The reason for crime and the reason why we are not a society. x(

[Deja Q]

People don't get what they deserve and therefore decide to act out their frustrations in vigilante form.

If our society was geared toward people helping people, rather than people helping themselves (particularly at the expense of others), we'd see a LOT less crime.

Yes, peoples' basic needs should be met. And I'm disgusted with people who say "What will they do then, sit home and watch Maury all day?" In a society, we learn to do things to help out society and each other. So if we help others, we will get our basic needs and more in return. Those who don't want to participate get nothing.

Yet our society goes out of its way to allow people to stomp on other people. It allows people to suffer and die. It allows people to not be able to contribute. It is a society of greed and selfishness and corruption.

Give me a society where people form constructive relationships with each other, or go jump in a lake. I'm tired of being exploited. Are you?

Where am I wrong? Where am I right? I think a proper discussion of this would be worthwhile. But that's just me.

[reprobate]

1. HT, you speak like a socialist. And I agree.

Well over a year ago I posted a rant about how I thought it's time that our society changed its paradym to cooperation instead of competition. I got flamed crispy for that. But today it seems more and more people are coming to the conclusion that competition is a zero sum game, like capitalism. In order for me to win, you must lose. That's not a basis for an advancing society.

As it becomes known by the larger population that the corporations are literaly killing us with polution, incredibally expensive health care, and global warming, I'm hoping that we will see a turn around and a demand for a nation that has the welfare of the people in mind, not the welfare of corporations.

But don't get me started. I'm liable to rant all day.

Like removing the theory of 'personhood' from corporations.
Like requiring all stock in corporations to be owned by employees.

ETC,.

[Deja Q]

2. I am more than just a Socialist. I am a Realist and an Observer.

I'm also egocentric, but I'll leave that post for the lounge. :-)

Thank you for responding. It's nice to know not all on DU have me on their 'ignore' list or the far more nauseating idea that I'm supposedly posting thousands of Lounge threads in order to pass myself off as being legit before making a big anti-liberal post. :eyes:

I'm sorry you got flamed. The flamers are either wilfully blind or unevolved, it's as simple as that. I don't like having to say it and they can flame me until I look like a Burger King hamburger patty for all they care, for they are still wrong. (For example: I work hard. I work smart. I work my arse off. I get a raw deal in return. This is how America is, I've observed from both my personal perspective and those of others around me over the course of my adult life. And I'm tired of it and I bet many other people are as well. And we need to win what is right. Those in power have raped this planet and its peoples for far too long and it's got to stop.)

Freedom of speech does not make people put themselves above everybody else and create an inequitable situation. Money and those who control it do. And if peoples' minds are too narrow to accept it, that's not my fault. :-( Even the Bible states that money is the root of all evil.

[DemBones DemBones]

3. You sound like

Dennis Kucinich, talking about observing people he worked with when he was still very young, realizing that those people worked hard and they still weren't getting ahead, realizing that there was a problem with the system, that the system was rigged against the people.

A change is needed, that's for sure. Contrary to what some think, we baby boomers have not all done better than our parents, and our grown children are worse off than we were at their age. Do you read the Village Voice? They've had some good articles about how so many younger Americans (what I guess are called Gen X and Gen Y by the trendy folks) are in debt for college, can't get a job that pays very well, don't have health insurance as a job benefit and can't afford to buy it. And that's just considering the Americans who are basically middle class, not the ones who at times have no place to live, no income, no food.

One correction: the Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. An important distinction!

[Karenina]

15. Crabs in a basket

in a reptile pit.

That Reagan 'ME' meme did incalculable harm to Americans' value of the "common good." It drove the stake of consumerism through its heart. Great Society be damned! I also LOVE the apoplectic fits whenever the word socialism comes up. :freak: Now someone can 'splain to me why all the citizens of a country having basic healthcare is a bad thing. :eyes:

Everyone in a functioning society has to get the basic stuff. That's a win-win. For the life of me I don't grok how so many are obsessed with the win-lose/zero sum paradigm. "He who dies with the most toys wins." Errraaa... wins what? :shrug: It's so OBVIOUSLY destructive. American consumption should be defined in DSM.

Found this on http://thespleen.com/ long time ago.

Confronting Consumption
by joshua stearns
arlington, va
2002-09-02


The World Summit on Sustainable Development opens in Johannesburg, South Africa this week. This meeting of the world's ministers of environment and development is sponsored by the United Nations and is being billed as "Rio + 10," a reference to the first UN world summit on the environment in Rio de Janeiro held ten years ago. The summit lasts for nearly two weeks, during which time attendees will attempt to sign agreements of various kinds pledging to do more to protect the environment and promote improved living conditions for the impoverished around the world. No one expects anything dramatic from the summit, especially since the United States has made it clear that it will refuse to contribute substantially to any document with real force. President Bush has already decided not to attend the summit, nor will any other high level government officials, save for a token appearance by Secretary of State Colin Powell the last two days.

The Truth
The main reason is the inability of world policy makers to address the true root of international poverty and planetary degradation - consumption.

<snip>

The political economy is driven, blindly so, in its promotion of ever increasing rates of consumption. Much of what the diplomats in South Africa will be discussing this week, for example, will no doubt center around increasing trade, increased access to capital markets, privatization and other market-driven topics. Most of the popularly reported economic data in this country centers around counting how much money is being spent in a given period of time - the GDP, for example, or total consumer spending. News reporters smile when consumption is up and get that concerned, sincere look on their face when consumption is down. A large portion of US diplomatic efforts every year are devoted to opening new markets for US "goods;" these efforts often result in the unseemly adjustment of our otherwise "firmly held" opposition to things like dictatorships, military juntas, and human rights abuses. Even when faced with overwhelming negative consequences from a given consumption pattern (say the burning of fossil fuels in order to produce electricity), our society's answer has typically involved more consumption - build and install scrubbers to remove the poisonous sulfur oxides from smokestack emissions that result from burning coal.


The twentieth century resulted in the perfection of consumption messages. Advertising, the media and popular entertainment have combined to dramatically raise popular expectations of what each of us needs in order to live. The invention of first the radio, then television, billboards and, most recently, the Internet have created virtually unlimited opportunities to promote consumption. Market research and corporate-directed scientific research have allowed an ever increasing variety of products, sold in a way as to inspire amazement that people ever got along without them. Subtly, the messages have even managed to implant the expectation of ever increasing variety - that we, as consumers, somehow deserve the multitude of products available to us and should be petulant and impatient should choice ever diminish.

Increased consumption has brought with it increased environmental devastation. Everyone is familiar with the solid waste crisis - we are generating more waste every year and soon all of our landfills will be full. This story has been easily packaged and sold, resulting in the standardization of recycling activity, much of which results in still more consumption of energy and goods in order to clean and reconstitute the plastic, glass and aluminum that has been thrown away. But the contamination of soil, water and air that results from trash is just one part of the environmental destruction that results from excessive consumption...

[merh]

16. The Bible states that it is the love of money that is evil....

I do agree with you and cannot (nor would I) flame you for expressing your desire that cooperation replace competition. I am tired of the lack of caring. I am tired of being in the compete mode all the time and, like you, I am tired of working my arse off to just get by.

Thank you for your post!

[Kanary]

6. And, that's the key......... it *won't* change until

the middle class are suffering the same way the poor do now.

We've lost most of our ability to care about anyone except ourselves, and those exactly like us.

The ones lost in this will be forever forgotten.

Kanary

[K-W]

4. Crime is a symptom. You need to cure the causes, not fight the symptom.

[Deja Q]

11. And our country prefers to fight the symptoms. (warning, scary hyperbole)

Instead it only exacerbates the problem and that creates more conditions for people to become criminals because it's more profitable to do so.

Last I recall, there's been a rise in the number of privatized prisons...

[merh]

17. Thars money in them thar private prisons.....

The GOP motto is Divide and Privatize. If it can make money, then they privatize it and we tax payers eat the costs and they cash in on the profits.

[camero]

5. Thanks for this Hypnotoad

Two things come to mind.

First, how our capitalistic system has detached wealth from productivity and mostly sits in the hands of a fuedal class much in the way it did with monarchies before the French Revolution.

This link shows where it's coming from: http://www.divinerightofcapital.com/op-ed.htm

Second, a great post a few days ago that I read which stated that when you have a society of individualists you only wind up with a society full of barbarians, which is what the US has become, sadly.

[Kanary]

7. And what's *really* funny is those "individualists" do a great

sheep imitation.

:hi:

Kanary

[camero]

14. That they do

Chasing the golden calf still hasn't gone out of style.

[Deja Q]

10. And thanks for your reply!...

Great link!

I'll see if I can find that post as well...

However, apart from blindly believing in the LIHOP chimp*, people were not barbarians after 9/11. The people weren't. Corporations were quick to exploit 9/11 with stupid worthless $20 trinkets made from steel of the fallen structure. "Charities" like the United Way only helped to ncontrovertibly prove how uncivilized our society is. and the politicians, particularly those who allowed it to happen, kept pushing the blame everywhere else when not using 9/11 as a means to further themselves... :-(

[camero]

13. You're right in that respect

What I meant by that is how crime has increased and not decreased with increased poverty of the masses. Corporate crime is astoundingly widespread of which said corporations are run by human beings who exploit others to gain wealth and power.

The middle classes are still largely willing to step over others to promote themselves, an immoral act in itself.

Like you said, it's the love of money that is the root of all evil. {emphasis mine}

[Deja Q]

19. And * thinks America is good and th 'terrorists' are evil

Didn't we know what they were like when we helped them to fight against the Commies who were trying to invade their lands at the time?

Hmmm, secret energy meetings, our need of their oil... they want their lands to themselves, perhaps...? And see us as much of a threat as Russia was.

We gave ourselves 9/11. Reagan MIHOP. * LIHOP.

[Snoggera]

8. I used to think

that all the little gangsters should have a war to fight, rather than the "turf" wars, but now don't know. It doesn't seem to have helped. From what I've read, crime and imprisonment are both up in this fascist society even with a war on.

I'm tired of anyone being exploited for any reason.

[Kanary]

9. Of course those statistics are up.

Violence begets violence.

Study after study has shown that.

Kanary

[Misinformed01]

12. You're in good company. Plenty of noteworthy folks have begged for...

...a more compassionate economic system. Like Albert E. and J. London, there are so many people who seek cooperation over competition.

On a more contemporary note Michael Albert is a proponant of Participatory Economics, and interesting take on what work really means, what the relationships really are.

You're not alone.

PS~ Crap! This is Jan Michael, not Stephanie, I forgot to log her out...

[Tsiyu]

18. In a Small Town, you learn

to forgive and put aside differences to work together. It's not always as rudimentary as that sounds.

With a smaller population, you are going to see the same people over and over. And you are going to have disagreements with those people. If everyone carries a grudge or a wish to harm or detract from another, no one goes anywhere.

In large urban areas, people have a more anonymous image if they don't build community. Issues are decided far away from the input of the majority, often in secret and for a few folks' self-interest.

We don't pay attention to laws that are made unless they impact us personally. We are too big to care, I think.

[Deja Q]

20. kick

:kick: