What is up with the DNC confiscating PEACE SCARVES from DK delegates?

[tinanator]

Just now on Democracy Now two delegates were telling how they had buttons and scarves confiscated! Are they INSANE?

[deutsey]

1. The whole report was disturbing...

"Kerry enforcers"? And then there is the barbed-wire enclosed "free speech zone" where protesters are cordoned off.

As I keep saying, although I'm voting for Kerry I have no regrets about leaving the Democratic party.

[MaineDem]

2. I'd like the whole story before making an opinion

Confiscated by whom? What's the rationale? What's the other side of the issue?

[truthspeaker]

3. what happened when they refused to give them up?

I'd like the whole story too.

[tinanator]

4. I dont believe they were given a choice

It was aquick report that happened only seconds before I posted. The show is still on, but should be available in full right away at
DemocracyNow.org

[Warpy]

8. Right, like the other side of the protest gulag issue

First, Kerry had nothing to do with it. This is Homeland Security's idea with the location approved by Mayor Menino. Second, permits have been issued for uncaged protests elsewhere in the city. Third, the nutters in the hoods yesterday were all rabid antichoicers who were all bent out of shape because they won't be allowed to roll on the ground and block entrances to the Fleet Center Operation Rescue style (against fire laws, not to mention a royal pain in the ass).

The more you find out about any story, the more you realize that the press is lazy and corrupt.

[porphyrian]

5. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the DLC... - n/t

[MadHound]

6. Didn't you get the memo?

No peace protests while the party is corinating a candidate who promises to continue the war. It would be unseemly and embarasing. After all, how can you allow the conscience of the party to be present at such an unconscienable act?

Thus the Democratic party eschews democracy when uncomfortable subjects are brought up:eyes:

[emulatorloo]

34. See Post #21

EOM

[MadHound]

45. Yes, and here is another report

This just off of DemocracyNow<http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/144247>
(snip)"Delegates for former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates"(snip)

They also follow this with a couple of interviews with people who were there. Notice that they didn't say ALL, they said SOME. However the fact that this is happening at all is quite disturbing. So much for democracy at the Democratic Party.

[deutsey]

46. Minnesota Delegates: Charles Underwood and Donna Cassutt

They're DK delegates and peace advocates.

[G_j]

7. Will Pitt .. can you look into this? n/t

[emulatorloo]

32. See Post #21

EOM

[emulatorloo]

9. Yes let's go WILD over an unsubstantiated RUMOR

I want more details before I decide the sky is falling.

[G_j]

11. I've read enough of of tinanator's posts

to believe they are not just making something up.
The link on Demcracy Now will be available.

[deutsey]

12. DN is doing a two-hour format covering the convention

This report was in the second hour. The reporter was talking to a delegate in the convention hall, I believe. The delegate was complaining that anything advocating peace (signs, buttons, etc.) has been confiscated by what he called "Kerry enforcers". He pointed them out during the interview...according to him, they're wearing vests of a certain color (green?).

I'm at work and am only hearing bits and pieces of the report, so I don't know who the delegate was. I know he was complaining that peace advocates like himself are being shut out of expressing their views at the convention. The report ended with Amy Goodman, I think, saying that someone who took out a pink scarf during the interview that said "Give Bush the Pink Slip" was told by one of the people in the vests to put the scarf away.

That's what I remember from the report, and, again, I'm only listening as I'm able while working.

[truthspeaker]

14. I don't understand how someone can forcibly remove a button

I'd also like to know what would happen if someone refused to put a scarf or sign away.

[G_j]

16. thanks

It shouldn't be too hard to find out who the folks in green vests are.

[AnnInLa]

48. During the C Span coverage last nite.....

I saw that pink scarf quite a few times when C-Span scanned the audience, why was it allowed then?

[deutsey]

49. The delegate also expressed frustration that there is no peace plank

in the Democratic platform. I honestly don't know what the platform is at this time. Do you know how accurate the delegate's assessment is?

