To anyone here who is not part of the DFA

[freetobegay]

Have you scanned their forums? I now have a sense of where the tripe comes from thats being posted on DU. Now this is only my opinion from what I have seen (remember my opinion) I think they want Kerry to lose.

[lastknowngood]

1. Bullshi* Kerry wants to lose. DFA is the only future for the

democratic party, without progressives the DNC is just more Republicans. Remember the DNC/DLC/RNC are doing everything they can do to undermine DFA because it is people powered and not big money powered.

[freetobegay]

2. Sorry that did not answer the question.

Does the DFA want Kerry to lose? It's a straight forward question.

On edit: The reason I ask there is no mention of the Kerry/Edwards anywhere on their site. I could not find any postitive posts in the forums, only negitive one's. I have listened to little bits & pieces about DFA here on DU for awhile now, so I finally decided to go take a look for myself. It wasn't a pretty site (IMO).

[ronabop]

5. No, DFA folks realize that Kerry is the best current option.

And should also be a one term president (if possible) , to be replaced by an actual liberal, or progressive, or maybe even a democrat.

-Bop

[JI7]

24. Dean endorses Lynch in Dem Gov primary over more progressive opponent

<KEENE, June 29 – Former Vermont Governor and one-time Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean endorsed John Lynch’s gubernatorial campaign over his more progressive opponent.

In an interview with PoliticsNH.com, Dean said he thought Lynch (D-Hopkinton) was more electable than State Rep. Paul McEachern (D-Portsmouth), who backs a state-wide income tax.

“I’ve supported Paul McEachern in the past, but the fact is that we need to win this race and John can win it. I think we saw what happened in the past with a pro-income tax candidate,” Dean said. “Craig Benson is as bad for New Hampshire as George Bush is for America and we need a change this time.”>

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2004/June/6_...

[ronabop]

42. Lynch: Same thing, different office.

Most electable is not the same as best for the job, most progressive, or best for the platform issues. Getting progressives, liberals, and democrats in office doesn't work if the forces behind them want an instant revolution. Politics just don't work that way.

-Bop

edit:
If you wanted Lynch, and got burned, welcome to the Dean camp of "this current political engine totally sucks!". This is the same thing the DLC did to Dean, they targeted "electability" over message and substance. To move things to the left, the movement has to be slow, measured, and steady.

[Robbien]

3. I am not sure what disturbs you

The Progressives do not agree with the DLC. They will help the DLC get Bush out, but do not expect the Progressives to be Kerrybots once the DLC Kerry gets into office.

[freetobegay]

4. "Kerrybots"

did not crash & burn like say "Deaniacs" during the primaries.

[Robbien]

6. You are trying to pick a fight by slurring Deaniacs

But I will not bite, because I did not support Dean.

Progressives do not support Kerry, but want Bush out of office more than their dislike of Kerry. So don't worry, you have the Progressive support on November 2nd. But not after that date.

[JI7]

9. i'm a progressive and i support Kerry

[Robbien]

12. Many Progressives do

That's okay too.

[RoyGBiv]

16. Me too n/t

:kick:

[Tarheel_Dem]

48. me three!

n/t

[freetobegay]

See thats where you have me wrong

I personally don't want your support for Kerry if you don't like him, thats just hypocrisy. Run your own candidate oh wait aminute you did already.

And talking about picking fights, I wouldn't have even bothered to vist that site (DFA) if there wasn't so much bull posted here from people that are from over there.

[Robbien]

13. You are now saying you do not want Progressive support?

In your first post you said you were worried that the Progressives were not supporting Kerry.

Which is it?

[freetobegay]

17. Would you like to quote my first post where I said that?

Sorry I don't see it. I do not want anyone to support Kerry if they don't think he would be a good President. Can that be any more clearer?

[Robbien]

25. What did this part mean then

You said I think they want Kerry to lose.

I took that to mean you didn't think they would vote to get Bush out of office.

[freetobegay]

26. Thats exactly what I meant

Not all progressives are DFA. Just look at me. Thats the impression the DFA is giving me on Kerry. Make sense now?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

31. huh ?

because he doesn't like or agree with dfa he has "mental problems" ?

[Robbien]

32. You are right, this is a weird conversation. It's time to click the "hide"

button on the thread.

[Classical_Liberal]

70. You have supported the war, Nafta and more welfare reform

so you aren't that progressive. You are a conservative Dem, and he reflects your views better than he does the dfa.

[JI7]

18. ftbg is talking about DFA not Progressives

[Classical_Liberal]

67. I just joined DFA

I'll bet your bullshit comes from NDOL or the DLC site. Big fricking deal, you don't own the forum.

[ronabop]

7. Attack ads and "scream" hatchet jobs...

Don't exactly unite the party, and they don't get forgotten.

The primaries were uglier than they should have been, and look, the DLC got, well, a DLC moderate!

-Bop

[Speed8098]

47. "a DLC moderate"

You obviously know nothing about John Kerrys' voting record.

If you did, you would not be referring to him as a moderate. Hell, he is left of Ted Kennedy.

Debate and discussion are good things........when you know what you're discussing and debating.

[ronabop]

49. Okay, that's a RNC tactic...

Claiming that Kennedy is somehow leftist, and then claiming superior knowledge... lol.

Is John Kerry personally pro-life, or pro-choice?
Did Kerry vote for PATRIOT or not?
Did Kerry vote for the IWR or not?

Are there no people who voted otherwise? None?

Are you claiming that there are no people in congress who have *more* left voting records? Not Majette? Kucinich?

-Bop

[Speed8098]

52. "Okay, that's a RNC tactic"

Ok, I'll let that go because you're new. But don't EVER accuse me of
being repuke again. Disagree, fine. But don't accuse me when you know nothing about me.


Claiming that Kennedy is somehow leftist

How would you describe Ted Kennedy? Conservative? Moderate? or Liberal?

and then claiming superior knowledge... lol
Where did I claim superior knowledge? I just questioned yours.

Is John Kerry personally pro-life, or pro-choice?

Kerry is Pro-Choice and has been, in his votes

Did Kerry vote for PATRIOT or not?
Yes, as did many MISINFORMED members of Senate

Did Kerry vote for the IWR or not?
Have you not heard him speak of this resolution?
That was NOT a vote for war, it was a vote to make Saddam show his hand. When chimpy went unilaterally, we all freaked, including Kerry

Are you claiming that there are no people in congress who have *more* left voting records? Not Majette? Kucinich?

What's your point here?
Who's the projected nominee? Kucinich? Majette?
Have either one of them been in the Senate nearly as long as Kerry?
Have they attended even half the number of votes Kerry has?


That's not to say DK is not progressive. I would love to see someone like him get the nod. He didn't. Kerry did.
Regardless of what you say, Kerry is progressive and has been for a long long time.

Now....Why are you coming out as if Kerry is right leaning? He never has been. I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Please clarify.

[HFishbine]

66. Relax

He said you were using a right wing TACTIC -- well within the bounds of appropriate duscussion on DU.

[Speed8098]

77. Relax?

I don't see anything in my reply that refers to you. Do you?

I can read.

To say someone is using some sort of RNC tactic, means that person is acting in the way a member of the RNC would act, hence, he/she was accusing me of being a republican.

That is an RNC tactic in and of itself.
When your position is weak, attack.
We see it here from the lurkers everyday.
Or maybe you didn't recognize that Fish.

[mdmc]

58. yup he's a real live leftie

can't ja tell!

Look, I'm comfortable with Kerry. I live in NY, so the best I can do is GOTV in Ohio and NH.

Dean supporters planned on doing this. Kerry won. Now Kerry can plan to do this or he can run a bush lite campaign. Kerry may think that running up the middle will have better results than having a bunch of leftie Kucinich and Dean supporters GOTV in a swing states.

I mean, look how electable DFA made Dean.

[Classical_Liberal]

72. He is a member of the DLC, and the DLC itself considers him

to be a dlc moderate. Kerry also considers himself a dlc moderate. Just look at the first five articles in this google search.

http://www.google.com/search?q=dlc+kerry&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

This is not a statement without evidence.

[lastknowngood]

10. Kerry is the selected looser by the DNC/DLC/RNC and remember

the power structure stays even if Kerry wins. Dean was a threat to all of them because the people were supporting him not the big money class. If you don't like DFA your not a Democrat anyway your just a moderate repug. The democratic party has moved so far to the right they can't even discuss democratic issues. The only thing coming out of Kerry's and the other pink tu tu Dem's mouths are KKKarl Rove's talking points, mostly agreeing with them with some slight modification. Clear direct challenges to the lies put out by the fascists is the only way to return to the democratic party.

[JI7]

11. HAHHAHAHAHHA

i'm not the "big money class". and i never supported dean.

[freetobegay]

35. Dean was threat? Now thats Funny

One of the fastest crash & burns I ever saw for a primary! LOL

[HFishbine]

68. What is your problem?

You're bitching that some progressives don't appear to be supporting Kerry to a level satisfying to you, and then you taunt them and poke sticks in their eyes -- it's a damn good thing I decided to leave the attitudes of DU posters out of my decision-making process, or you alone would account for a lost Kerry vote from this voter.

What exactly do you think you're accomplishing?

[JI7]

8. many Kerry supporters are progressives

one of the problems with supporters of some other candidates is they assume they are the only ones who are liberal or progressive and the supporters of others are less than that.

and i believe freetobegay supported Clark for president and for vp. many of those who are strong supporters of kerry and edwards now are those who didn't even support them in the primary. they are part of the democratic base. they accept most of the party voted for someone else and is getting behind that person rather than acting like victims and bashing the candidates as some others do.

[freetobegay]

14. You are correct I wanted Wesley clark, but when that didn't

Happen, I cheerfully jumped on the Kerry bandwagon, after all I am a Democrat! I have already succeeded in what i wanted to do with this thread. I didn't think they would make it so easy for me to show them for what they are.

[HFishbine]

69. "show them for what they are."

What is that exactly? Don't be coy.

[Classical_Liberal]

75. freetobegay is definately a dlc type democrat

with his support of nafta more welfare reform and war. My mother is a progressive Kerry supporter, but she also doesn't know about Kerry's record. She isn't a party activist, and is uninformed.

[VoteDemocratic2004]

15. What is the DFA?

I am stupid.

[Robbien]

19. Democrats for America

The people in charge of the Democratic Party are the DLC whose views are center/center right. The Democrats for America is for those of us who are left of center.

[VoteDemocratic2004]

21. I am left of Center

I am part of the DFA.

I haven't gone to bed yet you have to excuse me.

:loveya:

[freetobegay]

22. That is utterly false! & you know it!

Try Democracy for America. Your not going to steal the Democratc name from us!

[HFishbine]

71. "Your not going to steal the Democratc name from us!"

Who is "us?" The Democratic Leadership Council? The Democratic Party? The Democratic Progressive Caucus? The Democratic National Committee? Seems a lot of groups utilize the word.

Who is it that you think owns "Democratic?" DemocraticUnderground?

[Classical_Liberal]

76. It's not stealing. If we bump you war hawks out of the leadership

of the Party it will be true progress, and we'll do it fair and square.

[JI7]

23. Dean endorses Lynch in Dem Gov primary over more progressive opponent

<KEENE, June 29 – Former Vermont Governor and one-time Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean endorsed John Lynch’s gubernatorial campaign over his more progressive opponent.

In an interview with PoliticsNH.com, Dean said he thought Lynch (D-Hopkinton) was more electable than State Rep. Paul McEachern (D-Portsmouth), who backs a state-wide income tax.

“I’ve supported Paul McEachern in the past, but the fact is that we need to win this race and John can win it. I think we saw what happened in the past with a pro-income tax candidate,” Dean said. “Craig Benson is as bad for New Hampshire as George Bush is for America and we need a change this time.”>

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2004/June/6_29dean.shtml

if that's the case how do you explain this

[Robbien]

28. Dean can support whichever candidate he wishes

I will support my Progressive local candidates.

[freetobegay]

20. Here is their website

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/07/02/about_democracy_for_america.php

You can decide for yourself.

