'I had an abortion' tees go on sale

[rawstory]

nobody seems to care about this in LBN, so here goes:

By John Byrne | Raw Story Editor

Planned Parenthood’s “I had an abortion” tee-shirts officially went on sale today, sparking ire from the conservative right. The shirts, which retail for $15, are billed as “soft and comfortable fitted tees assert a powerful message in support of women’s rights.”

The shirt says simply, “I had an abortion.”

Meanwhile, a conservative Canadian website, LifeSiteNews, is up in arms. The site issued a statement Friday in advance of the sales. It refers to Planned Parenthood as an “international abortion giant.” A conservative Canadian journalist for the Ottawa Citizen is quoted as saying, “I think it’s a great idea… In fact, I think they should adopt a whole range of slogans. How about, ‘I eat unborn babies for breakfast…Vote John Kerry.’ Now those would really sell.”

<snip>

LifeSiteNews takes a radical position on contraception.

“Contraception, in the form of the birth-control pill, is never able to prevent recourse to abortion because it is a form of abortion itself,” they assert. “Contraception, as a means to reduce abortion, is having dire consequences on our population, particularly our youth.”

http://www.rawstory.com

[Fovea]

1. I want one!

and I am a guy.

[AVID]

196. go here - i ordered one

http://store.yahoo.com/ppfastore/ihadabt.html

[meow2u3]

2. That's over the top!!

And tasteless, might I add.

Being pro-choice is one thing; actually bragging about having an abortion is beyond the pale.

We don't have to go to extremes to prove we support women's rights; besides, the abortion-as-women's-rights litmus test is offensive, especially to one whose own life was protected by a mom who refused to listen to her doctors and abort me (don't even imply I'm not a good liberal--that would be bigotry).

[jdj]

3. It does seem like a private matter, the poin being it is no one's

business but the woman's, so I find this weird.

[David__77]

20. It's the business of whoever the woman wants it to be the business of.

That's the real point. If a woman is not ashamed of her decision, then I see nothing wrong with this at all. The point of this is that many, many women have had abortions, and there should be no shame in it.

[jdj]

30. I have a couple of friends who have had them

and they have alot of anguish about it.

Asking someone to wear a t-shirt and make themselves the target of some wacko seems a little much.

I doubt I will ever see one of these shirts on anyone, but if I do, I'll post it here.

[Scout]

36. no one is trying to force women to out their abortion experience

but for women who choose to wear a shirt, there is nothing wrong with it ... it's not bragging, it's stating a fact.

many women don't have anguish over their abortions, many do ... so what? no one is trying to force women to wear the shirt.

and let's face it, we are ALL at risk from wacko's every day of our lives, some more than others. if a woman chooses to "assume the risk of wacko attacks" because she wears a t-shirt, that is her own damn business.

[K-W]

49. Alot of that anguish comes from the stigma

that these t-shirts are meant to destroy, dont you see that?

[politicat]

251. Exactly - if all 1 million who had an abortion in 2002 wore that

shirt on the same day ...

It would put a human face on a political issue.
It would show that each of us knows someone who had to make that decision.
It would show that deciding to have an abortion does not automatically make a woman evil.
It would show that abortion does not drive people crazy as the pro-birth people are always trying to say.
It would show that a woman can have an abortion and then go on to have a healthy, happy family life and wanted, loved children.
It would take the stigma and the secrecy and the shame out of the decision.
It would show that women have to make hard, hard choices sometimes.

You don't have to wear one, and you don't have to like them, but they're not bragging.

They're stating a hard truth.

Pcat

[TeacherCreature]

58. oh please

I am so sick of people's sad stories being used to judge women. No one is ASKING anyone to do anything.

[David__77]

72. No one is asking them to wear a shirt.

The shirt is for someone who does not feel that way. I have friends who have had abortions that are not at all remorseful. I see nothing wrong with that. I am sorry that there are tragic circumstances surrounding many abortions--often women have complications that lead to terminating a pregnancy, for instance. No one is invalidating the pain many women may have about their choice. But the point is that there's nothing shameful about having an abortion.

[DianeG5385]

217. I'm sorry you so minimize the effect on Women of their choice

It's not done cavalierly. T-shirt seems to make the DIFFICULT choice meaningless.

[K-W]

223. The t-shirt does nothing of the sort

Please stop spinning this like a fundementalist christian.

[DianeG5385]

230. You seem to think CARING about choice as some sort

of fundamentalist twist. That's why Dems lose the middle vote. Most people feel like me, it is a terrible choice, but one that must be available. The T-shirt sucks and that's my view!

[TeacherCreature]

55. well then don't wear one

jeesh

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. Many Americans have an ambiguous stance on abortion

They feel that abortion is wrong, but they also feel that it is the woman's choice and should be illegal.

[gpandas]

40. such a simple statement that says it all...

i have yet to meet an american who is FOR abortion.

[Mara Steele]

65. I'm an American who is FOR abortion

I'm an American who is FOR abortion, and I believe there are many folks like me where I come from.

At this point in time, in this society that we live in, for women to have the option of abortion is terribly important for us all. There are many women who I think should be encouraged to exercise that choice, if the unfortunate need should so arise in their lives.

For teenage mothers who want a future, for poor mothers who can't provide for their kids, and drug-addicted mothers whose children will have terrible health problems, abortion is the only humane option both for them and for their unborn fetuses.

It is also smart for society, since less neglected, undernourished, drug-addicted kids means less ill and homeless people for the state to take care of, and presumably less crime in the cities.

It's very simple actually; and for these reasons, I am definitely FOR abortion.

[qwlauren35]

142. I am VERY PRO-ABORTION.

We just haven't met. ;-)

When I see countless children born in America to parents who don't want them, especially children of COLOR who aren't immediately adopted to the tune of $20-50,000, I find myself asking the question - WHY BRING THEM INTO THE WORLD???????

Now, I think if I were white, lots of people would talk about Margaret Sanger, and genocide, etc. But I'm not. I'm looking at what I consider a community DISASTER - unloved, unwanted children growing up in a society that has no resources to provide for them, then something must be done.

I think a society that uses moral brainwashing to convince a 8-14 year old that she would be a murderer if she aborted the life within her is a sick society. I think a society that allows/ENCOURAGES women to use babies to blackmail men is a sick society.

There are simply some cases where I think abortion is the RIGHT thing to do. And if the female chooses not to, I personally think she's making a mistake. That's why I say "pro-abortion".

Now, if we lived in a society in which there were NO FOSTER HOMES, and EVERY child OF EVERY RACE could be placed in a loving home, then I'd probably change my position. But that's not the society we live in.

I actually think the pro-life movement, in some respects, is important because SOME OF THEM are working to improve adoption laws to favor families who want a child but may not meet some legislated bureaucratic ruling on what is a "fit" family. A parent who committed a felony 20 years ago is not necessarily an unfit parent. A parent who makes less than $25K is not necessarily an unfit parent.

So, I'm not crazy. I just have strong views. I want to see every child that's born have the opportunity to enjoy a home filled with love, even if it's only for a few moments before life's madness kicks in. (Yes, parents die, children become orphans, the world isn't perfect...)

But at least now you have conversed with someone who is pro-abortion.

[lapislzi]

153. Very eloquently stated

You are right. Sometimes abortion is the best option in a hopeless situation.

Fix the situation; make the remedy redundant.

[gpandas]

161. please see response to similar post above. n/t

[Taverner]

191. I agree, Pro-Abortion here too

Too many unwanted children today....

[gpandas]

157. we have differing meanings of "for abortion".

nowhere in any posts i have made at du, or anywhere in my life, have i been anything but pro-choice. to me, the right to privacy is the most sorely abused right of them all. anyway, what i mean by "for abortion" is that one is not saddened by the life lost, no matter how compelling the reasons of the woman involved, who is making HER CHOICE.

[politicat]

253. Sorry we haven't met.

I am in favor of abortion in many different scenarios:

When the child cannot survive without extraordinary help (i.e. Anencephaly, Crie du Chat, others) and would have no chance of a conscious life.
When a fertility-drug pregnancy results in 8 or more babies and reduction is necessary so they won't all end up unable to care for themselves.
When the woman makes the decision that she can't care for a baby at that point in her life.
When the pregnant woman is in fact a pregnant child.
When the pregnant woman is in fact not competent to care for herself (i.e. mental retardation)
When other circumstances come together such that bringing the child to full term would result in a life that is significantly and materially impossible to maintain and improve for mother and child AND the mother chooses to abort.

I will say that I do not believe in forced abortions if the pregnant woman is capable of making an informed and reasoned decision. (I don't think 11 year olds and the profoundly retarded are capable of making an informed and reasoned decision about the rest of their lives. And no, I'm not equating an 11 year old with a profoundly handicapped person....)

There are good reasons for abortion, and sometimes it's the only decision that can be made.

Politicat

[DrWeird]

9. Who said anything about "bragging"?

Jeez, what is this, the taliban?

[UdoKier]

23. It is bragging.

Putting something on a tee is a way of advertising something you like or think is cool. "I went to the Grand Canyon" "Led Zeppelin" whatever. It's like saying "I had an abortion, and it was no more profound for me than throwing out the trash, and I'm proud of it"

Fortunately, I seriously doubt that many women who have chosen to abort would wear such a crass shirt. You don't have to be proud of something to NOT be ashamed of it.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UdoKier]

33. Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

Thanks for your intellectual honesty.

[lapislzi]

59. I think you're assuming a lot there

Wearing the t-shirt does not necessarily imply that your decision to have an abortion was taken cavalierly.

I take my politics very seriously AND I wear them on my t-shirt. I'm saying, "I think this issue is serious enough to put on a t-shirt."

Wearing the t-shirt is an admission of an act, no more, no less.

[TeacherCreature]

61. none of your business

1) you are wrong

2)I don't really give a damn since you are a man and you can't possibly understand the whole issue.

[K-W]

64. Lets not turn this into man bashing.

Obviously no man will ever face this situation, so men must defer to women to find out what the stakes really are.

But dont question my ability to understand simply because of my gender. There are plenty of women in the world who will never understand and perhaps a handful of men who do.

[TeacherCreature]

71. Get real

You can't understand anymore than I can understand what it is like to have a prostate exam. To be real has NOTHING to do with man bashing.

[K-W]

78. Thats rediculous.

Dont tell me what I can and can't understand. I dont have to be poor to understand the terrible realities of poverty. I dont have to be insane to understand the difficulties faced by the mentally ill in our society.