[jpgray]

10. Can you please elaborate?

What circumstances were there--who took the buttons/scarves and what reasons did they give? Were they taken away or were the delegates asked to remove them?

[tinanator]

13. They were taken away

Im fairly sure of that, but it was a very brief interview, and my memory is anything but photographic. Please listen to today's program for the exact report. It will be rebroadcast in two hours on this station which has a 24 hour archive as well as real time.
http://www.kfcf.org/

[jpgray]

15. Thanks, I'll check into it when they archive it

I was pretty pleased that there seemed to be no real draconian muzzling last night--unless the scarves and buttons were somehow very divisive and inflammatory, this doesn't make sense.

[tinanator]

17. If a peace sign is divisive

I know which side of the divide Im on. Its difficult to conceive of a belligerent peace button or scarf that wasnt designed by me. I know damn well I could do that :)

[derby378]

20. Are any DUers at the convention?

If so, would you intervene to keep those buttons and scarves from being confiscated?

[Zomby Woof]

26. see post #21

Ramsey is far more reliable as a source than, well, any of you who are NOT there.

[Kanary]

18. There's a big price to be paid for "unity"

But, we knew that.

Kanary

[deutsey]

19. Here's a quick summary just posted on the DN site:

"And as Gore and other high profile Democrats spoke, some delegates charge that their rights to free expression were being denied last night. Delegates for former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich alleged that they had some of their signs and placards confiscated, as well as scarves they wore that identified them as peace delegates. On the floor of the convention, as the speeches wrapped up last night we caught up with 2 Kucinich delegates from Minneapolis: Donna Cassutt and Charles Underwood."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/144247

As of this posting, they haven't provided an audio link yet.

[deutsey]

23. Actually, you can listen to the entire show

Go to http://www.democracynow.org/ and click on the link a the top of the page. As I wrote, I think this report is in the second hour.

[Ramsey]

21. I saw plenty of those scarves

I don't know what happened to these people from the story, but I saw plenty of people wearing the peace scarves (they were striking because they were bright pink), people in Kucinich T-shirts, and all other manner of peace buttons and clothing. I seriously doubt there was any systematic attempt to derobe people of their peace messages or Kucinich stuff.

I can tell you that the place is huge and rules seemingly made up by the person standing in front of you at that particular moment. I myself was subjected to one person telling me I could sit in a particular section, then another person coming along and telling me to move because I was in a reserved section. :shrug:

[thebigidea]

22. yeah, but your explanation makes too much sense!

[deutsey]

24. The delegate was also expressing frustration over being shut out

from the Democratic platform.

Is there a "peace plank"? (I'm assuming you're there at the convention and would know this better than me).

[Zomby Woof]

25. Thank you!

But you know the whiners and malcontents will purposely be obtuse and ignore your eyewitness account, instead going for melodramatic martyrdom and victimization.

They were awfully quiet on here last night, but no surprise seeing rumor-mongering and paranoia so early this morning.

[Name removed]

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[Zomby Woof]

31. see post #21

Awreety awrighty.

[Name removed]

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[redqueen]

56. "Zomby has spoken.....as a true DK suporter I might add"

That is unfair and uncalled for.

[Name removed]

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[emulatorloo]

29. Thanks for an eye-witness report n/t

[supernova]

30. This makes the most sense.

Thank you Ramsey.

When you consider that Kerry would have no reason to alienate Kucinich delegates it completely falls apart.

[tinanator]

37. you seem to be disregarding recent history altogether

they have done nothing but alienate and silence Kucinich/peace oriented Democrats in the last few weeks. Kucinich's endorsement was perfunctory, not persuasive. Good luck with the conservative wing.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[TeacherCreature]

51. Now DK supporters at the convention are liars?

wow

[AntiCoup2K4]

54. Pot, meet kettle.

:eyes:

[supernova]

43. Good luck

with that "I'm going to feel alienated no matter what anybody does" attitude there.

For the record; I'm not conservative.

[Zomby Woof]

78. that's ok

I am not a real liberal or DK supporter because of what a few idiots may or may not have done at the convention, and I questioned how widespread this alleged behavior was.

I am also friends in real life with one of the WA state delegates. I'll get the straight scoop from her, and I am sure it will jibe more with Ramsey's or Pitt's than one single anecdote from a malcontent.

I've had enough from the whiners and pissants who have nothing better to do than stir the pot on DU because they never get their way.

[tinanator]

79. cry me a Rivers

Am I an argument for preemptive assassination??
I can only hope so.

[WilliamPitt]

33. I saw a lot of them, too

[Zomby Woof]

36. gasp!

ANOTHER credible eyewitness account. You're pissin' on their tinfoil martyrdom! :D

[Caution]

27. well considering I know someone who orks security at the Fleet Center

who said he had heard nothing whatsoever about this, I have a feeling it's most likely a crock of shit.

[redqueen]

35. I saw peace signs, peace buttons, and hot pink peace scarves on TV

so I think what may have happened to these two is probably an isolated incident.

Maybe they might have checked with someone before making allegations that it was 'enforcers', eh?

Naaaah... easier and more 'exciting' to incite division.

[G_j]

44. well

there are enough eye witness reports now right in this thread to demonstrate whatever they were talking about was an aberation of some kind. If somebody was trying to control these things then they failed miserably it seems, because people are saying they saw these things everywhere. :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

52. well I didnt see it on TV

I am gonna take Pitt and Ramsey at their word though. I'll draw my own conclusion when I get home but my opinion right now is that its an isolated incident as you say. People act like Kerry is directly responsible for this, the man may not be a peace candiate or even so much a dove but he has tolerance for those who wish for peace, after all he had the support of some house and senate doves after all. I hate the attempt to incite division and pin this on Kerry directly. Thanks Ramsey and Pitt for your eyewitness accounts.

[sheelz]

41. Off Topic...sorry

Is anybody having trouble connecting to AAR? Is there another site I can tap into? Thanks! :)

[supernova]

47. Did you try some of the radio station links

like WLIB and the Portland OR station?

edit: the individual stations tend to have less traffic than the AAR site so you might have better luck there.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Nomad669/AirAmerica.htm

[TeacherCreature]

53. I don't know if this was an isolated incident or not

Does that make it any more acceptable to anyone? I can't believe the number of post from jackbooted DU enforcers trying to shut anyone up who wonders what the hell is going on.

To me the Kerry enforcers showed up here at DU last summer (some of them pretending to support other candidates) and now we have this forced unity where everyone keeps saying "we have never been so unified". Screw that, I have never seen this party less unified. But I can accept the need to project that image to the nation. I don't see any reason for that here at DU. Let people express themselves for goodness sake or this ceases to be a message board. No one is campaigning against Kerry or suggesting we vote en mass for Nader. Stop being such a bunch of debate squelcher's.

Let's be honest. Some people here have drunk the Kool Aide and now we can't even criticize, for instance, the concentration camp like pen that is set up for protesters. I know that the party did not arrange for this, but they should speak up publicly against it. You all know damn well that had these pens been set up for bush protesters you all would be screaming bloody murder. I don't care if they are penning up the descendants of Hitler...it is inexcusable in this country for there to designated free speech zones which look like internment camps and I am glad that protesters have refused to go into that space except to do street theater.

Some days this place seems more like Orwellian underground than Democratic underground and I DO NOT blame the administrators for that. I blame the people so afraid of democracy breaking out in the Democratic Party that they have to shut up anyone who disagrees.

I know the third party folks can be a pain in the ass always looking for some way to complain about the democratic party. However those people at the convention are not Nader delegates, they aren't there supporting Cobb, they are there representing the wishes of DEMOCRATS who voted for their choice of DEMOCRATIC PARTY CANDIDATES. If even a few of them were treated the way they stated then we should all be calling on the party to stop the nonsense.

[redqueen]

55. "I have never seen this party less unified"

Really? Is that a fact?

Sorry... I couldn't finish reading your post after that.

I was insulted by this assertion, "the Kerry enforcers showed up here at DU last summer (some of them pretending to support other candidates)"

I don't know what your agenda is but I'll tell you it's not helpful.

