Did Bush* Receive an Undesireable Discharge?

[AlabamaYankee]

I did a search and couldn't find any posts on this, but Corrente is reporting that the "AWOL Payroll Records Jedi Master Paul Lukasiak" was looking for the DD214, Honorable Discharge, and found a note, "DD FORM 258AF will be furnished" This is the obsolete "Undersireable Discharge form.

Isanyone following this up?

Check it out at http://www.corrente.blogspot.com/

[Spinzonner]

1. No, but he has one

it comes from his mouth

[jimshoes]

2. I don't know if that's true

but I'd sure like to see that turn up.

[Disturbed]

5. Shrub will get one soon.

From millions of voters, maybe even a Dishonorable one.

[RoadRunner]

3. It looks like this is where it is

on page 24:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/10-3_2000_Personnel_File.pdf

[Fovea]

4. Not only would I like to see this document,

I would like to see it on a full page NYT advert from MoveOn.

[Must_B_Free]

6. yep,

ewww..
:puke:

[RoadRunner]

7. Here's the actual documents

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/10-3_2000_Personnel_File.pdf (see page 24)





http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/julqtr/pdf/32cfr887.8.pdf

[DieboldMustDie]

29. Holy shit!

In November 1974 Shrubby and I were living about a block and a half apart. :wow:

[Mr_Spock]

30. You're contaminated - stay away from me!

j/k

[RoadRunner]

8. I sent this to BartCop.

Maybe he'll give it some publicity.

[Webster Green]

9. Holy shit!.....This seems rather huge!

If this is true....he's done! I don't know how they would put a positive spin on an undesirable discharge.

[TrueAmerican]

10. nevermind

disregard

[Sparkly]

11. DAYum...

Is it possible the Machine missed something this big, in letters that small?

Hmmmm... :) Here's hoping!!

[Rose Siding]

12. It's being debunked in the comments at 'corrente'

before this goes much further...

Although it appears to me that the form says 258, I have just discovered that an AF Form 256 was used for honorable discharges...

Given that what we are looking at are PDF copies of microfilmed records, it is possible that the number is "256" and not "258"

the document in question can be found in its original state at

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personnel_File.pdf page 20 and http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/10-3_2000_Personnel_File.pdf page 24
p. lukasiak | Email | Homepage | 07.24.04 - 7:11 pm | #

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 26 of the USA Today document is clearer- it appears to be 256, not 258. This doesn't look like a path worth following.
bryguy | Email | Homepage | 07.24.04 - 7:45 pm | #

*EDIT- Looks more like an '8' to me but I'm half blind.

[Sparkly]

13. Looks like an "8" to me, in the second link of yours

I can't seem to open the first one.

[Corgigal]

14. Just magnified it 400 percent

and the 8 above it has a larger bottom. So does the number in question. Check it yourself and you'll see.

[RoadRunner]

15. Looks like an "8" to me, but can't be certain

[Sparkly]

17. No way that's a 6

Wouldn't the curve at the left side be continuous, rather than snowman shaped?

[Must_B_Free]

18. it IS an 8

no doubt in the world.
586

how can you mistake an 8 for a 6?

I guess if history has shown your leader to be deceitful and muderous, it looks like a 6.

[DrBB]

20. "...and honorably discharged" is what it says

i mean, that's what the actual text says, right there above the number. I have no doubt the jerk shirked his duty, but this isn't looking like it's gonna pan out.

[RoadRunner]

21. But, see post #19

"When the sole reason for separation is drug abuse as specified
in paragraph 13-5a( 3) (b), the individual will be
furnished an honorable or general discharge certificate
as warranted by the particular circumstances
in a given case. The type of discharge will
be directed by the convening authority."

[DrBB]

25. Well, it's a good point

It's an intriguing little paragraph you've found there. I'll try to keep my mind open on this one, but having got all het up about it at first glance, I'm skeptical.

[John_H]

16. Mediawhores: DO NOT REPORT THIS

If you do, they will bring Ari back for the sole purpose of calling all your friends to inform them you are gay. And Canadian.

[Fuzz]

19. HOLY CRAP. This form is issued for DRUG USE!!!

http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/regulation27.pdf


Section 13-31

"13-31. Types of separations. a. Au individual
separated by reason of unfitness will be furnished
an undesirable discharge certificate (DD Form
258A), except that an honorable (DD Form 256A)
or general (DD Form 257A) discharge certificate
may be awarded if the individual has been awarded
a personal decoration or if warranted by the particular
circumstances in a given case. When the
sole reason for separation is drug abuse as specified
in paragraph 13-5a( 3) (b), the individual will be
furnished an honorable or general discharge certificate
as warranted by the particular circumstances
in a given case. The type of discharge will
be directed by the convening authority."


And paragraph 13-5a states

13-5. Applicability. An individual is subject to
separation under this chapter when one or more
of the following conditions exist :
a. Unfitness.
(1) Frequent incidents of a discreditable
nature with civil or military authorities.
(2) Sexual perversion, including but not limited
to-
(a) Lewd and lascivious acts.
(b) Indecent exposure.
(c) Indecent acts with or assault upon a
child.
(d) Other indecent acts or offenses.
(3) Drug abuse, defined as-
(a) Drug dependence, or the unauthorized
use, sale, possession, or transfer of any controlled
substance as defined in AR 600-50, or the introduction of such controlled substance onto any Army installation or other Government property under Army jurisdiction.

[RoadRunner]

22. Damn!

So that explains why he could have this "undesirable" certificate AND an honorable discharge! It's up to "the convening authority."

[Sparkly]

23. So could there be an "honorable" yet "undesirable" discharge?

I'm searching through the PDFs, but I'm confused!

[Sparkly]

24. Found it!!

"In such cases, separation will be under honorable conditions as specified in paragraph 13-31a."

Exactly as you cited.

DAYum....

[troublemaker]

26. This is a bogus story

Back in the day we used typewriters and all the letters were roughly the same size. The small print everyone is trying to read is not typed, it is pre-printed on the form, which is a pre-printed form for honorable discharges, as it says. Context matters.

I do understand the concept of an undesirable discharge that is technically an honorable discharge, but I doubt there's a form for it that makes no allusion to the fact anywhere but in a single digit of a form to follow.

[Sparkly]

27. "DD FORM ... will be furnished" looks typed

I may be wrong.

But please note that there was an "undesireable" yet "honorable" discharge for drug use.

http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/regulation27.pdf

[Sparkly]

28. No, I'm wrong

I think it's one or the other...

Sorry.

[Mr_Spock]

31. Yes, this seems reasonable to me too - I just don't see any clear

evidence of an "undesirable" discharge. I am interested in the still missing documents though and where he was when he was playing hookie. A lot of rich snots would be able to get a "honorable" discharge, but that certainly doesn't mean that they were honorable. I mean he seemed to have signed up because he got into trouble with the law, then he got in trouble again in the ANG. He seems like a real spoiled jerk.

[NightOwwl]

32. From Bill Press column

<snip> according to Separation and Retirement Procedures for today's Air National Guard, those eligible for honorable discharge include people who fail to comply with requirements for a medical examination; who abuse drugs; who have unsatisfactory participation; or whom the service is unable to locate <snip>

So if this is correct an honorable discharge doesn't necessarily mean he left the Guard in good graces.

link:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37092

[senseandsensibility]

33. And since half of his

records are missing(destroyed), how will we ever know?:argh: