does anyone ever do anything here other than the self gratifying bitching about how wrong everyone else is?

Do you ever actually ... you know.. spend one quarter of the the amount of time you spend ranking everything else out talking about what your actually FOR? Getting a better message out? Promoting positive change? Articles about your candidate's plan, approach, methods, strategy, platform, campaign stops, general message or other kinds of proactive activism?

The biggest mistake I ever made was getting into a spat with xxxxx about her devotion to Dean. I so totally take it back. At least she had an actual MESSAGE to share, and her candidate had actual things to say beyond the simply tired old cliche complaints. At least her candidate represented some degree of proactiveness and when she posted she wasn't posting a bunch of feel good rhetoric or adding yet another bitch session post to the sea of the same - instead she was telling stories of a candidate out there on the move, with a proactive agenda and giving information on all the ways people who felt like her could get involved.

I would kill for that from the rest of you. You all I think I'm mindlessly committed to the Democratic party, but your totally wrong. What you fail to understand is that the democratic party, and getting Bush out of the white house is the only thing I have left - why? Because I am so fucking disillusioned with progressive third party politics that I'm past disgusted. Why am I so disillusioned? Because this is all it EVER, EVER is. A bunch of people sitting around slapping each other on the back while they regurgitate the SAME OLD gripes and complaints over and over again, taking every opportunity they can to dig up ever story criticizing the system for how lame it is, the candidates of the two parties for how lame they are, every single person who in any way, even in the slightest degree disagrees with their position for how stupid they are, and contribute literally nothing to any kind of constructive proactive discussion.

I already apologized to xxxxx several weeks ago for jumping on her case when I shouldn't have - but now I have to say that I would give anything if more of the "progressives" here could take a few lessons from her. I learned that I would rather have people that were passionately committed to the things they really believe in and the candidates with a clear and proactive message for change then I would a bunch of people who have nothing to offer -nothing except mindless cliche negativity about everything else, for the sake of some kind of perverse catharsis.

But you know what I'm coming to believe it really is? I don't think most of you third party progressive really have a fucking clue in your head how to do anything other than sit around and mindlessly bitch about all the old cliches. I don't think you have the first fucking idea how to work for real change. I don't think yo have any idea what you really stand for BEYOND the vague abstracts. And you know what? I'm a little stupmed on that too - the only difference is, I want to work TOGETHER to figure it out and all you want to do is bitch and attack everyone and everything else.

Oh sure, we're all for tax reform, or for living wages or a more equitable society - but how are you and the progressives around you and third party politics or you candidate(s) going to DO that? And I don't just mean what kind of abstract policy would you want to implement. I mean, how are you going build support, change minds, get the transformation in politics that can accommodate that kind of revolutionary policy shift - what are you proactively doing other that bitching every four years with no answers and no plan.

You see, I'm not a democrat who leans progressive. I am a progressive so fed up and disillusioned with the bullshit of people exactly like what I read here that I'm saying to myself "well, fuck it, if I cant do anything else, at least I can help get that dumbass out of the White House."

You keep thinking that somehow if you just insult people enough, regurgitate the same old tired cliche arguments enough, give yet another lecture on the evils of corporatism or the failure of the two party system, if you talk down and belittle people long enough, that eventually they will says "wow, I finally see the light!" But that will never happen. All it really does, is make third party progressive politics look like a lot of bull shit.

All you would have to do is start consistently showing me a positive message of what you are *DOING* what your candidates are doing, a proactive message of hope and action - start showing me candidates with real dreams of change - not just candidates the based their ENTIRE IMAGE on bitching about how bad the system is.

My message to every person committed to third party progressive politics is: "I was one of you, but I'm fucking sick and tired of the bullshit. I'm not interested in some kind of club where we all get together and feel better about ourselves by endlessly bitching about everyone else and berating those who disagree with us. To hell with your rhetorical self-aggrandizing, meaningless bloviating inaction. Either tell me what you're going to DO and how your going to do it or shut the fuck up."

I'd love to be moved to progressive politics again. But all I've seen is a bunch of people just like you, who get off on being pissed off and blaming everything and everyone else who have absolutely NO PLAN whatsoever for real an meaningful change.

I say again, I'm not voting for Kerry because I've given up, sold out, or don't have the courage to vote third party. I'm voting Kerry because I'm so fucking disillusioned with the bullshit of progressives that I think to myself, "well, clearly since they aren't ever going to do anything except blame democrats and bitch about how unfair the system is, I guess at least I can do something by getting that tyrant out of the white house."

You show me progressive third party politics that is about something positive and proactive, not just about the same tired old bitches and complaints and the disdainful insulting treatment of people that don't see it your way, and I'll get on board. Until then, I reject this bullshit bill of goods.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mermaid]

2. Wow...Tell Us How You REALLY Feel, Selwynn!

I actually have to agree with you on this one!

[MODemocrat]

78. I mostly agree with you Selwynn

I got so frustrated that I stayed away from DU for a while. Everytime
things seemed to be getting better, I'd see all the negative "stuff" and crawl right back into my hole. NO MORE. No one is going to break my spirits again. I've come all the way from worshipping Howard Dean to really respecting and liking John Kerry, and no one is going to take me down from here. We need Kerry and Edwards, or our world as we once knew it, cannot survive under Bush, the crazy dictator.

:beer: :shrug: :hug:

[bahrbearian]

3. OK you called me out ,I'll meet you by the bicycle rack at school.

[hippiegranny]

4. great rant

did you get any feedback? given the nature of your rant, i'd say none of them would be interested in your perspective, but there is always hope!

[Selwynn]

7. Nah - that's what a rant is, a take it or leave it statement....

...not expecting dialogue on it, just sick and tired of the non stop bitching.

I doubt even yawn-boy up there can come up with a real plan for actual change even if he tried - all third party progressives seem to be able to do is bitch at everyone else and that's too bad.

I believe, as I always have, that a real progressive revolution will only happen through grassroots changing of hearts and minds of regular ordinary people, not by tackling the "system" from the top down. Change those minds, then get them into city conuncils and school boards, then state legislatures and governorships, then... there is a base for moving to national transformation.

But, I feel admit that I don't have all the answers on how to do that - that's why I long for a community of people committed to that kind of action, not those that are committed to nothing but bitchign about everything that's wrong. I *KNOW* what's wrong. Now what do you want to do about it?

[Pastiche423]

20. Read my post on the "other" board

[Selwynn]

74. No I'm not sure when I'll be back there next.

But it won't be today.

[liberalhistorian]

75. That's all third-party progressives have

EVER been able to do is bitch at everyone else with the same tired cliches and mantras and demand complete adherence on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE, and that is why they've never, ever gotten anywhere even when they've had good points. Even now, they simply refuse to see just how critical this election is, probably the most important one in our history. I swear to God, if they blow this one, I have HAD IT WITH ALL OF THEM!

[alarimer]

80. yes

Take a page from the right wing fundamentalists who came to power by starting small, taking over school boards and the like. And then working up. I think that is the only way to guarantee real change.

[Dookus]

5. good rant, Selwynn

I agree.

I, too, am a progressive Democrat. I have to ask myself every election year: "Can I get any of what I want by voting Republican"? The answer is no. "Can I get any of what I want by voting Green"? Again, the answer is no. So I vote for the Democrats.

That in no way means I agree with everything they do - far from it. But I understand the realities of our political system, and I'll take half-a-loaf over nothing any day of the week.

[kentuck]

6. I'm a disillusioned progressive that's voting for Kerry.....

Because I hold out hope that he will make changes we need. Of course, one seldom gets what one doesn't ask for....If FDR and the Dems had decided to just hold the reins until the next Republican got in office, where would we be today?? I don't have much to say for moderates and yellow stripes in the middle of the road...

[Sparkly]

8. I'm not sure "progressive" is the right word

because, as you point out, these tactics make NO progress at all. It has nothing to do with how "left" a person's political beliefs are -- I'd put any of these "progressives" you're talking about up against Maxine Waters any day of the week -- yet the prevailing notion seems to be that it's more "liberal" and more "progressive" and more "left" (and of course, more caring) to complain about the Democratic party (usually without a clue what the party's platform, record, or legislative goals even are).

They give progressives a bad name, and I sure would like to vote a few off the island.

Thanks for your rant!

[bahrbearian]

10. The GOP way ,my way or the highway, huh?

Your with us or against us?

[Sparkly]

15. Huh?

I'm not sure what you're saying.

[bahrbearian]

23. No consensus , just vote em off the Island.

[Sparkly]

27. Okay, given a democratic process and a fair ballot system

with due enfranchisement of all citizens and the will of the people held sacrosanct, I'd like to vote 'em off the island.

(It was a figure of speech, not a referendum.)

[bahrbearian]

28. Instead of finding a harmonic balance , get rid of em' right.

Kinda like Hitler.

[Sparkly]

32. "Vote 'em off the island" = Hitler??

I didn't propose murdering anybody.

But yes, in a privately-owned site for Democrats, if it were up to me (and it isn't), I'd ban people who bash Democrats with lies, make unfounded accusations, and tear down the party whether they call themselves Republicans or anything else. I know DU gives wider berth to the definition of "shared goals," though, and I respect that.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

21. "your lack of compassion"

Kanary, what ARE you talking about?! I don't know what you're "going through," you never "told me" anything... I know that in another thread you accused "someone" or "Dems" of not caring about death, yours or others, and I said I found that offensive. Perhaps you're referring to that?

You don't know me, I don't know you, and for you to say I have a "lack of compassion" is ridiculous and again, offensive. I don't know what your problem is, literally.

[Kanary]

9. Good point...... but if we DO

extol the virtues of the policies of "our" candidate, then all we get is accused of being childish because our candidate didn't "win".

Y'know, I'd happily talk reasonably about actual proactive issues, but I'm just as ANGRY as you are about being attacked.

If it wasn't so deadly, it would be hilarious that those who are the most vocal about "free speech" are the ones most active in shutting up others. (No, that is NOT directed at you, S.)

:nuke:

Kanary

[Selwynn]

16. I hear ya, BUT - maybe DU isn't the right place for the discussion..

... I mean look, it a democratic site, endorsing Kerry, which is totally fair. I could see how bringing up even proactive posts about other guys would be something to feel defensive about...

I mean, we at DU you could certainly do a bit better about "dialog" at the same time though - I can see how some of the fights here start.

My point was that the site I was at is supposed to be a progressive site - but all that happens there is 50,000 posts about how democrats suck, or the two party system is broke, or corporations are evil. Gee, thanks for the heads up on those last two. :eyes: There is really no excuse for there not being more of a proactive positive agenda there or elsewhere. But I have trouble finding it most places. Even the candidates seem to not really know what they proactively want to do. The seem to quite often spent most of the time complaining about everyone else..

[Kanary]

31. whatever...... good luck on that winning thing

once you've eliminated the progressives

BTW, do you think that's Kerry's agenda, too?

Cuz, if it is, that's not a very good political strateragy... I would guess, with all his vaunted experience, he would have a bit more finnesse than that.

We thank you for clearing this up....... you wanted specific proposals, but now we know that if we actually do that, we'll be told that this isn't "the proper venue".

Hey, that's really good.......

[Selwynn]

62. You misunderstand what I'm saying.

I'm not wanting to eliminate progressives from DU - I'm saying I can at least see how someone who posted all kinds of stuff that felt like a threat to the dem candidate might cause tension - doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, or whatever.

But its insane to go to a sight that is supposed to be a bastion for progressivism and then see nothing but pointless bitching and nothing that has anything to do with proactive pursuit of real change.

That was my only point, I mean no offense. I was only saying I can see how it would create tension here, doesn't mean its right - but its INSANE for a progressive board about progrssivism to have nothing to say other than the same tired old criques that have been made for years.

True though they may be, I'm looking for focus on what to do about it from now on.

[thistle]

11. I don't understand this post. It's pretty long. Can someone explain

to me what this person is talking about?

I can see he's upset about something. He's scaring me! Either he's mad at progressives. Or he IS a progressive who's mad at everybody else. But I am not sure which one. :-)

[indypaul]

22. Hope this helps

"talkin ain't doing"

[mmonk]

12. Get your frustration

I work and try through the Democratic party because I see no real alternative other than banging my head against the wall. Third party barriers to real government access seem quite difficult to me. So all I can do is do my best and influence where I can influence.

[Kanary]

14. Hey, doing your best is all we can do, and you're to be congratulated

for your efforts! :toast:

The problem arises when each person thinks their own way is the ONLY way, and self-righteously bashes others for it.

Your way is OK.

So is mine.

:hi:

Kanary

[mmonk]

18. and for yours

:toast:

[Kanary]

29. Thanks! n/t

[indigobusiness]

17. I'm trading in my

Lawn Boy for a Yawn Boy.

[JNelson6563]

19. Self righteous screed

and your self congratulatory act of re-posting it here magnifies the self righteousness of it.

Julie

[donco6]

42. Agree

Blah, blah, you are all bad because you're not like ME. No one is doing enough, no one is smart enough, no one writes enough, no one protests enough, etc. etc.

Get over yourself, selwynn.

[Selwynn]

63. When you agree its conviction. When you don't its self-righteous.

That's how the game is always played.

I am very self-righteous in the sense that I feel I have something to say and have no problem finding as many places as I can to say it.

[Padraig18]

24. The 'navel gazers' make me want to SCREAM!

I'm a Deanie, but this 'holier than thou', preachy crapola from the idealist navel gazers makes me want to SMACK some one! If most of them cared half as much about their 'progressive ideals' as they say they do, they'd get off of their sob-sister asses and do some grass roots work, like registering new voters, reaching out to voters who have given up or fallen away, etc. .

:grr:

[Pastiche423]

35. How do you know "they" aren't working their asses off

for progressive causes? Do you follow everyone around offline to make sure they aren't sitting on their lazy asses?

[DS1]

41. Exactly.

:boring:

[donco6]

44. I second that.

The original poster knows nothing about me, or what I'm doing.

Yeah, working with ANY organization is frustrating. I'm on two other professional boards, and half the time I'd like to strangle the other side of the table. The backbiting, infighting, maneuvering, it's all sickening. But in the long run, the groups do good things, so I stick it out.

Likewise with the Democrats. Not perfect by a longshot, but the only avenue we have to affect any sort of change.

<to selwynn> Y'now - if you want to work with one of the other parties, go for it! Just don't expect me to join you in dumping on the Dems.

[DS1]

47. There's also a lovely irony in this

A post bitching people out for allegedly doing nothing but bitching, making broad blanket statements that marginalizes all the work a lot of DUers ~do~ for good causes - wagging an angry finger while complaining about the lack of civility.

Give me a fucking break. Although it's about time we had one of these threads where the typical yesmen go "Agreed" and get back to doing nothing and those of us that do plenty of good things decide that we've had enough of defending ourselves from these charges and basically tell you to jam it.

:hi:

[jpgray]

46. Because some of them can post for six hours at a stretch on DU?

Not much in that schedule, by my estimation.

[DS1]

48. and you can't write letters, call congressmen, create flyers

at a computer. I suppose there isn't a single handicapped DUer in your perfect little world.

[jpgray]

50. Sorry--this sounds to me like believing in Santa Claus

Not everyone who spends too much of their time bitching on the internet is handicapped--that's so silly an assertion I don't know how to respond. Are you trying to scare me off from criticizing someone who just pontificates on a message board by saying that one handicapped person who does so must silence that criticism? Not everyone who spends an inordinate amount of time online is handicapped, but also not all are engaged in some awesome array of multitasked progressive efforts. I would wager, in fact, that most simply sit on their asses and type. That includes me.

A lot of the time I spend on DU could be better spent elsewhere in terms of making a real difference in our world. DU to me is very valuable to understand the ideas and feeling of other progressives, and it's a great place to hash something out with people of varying viewpoints, but doing the things you mention or participating in progressive groups in your community will probably give you more bang for your buck results wise.

[DS1]

It's about as silly as assuming that if someone can post here

for six hours, they don't do anything productive, which was exactly the point.

[jpgray]

52. OK, now you're inserting your own question

The original question wasn't about 'doing something productive', it was along the lines of how do you know these people aren't working hard for progressive causes when offline? I simply gave an example wherein it would be pretty clear that their schedule is largely filled up with DU posting. Working for progressive causes when online wasn't even brought up, I don't think, until you brought it up.

[Padraig18]

54. How do I know, you ask?

Because I go to university with hundreds (if not thousands) of them, and I know firsthand that they'd rather post whines and assorted screeds on message boards and spout off in coffee shops than get off their pristine, idealist arses and do some real grassroots work, because I've ASKED them to, and they're always 'too busy/fill in lame-ass excuse here'...

THAT'S how I know.

:eyesL

[Pastiche423]

55. lol

All DUers go to your university?

[Padraig18]

56. Oh, please

Your reducio ad absurdum riposte is ridiculous; DU-ers are NOT that unique, Pastiche...
:eyes:

[Pastiche423]

64. No

Your statement that because your university friends are lazy assed, the majority of DUers are too, is ridiculous.

Me thinks you need to get out in the REAL world a wee bit more.

[Cuban_Liberal]

67. No, your statement is at least as absurd.

You have no more evidence to support your statement than he does his--- less, in point of fact.

[Pastiche423]

81. What statement of mine needs support?

[VOX]

25. I hear you, Selwynn. Real change will come with *discipline*...

Discipline is quality sadly lacking across the left side of the political spectrum. And with disclipine comes compromise, which, of course, is a dirty word.

Until such time as Democrats, liberals and progressives *all* start pulling together, there will be no positive changes.

Discipline allows changes to occur by degrees. It means making some tough choices, and perhaps holding one's ideals in check while urgent priorities are confronted first.

Our opponents are not lacking in discipline. They have their infighting, but, in the end, they stick together. There are numerous examples of this -- McCain campaiging for *, or the right-wing installation of an action-figure moderate governor in California. They are willing to take their victories by small steps, and have done so for years, which is why they currently have the upper hand.

Being high-minded and true to one's ideals would be admirable qualities if the house weren't on fire. It's time to put vanity aside, line up shoulder-to-shoulder, and start passing the water-buckets. And quickly.

[BeFree]

45. House 'afire!

Ain't that the truth? Keep yer ass in line and keep the water buckets coming or get the hell down the road. This is no time for ego building. Be a part of the team or git.

John Kerry is gonna make a great President because we are gonna help him, over the next 8 years, be the best he can be.

Be the best he can be. Are ya with JK, or are ya agin him? Ask yourself that question. Are yee against JK?

The House is 'afire. We need your help... yeah, You! C'mon!

[TeacherCreature]

26. Surely you can find a solution in one of the following

DFA (it is democrats, but those who want to take back the party and remake it as a more populist socially liberal entity)
ACT
Take Back America
Progressive Majority
21st century democrats (if you want to with-in the party to pull the party to the left}

[bahrbearian]

33. We had a chance , now back to the Satus Quo.

[Selwynn]

71. Part of the problem may be I have the wrong community experiences...

...locally... I don't have much selection. I live in idaho. I'm trying to get ideas out there, and there is some green party base in Boise, but its difficult. Not many options.

Via the internet... I'm probably dealing with groups I should just bail on. But still, I really sense a very strong prevasive pattern where it feels like much of hte prog community is great an pointing out what's wrong and poor at suggesting what real, concrete things can be consistently done about it - think that will really ammount to something and not just be symbolic gestures

[iconoclastic cat]

30. Yep, that about covers it!

[Career Prole]

34. Wow...just...wow.

Excellent rant. :)
It even made me feel better!

[InkAddict]

36. Well, excusssse me!

Tuesday I phone banked; today I canvassed. Sticks & stones bucko!

[InkAddict]

37. Well, excussse me!

Friday I sat in the ER w/Gramps from 8PM to 4AM Sat, so then I slept way in - Monday, I tidyed up the house and made a contribution, Tuesday, I phone banked, Wednesday I sold a gift certificate so I could buy medicine, Thursday was H2O day, you know, cleanliness is next to well...something anyway, Friday I volunteered for neighborhood canvassing and I actually showed up to do it today. Sticks & stones, bucko - we all do more than sit around complaining = NO FEAR, NO SHAME, but like you, PLENTY OF Anger Managment to go around!

[InkAddict]

38. Well, excusssse me!

Friday I sat in the ER w/Gramps from 8PM to 4AM Sat, so then I slept way in - Monday, I tidyed up the house and made a contribution, Tuesday, I phone banked, Wednesday I sold a gift certificate so I could buy medicine, Thursday was H2O day, you know, cleanliness is next to well...something anyway, Friday I volunteered for neighborhood canvassing and I actually showed up to do it today. Sticks & stones, bucko - we all do more than sit around complaining = NO FEAR, NO SHAME, but like you, PLENTY OF Anger Managment to go around!

[InkAddict]

39. Well, excuse me?

Friday I sat in the ER w/Gramps from 8PM to 4AM Sat, so then I slept way in - Monday, I tidyed up the house and made a contribution, Tuesday, I phone banked, Wednesday I sold a gift certificate so I could buy medicine, Thursday was H2O day, you know, cleanliness is next to well...something anyway, Friday I volunteered for neighborhood canvassing and I actually showed up to do it today. Sticks & stones, bucko - we all do more than sit around complaining = NO FEAR, NO SHAME, but like you, PLENTY OF Anger Managment to go around!

[InkAddict]

40. Lots of anger management needed?

Friday I sat in the ER w/Gramps from 8PM to 4AM Sat, so then I slept way in - Monday, I tidyed up the house and made a contribution, Tuesday, I phone banked, Wednesday I sold a gift certificate so I could buy medicine, Thursday was H2O day, you know, cleanliness is next to well...something anyway, Friday I volunteered for neighborhood canvassing and I actually showed up to do it today.

Sticks & stones, bucko - we all do more than sit around complaining = NO FEAR, NO SHAME, but like you, in need of PLENTY OF Anger Managment to go around! RANT AWAY

[Selwynn]

43. Learn to use the boards maybe? :) (edit..)

Sorry, that subject line sounded ruder than I meant it to.

I was just teasing. It's great that you're involved. But that doesn't change the fact that this seems to me to be the exception, rather than the rule.

The rule is, do a lot of complaining and a lot of rhetorical postulating, and have no idea of how to do anything proactive, what to be for, or how to take steps towards long term change..

[InkAddict]

77. No offfense taken

I got lost in my windows but DID get some sort of bug message from DU. I've reported same and asked for deletion of extra posts, you can check in the bug forum.

I've been disillusioned w/status quo since the mid '80s when I believe my spouse's right of "due process" was ignored. It took me a long time before I could stand for the national anthem, and just when I thought I was getting over it, the 2000 selection, 9/11, unemployment and the big bait & switch - I've just got to DO something. Thru out, I've been a good little scout, but NO MORE! I sure hope it's just not because I was raised in a Rethug household time-warped back to the 50s and wasn't allowed to participate in the 60's. I supported my drafted GI Joe then though he didn't see Nam - really bad, cause he drew, not bought, Ft. Myers/Pentagon as a duty station. W/only 184 days left, they did try to ship him out from Oakland and some powers more attuned let him chase AWOLS around the city for a week until his time in was below the time allowed to ship out. On my own at last, the horrors of corporate war and domestic greed have all but consumed the life out of my family since the 80s. I don't understand why they want this for America. I hope my small contributions help - THIS ATTACK ON CIVIL LIBERTIES, UNCONSTITUTIONAL WAR, AND private corporate government MUST BE STOPPED DEAD in it's tracks.

[Walt Starr]

49. Yo, dude, most of us who are fed up with the Democratic Party

are still going to vote Democratic one last time.

But never ever EVER count on our vote again. It just ain't happening by default. The first step in change will be getting rid of Bush and every Repuke fuck like him.

Second step is starting on the Democratic Party.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Ahhh..did the nasty leftists get you upset?

Tsk, tsk. God, they just insist on telling the truth!! Oh, how thoughtless of them. It upsets the moderates so much. Why, they should do something meaningful, like..like..sell out? Like go along with the bosses so they can get some "meaningful change"? Just give a little here and there? Compromise a bit..like on invading Iraq? What's a few thousand lives in the name of "party unity"? Shucks, it's just being "practical".

We're not giving up, or going away, and we have you outnumbered. There's a whole world of people who have had their fill of American Imperialism and their apologists.

[Sparkly]

57. "Leftists?!"

Let me say again that this isn't about political beliefs, nor the fervency with which they are held. I think Selwynn's post made that pretty clear, as well. So the "it upsets the moderates so much" doesn't fly.

The world isn't black and white; you "sell out" everytime you buy gas, or lettuce (because the lettuce bought gas, which pollutes and supports bad policies and bad people). Many of us have lives which use little or no gas, but you get the point, I hope. Paper, fiberglass, imports of all kinds -- it's all a sell-out on some level. It's hard for me to believe that you are so perfect, bandera, that you *never* "sell out" on any level, you're never "practical," you never "compromise," you never have to weigh anything and go for that which has the most value in gaining progress...

[Selwynn]

59. Not that they tell the truth - its that they are SILENT on what matters

I'm not asking you to give up, or go away. As for having "us" outnumbered. I don't think so. This country is nowhere remotely close to progressive thinking.

If you read, you would see that I hold progressive beliefs myself. I agree with the criticisms of corporate strangleholds, of the two party homogenized system. Of the weakness of the democratic partying ever drifting to the right.

It is the very fact that I agree, that frustrates me most. The vast majority voice for progressives is one that just keeps rehersing the same old tired message. While people like me are screaming, "that's great now what to we proactively DO TO CHANGE THINGS" the progressive world keeps refusing to answer the question, and instead just repeats its old criticisms. I think its becuase we don't know what to do.

Progressive: coroporations have to much power
Me: I agree how do we change it
Progressive: the dominiate politics and rob us of real free choices
ME: I said I agree, what do we do about it
Progessive: the democratic party has abandoned genuine liberal principles and forsaken progrssive ideas
ME: I agree, so what should we do to work towards putting those ideals in place?
Progressive: Kerry is trying to be as close to Bush as he can.
ME: look for the five BILLIONTH TIME - I FUCKING AGREE. DO YOU HAVE A FUCKING PLAN, DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO ABOUT IT OR ARE YOU JUST HERE TO BE A FUCKING WINDBACK WITH NO IDEA HOW TO ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING...
Progressive:.... umm... the two party system is lame.
ME: OH MY GOD!!!!

You seem not to get it. I agree with every criticism of the system, of the parties and the like. I totally agree. But unless you have a real plan for actually changing things that doesn't just ammount to a throw away symbolic gesture of a vote once ever four years, then bug off.

[Suzi Creamcheese]

53. I think you have put your finger on the whole Nader/Kerry thing

I'm not as angry as you are but I am having a hard time deciding between being For a candidate who represents positions I can be proud of but who doesn't have a good chance of winning, or just AGAINST Bush in which case I vote for Kerry because he has a better chance of beating Bush. In one case I am building something for our country's future, even though there will probably not be a payoff now. In the other case I am just tearing something down that I dislike.

[Selwynn]

69. I understand the dillemma - its a tough choice..

I wish more people could discuss it respectfully more often (none of us do it perfectly all the time.) :)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

58. Personally - I have made it a mission to point to news of Africa

when I can. I do get into arguments but its generally either defending Hugo Chavez or Hip Hop music (argh!!!)

I see your complaint as valid in many ways though.

[Joanne98]

60. Your right. We need to get radical.

But how do we do that when people cringe at the word? Howard Dean was inspiring but now we're back to the lesser of two evils. What to do. Vote for Bush? Stay home? NOT!!!!!!!!!

[KG]

61. these are 'discussion boards'

people discuss issues on them. what the fuck do you expect from them?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

66. i like to use discussion boards to meet hot leftist babes.

and get in 'heated' discussion about 'positions' and how to use our 'heads' to enact our 'agendas'.

how about you? :hi:

[Pastiche423]

73. Well, that's taking action!

Hmmm, I'm not into hot leftists babes. They don't float my..... uh....... you know.

[Selwynn]

70. Yeah that's me..

Hard work in what way? Dedication to what?

Give me some answers, not jingoistic plattitudes.

better yet, answer me this: what are you for, and what is your plan to accomplish it?

[Selwynn]

68. They don't "discuss" what matters

They reguritate the same old critiques with nothing relevant to say on how to fix the problems.

And I'm not specifically refering to one board - I am refering to my feelings and impressions after considering myself an progressive thinker and dealing with the progressive community for a long time. I'm very tired of having our number one defining characteristic be what we're AGAINST. Ok, I know what we're against. I'm despararely anxious to start shifting to what we're for, how we plan to get it, and how to make it happen.

In my post, I refer to someone who posted like that about howard dean. The one think I really appreciated was that her posts were proactive - here's what Dean is DOING, here's what we can DO, here's another way to get involved, here's how we can ACT. That's whatI want to see more of. I know all the criticisms of everyone else by heart. I believe them too. But I'm tired of that being what defines progressive minded people - what we're against. I want to work toward a larger progressive communtity that deliverately chooses to focus on what its for, and how it plans to make that happen in some fashion that is MORE than a once every for years stand up and snidely comment on the failures of the democratic party kind of thing.

[Northwind]

72. I was a founding member of that craphole

But I have not posted there in over 2 months, nor do I plan to start. What began as something with promise quickly became a haven for fundamentlist progressive authoritarians, Naderoids, and bitter, malcontented a-holes who could not let things go. NO ONE was more pissed off than me at the results of the primary, but what happened, happened, and staying mad about it accomplishes nothing.

Funny thing, that site was originally a meeting place for Dean peoplke, but now, Dean is the antichrist there because he dared to speak against St. Ralph, and they even hate Kucinich now that he came to terms with the Democratic Party.

The membership there ceased to grow months ago, and most of the listed members no longer post there. Waste of bandwidth.

Really funny thing, I designed the logo and all their cafe press gear! :silly:

[Nazgul35]

79. no but you evidently still stop by...

or how would you know this...

and they even hate Kucinich now that he came to terms with the Democratic Party.

Since it only happened a few days ago....

It is also disengenuous of you as if you look at the posters, you are onyl talking about 4-5 people.....and I would argue that DU has the very same problems, they are just hidden better by the vast number of posters here *cough*.....

[Nazgul35]

76. This is unfair for several reasons

that have been expressed to you in other posts, and is a bit disengenuous on your part.

First, the fact that you can not name the other site, but that discussion of all kinds are allowed at the other site, including the topics you listed is a high light, not a low light...

Second, you must have a short memory! One does not have to go back very far to remember similar threads directed by supporters of different Democrats against other Democratic candidates. In short the tone and dialog here was rancid on the part of certain posters here....

Third, you can't post those types of thread at DU because they get locked...so the comparison is rather lame...They may be allowed to post tons of threads that I personally do not agree with (and hope you can attest to as I expect to get flamed)...but you should never be afraid of speech of any kind, even those you do not agree with...

To dismiss their viewpoint because it does not meet your particular brand of dialog is a rather silly argument, especially when you take five minutes to look around DU on any issue that the community is divided on....would you like a list?

So you point is that there is a forum that allows a much broader spectrum of viewpoints, thus allowing for the possibility of conflict on issues....but you prefer DU, where the viewpoints are restricted and the voices are eliminated should they not meet the community standard....not quit a lot of Democracy in this underground...

and more's the shame!!!

[Moderator]

82. I'm locking this thread

It has been discussed in the mod forum that
"the other site" mentioned in the original
post is referring to a site which the Administration
of Democratic Underground wishes not to be discussed
on DU . So this will be locked as inflammatory .