Your standard here is ludacris. I would never claim that I know what it is like to have an abortion or to be a women, but I can certainly claim that I understand to the best of my ability the issues therein. I understand alot better than a large portion of women who choose to ignore or are never confronted by these issues.

[TeacherCreature]

86. You may understand to a point

But you can not fully understand. We are in agreement.
In addition, if I were man bashing you would know it. Stating a fact is not bashing. Your pompass post to me pissed me off. Don't presume to tell me how I can address and issue and do not mischaracterize my words.
And no you can not understand fully conditions you have not lived through. You certainly can't understand pregnancy and all that it entails in a woman's life.

[UdoKier]

91. And yet...

You could concievably get to vote on the legality of prostate exams. You're berating a man who fully supports abortion rights, but not in the way you prefer. Why would you want to drive away support from your side because it comes from a man, or because it's not "understanding" enough?

[UdoKier]

89. If it's none of my business- then why are you advertising it on a t-shirt?

1) I'm wrong on what point?

2) I believe that I do understand the issue very well. I've raised two kids and have a wife who feels exactly the same about these things - in fact she's influenced my thinking on the matter a great deal. And even if I DIDN'T understand the issue "because I'm a man" I would still have a say in it via our democracy, just as YOU have a say on "men's issues" that YOU don't understand via the ballot box and your freedom of expression.

[sangh0]

99. Because it's not advertising

Calling "advertising" is just propoganda. Nothing is being sold here.

I guess the woman relatives of despreracidos were "proud" that their loved one's had been taken and tortured by their government, and so they were "advertising" their proud by carrying pictures of their loved ones.

[Fescue4u]

187. Except a shirt of course

"Nothing is being sold here."

Unless of course the shirts are free.

[noiretextatique]

98. so...you know what motivates everyone to wear a particular tee shirt?

you should be making money from that talent.

[politicat]

258. that's not the intent.

Remember, Abortion is silent. It's not like we go home from the clinic and we get a big red dot on our noses for a couple weeks that lets people know that we were and no longer are pregnant.

It's silent. No one knows - you take off work on Friday, rest over the weekend, are back at work on Monday and no one knows.

Having an abortion is kind of like being an atheist, and I should know - both situations apply to me.

When you're an atheist, there are certain situations you face regularly because being atheist is invisible. (And I'm using "Everyone" in the sense that when the subject comes up with strangers, the 99.99% of the time presumptions that happen are below. Sure, there are people who behave better. Few of them live in Colorado or Arizona.)
- Everyone presumes you're Christian because that's the dominant belief system.
- Everyone presumes that it's okay to pray for me because to everyone else, it's a nice gesture (for me, it's very scary since laying on of hands/exorcism and such formed a significant part of my childhood exposure to religion).
- Everyone assumes you've never contemplated a world without God.
- Everyone presumes that, even if you don't go to church, you read the bible and talk to god.
- Everyone presumes that even if you don't go to church, and don't read the bible, you still believe in Jesus and want to be saved.
- Everyone presumes that you want to believe.
- Everyone presumes that religion is a positive force.

When you've had an abortion - or even a miscarriage, or accepted infertility - you get a similar set of preconceived notions.
- Everyone presumes that you have not had an abortion.
- Everyone presumes that you have never been pregnant.
- Everyone presumes if you don't have kids, you really really want them and are trying to get pregnant every month.
- Everyone assumes that you're "pro-choice for other people and pro-life for yourself" (gag me with a wooden spoon, okay??)
- Everyone presumes that "if it was your daughter/sister you were talking about, you'd feel differently." (No... and you think that because???)
- Everyone presumes that abortion is a really easy choice for women to make. (It's not.)
- Everyone presumes that the only women who get abortions are tramps, sluts, hussies and idiots who didn't know better than to keep their legs crossed.

If we who have had to have an abortion would be public about it, then maybe cases like my sister's friend wouldn't happen - where she didn't want a child, didn't want to be pregnant, but was afraid that everyone around her would think badly of her if she had an abortion... and ended up giving her child up for adoption when the baby was two months old because she couldn't be a mother.... and the fact was, that actually, half of her friends had had either abortions or morning after pill close calls.

Politicat (Who will wear the shirt so that hopefully, no other 20 year old girls with a broken condom don't feel like they're the only one in the world....)

[Fescue4u]

186. Sounds like bragging to me

I mean, you ARE wearing this on your sleeve, literally.

[Warpy]

43. Antiabortion laws in France were finally overturned

during a particularly infamous case regarding a teenager who had an illegal abortion and was charged with the "crime." Thousands of women who had abortions in and outside France showed up to protest. Having these women from all classes and all walks of life testify to the fact that the stupid laws had never stopped the procedure was one thing that got rid of the stupid laws.

If you think it's tacky, then don't join in. However, seeing that women who needed abortion aren't all witless or careless ghetto types and teenagers may change a few minds about who these "other" women really are. I'll applaud their courage.

[TexasSissy]

44. I agree. It's a sad thing, tho some view it as necessary. But nothing to

brag about or be proud of. I can see what they're trying to do....bring abortion out of the closet. But it's a stressful and sad situation that culminates in the decision to abort.

[TeacherCreature]

54. speak for youself

Your emotional reaction to your own story is not a reason for you to try and control women's right to chose.

[DianeG5385]

220. Women are free to choose

Just stop trying to minimize the fact that many women feel anguish. You seem to think of the life lost as nothing. I disagree. There is a cost to every choice. Some of you want the choice but don't like to pay the price. The callousness of some is shocking. I made the choice when I was verry young but I never got over it. Don't minimize my GRIEF because of your political callousness!! You probably never had to deal w/ the reality!

[qwlauren35]

131. When I tell people,

I've had abortions, I'm not bragging. Just stating a fact.

People have a certain image of which women have abortions. Maybe I fit, maybe I don't. But I think it's important to attach faces to the statistics.

I'm a fairly responsible adult. I work, I give to charities (not just liberal ones!) I do a lot of work with children. However, I will absolutely admit that I am severely challenged when it comes to taking care of my own health. I can take care of anyone and anything... except myself. I'm just deficient that way. So, as a result of not taking care of myself, I got pregnant. Twice. And did not think I would be a good mother at that point in my life, and thought that bringing an unwanted African-American baby into the world was the height of irresponsibility, and so, both times, I had abortions.

I don't HATE children, I don't HATE babies, I don't have any confusion about when life begins (at conception, duh.)

Would I wear the shirt?

Only to a pro-choice rally. But definitely there. Someone has to be honest, or else others will distort the truth.

[qanda]

4. I don't get it...

What's the point?

[Crowdance]

12. The point is removing the shame

that many try to impose on those who choose abortion. When we own this part of our histories, when people acknowledge just how many of us have had and will have abortions, we'll be able to normalize the experience, and the right-wing anti-choice rhetoric will no longer be effective. They'll be outed for the misogynists they are, and abortion will be viewed as a reasonable choice to make to ensure a woman's well-being.
Women who've had abortions are 30 million strong, since R.v.W, and we must do the work of ensuring that our choice remains a choice for all.

[UdoKier]

18. I know several women who've had abortions...

...and none of them have told me they felt ashamed. They found it a painful decision, but the pain was about the potential child and what to do with it, not the wagging tongues of society.

[sangh0]

100. Let me guess!! Some of your best freinds are women

and what your friends say holds true for ALL women, right?

[UdoKier]

108. Yes, they are some of my best friends, actually.

Do you have a problem with that?

My friends that have done so are all fairly liberal and well-educated, they wouldn't care what some wild-eyed bible-thumper would think of them, so no, I don't presume that their experience is universal. I'm just sharing an anecdote.

I do believe that the personal emotional considerations usually weigh heavier than social concerns, but what the hell do I know, I'm a man.

So explain to me again what constructive effect this t-shirt is supposed to have? So far all it's done here in this little lefty enclave is stir up a flame war. Somehow I can't see it faring much better in society at large.

What the heck is wrong with a t-shirt that says "pro-choice and proud". I think a LOT more people people could get behind that. Or is the goal just to alienate people?

[sangh0]

111. Yes, I do have a problem

when you use their opinions as if they represent EVERY woman. I have women friends too, and some of them do NOT feel their abortions were emotionally painful experiences.

So explain to me again what constructive effect this t-shirt is supposed to have?

Do you feel obligated to demonstrate a "constructive effect" everytime you get dressed? If not, why should anyone else?

What the heck is wrong with a t-shirt that says "pro-choice and proud".

Nothing, and if you like, go ahead and wear one. I'm not going to criticize you for your wardrobe. Why don't you do the same?

Or is the goal just to alienate people?

Alienate who? You?

Is it going to change your vote? Is it going to change how the bible-thumpers vote? What exactly is your problem with this? You've been all over the place with this

[UdoKier]

120. My problem is that I think the message on the shirt is divisive.

nt

[sangh0]

134. That's a cop-out

Why won't you explain WHY you think it's divisive, instead of endlessly repeating yourself?

[UdoKier]

145. I think I have.

It's pretty clear from the posts that it pits people who are pro-choice but consider abortion to be a serious and personal decision against those who think that it is some sort of badge of honor and that it would be "no biggie" if it weren't for judgemental society's stigmatizing of women.

I think it's better to bring anyone who supports choice together. I'm not the only person who had that reaction to the shirt.

That being said, it IS after all just a t-shirt and I've definitely posted too much about it. I don't expect to see many people wearing a shirt like this, so it's probably a moot point anyway.

[sangh0]

163. Straw men aren't legitimate arguments

No one wearing the shirt has claimed it's a "badge of honor". That's an invention.

[Djinn]

218. maybe the point is to show

that there are a shitload of people of people who seem to beleive that just because a women WASN'T traumatised or even saddened by her abortion that she must think it's a "badge of honor"

Maybe it's to show all those women who stay dead quiet about it BECAUSE of the stigma and the argument that they're supposed to be in mourning for their poor dead "baby" that they don't need to feel any other way than the way they do - if they are relieved, happy, thankful, indifferent whatever then they are legitimate feelings.

Some people actually have a problem with the prevalance of "I am pro choice but" lines - if you don't want one FINE no-one asked, it's superfluous and serves only to further stimatise something.

[qwlauren35]

149. No, it's not to alienate.

There's just a difference between saying "I *SUPPORT* a woman's right to choose" and saying "there was a time in my life when I had to choose - I chose to abort, and I am grateful that it's legal."

Unfortunately, that's too long for a t-shirt... :-)

[Tweed]

84. ... and having pride? Disgusting

What a tasteless idea. I personally think that shame should come from an abortion (depending on the situation), but to wear it on your t-shirt as a badge of honor? That's horrible.

[sangh0]

103. So the protestors holding up pics from Abu Garaib

were PROUD of the torture they were protesting?

:crazy:

[Tweed]

128. So could you come up with two situations that are more different?

People were protesting the injustice going on in Abu Garaib, saying the torture shouldn't be happening. Now the way I understand it, the people who are wearing the shirt are not protesting the injustice of abortions. How could they? Abortion is already legal. :crazy:

People who wear this t-shirt are saying that it's okay not to care about having an abortion.

Perhaps you should take a course on the nuances of language?
:hi:

[sangh0]

135. Sure I could. The examples I gave are identical

They both are protesting. One group is protesting torture, and the other is protesting unjust laws the right wants to pass.

Perhaps you should take a course on the nuances of language?

Perhaps you should find an argument. Then you won't have to stoop to personal attacks.

[Tweed]

154. We see the shirt in two different ways

I see it as a distasteful badge of honor, much in the way people wear a shirt proclaiming themselves to have run a marathon for breast cancer or champions of the local softball league.

You see it as a sign of major protest.

In the end, the t-shirt stands for what the majority of people will see it standing for. I think that most people will see it as a 'badge of honor' (disgrace in this case). I could end up being wrong. I'm sure this won't be the last we hear of the matter. It will be interesting to see how most people react to the bloody thing.

[sangh0]

165. You're right. I see reality, and you keep repeating the fantasy

that a t-shirt is a "badge of honor"

[Tweed]

171. '...not having an agrument and resorting to personal attacks'

I believe you said something about that earlier. Yeah, you might want to look in the mirror. There's no black and white reality. The idea of 'truth' changes from time to time. Most people are going to see this shirt and think of it the same way that I do. That will be the 'truth' because that's the way to define truth at any given point. I'll keep the debate open and listen to what you have to say, but I'll still think that I'm correct on this one (as you will think yourself correct as well).

[sangh0]

173. Simple fact

You are the only one referring to it as "a badge of honor"

Most people are going to see this shirt and think of it the same way that I do

I always believe what people on the Internet tell me.

[Kipepeo]

193. Just because you see it as a

so-called badge of honor, does not mean that's what it is to a woman who wears it.

As others have said, I would most likely wear this shirt to a specific pro-choice event or rally...but I wouldn't be aghast at someone wearing it elsewhere either.

Would I be putting it on as a badge of honor? No, I would be putting it on to testify that I've made the choice for abortion and I'm glad I *had* the choice and I'm not ashamed of having made it.

This shirt to me seems like a backlash against the "shame factor" that I see instilled in society more and more everyday as a result of right-wing influence.

I have seen counter-protestors at pro-choice rallies wearing shirts that say "I regret my abortion." This is the opposite.

[Djinn]

222. BINGO

"People who wear this t-shirt are saying that it's okay not to care about having an abortion."

Who says people should be upset, traumatised or in your words "disgraced". The t-shirt says that you don't need to be ashamed of it THAT'S ALL.

[Book Lover]

129. Why should I be ashamed?

Why?

And why should the level of shame fluctuate depending on the situation? This is a tastefully done design on a muted, dark-colored cloth, not a badge of honor.

[Yupster]

206. If a woman got drunk at a party,

got pregnant by someone she doesn't know who, and then aborts the baby, she should be ashamed of her irresponsible behavior.

Shouldn't she?

[K-W]

211. Thats funny, I thought the t-shirt only said abortion

I dont remember seeing anything about drinking or anonomous sex.

But thanks for furthering the meme that abortions are only the result of stupid slutty girls, thats just great.

Should a women be ashamed of getting drunk and making a mistake, no more than anyone should of getting drunk and making any mistake.

Should she be ashamed of of her choice to abort the pregnancy, NO!!!!

[Yupster]

213. My response was to BookLovers # 129

which said why should a person's level of shame fluctuate depending on the situation.

I believe it should. If you got pregnant because of grossly irresponsible behavior, then you damn well should be ashamed of yourself.

[K-W]

214. So what?

Even if someone should be ashamed of how they got pregnant, what on earth does that have to do with being ashamed of having an abortion.

I can be ashamed of smoking myself to lung cancer, it doesnt mean I should be ashamed to have chemotherapy.

[Djinn]

225. Not particularly

she should maybe worry about risks to her health re STD's but not everyone has the same moralistic view of sex. Some of us don't actually attach any values or lack thereof on sex.

[jdj]

5. Howver I do like the stickers they give out at festivals

which say "I am the face of pro-choice America".

[KC21304]

6. Is this for real ? What idiots !

[Scout]

8. the point is, I think,

that "normal" women have abortions ... your mother, your sister, your aunt, your wife, your coworker, your police officer, your dentist

some people think only "bad" women have abortions, you know, those stupid women, those slutty women, those welfare queens and white trash women

I don't think a woman who wears such a t-shirt is bragging, she is stating a simple fact. One does not need to be either proud or ashamed of having an abortion, any more than one would be proud or ashamed of having an appendectomy.

[GiovanniC]

11. I Totally Disagree With This

I fear that women wearing these shirts would be put in unnecessary danger, and I don't believe that they would have any positive effect whatsoever.

I can, however, see a little humor in a GUY wearing these shirts. That's about it.

[UdoKier]

15. Most of us know a woman who has had one...

...and I don't know anyone who believes those stereotypes. I would never look down on someone who told me they'd had one. A person who wore a t-shirt to brag about it, I would be pretty disgusted with.

[Scout]

spent much time escorting patients into clinics...

past just such people?

heard them screaming slut, tramp, murderer at the teenager you're escorting into the clinic?

thought not.

edit for typos

[UdoKier]

27. In some areas of the country that is probably a factor - not where I live

That is truly sad, but wearing a t-shirt wouldn't do anything to keep those lunatics away. I was talking about NORMAL society, not the anti-abortion psychopaths.

[Scout]

53. nothing will keep those lunatics away...

that's not what I meant.

I used the lunatics as an example that yes, people DO have those nasty attitudes about women who get abortions.

[UdoKier]

77. Most people don't.

The people who shriek at women at clinics are scum. Even most fundies, as bad as they are, wouldn't go that far... Most fundies make a pretense of caring about these girls, to the point of funding those abortion "crisis centers" where they trick you into thinking it's a clinic, but then they try to scare you out of having one.

[Djinn]

227. read the thread

there are plenty of people who think people who have abortions should feel shame, regret, self disgust. Especially if they happened to have got preggars after (gasp shock horror) having sex with someone after getting pissed at a party.

This is all on a supposedly LIBERAL forum - PLENTY of people have these views, even if they're pro-choice they add the "BUT" morality addendum.

[qwlauren35]

160. Um.... think again....

Most women know how unsafe it is to state that they've had abortions in certain crowds. Most of the women I know who have had them don't tell ANYONE outside of a VERY small circle. So, the idea that most people know that someone has had an abortion is not likely. Yes, they may know a woman, and she has had one, but I doubt she's told everyone who knows her...

I probably know which of my girlfriends have because I'm so open about mine. And as a result, they know that they can talk to me if it's something they have to choose.

Another benefit of telling (not bragging!) is that you can support someone else who is making "the choice". If you don't tell, folks won't know that they can turn to you. Yes, it's nice to be able to go to a clinic and not get lynched, but it's not the same as having a FRIEND in your corner.

BTW... there's pro-choice and there's pro-choice. A lot of people say that they are pro-choice but they are still horrified at the thought of abortion, and don't want to discuss it, and probably wouldn't want to help a woman who was making the choice. There are PRO-CHOICE people who judge. They believe that it should be legal, but they still look down on those who would have one.

So, a "pro-choice" shirt doesn't convey the same message as "yes, I had one. Thank goodness I had the right to choose."

Maybe that's what the shirt should say: "Thank goodness I had the right to choose."

It's not so in your face... it doesn't suggest that it was an easy decision.

Let me know what you think...

[lapislzi]

69. I think you're right about that

but for many, it's too private to "advertise." It would be for me. It will be many years (and a bona-fide "need to know") before my daughter finds out I had one. Nothing to do with shame, everything to do with pain.

[calico1]

10. I am totally in favor of abortion rights

But wearing a t-shirt to brag about it? Its just sick, I'm sorry. Abortion is a difficult decision for most people. The last thing we want is to give the impression that abortion rights supporters are cavalier about it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

152. Well said. I am in favor as well, but this is a bit too "so whatish"

considering the nature of the situation.

[UdoKier]

13. YUK.

Having an abortion is nothing to be proud of.

I have always supported abortion rights, but an abortion is in most cases, a failure. A failure to take the responsibility and use contraception.

Sometimes I think that some of the pro-abortion folks are as extreme as the terrorist anti-abortion nuts.

I'd be all for a message like "pro-choice", but to take this most personal and often painful of all decisions and reduce it to a smart-ass t-shirt is pretty crass.

[Dookus]

25. nonsense

having an abortion *IS* taking responsibility.

[UdoKier]

32. It's a clean-up job of a preventable mess.

90+% of abortions could be prevented by consistent use of contraceptives by both men and women, not to mention men and women taking responsibility to not to get drunk and drugged when they go out.

There are a great many democrats who fully support women having the right to choose an abortion, even though we don't care for the practice. Expecting us to congratulate women on it is a bit much.

[TeacherCreature]

73. who is asking for congratulations?

You are extremely judgemental on this issue.

[Pathwalker]

34. "Abortion is...a failure to take responsibility..???

My childhood friend DIED because she was raped - she was a CHILD at the time!!! Are you seriously saying she should have taken "contraception" because she MIGHT be raped? That statement is disgusting!!! Yeah, women should ALL take THE PILL just in case some A$$hole might decide to RAPE her? These a$$holes are ALSO trying to OUTLAW contraception, but til then, we should all take contraception just in case some A$$hole decides to rape us????????? GROW UP!!!!!!!!

[T_i_B]

41. In defence of Udokier

I have always supported abortion rights, but an abortion is in most cases, a failure.

That's what UdoKier wrote and in no way was UdoKier denying the right of your childhood freind to have one as a result of rape.

Before anyone starts flaming me because of my Avatar, I should add that I am actually a tad ambivalemt about the abortion issue. It's not a major issue in the UK the same way that it is in the US and I don't consider abortion to be the litmus test for Christianity.

That T-shirt still sounds ultra-crass though.

[Pathwalker]

46. I'm buying one for my husband to wear!

We will not go silently into slavery!

[Tweed]

158. That's great sarcasm

"We will not go silently into slavery"! Classic, just classic

[UdoKier]

45. In MOST cases, I said.

There are many pregnancies that could not have been prevented, but they are not the majority. I'm very sorry about your friend, but I would imagine someone who went through such a trauma would be even LESS interested in wearing a tacky little t-shirt like that.

As for your histrionics that I should "grow up", I am not the one sceeching in all-caps, and I never said that all women whould use contraception in case they are raped.

All sexually active women should use contraception, or be sure that the men they consort with do so.

I agree that people who are trying to ban contraception (or even abortion) are assholes.

I'm on your side about all of this, but I don't see how you can possibly spin an abortion into a "success" or something to celebrate.

[Pathwalker]

Let's see. Women can get pregnant even when using

contraception - it happens EVERY day. I am Godmother to a young man whose mother got pregnant without missing a single pill. The damned doctor forgot to tell her that those anti-biotics he prescribed rendered the pill useless for at least a month. I also know a 57 year-old woman who got pregnant because she believed her doctor when he stated that she was too far into menopause to ever become pregnant again.
Condoms fail too - and I know three children who are proof of that.

Also, not all sexually active people should use contraception - those TRYING to have children should not use contraceptives. Using those blanket statements just irritates me no end.

I know many women who have HAD abortions, yet only one has ever fit the right-wing stereotype - a slut. All the others were either married with more children than they could afford, women whose birth control failed, or rape victimS. One was a woman who left her violent husband, only to later discover she was pregnant. Since the man had sworn to kill her if she ever left him - she chose to not be tied to the monster forever. It's easy to say "most cases of sbortion are a failure to take responsibility" but it is total bullshit. Unless you are an abortion provider, you are just relying on right-wing propaganda to prove your point of view.

[UdoKier]

87. I never called anyone a slut.

In fact, you called your own friend a slut. I don't believe in such a thing. Some women are promiscuous and some are not, and they have a right to be or not to be promiscuous. I couldn't care less. But most contraception IS pretty effective, and if you "double up" (use the pill + a condom) you are that much better off.

Sure contraception doesn't work on occasion. Then it's STILL a failure - of the contraception. A lot of people are throwing in "moral" arguments here where there is no call for it. I'm an atheist, and I don't believe that a fetus is a person, but it is a potential person, and it cannot be an easy choice to undergo a medical procedure to remove it from you. Maybe phrasing it this way would be better "I want all PREVENTABLE abortions to be PREVENTED". If for no other reason than they are an unnecessary use of a doctor's time. Women who have been raped or who thought they wanted a child but changed their mind are another story. Nobody should be forced to bear a child she doesn't want.

"Also, not all sexually active people should use contraception - those TRYING to have children should not use contraceptives. Using those blanket statements just irritates me no end."

Fair enough. But the problem isn't generality, it's my tendency to laziness in writing. Of course I meant to say "All sexually active people WHO DON'T WANT CHILDREN should use contraception." but I kinda thought that went without saying...

Using abortion as a form of contraception is just not right, IMO, and this t-shirt seems to celebrate that notion by trivializing it.

[Pathwalker]

95. I see it as putting a human face on it.

The abortion debate has revolved around the fetus for far too long - as if the woman involved simply does not matter. She does. Women have abortions for many, many reasons - as individual as their personal lives. The abortion debate - by concentrating on the fetus - acts as if the life of the woman involved simply doesn't matter, it has no place in the argument. By putting a FEMALE face on the debate, we make everyone confront the fact that an already living person - your mother, sister, daughter, friend is also involved. By constantly just focusing on the fetus, we completely wipe out the fact that there's a woman involved!! This T-shirt makes everyone confront that all too often ignored fact.
There's nothing trivial about that.
And the woman I called a slut wears a T-shirt with that word on it - she doesn't mind being called that - she wears it as an ad!

[UdoKier]

104. I totally agree with your statement here...

but I don't see how a t-shirt does any of the things you're talking about.

I think it's absurd that we're even talking about this at all. In much of Asia and in most of Europe, there is no abortion "issue". Women just get abortions when they need them - no "issue", no huge social divide. It seems that only the US has this endless rancorous debate (which the right uses skillfully as a wedge issue)

Abortion should be legal. And it should be rare. In an era of modern contraception there is no reason for people not to use it.

I characterized having an abortion as a failure - and many interpret that as a moral judgment, but I don't see it as a moral issue. It's a failure like accidentally running a red light and getting a $300 ticket is a failure. It's a mistake, and something that should not be done if possible (but there are times when it's necessary, and sometimes you just screw up and shit happens!) but it is not a MORAL failing or a sin. Those concepts are irrelevant to me, I'm not a Christian!

[Pathwalker]

112. Because it requires them to look at who's wearing it.

It HUMANIZES the debate by putting a face, instead of a fetus, at the center of the debate. While the morality part may be irrelevant to you - it has been the very crux of the debate as espoused by the right-wing. They always use the word failure, and they always call it a MORAL failure, so using that very loaded word in the context of the abortion debate strikes a nerve with many pro-choice women here at DU, me included. It is always used as a "failure to take MORAL responsibility for one's actions".

[UdoKier]

116. Okay. I get your drift.

I disagree that the t-shirt accomplishes what you want it to, but I totally follow you otherwise and I think you're right. It's very hard still for me to understand why we have to discuss whether something is "moral" or not, why should one person's idea of "morality" apply to EVERYONE, when not everyone has the same religious beliefs? Funny how even here at DU that comes in to play.

[Pathwalker]

122. Because the right-wing has control of this debate,

and for them, everything is couched in "morality". I don't agree with them, but they have controlled this debate for a long time, so it is now part and parcel of the debate. I agree with you that it is ridiculous, but we must never forget that their final goal is to force their version of morality on everyone, and this is just one part of that long-term goal. Personally, I believe in Liberty - the right to make one's own personal decisions regardless of how others might feel about those choices. Abortion is an extremely personal issue, and I have long resented the right's attempts to control my - or any woman's body. to me, THAT is "immoral" because it is totalitarian. I see it more as a control issue - using religion as their whip. As a pagan, I want nothing to do with their version of "morality". I just want them to stop trying to take away every 'choice' they don't like.

[Yupster]

207. I think the idea is similar to the NRA's

campaign a decade or so ago where they showed un-stereotypical people on tv saying "I am the NRA." A lady in a business outfit for instance.

I think it would be a more effective campaign to have un-stereotypical people saying "I'm pro-choice."

This shirt with "I had an abortion" to me would be like NRA guys having t-shirts that said "I shot at a criminal."

Pretty distasteful in my opinion.

[Sandpiper]

57. ?

Having an abortion is nothing to be proud of.

Why not?

From the tone of your posts I'd say you feel that having an abortion is something to be ashamed of.

I'd also say that your real objection to women wearing these shirts is that they aren't showing the proper contrition for having an abortion.

[TeacherCreature]

68. What is smart ass about the t-shirt?

I think you are doing what we call projection.

[K-W]

75. You dont really have a point.

I make mistakes every day. I dont have to be ashamed and embarassed when I sleep in and miss a job interview. If I wore a shirt that said "I slept in for a job interview, but I went and got another job" what would be the problem?

The fact is that accidents happen, mistakes happen. Especially with younger women who are raised to be ashamed of thier sexuality.

Ugh, your post just reaks of ignorance. Do you have any idea what it is like to be a women? What it is like to be constantly told that your sexulity is dirty and wrong. That no man can ever get accidentally pregnant, but so many of them are running around telling you what you can and cant do. I dont know myself what it is like, I am a man, but I bother to listen to women.

I didnt think this was a place where people who thin that women should suffer for thier sexual mistakes went to post.

[UdoKier]

113. Women will suffer for their sexual mistakes regardless of whether I post

Let's say every bit of misogyny and judgmentalism about abortion were suddenly gone. Abortion would STILL be a traumatic experience. It is a huge choice whether or not to carry a child, and it is a medical procedure with some element of risk. As far as I see it, that in itself is a kind of suffering. Even in a "perfect" world, having an abortion would not be easy.

Biology dictates that the burden of gestation falls on women. It's not fair at all, but it's biology, not society that made things that way.

[DrWeird]

118. It's people like you that cause the suffering.

Frankly, an abortion should be less tramautic than child birth. It's medically less invasive and risky. To bad there's people around telling them they've made a mistake and should be ashamed of themselves.

[K-W]

119. Yes, and men have nothing to do with women's mistakes.

Regardless, If I wore a shirt that said "I had surgery to remove a tumor in my lungs" would that not be the same thing. I would be admitting to a potentially dangerous medical procedure for a condition that was potentially the result of my poor decision making in smoking tobbacco.

What is wrong with that. You havent made your point. You havent explained why the shirt is wrong because it is a medical procedure that is usually the result of the actions of the individual.

[UdoKier]

123. I don't think the shirt is "wrong"

I just think it's divisive and flippant. People have every right to wear what they want.

[Selwynn]

138. Standing up for women's constitutional rights is something to be proud of

[David__77]

14. Ending abortion silence is commendable.

Pro-choice forces do best when they are on the ideological offensive: Abortion is not murder, and fetuses are not children! I commend women who are open about their reproductive choice when they chose abortion. There is not a grain of shame in that.

[DrWeird]

16. I say women who have an abortion should be ashamed.

In fact, they should be forced to wear a big scarlet letter 'A' on the front of their burqa.

[bleedingheart]

21. the religous right is just upset they didn't get this idea first

but for them they would have branded the mark on a woman's forehead.

[Mara Steele]

22. HA HA Ha

We don't always agree on things, Dr, but you do make me laugh a lot! :D

[TeacherCreature]

76. I think they should have their reproductive organs yanked out with

no meds. That way the careless tarts wouldn't be able to make that mistake again.

[Book Lover]

17. As a woman who has

had an abortion, I think this is a great idea, particularly to wear to political events. I've just ordered mine. As I said in LBN, even thought I live in the SF Bay Area, I imagine I'll get shit when I wear it; should be an interesting experiment.

on edit: Not every woman who has an abortion is all torn up about it; it is not an emotionally painful experience all the time. Signed, from one who knows.

[Mara Steele]

19. I think it's a great idea!

It's not a matter of bragging, it's just another kind of "coming out of the closet", and shoving it in the fundies' faces....

"I had an abortion" says the woman wearing the t-shirt, "and I'm not an evil person. If you have a problem with it, let's talk. But you're not going to scare me into staying in the closet about my reproductive choices as a woman."

This is just the proper radical response to an extreme radical element in our society that would prefer women be having abortions in alleyways w/coathangers, and keeping them a big, shameful secret from their families and friends.

This t-shirt is simply trying to bring abortion out in the open where it is safer, and much less a psychological burden to women.

It also SPITS in the faces of the fundamentalist type trying to control our bodies.

Great idea -- I absolutely applaud it.

[David__77]

26. You are 100% correct!

You said it perfectly.

[Mara Steele]

31. Thanks, David!

:pals:

I do have trouble understanding why so many people here are so upset about it.

Although I guess the shirt IS meant to be controversial & thought-provoking ...

...So maybe all the debate is simply indicative that it is doing its job! :toast: :-)

[Anaxamander]

38. I agree with Mara. It's radical, but

at this point (unfortunately), I think it's necessary to take a pro-abortion stand to arrive at a more pro-choice country, if that makes sense.

[AVID]

24. OK by me

Its a statement that otherwise would not need to be made, if there were not people insisting on probing into the private lives of woman (no pun intended).

Not much difference between an abortion acclamation shirt and the ones that jesus freaks wear showing jesus in pain, on a cross, dripping blood, with the slogan - No Pain No Gain.

[Logansquare]

29. I am pro-choice, and I find this insensitive and in poor taste

It may surprise the folks at PP, but many people who are pro-choice consider it an event that should be legal and rare, rare because reproductive choice will be exemplified by full access to contraception and the responsibility to use it. I have no objections to women telling their stories about their abortions in public, but a t-shirt trivializes what in many cases were traumatic impregnations (i.e. through rape or abuse), and difficult choices. I cannot believe this!

[TeacherCreature]

82. you don't have to wear one

Other women might chose to. I am proud of them for standing up for women.

[Logansquare]

94. I believe in free speech; if you want to wear one, fine

I was was date-raped as a young woman, and was very drunk when it happened. I was so ashamed that I didn't tell anyone, not even my best friend. I missed my next period. The people at the clinic at PP was so wonderful; they gave me a pregnancy test (I wasn't), and helped me to get contraceptives and counseling. If I had been pregnant, I might have gotten an abortion--I don't know. I'm glad it was an option. I care very deeply about and personally about the ability of a woman to choose, and because of that, I don't want it trivialized, as if it were like having a wisdom tooth pulled. That being said, if PP wants to have a PR trainwreck, and undo all of the hard work dedicated workers and volunteers have given it over the years, I will direct my donations and efforts to choice organizations that take this seriously.

[tokenlib]

35. Not a great idea...

Believe me, I support Planned Parenthood and am Pro-Choice with all my heart. And normally I love "in your face" tactics pissing off the pro-life nutcases... But from a public relations, political standpoint this is too much. Especially in the midst of a close election. I understand the effort to show how women all over the spectrum of society have had abortions--but it is just too much.

Most Americans believe in reproductive freedom, but they prefer abortion as a last resort--and recognize it to be a difficult personal decision. T-shirts such as these may be perceived as promoting abortion in an arrogant manner. They will be misunderstood and used against the Pro-Choice cause in the mass media. The t-shirts should quietly be shelved. They will offend too many people who support our cause.

[K-W]

48. Its not as if the right isnt already assailing abortion full force.

There is no way to avoid the battle, so why not fight with every weapon we have?

[Boomer]

183. What you said

Most Americans believe in reproductive freedom, but they prefer abortion as a last resort--and recognize it to be a difficult personal decision. T-shirts such as these may be perceived as promoting abortion in an arrogant manner.

Exactly. Treating this issue in a cavalier or even pragmatic fashion is going to create an incredible degree of wholly unnecessary friction on an already inciendiery issue. I know many pro-choice advocates who would never choose this option themselves. I respect their view of the sancity of life as long as they respect my right to a different perspective. Reducing this complex issue to an ad slogan on a t-shirt accomplishes nothing except to deeply offend a significant portion of pro-choice supporters.

[bloom]

37. I don't think it's "bragging"

I think it is saying people refuse to submit to the shame that others would like them to suffer.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Good! Another strike against hypocrisy.

I'd like to see one that said something like, "I had an abortion and I'm a Christian". Or, "I had an abortion and I'm a Republican"

[TeacherCreature]

93. I know a lot of women who could wear those shirts

I would like to see one that says "I am catholic and have had an abortion". I know lots of women who could wear that shirt.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

110. I was going to add that.

And, I too, know a lot of women who could wear it, including my stepdaughter. In fact, she could wear one that says, "I'm a Catholic, Republican, Bush Supporter, who has had 3 Abortions"

I'll refrain from commenting on her mental acumen.

[TeacherCreature]

115. That poor child is confused

I hope she gets over it soon for the sale of her own sanity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

146. "Confused" is far too kind.

The child is 35 going on 12. Married to a rear echelon career Air Force guy who thinks Boobya is saving civilization from the Muslim hordes.

Fortunately for us, we don't have to take blame for her idiocy. Her father raised her from age 6.

[rawstory]

42. IMAGE

(and direct story link) here: http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=143

[Batgirl]

88. I don't interpret it as "bragging"

but rather as a refusal to apologize.
Refusal to be a faceless stereotype.
Refusal to cringe in painful silence while being characterized, by anti-choice fanatics, as callously walking away from the clinic with no more angst than if they'd had a pedicure.

I can see why that would unacceptable to some. How dare they come out and admit it? They're supposed to hang their heads in shame and hope no one finds out about their guilty secret.

[K-W]

47. The responses on this thread are suprising.

Abortion is either wrong or not wrong.

If you think it is wrong, fine, but dont pretend to be pro-choice.

A social stigma against abortion is no less damaging to a womens right to choose than a law against it. Its time we stopped making women who have these procedures feel like they have something to be ashamed about.

I myself am ashamed of the supposed liberals who want to pretend to be pro choice, but still think that women should be ashamed of abortion and not dare let people know they had one. Thats disgusting.

[DrWeird]

52. No kidding.

I didn't think there were so many different ways to say, "(most) women who have abortions are lazy sluts who should be ashamed of themselves and just shut up."

[Dookus]

60. they're not surprising to me...

The 30-year attack on abortion rights by the right-wing has planted the seed in everybody's head that "abortion is wrong", even for those who believe it should remain legal.

For the record, abortion is not wrong and shouldn't ever be a cause for shame.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Well said and quite right.

It is utter hypocrisy to claim to be pro-choice and then insist that those who make that choice should be ashamed of it.

[Sandpiper]

67. Pretending to be Pro-choice

If you think it is wrong, fine, but dont pretend to be pro-choice.

Yeah, this thread has an awful lot of: "I support a woman's right to choose, but they shouldn't act like they're proud of exercising that right!"

And in a startling coincidence, the poster who's doing it the most also happens to be male.

[David__77]

85. Hmm. I agree with your sentiment, BUT...

...one CAN be pro-abortion rights and still be "morally" opposed to choosing abortion. I think that Clinton fell into that category. His "safe and rare" formulation led directly to the weakening of the pro-choice forces in the fight over this issue. It should not be the slogan "safe and rare." It should be "abortion on demand and without apology." Of course abortion rates would go down with proper dissemination of birth contraceptives, but this is not the main point--it is that abortion is not wrong. I am of the "offensive" wing of the pro-choice movement. I think abortion is not wrong. I welcome support from those that do, but oppose their leadership of the pro-choice movement.

[TeacherCreature]

97. It is okay to think abortion is wrong and still be pro-choice

What is wrong is telling women what to do and how to feel.

[K-W]

121. I dont think you truely can be, its a cop-out.

Generally if something is wrong, its ok to make it illegal. So spreading the opinion that it is wrong even while saying you are pro-choice is still destructive to a women's right to choose.

"Sure, you can choose whatever you want, but remember, one of your choices is wrong." Is that really pro-choice? Is using social pressure rather than legal pressure to remove the choice really any better?

Either a women should have the right to choose, and both choices are valid for her, or she shouldnt have the right to choose abortion because it is wrong.

You cant have your cake and eat it to.

[fujiyama]

231. Nonsense...

I view abortion as just another medical procedure, albeit a controversial one. Why don't we have bumper stickers and tee shirts that say, "I am circumcized?

Some people here view male circumcision as wrong, but that doesn't mean they think it should be illegal. Some view smoking and drinking as wrong, but that doesn't mean they necessarily believe in prohibition.

I'm completely pro choice (I agree with PP/NARAL on parental notification and "partial birth" ban as well), but I view late term abortions as wrong. That doesn't mean it's my right to tell other women that she can't get one.

So stop this ridiculous notion that one has to be PRO ABORTION to be pro choice, or pro abortion to be liberal. I myself believe the emphasis should be on better sex ed and easier access to contraceptives, including things like the day after pill.

That said, I don't really have a problem if anyone wants to wear the shirt. I don't really believe it helps the pro choice community very much though. I also think it would funny if guys wore it.

[DerekG]

147. That's funny, K-W...

Some of us are pro-choice but do find abortion to be abominable.

"I myself am ashamed of the supposed liberals who want to pretend to be pro choice, but still think that women should be ashamed of abortion and not dare let people know they had one. Thats disgusting."

Well, we all have our pet peeves, no? Personally, I think it's disgusting how "supposed liberals" can give their full support to Kerry and Edwards--who are fully complicit in the genocidal assault on the children of Iraq--and claim to be anti-war.

[K-W]

148. There is a difference between hypocrisy and compromise.

If you think abortion is abominable you are NOT pro-choice. You believe that one of the choices is abominable.

Thats like saying I think black people should have the right to vote, but I dont think they should vote, so I'm pro-civil rights.

[DerekG]

164. No...

I support Roe v. Wade. Without it, women would be forced to perform the abortions themselves, or go to butchers. I have read far too many accounts of women who have suffered and died because said procedures were illegal. If the legality of abortion is struck down, then there will only be more death. Yet I abhor the practice.

That is not hypocrisy; rather, it is consistent with the ethos I follow--the minimization of suffering.

But it *is* hypocritical to denounce the war crimes of Nixon, Reagan and the Bushites while ignoring (or making excuses for) the atrocities of Truman, Johnson, Clinton and our future president, who, based on the content of his speeches, will not end the war anytime soon.

That is hypocrisy.

[K-W]

169. Kinda

Ignoring the actions of dems would be hypocrisy. Aknowledging thier errors, but ompromising and supporting them for the political betterment of the country is not.

As far as abortion, I think what many women who are pro-choice want is an actual choice, not a society that tells them its legal, but its wrong and if you do it you should be ashamed. That doesnt sound like freedom to me.

[DerekG]

172. I understand

I just resent some of the more incensed posts on this discussion. Some posters should realize abortion is a complicated issue for many of us to grapple with: our qualms should not be met with inflammatory suggestions that we are part of the Taliban, or that we would love to see scarlet A's attached to women.

I was taken aback by your first post, K-W, but after reading the second paragraph of this recent one, I understand and respect your position.

Thanks.

[Yupster]

209. If Roe vs Wade were not the law

then each state would make its own abortion laws.

My guess is that at least 47 states would have legal abortions were there no Roe versus Wade.

[Yupster]

208. There are a lot of things that I think are wrong

but I still think should be legal.

I can't believe smoking is wrong but still think it should be legal?

[skypilot]

50. Why not simply wear a tee shirt ...

...that says PRO CHOICE. I'm sorry, but I think an "I had an abortion" tee shirt is a bit much. I think a PRO CHOICE shirt would get the same message across without being so crass.

[K-W]

56. no, because the message is this:

I am not ashamed. I have control over my body, and I am not going to let you tell me what I can and cant do with it. I had an abortion and I am you neighbor, I am your sister, I am your best friend.

This is abortion, its not a stupid argument on the op-ed page, it is real women who you know, trust, and care about.


Think of it this way, the other side is always showing images of fetuses, its about time we got images of the women.

[skypilot]

63. I still think a PRO CHOICE tee shirt...

...can convey all of those things. I am a gay male and not ashamed of it but I would never wear a shirt that said "I slept with a man" or "I gave a blowjob". A shirt with a pink triangle, a rainbow, or the words "Gay and Proud" can get the message across. It's not a matter of being ashamed or not being ashamed. There is still such a thing as taste--and this is in bad taste. And it will not have the desired effect, I assure you.

[K-W]

66. It doestn say that in the slightest.

A pro-choice t-shirt doesnt say "I had an abortion" it just says "I am pro-choice"

How can something that is a perfectly acceptable medical procedure be in bad taste?

I think it is people who want women to hide thier issues so you dont have to have your sensibilities ruffled that are truely in bad taste.

[skypilot]

70. I don't think a PRO CHOICE tee shirt...

..."hides" any issues. No, it doesn't announce that a woman has had an abortion but it makes it clear that she will have one if she so chooses--or that she has, in fact, had one and is not ashamed of her choice.

[K-W]

81. No it doesnt.

I am a man and I can wear a pro-choice t-shirt.

It should be obvious the difference here, I think you are choosing not to see it.

[skypilot]

90. It's obvious that a man cannot have an abortion.

A woman wearing a PRO CHOICE shirt conveys the message more forcefully because women can have abortions and it is possible that the woman wearing the shirt has had one. I think some of us are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think these shirts are going to have the desired effect. This seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

[qwlauren35]

167. Ahhhhhhhhh............

My dear, you are QUITE incorrect.

I know a TON of "pro-choice" women who would NEVER, EVER, EVER have an abortion. The very thought would make them ill.

But they would defend ANOTHER woman's right to have one.

So, when they wear a pro-choice shirt, they aren't saying "I will if I need to". They are saying "YOU can if YOU need to."

Again, it's like the difference between saying "I'm pro-gay and proud" vs. I'm gay and proud"

Can you see the difference?

[skypilot]

170. I'm curious.

If the thought of having an abortion makes them ill, how do you think they would respond to the tee shirts being discussed here?

[qwlauren35]

174. The discussion here...

would probably make them rub their hands with glee, that we are not a united front. But then they aren't either...

However, the shirts would make many of them uncomfortable.

For example, if you saw a woman with two children holding hands with her and she was wearing the shirt, what could you possibly say?

If you saw a woman in her 70's wearing the shirt, knowing that she had an abortion when they were illegal and deadly, what could you possibly say?

If you saw a Catholic nun wearing the shirt, what on EARTH could you say? (Hasn't she repented enough?)

It's not just the message that has power, it's WHO WEARS IT.

[skypilot]

181. Not a united front?

I don't know, I think that we're pretty much on the same side here. That is, I think the folks here at DU are mostly pro-choice and would like to see woman continue to have the right to choose. For me, being the pessimist that I am, I just think that something like these shirts could ultimately work against this goal. I think we agree on the pro-choice part.

[Sandpiper]

83. A question for you

Do you consider it to be in poor taste when gay men and women march down a street chanting: "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!"

If no, then why the objection to the tee shirt?

It's the same principle.

[skypilot]

92. I think I've answered this question.

Declaring that you are gay and proud or "here and queer" is not the same as declaring what you did in bed last night.

[bloom]

96. huh

Wearing a t-shirt that says "I had an abortion" says absolutely nothing about what a person did in bed last night...

[skypilot]

106. The point is HOW you get your message across.

I could say that I'm gay and proud or I could bypass that and get right in peoples' faces and say I slept with a man. I think these tee shirts are about getting in peoples' faces and though I can see the need for that, I don't think that these shirt are ultimately going to have the desired effect. I could be wrong but my gut tells me that nothing good will come of this.

[noiretextatique]

130. "i had an abortion"

what's soooo horrific about that? it's an "i" statement about something that the person did, not about who they are. and why you continue to equate this to having sex is beyond me.

[skypilot]

132. My problem with the shirt is not...

...that I think abortion is horrific. The problem, especially in today's climate, is that these shirts are going to be perceived by anti-choice people as confrontational--which they are--and I don't think that this is going to help us. The woman who wears this shirt is not going to be wearing it in a vacuum. She may wear it without shame but the folks on the right are going to portray her as a bragging "baby killer". I just think it's a bad idea.

[K-W]

133. you act as if the confrontation isnt already on full force

Anti-abortion protestors pass out pictures of fetuses. There is a major political assualt on the freedom to choose.

You would have a point if this was an issue that conservatives were ignoring, but they arent, they couldnt possibly be more motivated to stop abortion.

Yes, in the short term it may anger people, but that is the point. The other side is confronting peoples sensibilities, we need to confront them too.

[skypilot]

141. Yes, I know that the confrontation is in full force...

...but I don't think that this is going to help. The "confrontation", at some point, needs to be turned into a "discussion"-- without pictures of fetuses or "I had an abortion" tee shirts. I think people on both sides of the issue are capable of moving things in the wrong direction.

[K-W]

143. I dont buy it. The shirts are a positive statement.

They say very simply, I am not ashamed.

[skypilot]

150. I don't really have anything else to contribute...

...to this discussion. If woman wear the shirts and good comes of it that will be great. I just don't think that that is what is going to happen.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

136. how is "i had an abortion" confrontational?

and i'm sure there are many straight people who feel the same way about gay pride.

[noiretextatique]

105. honesly, i think the shirt is about attitudes

that consider abortion an evil act committed by an evil person.
just as many would love for gays to cower in the closet, so too should women who'v ehad abortion remain silent about their experience.

the tee shirt says: abortion is a medical procedure, i had one, and i am not ashamed of having one.
i will be buying one of those tshirts, and i expect no more or less of a reaction than when i wear my dyke march tee shirt.

[TeacherCreature]

114. A t-shirt that said both would be interesting

I'd wear that shirt just for fun.

[qwlauren35]

166. But your example is confusing.

You said "Gay and Proud" is okay.

That admits that you're not just SUPPORTING, but you ARE.

So, what would those of us who have had abortions have on our shirts to say not just that we SUPPORT, but we have EXPERIENCED IT?

[skypilot]

175. I will concede that I don't know...

...what you could put on a tee shirt to tell people that you have experienced an abortion. Some people strongly disapprove of gay people and what we do in bed but some people equate abortion with murder. Murder. I think that needs to be kept in mind.

[TeacherCreature]

102. Was your appendectomy crass?

:shrug:

You think women should be ashamed and you are missing the point. The shirt is about solidarity and refusing to be ashamed.

[proud patriot]

51. I'm not sure how I feel about this

:think:

[bloom]

74. I think the reason "LifeSiteNews' fears these shirts...

is precisely because it could help some women feel more OK about having an abortion.


Maybe that is where some people are coming from here.


I think less guilt is good.


That does seem to be the real debate. Should people feel guily or not. These shirts seem to be getting to the heart of the matter.

[skypilot]

79. But will any women wear them?

*

[Book Lover]

107. This one will

I've just ordered mine. This is a great political t-shirt, and I am intensely curious to see the reactions I get here in the SF Bay Area.

[David__77]

80. Overcoming guilt is crucial.

When we've done that, women can truly empower themselves and control their bodies and destinies. I am sorry that so many progressive-minded people don't see this.

[CaTeacher]

101. I t hink that reproductive rights

is not only one of the areas where we have not only been right, but we have also stood firm over many years.

I think people should get these t-shirts and wear them with pride. Polls show that MOST people are pro-choice! This is one of our greatest strengths--and we need to emphasize strongly that we are pro-choice.

Don't let the bastards "frame the debate" for us. People who say--oh don't use the word abortion--it offends the fundies--are just weasels who play into the hands of the RW. It is important to stress to women what WE have fought for.

[realisticphish]

109. I absolutely

refuse to put my opinion on abortion; i am a guy, and unless my girlfriend/wife were to get pregnent by me, i have absolutely no say (besides voting, of course). This tee-shirt, to me, isn't that bad, EXCEPT that, if you haven't noticed, teenagers like to shock people. Kids frequently wear shirts just to piss people off, and im concerned that people won't understand the message, and will think the wearer is mocking those women who have had abortion


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[theboss]

117. Eegads

I can't imagine what would possess someone to wear this, but to each her own, I guess.

[noiretextatique]

124. to all those agasp with horror: what is "wrong" with having an abortion?

what's wrong with saying "i had an abortion?" what's wrong with wearing that statement on a tee shirt? thanks.

[Pathwalker]

126. I'm so glad you found this thread, Noiretblu!

I've been hoping you'd join in!

[noiretextatique]

127. thanks, anj...likewise

i'm impatiently awaiting an answer to my query :hi:

[sangh0]

139. I'll tell you whats "wrong" and "confrontational" about it

It's a demonstration of a woman's power to make decisions for herself.

Dangerous stuff.

[ScreamingMeemie]

156. There's nothing wrong with having an abortion.

But that's about as crude as printing up a "I had a miscarriage" T'shirt. But whatever floats it. I just don't see it doing a whole heck of a lot of positive.

[theboss]

168. It strikes me as similar to an "I overdosed" t-shirt

First, let me point out that I support abortion. I've been there for a few friends who have done it. But even they would agree that it's an incredibly difficult decision and one that stays with them psychologically to this day. To get in the situation where an abortion is required - in most situations - generally means that an error in judgment was made at some point. We should be allowed to correct our mistakes, but I don't know if being proud of it is a good thing.

