Dean proved that by saying what you please, you'll win every time!

[trumad]

I can't wait for his speech on Thursday night as he accepts the Nomination to represent the Democratic Party for the upcoming Presidential election.

Go get em Howard!

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. Moron,

That was very sincere. :evilgrin:

[Liberal Veteran]

2. I'll be standing over here with a fire extinguisher....

LOL

[salin]

4. I was trying to wrestle away the fire accelerant

but some big ohio state football player went for the tackle of the miami supporter and the whole conflagration seems to be inevitable... :shrug:

[trumad]

10. It wasn't Clarett was it?

....

[salin]

12. or perhaps in this case... "Claret"

;-)

[trumad]

15. No..he's an Ohio State student

so he misspells his name wrong...;-)

[Ohio Dem]

16. Only after the interception ploy.

You remember. It's the oldest trick in the book. In order to burn some clock, the offense throws an interception in the endzone. Then, A running back takes the ball back away from the intercepter. Viola, a new set of downs.

What's up, trumad?

[trumad]

17. Hey OD

Getting over the Ricky Williams fiasco, thats all....

[Ohio Dem]

18. Yeah. That one took me by surprise.

Retired? What is he, 25?

[Catch22Dem]

34. 27

Amazing isn't it. 5 seasons and out.

[Renew Deal]

61. lol

I've got my flame retardent suit. :nuke:

[Rowdyboy]

3. 5....4....3...2...1........

[CatWoman]

8. Rowdy!!!!

:hi:

looks like Tru is trying to steal your name :D

[Rowdyboy]

60. Stirring up shit is SOOOOOO much fun!

:hi:

[CatWoman]

5. Who loves ya, Baby?

:D

[trumad]

6. .

;-)

[jpgray]

7. Here we go

Now people will come in and say 'those who pander to the centrist corporate duopoly sabotaged him', and they're right. But so are those who say his campaign rhetoric left him uniquely vulnerable. The media also sabotaged him, because his rhetoric was hardly establishment friendly. So I don't know what I can conclude, except that several sides of this story have a valid point.

[trumad]

9. jpgray

Good post... and you get it.

[JohnKleeb]

13. Ive actually heard he lost because he didnt really want to be president

He was quoted as saying to a reporter, there were three things I wanted to do, change the democratic party, change the country, and be president, the reporter asked in that order? to which he said yeah. That strikes me as odd because Dean really doesnt have a position to run for in the vermont government, I doubt he'd run for governor (can he run again), I doubt he's gonna run for senator unless he wants to run against Jim Jeffords who did endorse him and who does caucus with the dems, and I doubt he'd run against bernie sanders for the house because the house is a low profile positon and lots of dems up there love bernie, so maybe he'll get a job in the DNC or something like that. I think Kucinich by gaining public notice will use this election to run for higher office in a few years.

[madfloridian]

84. Ah, Trippi hits a homer.

That is Trippi's voice saying that. No one was present apparently but Joe and Dean, Dean says he did not say that....Trippi is talking out of his ear.

He should have been running the campaign, answering Dean's calls, and going to Iowa when he was needed.

As for Dean, he has a role anyway in the party. He will probably run again in the future, as he is building a pretty solid base.

[JohnKleeb]

85. he was quoted as saying in it

"In the beginning, I said the three things I wanted to do are change the Democratic Party, change the country, and become president of the United States," Dean told U.S. News
I dont have a link because I read it in a magazine at work, are you gonna tell me Trippi dressed up as Dean and told that magazine that. Its the one that tells what happened in Iowa. Has Kerry on the front.
our friend the link, http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040719/usnews/19point.1_3.htm

[madfloridian]

101. No, Dean said the 3 things in various orders.

Trippi is the one who said Dean said he did not want to be president. Dean denies it, no one else was present, Trippi has a little agenda still, so take your pick.

[JohnKleeb]

102. I mean Dean meant being president wasnt a high priority

sorry for the confusion.
Well if Trippi is misrepresenting Dean, you have your reason why Dean didnt win the primaries, Kerry shaped up his team after realizing that Jim Jordan was a cruddy campaign manager and hired Mary Beth Cahill who helped out big time.

[kiahzero]

103. Clearly, the DLC must have installed Trippi as CM

Either that, or Gephardt.

[JohnKleeb]

104. the evil Gepster youre joking

You know whats an interesting side note, Trippi was Gep's CM and Dean was a Gep backer in '88. http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=VT&last=Dean&first=Howard

[freetobegay]

11. Apparently I have have been left out of the loop on something

Maybe it's from that attack I received last night.

on edit spelling.

[salonghorn70]

14. I'm Willing To Lay Off Dean

I am sure no Dean fan. But I'm willing to lay off. He's done a great job in fund raising for Kerry and did all of us a big favor by taking on Nadar. Now if all of you Dean people will just lay off DLC Democrats like me and try to realize that we are all in this party together.:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. We are all in this together. I'm not sure what is happening to our

party lately. It's really quite sad. :(

[w13rd0]

56. Many DLC Democrats supported Dean...

...it's not the leadership of the DLC, and their tactics, at this time, that we have an issue with.

[madfloridian]

63. It is the DLC leadership I have issues with.

Like Al From, Bruce Reed, and their fellow officemate, Will Marshall of the PPI.

[madfloridian]

64. There is an elephant in the living room.

That is the problem. It is the war that no one is talking about anymore. If you ignore it, it just messes up your living room more. That elephant has to be dealt with.

[nomaco-10]

19. What purpose does your post serve other than to.....

insult and ridicule a fine man and a great dem candidate.

Dean must have really struck a nerve with some of you people. Could it be that somewhere buried deep in your consciousness, it's driving you crazy to be supporting a candidate that supports this bullshit war for oil, voted for the Patriot Act, DOMA and No Child Left Behind. I'd be trying to block it out too.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Kerry voted for DOMA?

thats not true.

[mitchum]

87. You're right, John

It's not true at all

[JohnKleeb]

88. it took courage to vote against that damn thing

I'll say it, John Kerry is the best nominee this party has had of my life time that includes Michael Dukakis, Bill Cliinton, and Al Gore.

[mitchum]

89. You're right about that also

:)

[JohnKleeb]

90. hah thanks

I really like the guy a lot, maybe some here dont like him because of some of his votes but reading about him really is inspiriational, I read how he reacted to his friend Pershing's death while he was in Vietnam and how around that same time his hero Bobby Kennedy had died, really showed how big of a heart he has. Sorry to thread jack but Kerry has me in awe often.

[Kahuna]

22. You totally missed the point. The point isn't to deride Dean...

It's to point out that if strong anti-* rhetoric was the prescription for success, Dean would be accepting the nomination instead of Kerry. And that a candidate can be strong while still being dignified.

[TeacherCreature]

36. Oh you mean like Clark?

So dignified he was the 2nd to drop out?

[madfloridian]

39. Then all those huge crowds were our imagination?

Until Iowa? And our granddaughter hearing Dean and his wife performed abortions? And that he was not mentally stable? All this before the "scream."

This is just baloney.

[Kahuna]

105. "Crowds?" "Crowds" only mean that you attract they type of ..

supporters who like large crowds. :shrug: For all those crowds Dean only won his homestate. Nader had large crowds in 2000 and only managed to get 2% of the votes. Crowds do not translate very well into votes as Dean and Nader can testify.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Dean was dignity personified. He was the man who finally stood

up and spoke for my children. He was a man taken down by a frightened media and persons in a party too afraid to break from traditional insider politics. :hi:

[madfloridian]

58. "Taken down by frightened media" and by those afraid break out.

The media and the DLC mostly.

I get furious when he is made fun of for being passionate in his beliefs.

[havocmom]

24. Perhaps the point was that a gentleman from Illinois should not

be raked over coals for not being extremely hostile to bush* in the public arena? Holding Dean up as an example that being really rowdy is not the best tactic when dealing with all sorts of people.

And, yes, I am a Dean supporter. But he lost his cool and was nailed for it. No point in candidates for the Senate having the same thing happen to them. We NEED to take the Senate!

[Cha]

37. When did Dean "lose his cool"?

Not imv, he did not! That's just silly!