Whatever happened to the people complaining to anyone who will listen was obviously an isolated incident. And YES, that does make a difference. It probably was some officious self-important person who did that to them, obviously not any part of a coordinated campaign to shut peace activists out or up.

But not only did they fail to exercice good judgement by going to the press and making these charges as if it IS some kind of widespread intimidation campaign... we also have people on this board enthusiastically jumping on the bandwagon, and trying to split people here on DU over the subject.

Sorry...not biting.

I'm for Kucinich.

I'm for Peace.

I support Kerry.

I have my priorities. You are welcome to yours.


on edit: I went back and read it... LOL... have to make a few comments!

"You all know damn well that had these pens been set up for bush protesters you all would be screaming bloody murder."

Are you kidding? They ARE set up for Bush protesters, and we DO scream about it. :eyes:

"I blame the people so afraid of democracy breaking out in the Democratic Party that they have to shut up anyone who disagrees."

So asking people to be reasonable about how they address their greivances (as in checking with the campaign/ DNC before alleging that it's a widespread campaign to shut them up, which is obviously untrue), is 'shutting them up'? :eyes:

This is just laughable.

[JohnKleeb]

57. Kerry enforcers? reminds me of when people

are called Kerrybots. Yeah I am a bot because I like my candiate and a lot of what he stands for. The truth of the matter is, I know a lot of the original Kerry supporters very well, and a great deal of them have respect for Kucinich. The party has been less unified in past, shame that some are trying to stir problems. I guess you could call me a Kerry enforcer heh, I like and admire the man a ton, and am willing to defend him against attacks. Yeah I am terrible arent I?

[CWebster]

58. Courageous post of a true progressive

We have cages for people like you. You better watch it.

Amazing how many of these self-proclaimed promoter of peace, who opposed the Iraq war and the stain it is on our country's standing in the world, now join the pep rally for the candidate who markets himself as a champion of militarism.

If you must support Kerry, the least you could do, if you are more inclined to align yourselves with the views of Kucinich, is to not crow about it.

This account was broadcast on Democracy Now on Pacifica--a genuine progressive institution. Is it now called into question by those who are so gushing in supporting centrist sell-outs, that they would trash all they claim to uphold?

[redqueen]

60. In case you haven't noticed

the right is busy trying to divide the vote of the left.

It almost worked in France. Nader is still busy helping them here.

Are you not in agreement that at the present time, swing voters will decide the election?

Do you not realize that Kerry's 'championing of militarisim' as you so eloquently put it is necessary to win the votes of those swing voters?

I am not 'crowing' about my support of Kerry. I was insulted at that poster's insinuation that some supporters of Kucinich weren't really supporters of Kucinich. That is an insult and one I will not take lying down.

I don't care WHERE it was broadcast from. The FACT is that anyone with two eyes and a teevee set knows it was an idiotic claim to make, if in fact they claimed that this was some systemic attempt to shut them down.

But some will not be happy with Nader's attempts and feel they must supplement them, I suppose.

I am not trashing 'all I claim to uphold'... what do you mean by that?

[CWebster]

62. Looks like you got all the talking points down

Who do you align yourself with more? Nader or Kerry? My guess would be Nader, since you were a Kucinich supporter. Yet, you don't seem to question why it is that you've joined the goose-stepping march to attack and blame Nader, while embracing a centrist whose domination of the party does not allow for dissent or even discussion of the true state of affairs. My god, this invasion of Iraq is a crime that should be tried in an international court, not something that we shouldn't mention. The majority of delegates were against the war---for that matter, the majority of Americans now think it was a mistake, but we are herded into uniting behind a candidate who can't even represent that reality? Who is not united with who? If you must support Kerry in the spirit of ABB, or allegiance to your master, don't deceive yourself that the "unity" goes any further than that.

Ahh, the elusive and unprincipled swing voters, who we are all asked to sacrifice everything we stand for to court, but, but, but, if the election pivots on the caprices of the swing voter, than why is it that progressives who support third party candidates threaten the election? Wouldn't the election pivot on them? They might be able to rally support under the ABB banner, but if they continue to pander to the centrist swing voter, the base is likely to swing right out of the party. How long can they keep the base in a cage?

[redqueen]

63. Nader

But I'm not naieve enough to believe we can make any progress by dividing our votes. I don't need to 'question' why I've joined the SANE march to attack Nader for hooking up with his pimps in the GOP.

I'm ebracing our choice. He is the candidate, and yes, I embrace him completely. Our differences are not as vast as our similarities. It seems to be an easy decision to me.

I see the swing voters and say it is something we shouldn't mention. It is something that needs to be addressed in the fullness of time, not less than four months from the most important election of my lifetime.

I'm not deceiving myself about anything. I'm accepting the reailty of the American electorate. And nice characterization of supporting Kerry as 'allegiance to your master'. What's your agenda? Those that are opposed to war know the score, thanks. You're not privy to any inside information that the rest of us need to be clued in to.

As for your analysis of how to run a campaign, it's moot. The candidate is chosen. You can choose to support him (and that means support, not backhanded compliments and backbiting at those who promote party unity - no matter what you think of it), or not.

In my personal opinion, this is not the time for such analyses.

[supernova]

64. Ha Ha. Criticize Kerry all you want

Here's a piece of advice:

I don't know what went on last night with people who got hassled. BUT you'll have to show me more than one anecdotal story from more than one source to say it's some sort of Kerry shut-down of DK supporters. :eyes: Using this story weakens your argument, not bolsters it.

And I want an apology for calling me or other DUers jackbooted DU enforcers. By all rights I should alert on that.

Supernova
Founding Member
North Carolina Progressive Caucus

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. Incredible.

[progressivebydesign]

59. I really don't believe this..

I watched the convention, gavel to gavel last night.. there were ALL types of scarves, t-shirts, buttons, hats.. with ALL types of messages. The ABB people did not have their stuff removed.. prove that this is true.

[redqueen]

61. This is the new plan.

Nader wasn't as effective as expected.

:evilfrown:

[Caution]

66. Gee I see an awful lot of Peace scarves.

I'm watching C-Span at 6:48PM Eastern and not only are they NOT confiscating the pink peace scarves but someone is walking around giving them out.

[NoPasaran]

69. I saw that too and there were plenty of takers

Some people just aren't happy unless they have something to be unhappy about, it seems.

[JohnKleeb]

70. so this was in fact much ado about nothing

yeah the DNC is so terrible to the progressive wing of the party, I admit the DNC aint perfect but they have speakers who reach out to all wings of the party planned.

[Sugarbleus]

75. Whew!! Thank Goodness.... this thread had me worried...it

was starting to burst my bubble. Geez, we just had PP&M singing old time Peace songs for heaven's sake. Brought a tear to these old eyes... 'How many years.......'

I love DK, I hope this thing with the Peace sybolism gets worked out. I wear them all the time (old :hippie: here) but I wouldn't get riled over it and ruin this convention/this election that we so desperately need.

(Okay, where's the peace icons/smiles in DU?) lol

PEACE

[theoceansnerves]

67. ah lovely

another chance for duers to come out of the woodwork and bash dennis kucinich and his supporters. i'm shocked!

[JohnKleeb]

68. actually I didnt bash Kucinich at all, and many people who were calling

this a lie were stauch DK supporters. It seems to me from what I see above that peace scarves were aloud contrary to the belief of some.

[theoceansnerves]

71. heh i didn't mean to imply singling you out

wasn't blaming you :>
just seemed some people were saying these malcontents were indicative of all dk supporters. which of course they aren't :>

[JohnKleeb]

72. I know that but it seems to me that it was much ado about nothing

[Kanary]

74. ah, to hell with it

bash away

[John_H]

73. Damn!!!This will get at least 1000 votes for bush via Nader!!!!!!!

To get more votes for chimp, we'll have to get Democracy Now to do another election day interview with Clinton.