[tkmorris]

27. Well now, THIS is useful discussion material

Oh wait, it's just tripe dressed up. My bad. As you were.

[freetobegay]

29. Yes very useful discussion

Know thy enemy.

[mandyky]

33. Do you mean the DFA blog?

Would you care to give an example? I read the blog all the time. Some people support Nader, but most want shrub out and will vote for Kerry.

[freetobegay]

34. Not the blog, their forum.

[w13rd0]

36. The forum?

Wow, you should have been there during the primaries. Very loosely controlled, and filled with a pretty wide assortment, where the noise often drowns out reason. Kind of like many of the threads here.

Maybe you should refrain from slandering persons when it's clear you are making judgements based on incomplete evidence. That's the sort of shoddy logic that makes one vote to go to war based on lies.

[freetobegay]

37. "based on incomplete evidence"?

I read the forums & to further back up what I said where are the Kerry/Edwards banners? Is it not a Democratic site? Is Kerry/Edwards not the ones running against the Bush cabal?

"That's the sort of shoddy logic that makes one vote to go to war based on lies." Couldn't resist could you? Thanks for reinforcing What I said about that website.

[w13rd0]

38. You read the forums, but that's not representative...

...hell, it wasn't even representative during the primaries. And no, I couldn't resist, because I've watched you throw barbs and be a typical DLC booster for quite some time. I'm just thankful it's not you that I'm being asked to vote for, but Kerry, and I find Kerry far less a boorish, whorish, divisive person than Bush.

[freetobegay]

40. I am a Democratic Booster Period

If that means embracing the DLC so be it.

I was born Independant & raised Democrat by the grace of God.

[HFishbine]

73. But

an admitted member of the DLC -- maybe that has something to so with it.

[WyLoochka]

53. DFA efforts are focused on

supporting local Democratic candidates. It is absolutely essential that someone, somewhere step up and do just that - get attention and drum up support for Democrats who are running for offices other than President.

Get a clue, Kerry/Edwards can not turn the tide by themselves. The Democrats need to do a whole hell of a lot of work to rectify the extreme damage done by their wimped out laziness over the past quarter century. We need to get Democrats into elected office all across the land, from school boards, municipal and county governments, state legislatures and gubernatorial seats to federal House and Senate seats. That is preceisely what DFA is trying to help get done.

Just what is your purpose in bashing this much overdue effort, ftbg?

[mandyky]

39. Do you have a URL?

I can't find a link to forums. I am a member of DFA, and I have no idea what you are talking about.

[freetobegay]

41. Sorry you are having trouble finding it.

Heres a direct link.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/forums/

[mandyky]

43. Thanks, if you can provide a gew snips

of "troubling posts" from there, I'd love to see them. I will look thru the forums.

One thing I will say about DFA -

I think many members still don't like Kerry as a candidate. While I'll vote for him, I am not sure I will actually support him. I DO hope he wins, because the US cannot afford 4 more years of W. What DFA intends on doing is growing the Democratic party and getting local, state, and Congressional progressive candidates elected. If/when Kerry wins, he'll need a Democratic House and / or Senate to undo what W has done.

[freetobegay]

44. Your welcome

I would also like to add you are someone i could carry on a reasonable conversation with. I have issues with Kerry also, but I have stated time & time again my criticism will cease until after he is elected. If he's not elected where does that leave us? WHy do people have a hard time understanding that?

[mandyky]

45. Most DFA members are as reasonable as I am

I think your original post was a bit accusatory, and that sets off hard feelings. I have been biting my fingers and tongue, and do not plan on saying anything really damaging about Kerry until after the elections. You are right, we have to send W back to TX. Shrub deserves jail time, but I'll settle for retiring him to the ranch...

[HFishbine]

74. According to Mr. tobegay

You shouldn't vote for Kerry with that rationale.

[arcos]

46. You should know better...

Online forums ARE NOT a good way to measure an organization... not DU, not DFA.

Suggesting that Democracy for America wants Kerry to lose because of what a few members post on their forum is just RIDICULOUS.

(and NO, I'm not a member of DFA, I'm not even American)

[bklyncowgirl]

50. Give it a rest

I think your post is nothing but divisive tripe. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that Howard Dean is supporting John Kerry? Perhaps you are waiting for that magic moment when Dean blows up at something, bolts the party and joins arm in arm with Ralph Nader (a man he pummeled in a debate on Kerry's behalf) to begin his true mission of destroying the Democratic Party.

I imagine you'll have to wait awhile.

I hadn't been over to the DFA forum for a while. There's not much going on there, IMHO. The DFA blog is a different story--that's still quite active--but since we're talking about the forum, here's what I saw.

There are relatively few posters on the forum. Most of these are supporting Kerry. There are a few people who haven't quite gotten over Dean's loss and are still bitter at John Kerry. These people (I don't think there are more than 10 of them) also don't appear to have much of a life because they're on there all the time and have multiple posts. The moderator is solidly pro-Kerry but does allow people to post anti-Kerry sentiments--somewhat similar to the situation here.

As far as having no Kerry-Edwards banners, I didn't see any candidate banners on the site. DFA has endorsed Kerry, DFA has raised money for Kerry, I've seen Kerry banners on the site before plus links to donate to Kerry. If you have a problem with this take it up with their web designer.

I'm supporting John Kerry more enthusiastically than I've ever supported any other presidential candidate in my lifetime. I also like Howard Dean and admire the work he's doing with DFA. My advise to you is get a life.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Well said...

n/t

[Jim Sagle]

65. What you said.

:yourock:

[Brian_Expat]

51. Boy, someone has a divisive agenda. . .

. . . makes me wonder what your true agenda is. . .

[LarryBaker]

54. I am so tired of this bullshit

I don't want Kerry to lose. NOBODY wants Kerry to lose. But not wanting him to lose doesn't automatically transfer into love for the guy. He will be the worst Dem president in a looooong time, and from the moment he takes office I'll be coming at him from the left with all I've got. And if my state is safely in his column, I won't even vote for him, and if it's close, I'll have to hold my nose and try not to puke all over the booth while I do. But that STILL doesn't make me want him to lose. I am not DFA, but they're good people, and your post is bullshit. Ok? Bullshit. With the possible exception of closet-repug Zell Miller, nobody wants him to lose.

[NoPasaran]

55. I think this says all that needs to be said about the DFA Forum

Our users have posted a total of 1972 articles
We have 254 registered users
The newest registered user is grandma in calif
In total there are 4 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 4 Guests < Administrator > < Moderator >
Most users ever online was 17 on Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:06 am
Registered Users: None


I don't think that 254 users are necessarily representative of an organization that has thousands of members. Hell, even the "Progressive" Forum Whose Name We Dare Not Speak has lots more members (or did last time I was there).

I joined DFA on the day it was founded. I am also very active in the Kerry campaign. While I can't claim to speak for every single member of DFA in the country I can assure you that everyone I know locally is 100% about electing Kerry and giving Bush* that one-way ticket back to Crawford.

Thanks for posting s divisive flame-bait topic, by the way.

[arcos]

59. exactly! n/t

[mdmc]

57. I used to be part of DFA

but lost interest after the primary. The tripe at DU is here because DU is here.

I think my fellow people that powered Howard want Bush out just as much as the Kucinich supporters do.

And what do you want to see happen to Kerry? How does your thread here support Kerry?

:hi:

[mdmc]

61. How does this thread support Kerry?

:hi:

I think this thread weakens Kerry in two ways:
1] It suggests that Kerry supporters should fear DFA.
2] It suggests that the Democrats are not united behind Kerry.

So what was your purpose? Why did you post your observation?

[HFishbine]

60. "Now this is only my opinion..."

And opinions can certainly be wrong.

[mdmc]

62. and the DFA threads are all just opinions too

so why post here? Why deflate Kerry (and DFA) here?

[dave29]

63. Sweeping generalizations

are so fun in the morning.

There is plenty of tripe posted by just about any political position you can imagine on this and other discussion boards. It comes with the territory.

Now is not the time to pick fights... we have work to do before and after Nov 2nd.

[mdmc]

64. tripe

You want Kerry to lose, ftbg