[havocmom]

62. I agree with you, but somebody wanted him out and so the press played

up his righteous indignation to be evidence that he did not have the temperament to be president and he slid down the tube.

Seems there are a lot of people screaming that Obama was not nasty enough about bush*. So what we end up with is a lose lose situation. If someone is strong and blunt, they get pummeled and if someone is more diplomatic, they get pummeled by a different group. I believe that was the point of the original point.

[maggrwaggr]

97. boy did you ever misunderstand

I don't think anyone suggested he should be "openly hostile" to Bush.

All that was suggested was that he MENTION the fact that Bush lied.

Doesn't seem like a lot to ask.

"Well, we all know now that the president lied about his reasons for wanting to go to Iraq".

That can be said gently, matter-of-factly, and quietly.

"The president should take responsibility for this foreign policy blunder and quit trying to blame others. The CIA didn't press for the war, he did".

That can also be said very gently and very matter-of-factly.

I wouldn't consider a statement such as either of those to be "openly hostile".

[Kahuna]

20. Tsk tsk tsk...

Somebody had to say it. :evilgrin:

[Cha]

23. Dean said what he believed in ...that's why I supported

him.. and I think Dean is speaking Tuesday night at the Convention because he was asked to. Those people realize how important he is to the Democratic Party.

[maxanne]

25. nice

Lucky for all of you that Dean decided to help Kerry. He's raised a lot of money, and brought many of his supporters to the Kerry table. Kerry wouldn't be doing nearly so well on his unexciting and leaning to the right wing own.

This is no different from freepers attacking Clinton. Congratulations.

[freetobegay]

26. & I suppose a Dean supporter never atacked Kerry?

:eyes:

[maxanne]

35. and that makes this

all okay?

I got raped once, so I guess it's okay if I go out and kill all men?

[emulatorloo]

27. Um, trumad is not attacking dean, he is answering people who are so hard

on Obama for not unleashing a lot of negative rhetoric today.

I think we are all looking forward to Dean's speech.

OTOH you are attacking Kerry. Kerry is not "right wing" and I do not care if our President is "unexciting." George Bush is "exciting." I would settle for SANE!!!!!!

[madfloridian]

47. Bush is being given a free ride while our soldiers are dying.

The media has forgotten them. They hardly mention the war at all. To have the whole Kerry crew today practically praising Bush was a little much.

Attacking Dean and his supporters is a wonderful way to get support for Kerry, don't you think?

[emulatorloo]

73. I disagree w your assertion that "Kerry Crew" is "praising Bush."

Check this post from mellowinman (who just watched it) re Obama on MTP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2064475

"Obama SAVAGED Bush."




PS I love Howard Dean and have never "attacked" him.


ON Edit add link to mellowinman post

[w13rd0]

59. Oh, is this about Obama?

Obama, on policy issues, falls left of Dean on the spectrum. I think the "uproar" over his statements on MTP are much ado about nothing. Seriously, who the hell HASN'T found something to dislike about something anyone said on MTP, that's Tim "I'm Dick Cheney's Boy-Toy" Russert specializes in.

[Cha]

28. Dean has been a lot of help and I'm sure he will be a lot

more help and he deserves to be thanked not derided because he was bringing a lot of People into the voting process who hadn't been involved before.

Dean got People's attention and that was a good thing.

[madfloridian]

29. What a shame.

Do you feel better now, Trumad?

[depakid]

30. At least the waffling label wouldn't stick to Dean

It remains to be seen whether Kerry will be able to shed it or not-

[madfloridian]

31. You are implying that he lost because he spoke out. Iowa chose our nominee

Or because he screamed. There are varying schools of thought on that. He accomplished a lot even though he lost the nomination. He is still accomplishing a lot.

He lost because the DLC could not tolerate the arrogance of him and his supporters collecting all that money and the huge support.

It all converged in Iowa.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. How I wish what you said were true.

Otherwise, all I have to say is that's being cruel to a bunch of good people. Very sad.

[Straight Shooter]

33. Howard Dean wasn't "saying what he pleased"

That's bush.

And, for the record, Howard Dean was right in his assertions. Furthermore, for the record, I agree that Dean would never be stuck with a "flip-flop" or "waffle" label. Angry? After awhile, that label wouldn't stick to him, he's simply too congenial a guy.

It's discouraging to see people mock Dean in order to make a point. Really makes me want to run right out and campaign for kerry :eyes:

[Cha]

38. Yeah, I know what you mean!

[madfloridian]

42. He had more courage than the others. Still does.

He puts himself out there everyday for Kerry. Kerry is looking for the swing votes, and now there is no one for those of us who opposed the war.

Dean had guts and courage. Kerry and Edwards are defending their war votes more strongly every time I hear them on TV. They are so sure now it was right.

No one is calling BS on Bush now, and that is breaking my heart. They even have Dean and Kicinich falling in line now.

The GOP has defined our playing field. They are winning without someone speaking out against Bush.

[never cry wolf]

49. Trumad wasn't mocking Dean

he was just pointing out that if you want to win, you gotta play in Peoria!

I have all the respect and admiration in the world for Dean. Even though Dennis may have been the first to call a bush* spade a spade, the good Doctor said it loud and made bush bashing fashionable. He changed the landscape and started the snowball rolling and for that we are all forever indebted to him.

However, he also fell on the grenade. He aroused the base, but in turn alienated many of the middle of the roaders. He preached to OUR choir, and added many members, but lost the congregation of uneducated masses. Edwards did better by going non-negative, it works. Kerry, and Obama, will need those masses.

I sincerelt hope that Dean will play a prominent role in the party for many years, maybe in the admin, maybe as chair of the DNC, we need his enthusiasm, frankness and vitriol. I think Kerry will recognize this and act appropriately. I also think that Dean can help out most by being the surrogate, saying what a national nominee can't.

They are all ABB. Maybe in the past, petty inter-party squabbles and personal egos naturally played a large role. I sense, however, that for this election, everyone knows just how damn much is at stake and will be unified.

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. Dean was never allowed to play to Peoria...

I'll never buy it, and I'm only sorry that so many have. And yes, trumad was mocking Dean, anyway one tries to spin it.

[madfloridian]

53. Yes, he was mocking Dean and us!

One small state chose our nominee. I guess I have said that so much that people really don't want to hear it. I could search out the articles on the primary. I could search out the things that happened in Iowa.

Dean was not a perfect candidate, but people related until Iowa. Perhaps they believed he performed abortions. Wonder why?

I never got a chance to vote for him. None of Florida did, nor did CA, nor did NY, and many other states did not.

Iowa chose our nominee. We never got a chance.

[Rose Siding]

55. Have you seen the speech re-writes?

snip>
One speaker submitted a text that accused Bush of "failing to fund No Child Left Behind," his education initiative. The line was softened by the speechwriting staff to say, "We can do better. We need to fund No Child Left Behind."

A congressman's claim that Bush has "deceived Americans" about Iraq (news - web sites) was watered down in a revised draft to promise that Kerry will never go to war without ample reason.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040725/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_vetting_speeches&cid=536&ncid=536

What tight ass thinks that those changes make the difference between success and failure? Talk about "petty inter-party squabbles".

[emulatorloo]

71. so now RON FOURNIER of the AP is to be taken at face value?

What happened to our healthy skepticism of the AP?!?!?!

[maggrwaggr]

98. Yeah, I'm not sure I've ever been so dissilusioned with fellow Dems

as I am today.

Re: the Obama threads (two of which were started by me, and later locked for those who missed them)

I was called "insane", "hysterical", "racist", a "gop plant" among other things.

All for suggesting our "bright rising star" in the Dem party might actually want to be something less than mushy-mouthed and timid in his approach to the current administration.

[TeacherCreature]

40. It is really too bad that he is not the nominee

and every post like this makes it harder to support Kerry. If this is the kind of thinking we are going to be subject to perhaps the Naderbots are right. Maybe another 4 years of bush would teach the party to stop shitting on the base.

[madfloridian]

45. That is just how I feel today. Like I just don't care.

Our local paper had a lie as its lead article. It started the day off wrong, and it just got worse as I tried to listen to the Sunday shows. Everyone was talking about good Bush was, how he just had bad intelligence.

It does make it harder to be resolute.

[Cha]

52. I spent the day on c-span listening to the run up to

to Convention and it was great! I came away very energized and proud of what they are doing there in Boston.

The Fleet Sports Center has been totally revamped for the Convention and Rod O'Connor who is the Convention CEO is brilliant in what he has done to the stage..please go to his site and check it out.

http://www.dems2004.org/site/pp.asp?c=luI2LaPYG&b=92976

[NYCGirl]

41. If it wasn't for Dr. Dean making it OK to speak out...

and taking the arrows for doing so, we'd probably be here trying to drum up some enthusiasm for our nominee, the original primary front-runner, Joe Lieberman.

I realize you're trying to make some kind of a point here, but it's sure a crappy way to do so.

[TeacherCreature]

48. If Dean was so wrong why did Kerry start giving his stump speech?

I agree that TMad made his point very poorly.

[madfloridian]

51. Dean is waiting to hear that "even Costa Ricans have health care."

Then he says he will know that they have taken all of his message.

The only time they are not sounding like him is when they say Bush did not "lie." By whatever words they choose.

Soldiers are dying because of Bush, and Iraqis are suffering. He needs to be criticized.

[lastknowngood]

46. If this isn't a call out I have never seen one mods please deleate

this crap.

[maggrwaggr]

92. yeah no kidding.

As someone who started two threads that were locked today, I'm very surprised this one has survived at all.

[Pastiche423]

54. Ah, the sweet smell of unity spreading

It smells like shit to me.

It's a good thing kerry is so far ahead in the polls, eh?

[NYCGirl]

57. If our party keeps taking "the base" for granted,

because we have no where else to go, someday we might not be there at all.

No wonder 50% of Americans never vote.

[stavka]

74. ...err, sorry "the base" doesn't exist.

Progressives, minorities, those that believe there may be social mobility without hurting other people....we ain't the base. We just have no other place to find shelter from the storm.

Anarchists, and "Moderate Republicans" are the next step right or left - I don't want either of those titles.

Kerry/Edwards!

[madfloridian]

76. Wrong, a progressive coalition is forming.

Even now. There are several events next week with some great folks combining forces. It is taking shape slowly, as groups like this do....with so many different views and ideas.

One is www.ourfuture.org

Check out the speakers at this link:
http://www.ourfuture.org/projects/dconrsvp.cfm

Another is found here:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0720-06.htm

Yes, there will be alternatives.

[BigJerr]

65. Yeah! Let's see how tough he is and Rove and the Boys.

You guys are so smart aren't you. Go talk to the Republicans that way. Oh I forgot he voted with them! How does Kerry stand on Iraq? With all his antiwar history why did vote with Bush on Iraq? Why is he denying his past when he spoke in front of congress about Vietnam? I have had it with the spineless Democrats! Though I am voting for Kerry I could care less what happens after Nov. 2. I find it incredible that the Kerry supporters are still coming down on Dean! We are not going to be disrespected in this party! Also let's put it this way, all the other campaigns imploded! LIEberman's, Clark's. Why hasn't anyone called for Kucinich to get out of his campaign for so-called unity? Why is the Kerry telling their supporters to play nice and stop the Bush bashing! Well, it seems that Kerry is just another spineless Democrat.

After Nov. 2 I am resigning from the party!

[Straight Shooter]

68. Wow! Welcome to DU

:hi:

Hey, BigJerr, it sounds like you care a LOT! Please don't drop out after November 2. We need roaring tigers like you to make that donkey kick!

[BigJerr]

69. THANKS! The Dean bashing

has to stop! I have a message. They better treat us real nice. We can be very dangerous after the election. The supporters of 'Lurch' have no idea how quickly this so-called unity is going to disappear. We are going to let the media and the Republicans walk all over the Democrats. Just like what the they did to us in the primaries. Then give the Kerry campaign all the same reasons they gave us when the media was doing a number on Dean. The Kerry Campaign really thought none of it was going to touch them! Everything was ok as long as they believed it wasn't against them! Keep your friends close, keep people like us even closer.

[emulatorloo]

72. Why don't you see how he is as President before you vow to destroy him?

and why are you blaming the Kerry campaign for some anonymous person's post on an internet message board?

I understand Kerry and Dean have become good friends. . . .I know I appreciate all the campaigning Dean is doing.

[JohnKleeb]

75. Ive heard that too

Kerry's campaign is actually reaching out to the progressive wing of the party, look at our speakers list for christ sakes and I think the Kerry campaign especially John himself know what its like to be ridiculed in the media, remember when Dean had the lead, the media was prouncing Kerry dead, Kerry knows what its like, hes not a mean spirited man. I think the only major difference between Dean and Kerry is tone and persona.

[BigJerr]

78. I'll remind you.

(1) If it were the reverse and Dean was being nominated would you be a gracious?
(2) Why hasn't Kerry come out against the war?
(3) Why haven't you responded to the insulting remarks of the original poster instead of a asking me "why are you blaming the Kerry campaign for some anonymous person's post on an internet message board? " That person is a represents the Kerry Campaign. Do not take us for granted! Why is the Kerry campaign not stoppping those kinds of comments towards supporters from other campaigns? Do not take us for granted! Again, why don't you ask the Republicans wht thet are so aggressive? Too scared too?

[emulatorloo]

83. Here are your answers

1) I would marching down the street with Howard Dean shouting out how happy I was, getting people to vote for him, and talking about what a great President he would make.

2) He is walking a tightrope, but he has again and again spoken out against Bush's mad rush to war. You will hear more about it in the coming months.

3) I do not think Trumad's intention was to insult Dean or Dean supporters. That is my opinion. But Trumad, the individual, is responsible for his/her posts, not the Kerry Campaign.

No I do not like repuglicans.

Kerry and Dean are on board together, I am on board w Kerry and Dean.

BTW, Welcome To DU!!!!!!!!! :toast: :hi:

[Straight Shooter]

79. I'm going to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt

But I can only imagine how difficult it will be for him to gain the support that he needs in Congress (if it doesn't swing Dem) and amongst this nation when the overall impression will be that his being elected is due first and foremost to the fact he isn't bush.

Dean really lit a fire in his supporters, and, for many of us, that flame is going to burn forever.

[BigJerr]

80. I am too. But the Demos have to make good

on this unity issue. The poster was way out of line.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Capn Sunshine]

67. "The good news for us is that Dean is not the nominee" - Karl Rove

I guess you got the memo, huh Trumad?

[maggrwaggr]

99. Yup. Kinda says it all.

But the result is now that Dems are more TIMID THAN EVER.

Great.

Such fortitude!!

Such pride!!

[Q]

70. What Dean 'proved' is that...

...that truth isn't popular with either the Republican or Democratic parties.

[trumad]

77. I see some get my intentions with this thread and some don't..

Post 24 pretty much hits it on the head... And for anyone wondering... I think Howard Deans the best thing that's happened to this party in a long long time....

[Straight Shooter]

81. Then why didn't you just say so? Nothing about Obama in the original post

And we agree, Howard Dean is the best thing that's happened to this party in a long, long, really long, long time.

[trumad]

107. Because that would have been too easy....

And besides, I love knee-jerk reactions... I really do. The problem some of us have is that we don't think things through and we tend to jump on a bandwagon toward disaster.

[Kipepeo]

93. I didn't get it either then...

I didn't see anything in the original post about Obama, it just looked like an invitation to pile on Dean to me. If that wasn't the intention I misread it.

Dean is the only reason I am really into politics this go-round. After the theft of the 2000 election, the disappointing 2002 election, the majority of Dem. Senators supporting the IWR...I was getting pretty disillusioned. I was the only one of my friends to even vote in the 2002 elections, their response to me being "what's the difference?" I can understand that feeling of hopelessness but I'm not about to stop voting.

Dean made me excited about the political process again. His was the first campaign I got involved in, donated money to, wrote letters to undecided voters for...In the past my political involvement has been confined to just voting.

I get the impression that some people love to hate him but I don't understand why. :shrug: He made me excited about the Democratic party again.

[madfloridian]

82. You miss something important here.

Most of us truly do not have a serious gripe with Kerry, except for the biggest one. The one he and Edwards either are not addressing to be nice, or can not address because they approve. That is the war vote.

It is draining our country. It is draining us emotionally and economically.

Most of us will vote for Kerry, and I think a lot of people will be watching closely. But this is a turning point for the Democrats...yes it is. Call it one issue, ignore it, get mad at us.

My husband and I were really moderate Democrats until the war, and we still are in some ways. However, this is the war that will determine the way we go in the future. We either come home, or we go on to remap. It is about imperialism.

They have to speak up. People are confused. The papers and TV are not telling them the truth, yet many are convinced now that Bush lied. Kerry needs to address it. Seems to us he and Edwards are embracing their votes more strongly now.

I think that explains why so many get angry. It is draining our resources. Groups are banding together under the label of progressive, which is just as good as any other. They are growing rapidly, with Dean and Kucinich playing big roles.

Dean may not be considered progressive by some here at DU, but he is passionate for change. That makes him progressive. These are going to be growing in the next year, I believe.

[emulatorloo]

86. Did you read this interview w JKerry on 7/10/04 NYT?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/10/politics/campaign/11TEXT.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=2d8ad129e949c01c&ex=1090900800&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1090781157-Nm2yZ4lJpnMy/jJbrFLZRw

Q.Did he mislead you, did he mislead Congress, you, and the American people?

KERRY: Over a period of time, there were a number of misleading statements made by the president. He certainly misled America about nuclear involvement. And he misled America about the types of weapons that were there, and he misled America about how he would go about using the authority he was given. "Going to war as a last resort" means something to me. The president did not go to war as a last resort, period. Moreover it's the responsibility of a president, if you are going to go to war, having said we're going to do all that's necessary, to do all that's necessary. He didn't. Because he had no plan for winning the peace. It is utterly extraordinary the level of miscalculation of this administration, as to what they would find in Iraq and what was going to be necessary. They discarded their own professional military evaluations, from General Shinseki and others, they disrespected professional military careers, turned their backs on their own State Department's plans, and arrogantly believed. . . . And they were wrong. And soldiers lost their lives because they were wrong. And America's paying -billions of dollars because they were wrong, and allies are not with us because they were wrong. I think there is no greater responsibility of the president of the United States.

on edit add date and punctionation
 

[Straight Shooter]

91. What does it take to stop a train wreck in slow motion?

What if some of our illustrious senators had stood on the tracks and refused to budge, and said, "We know the history of bush, we know about the neocons, we will not rest until every stone is unturned in our search for the truth as to the necessity for a war in Iraq or any other war. The lives of our fellow Americans, our neighbors, our children, and the lives of innocent Iraqis are too precious to waste on hype and speculation and unsubstantiated rumors by those who have little to lose and much to gain."

Okay, so those senators might have been run over at the time. But now they would have the right to stand tall. Because the truth is that bush was never trustworthy, and every Democrat knew it. All the pretty speeches about who misled whom is a bit disingenuous. It was politically expedient to go along with what everyone else was going along with.

And that's why the world witnessed the train wreck in slow motion, otherwise known as the war in Iraq.

[madfloridian]

96. We here were protesting and being activist against the war.

We called the offices of the presidential candidates over and over. They were most definitely for this war. Edwards' office was most insistent that we had to do it. Hilary's office even had protesters kicked out. Kerry's office insisted it was a necessary thing.

We sent them info, we sent them research, they did not listen.

I want to know if we are staying after we have it "stable", and if he wants to go on with the remapping.

This is serious stuff here.

[emulatorloo]

100. Yes, we all want to know what they will do now. . .EOM

[maggrwaggr]

94. good post

I agree with you.

I think millions and millions of people know that Bush lied, Cheney lied, they all lied, even their hero Powell lied, and they're WAITING and HUNGERING for someone to step up and address it.

To admit it. To get it out on the table so we can actually talk about it.

How many times have i said this today ---- there's a reason F911 has made over 100 million dollars. It hit a nerve. Nobody in the Dem party wants to hit a nerve.

Sorry, but to me they all seem chickenshit.

[Selwynn]

95. Brutal, but with point

[Renew Deal]

106. This got unlocked?

Oh boy. Over under is set at 300. ;)