I compare it to an overdoes in the sense that it is doing something I feel should be legal, but still resulted in a very unfortunate situation. I guess you could also compare it to an "I had an affair" t-shirt. Again, should be legal but strikes me as very private and very psychologically difficult to work through.

[noiretextatique]

190. not everyone feels it's an unfortunate situation

and of course the idea is to put a human face on all the rhetoric.
i'd compare it more to: "i had a legal medical procedure."

[leyton]

194. There are some of us who think it is a terrible thing.

Perhaps it is within a woman's rights, perhaps not, I don't know, I am not wise enough nor worldly enough nor experienced enough. But I do believe that abortion is, in most cases, a terrible act. Why trumpet abortion on a T-shirt?

[noiretextatique]

198. perhaps because they don't agree with you

that is, they don't share your belief that abortion is a "terrible act."
unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be allowed, even among liberals. this is why i asked the question...to demonstrate that those who have a problem with the shirt really have a problem with abortion. and of course, that's not a problem...just as long as people recognize when they are projecting.

[leyton]

199. Alright, I see what you're saying.

Well, yeah, my problem with the T-shirt is mostly my problem with abortion in general.

[redqueen]

125. Brilliant idea

but I have to hope it doesn't generate any unfortunate backlash. I hope those that choose to wear these are trained in self-defense and carry pepper spray or mace if not a weapon.

[Sandpiper]

144. If we allow fear to rule our actions

Then our opponents have already won.

Fear, intimidation, and violence are the favorite tools of the anti choice movement, we know this already. But we can't allow these Gestapo tactics to sway us.

[Selwynn]

137. Nice. :)

If you don't want one, don't buy one. However, abortion is a legal and approrpiate proceedure and woman who make medical decisions in consultation with medical professionals should be free to both make that choice and talk about/make expressions concerning that choice in whatever way they see fit.

If it offends you... good. :D

[Tight_rope]

140. It's just a T-shirt....who cares...We have bigger fish to fry!

[ScreamingMeemie]

155. If you want to wear it, fine. But it's not something I'd want to publicize

I will wear a pro choice T'shirt, but I could not ever see myself wearing what will "appear to" bragging. But I'm not going to stop you. I just don't think it will help furthur our cause one bit.

I haven't yet bought my "I had a miscarriage" T'shirt.

[K-W]

159. Someone needs to support this bragging thing, I dont get it at all.

I had an abortion is not bragging.

"Proud of my abortion" might be

Saying this is bragging is just ugly spin.

[ScreamingMeemie]

162. I'm not saying that it is bragging, but it certainly can be perceived as

such. There are better ways to get our point across and this is not one of them. My personal opinion is that if I had chosen to have an abortion, I would not be proud to wear that shirt. Again, it's my opinion.

What kind of looks would I get in a miscarriage T-shirt?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

176. OMG

that stuff about contraception is CRAZEE!!! Do they understand medicine, physiology, or science at ALL? Contraception is NOT a form of abortion!!!

If you STOP an egg from being fertilized in the first place, how can it be ABORTED, you stupid turds?

Sheesh.

[K-W]

177. Every sperm is sacred!

It has never made any sense.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

179. Wonder how they feel about my husband's vasectomy?

Or my 11 miscarriages?

Heh, on second thought, I don't really care what they think about it.

[Swamp Rat]

188. But sure is a funny Monty Python tune!

[bloom]

192. I think it adds an interesting twist to the whole deal.

Just say it's possible that the egg and sperm get together sometimes and because of the hormones of the pill are then discarded. Or say with the IUD that the egg and sperm get together and because of the foreign object are unable to continue on their reproductive way.

That would mean (and it does mean according to the LifeSite people) that every woman in the world who has used the pill or an IUD could wear this t-shirt or at least one that says "I've had many embryos aborted".

And so could the men.


I think it would put a lot of people off of their high horses.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

178. I think what they are trying to do with the t-shirts

is offer it to women who don't feel ashamed of the decision, who feel it was still a good decision because they couldn't have possibly cared for a child at that time in their lives.

I see it as trying to take the stigma off of abortion.

Honestly I just think there are bigger things to get het up about in this world than women having abortions--such as the children already HERE who need our help. You never see anti-choicers adopting tons of unwanted kids, now do ya?

[formernaderite]

180. Totally idiotic and senseless....

..Seriously, the issue isn't one of bragging...it's a privacy issue. Those t-shirts will turn the public off in a big way. I'm an atheist, and see abortion as a personal tragedy which is not to say women don't have the right to make that choice. This is one issue I'd rather not see advertised in an inhuman way.

[sangh0]

182. It is totally idiotic and senseless

to imply that privacy issues shouldn't be discussed in public. If that were true, abortion would still be illegal.

[noiretextatique]

200. is it ok with you if people don't see it the way you do?

is it ok if some grasp that abortion is being used as a political issue, and fight back, with fire, so to speak? is it ok if abortion isn't a personal tragedy, or something to cower in the closet about, too shattered to ever discuss in public?

[formernaderite]

204. of course....but I'm also entitled to be a bit repulsed.

It's strange because I find religious people to be more at ease with abortion, and find many atheists like myself who cringe just a bit. That said, I just don't think they're going to hold sway over public opinion with this.

[noiretextatique]

239. yes, you are entitled to cringe

as i mentioned before, i'm sure the shirt is for fundraising, not to sway public opinion. funny how people jump on the "what would rush think" bandwagon at the mere mention of anything remotely "controversial." religious people more at ease with abortion? the evidence doesn't seem to suggest that.

[Swamp Rat]

184. "I bomb unborn babies"... George Bush and Dickhead Cheney

"I rape and torture pregnant women"... Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz

[Mara Steele]

201. Hi, Swamp_Rat!

Good to see you here! :hi:

[Fescue4u]

185. Congratulations?

What kind of reaction exactly is the wearer of the shirt supposed to illicit?

Good job on that Abortion? Give'm a high five? Ask her on a date because she may be promiscuous?

how strange.

[ieoeja]

189. I wish my grandmother had worn one of these.

My wife took a lot of crap off my mother and her sisters after mentioning that she had an abortion as a young adult. This went on for years before they happened to start in on her in front of their mother who brought the crap-fest to an abrupt halt with the simple statement: "I had an abortion".

[MrSlayer]

195. Yeah that's really something to be proud of.

What foolishness.

[AVID]

197. get yours today - i did

http://store.yahoo.com/ppfastore/ihadabt.html

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

202. i want an "I was aborted" tee

anyone know where I can get one?

[Warren DeMontague]

203. I've got some bumper stickers:::

They say

"Prevent Abortion- Enjoy Sodomy"

They're those little black kind.

I've got a whole ton of em. I'll sell them for a buck apiece, but I don't have an online way to get them out. Anyone interested go to my cafepress site at

http://impeachdubya.com

and click on the "EMAIL ME" link. I'll try to figure something out.

[never_get_over_it]

205. I am completely pro-choice

but these t-shirts are beyond STUPID...I can't imagine anyone who has had an abortion wanting to wear one - this is actually in very poor taste.

[DianeG5385]

210. This is nothing to celebrate. Abortion s/b a last resort

I am pro choice for others, not for myself. I can't judge others, I don't know their circumstances, life is rough, and I don't want the option foreclosed for anyone. I never want a woman to have to make the choice of abortion, it will stay with you for the rest of your life. You will mark the birthdays, you will always feel the loss. It is not a joke. It is a choice desperate woman make and I hope never to see any Democrat celebrating abortion. Choice is important, alternatives to abortion are better, but choice must be available. It is nothing to joke about. Nuff said.

[K-W]

212. There is no joke, there is no celebration.

Stop spinning this like a conservative.

The shirt says simply "I had an abortion"

It does not say "I'm so happy I had an abortion", "Everyone have an abortion", or even "I'm proud to have had an abortion"

[DianeG5385]

215. My point. Nothing to share and be proud about.. T-shirt idea is stupid

You think the fact I DON'T CELEBRATE ABORTION is somehow a Republican talking POINT???? I hope NO One Rep or Dem would EVER make abortion a talking point like this. Abortion should always be the absolute last option! You obviously don't know me, but I respect all life and hope that the choice to preserve life is ALWAYS made first (including ants and spiders). I speak from experience, I would have a thirty-year old had I not made the choice I did. I DON'T CELEBRATE IT! I acknowledge the fact that I HAD NO OTHER OPTION!!.

[Alenne]

245. Please remember

the way you feel about your abortion is not the way a lot of women feel. Some women don't mark the birthday or feel a loss. And some women aren't desperate or traumatized by the decision.

You are obviously pro-choice for yourself because you have made the choice.

[Crowdance]

246. Speak for yourself.

There are plenty women who know that they made the right choice for themselves and their loved ones. No marking of birthdays or "feeling the loss" for all eternity. And you seem to be continually missing the point: this isn't a celebration of abortion. It's a political statement: ordinary women like me, like your mother, your sister, your wife, your coworker have abortions. Why is this so hard to parse?

[slutticus]

216. I wonder how many women who have actually had an abortion..

....would ever wear that shirt. Seems like a personal thing to me.

[K-W]

224. Im sure a very few. But unlike many here,

I think they should feel free to do so.

[slutticus]

228. But what about the ones who haven't had one?

I think it would be insulting to women who have had to make that difficult choice...that shirt just seems tasteless to me. It seems to trivialize the whole thing...but that's just my opinion. Anyone can wear it if they want.

[fujiyama]

234. I don't think anyone here

is saying no one should have the right to buy the t shirt, they're just wondering what good will really come of it. If someone does, good for them. Atleast the money goes to a decent cause. I don't think much good will come of the t shirt itself.

[noiretextatique]

238. i'm sure the shirt is intended to raise money

and little else. i don't know why some here think otherwise.

[neebob]

219. Thanks, I'll pass

Ask me again when I feel like being yelled at and having stuff thrown at me and I'm in the mood to give my mother a heart attack or something.

[Nikki Stone 1]

221. It seems to be a response to JOHN ASHCROFT who demanded PP's records

of women who had abortions. It's an "in your face" answer to police state tactics.

See below:

(From AP: February 12, 2004)

Justice Dept. Demands Abortion Records


Feb 12, 10:24 PM (ET)

By DAVID CRARY


NEW YORK (AP) - Under fire from abortion-rights groups, Attorney General John Ashcroft insisted Thursday that doctor-patient privacy is not threatened by a government attempt to subpoena medical records in a lawsuit over the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act.

At stake are records documenting certain late-term abortions performed by doctors who have joined in a legal challenge of the disputed ban. President Bush signed the act into law last year.

Critics of the subpoenas accuse the Justice Department of trying to intimidate doctors and patients involved in the contested type of abortion.

At least six hospitals have been targeted by subpoenas, including facilities in New York and Michigan which said they are weighing how to respond. Last week, a federal judge in Chicago blocked release of records from Northwestern Memorial Hospital; another judge is considering a similar request from Hahnemann University Hospital in Philadelphia.

Ashcroft said the Justice Department will accept the records in edited form, after deleting or masking any information that would identify a patient. Abortion-rights supporters nonetheless depicted the subpoenas as a dangerous intrusion into medical confidentiality....

[DianeG5385]

226. One of the reasons I never ran for public office

Although technically records are protected, the mealy mouthed ones have a way of squirreling info out of people.

[Nikki Stone 1]

229. The invasion of privacy is frightening; hence the T- shirts.

It's terrible that someone decent would decide not to run for public office because of having had an abortion. Even worse is having private citizens without public ambitions being outed and harassed by right wing nutbags. Some of these anti abortion types are lethal.


(Edited to respell T-shirts)

[fujiyama]

235. That's nuts

I didn't know about that. I don't know if the t shirts will help much, other than the money going to decent cause, but it makes you understand why groups like PP and NARAL are around though.

[noiretextatique]

240. thank you for explaining the political context of the shirt

:argh:

[jab105]

232. Horrible...

abortion is a horrible personal choice for any woman, it should be private and one of the most serious choices of her life...

My mother is a Republican BECAUSE her mother used to tell her that if abortion had been legal she would have been aborted...

To minimalize abortion to a fucking tshirt that BRAGS about it is utterly repulsive, I'm disgusted...

And, yes, I am a woman...

[Nikki Stone 1]

233. It's about John Ashcroft, not about bragging or personal feeling

It's a way of getting in Ashcroft's face.

[noiretextatique]

237. the personal is POLITICAL

and it's not women who've had abortions who make this issue political, when it SHOULD BE personal.

[wtmusic]

257. Agree 100% -- lowering themselves to fundie level

Is trivializing the issue the strategy here? If so, it sucks.

[Warren DeMontague]

236. I'm gonna get one that says "Sperm Murderer"

I know, I know, nothing to be proud of..

[vincent_vega_lives]

241. Someone please explain to me why...

that if a woman has an abortion she is empowering women and standing up for reproductive rights, but if a woman makes a conscious decision to remain celibate until she meets the right person (for marriage, child rearing) she is odd, strange, even a freak.

Personally I think the latter is much more admirable than the first, and far more "empowering" to women.

[noiretextatique]

242. hmmm...you have your own answer

hint: it has A LOT to do with the way you posed the question :eyes:

[Cheswick2.0]

243. must we chose betweent the two?

I have no problem with women who stay celebate and wait for the right person....I hope you are also suggesting that men do the same.
However if someone doesn't make that choice what does that have to do with anything?
I really am not sure what your point is.

[vincent_vega_lives]

247. Well men too

obviously have an equal role to play.

The problem is the choice to have sex has consequences and we have tried to create a consequence free behavior by celebrating abortion as the premier womans "right".

The goal should be to encourage responsible behavior rather that consequence free behavior, thats my only point.

[K-W]

248. Sorry, you are wrong, thats right wing lies.

Nobody is trying to remove any consequences, that is a right wing mischarecterization of the pro-choice movement.

Abortion no more removes the consequences of sexual behavior than chemotherapy removes the consequences of smoking.

A valid, legal, acceptable medical treatment for something does not remove the consequences of the actions that SOMETIMES lead to the condition.

[vincent_vega_lives]

250. So getting pregnant is like getting cancer?

Is that your argument?

Nobody is trying to remove any consequences, that is a right wing mischaracterization of the pro-choice movement.

So an unwanted pregnancy is what, not a consequence of sexual behavior? You're really drinking the cool-aid there.

A valid, legal, acceptable medical treatment for something does not remove the consequences of the actions that SOMETIMES lead to the condition.

Huh? Pregnancy is NOT like cancer. You can get cancer even if you don't smoke. You CAN NOT GET pregnant unless you make a choice to engage in certain activities (except in the case of rape, of course).

Do you have kids? Is this what you will/did/do tell them?

[K-W]

254. Stop spinning

I dont come to this forum to have my words spun against me.

I made a comparison, not an equivelance.

My point in the comparison was that just because something is the consequence of a bad choice, does not mean that the medical solution to that condition should be stigmatized. Stigmatizing Chemo wouldnt stop people from smoking. Just like making abortion an acceptable choice to terminate a pregnancy will not encourage irresponsible sex, that is rediculous, and your implication tht it is being done on purpose is even more rediculous.

Making abortion a legitimate choice for women with unwanted pregnancies does NOT take away the consequences of sex.

The idea that if we dont stigmatize abortion women will turn into demon sluts running around getting screwed and killing babies is an ugly right wing lie.

[Warren DeMontague]

244. I'll explain to you why...

if you'll explain to me why some people think other people's sex lives are any of their business.

I've never called anyone odd, or strange, for remaining celibate. Hey- more power to ya. It's when self-proclaimed cultural conservatives want to pass laws telling other people what to do with their bodies (or, for that matter, people want to pass laws telling other folks what they can read, watch, or how they can or can't get their jollies) that I, personally, become involved.

If a woman wants a t-shirt that says "I had an abortion", hey, more power to her. If a woman wants a t-shirt that says "Virgin", hey, more power to her.

I think the abortion shirts are relevant, from the POV of the discussion, because there is a widespread attempt on the part of the religious right to redefine the product of conception, from micron-sized fertilized egg onward, as a "baby".. Well, I don't know what you think, but I don't think a micron-sized fertilized egg equals a baby. Neither do I think that the millions of sperm I murder on a semi-regular basis, being a healthy sexually active man, are little tiny human beings with "rights". Nor do I think that, when a woman has her period without getting pregnant, she is "murdering" a potential "life". It's semantics, and the right knows that the majority of americans are pro-choice, so they are trying to repeat, over and over again, fertilized egg=baby.. fertilized egg=baby.. Well, Not everyone agrees with that assesment, and if women want to speak out on the fact that they had an abortion-- and aren't going to apologize for it, I say, more power to 'em.

[vincent_vega_lives]

249. Good answer

I don't think any two consenting adult's sex life is anyone's business.

However it does become complicated when a third life (and while a fetus may or may not be HUMAN life, it is certainly a potential human life) becomes involved. Complicated enough to warrant serious consideration.

Not complicated enough to criminalize abortion of course, but certainly enough to have some guidelines in place.

Abortion is a medical procedure to undo an unintended consequence. It is a choice between having an unwanted child or ending an unwanted child.

There is another choice, however, and that is be responsible and use at least two forms of contraception, or even to not have intercourse until you are in a committed relationship.

That is the choice I am trying to instill in my children, not that abortion means sex without consequence which is what seems to be the unintentional (or is it?) message.

[Warren DeMontague]

259. I always say...

Against Surgical Abortion? Great! Support RU-486.
Can't deal with RU-486? Okay, make access to "morning after" contraception more available.
Problem with that? Well, surely we can all agree that preventing pregnancy in the first place is the preferable way to go. So, teaching kids about birth control, having health plans cover birth control, and supporting scientific research into better, more effective birth control (a science for which there has been no meaningful advances in 40 years) should be a no-brainer among the so-called "pro-life" crowd.

But it's not. Why? Because so-called Pro-Life groups in the USA are almost universally anti-birth control, as well. And the ones that aren't, are decidedly ambivalent about it. Certainly to the point that they're not going to encourage birth control as part of a comprehensive sex ed curriculum.

Honestly, if this was really just about preventing abortion and "saving potential human lives", someone (anyone!) would be out there pointing out a few obvious things, like, if you encourage people to engage in oral, or anal sex, no one will get pregnant. Is anyone saying anything even remotely resembling that to kids, or to adults for that matter? Hell no. Because half of the agenda is about control, no matter how much they argue it isn't. Why, you can't even suggest that people masturbate, despite the fact that it is a 100% risk-free way (generally, unless you're doing it wrong, or unless you're Bush, who could hurt himself eating a pretzel) to blow off a little sexual steam-- just look what happened to Jocelyn Elders.

I agree that surgical abortion is a serious matter, but by no means do I accept that there is a moral equivalency between a clump of cells in a petri dish (as Ron Reagan Jr. so eloquently explained to Peter Jennings this evening) as there is to a fetus at 16 weeks, which in turn is not the same thing as a baby. I think there is a heirarchy of progressively higher orders of development between sperm and egg (which almost no one regards as "human beings", even though they have equal amounts of potential) to fertilized egg, on up to baby. I don't accept that the second sperm meets egg they magically transmogrify from something with no rights at all, that we can feel blase about leaving on the bathroom tile, into something that has rights under the 14th amendment. Again, that's just one man's opinion.

I would certainly like to see a day when surgical abortion is no longer necessary, as, I suspect, would most pro-choice people. Obviously, the best thing to do is prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

[vincent_vega_lives]

261. I certainly agree with you on the issues you bring up

Both sides tend to polarize on this issue, and that political polarization tends to mean any legitimate issues surrounding abortion gets drowned out.

thanks for the input.

:toast:

[Medium Baby Jesus]

252. You are kidding. Right?

Unfuckingbelievable

[vincent_vega_lives]

256. That's the argument

I've come to expect.

[Kipepeo]

260. The examples you give:

Women are being attacked for the first example you give: having an abortion. There are people working as we speak to take that right away from women.

Women are not being attacked for the second example you give: deciding to remain celibate until marriage. As far as I know, no one is out there pushing for a law that would make it illegal for women to refrain from sex until they're married.

You set up a false argument. Just because we push for a woman's right to abortion doesn't mean we don't also cherish a woman's right to remain celibate until marriage. The difference is: ONE is UNDER ATTACK.

jeez louise...

Excuse me if I'm not out in the streets with my "Get your laws off my body: Don't make it illegal for me to remain abstinent!" sign.

[vincent_vega_lives]

262. False argument

I agree if taken from a political standpoint. But there are other aspects of the subject. I am looking at it from a social behavior stance, and trying to put a rational lense on the issue. In this political climate both sides tend to focus only on the extremes of the issue.

[Deja Q]

255. I'll wear it on weekends!

And I'm a male! :D