David Brooks: "Howard Dean was a Liberal for about 6 months"

[dumpster_baby]

While listening to PBS's NewsHour with Shields and Brooks, the subject of all the "true" liberals speaking at the convention tonight was brought up. Brooks listed several "liberals" speaking tonight, and McNeil (or is it Lehrer?) said, "And Howard Dean?" Then Brooks replied, laughing, "Well, Howard Dean was a Liberal for about 6 months. I think he has gone back now....". McNeil smiled in agreement.

Even Dean himself found it humorous that so many of his own supporters thought he was a liberal.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Brooks is right!

Dean was a DLC Centerist during his tenure as Governor.

[w4rma]

2. What Gov. Dean did was fight. (nt)

[kaitykaity]

4. Amen.

That's why I love him. (Yeah, I still love him. I'll
be in front of the TV with popcorn to hear him talk
tonite.)

[K-W]

3. Dean has shifted, which doenst really matter at all.

He is saying the right things now.

[Pastiche423]

25. Dean was always saying the right things

You just weren't listening.

[K-W]

28. He was more centrist in vermont than in the primary and since

good lord people, im not demeaning him, we all shift and move as time goes by this isnt an insult for goodness sake.

[TeacherCreature]

55. bull

we don't think you are demeaning him we think you are confused.

[K-W]

62. Confused about what?

He ran a campaign to appeal to the left of the establishment dems. How on earth can you argue against this. I am amazed that a single person doesnt see that.

[TeacherCreature]

54. He is exactly who he always was...why is this so confusing to everyone?

?

[Beaverhausen]

5. yeah, that hilarious pro-choice, pro-environment, pro-union stance of his

was really funny!

Get over it. Why are you worrying about what David Brooks says?

[Bombtrack]

90. Pro-Environment? Yeah, selling out Vermont to IBM's de-regulatory wishes

is really consistent with that. And as if anyone in statewide or natioanl ever says he's not pro-union. I here he's pro-kittens as well.

[mzmolly]

6. Allow me to clear this up for you. Dean's supporters didn't box him into

ANY category.

In fact, he was called *a fighting centrist* by those that knew him.

The so called "liberal" media and the right wing, labeled Dean a "radical liberal"

My Brooks if your listening: Understood? ;)

[madfloridian]

10. And DUers did as well.

He spoke up and spoke out on injustices like this war, and they labeled him a liberal. Nothing wrong with that, but they used it to slur him.

[mzmolly]

12. DU-ers did, but we supporters always KNEW Dean, didn't we?

;) Dean is a leader, leaders can't be categorized. I always used to say "Dean is a reasonable" plain and simple. :hi:

[Uzybone]

47. well I never called him a liberal

because I knew he was not. I dont recall DUers slamming Dean for being a liberal. That is revisionist history.

[TeacherCreature]

57. no it is accurate

They said he was fringe and could not be elected.

[madfloridian]

63. We have been treated like left wing fools since last year.

Constantly.

[AP]

17. The media desperately wanted the election to focus on one issue: war

They had two choices at first: Kucinich and Dean (ok, Sharpton too).

If Dean hadn't been in the race, I doubt they would have promoted Kucinich, because he talked about too many other things that would have hurt Bush.

Dean was the safe choice. They could lift him to the top without having to worry about him suddenly talking about the tax code or corporate welfare in a way that would take hold of people's immaginations.

Clark came along, and they had another choice, and Clark did compete with Dean for first place in the polls until voters started hearing all the candidates arguments, unmediated by the press.

The bottom line is that the whore press wanted this election to be over the issue of war because the Republicans have an advantage over Democrats when people vote on the issue of the war.

[dumpster_baby]

39. interesting comment, AP!

We know that some of the press were out to axe DK--witness the Matt Taibbi interview that QUOTED them saying just that!

[unfrigginreal]

86. Biggest. Bunch. Of. Bullshit. Ever.

[AP]

99. truth hurts?

[Book Lover]

7. David, join the Democratic party and

then I'll listen to your bullshit.

BTW, it's Jim Lehrer.

[mandyky]

8. Dean never claimed to be a liberal

That was the label the media tried to "smear" him with. His supporters supported him because he spoke his mind, and listened to folks and then spoke their minds too..

[K-W]

11. Thats not true, he ran to the left, clearly he did it on purpose

because he wouldnt have gotten through on the center, but it seems hes taken it to heart, which I respect greatly.

[mzmolly]

15. No your mistaken. Dean said if "balanced budgets make me a liberal"

so be it.

He ran as an honest man who opposed this administration with all he had. Nothing more/nothing less.

And, by the way.. I consider myself liberal, so I haven't a problem with the description.

[madfloridian]

20. No, he did not.

He ran for the truth. He never ran to the left, he was defined as such. There is nothing wrong with being on the left, but it is terrible how the media and other Democrats defined him.

[unfrigginreal]

21. I don't think so.

He ran as someone hoping to change the direction the country was heading in. He still believes in balanced budgets and states rights for gun laws, hardly positions of the left. His biggest attraction to many of us was his fight against the pugs and his call for the party to stand up for itself.

[K-W]

23. Fine delude yourselves guys. But this is basic politics.

Dean wasnt going to get established party support, so he ran as an oustider and attracted more liberal voters that way. It was a calculated campaign move, I dont think it was wrong or bad, but it was pretty obvious and I dont see how you couldnt have seen that.

[unfrigginreal]

31. Running as an outsider does not mean that he ran as a liberal.

Of course he ran as an outsider but how's that relative to your point that he ran to the left?

[K-W]

32. Oh come on!

I guess he just accidentally attracted liberal supporters and just happened to say things to keep them.

Why on earth are you disagreeing with this? Of course he wasnt as radical as the media painted him to be, but he shaped his message to attract the left, of course he did. He would have been stupid not to.

[unfrigginreal]

34. You find it surprising that liberals might be attracted to someone...

that showed some backbone? You must not realize how hungry liberals are to use any vehicle to stop the rightward push in this country.

[K-W]

35. When did I say that?

He had a more liberal message than the more centrist dems in the race. Im not calling him a whakko. Try reading my posts, not assuming im a straw man.

[unfrigginreal]

41. No, he had a more centrist message than the conservatives in the race.

I didn't say that you were calling him a "whakko", just that you're misrepresenting him.

[K-W]

43. So now you agree with me?

Im sorry that you like to pretend the current political center is somewhere other than it really is, but regardless, you just agreed with my point that he was further left than them, which is all ive said on this thread.

[unfrigginreal]

48. Huh?

You don't consider Lieberman a conservative? Sorry, but Holy Joe hardly fits the political center.

[K-W]

65. The center is not an ideology, it is a position in a spectrum.

The center moves with the political enviroment, you seem to think it sticks to some ideological movement. It sucks that America shifted right, but it did. Thus, the center shifted right.

[TeacherCreature]

70. wrong again

People who supported him knew he was a centrist on many issues. He changed us, we did not change him. He was/is that rare politician who brought people to his way of thinking. I didn't care that he was not as liberal as me on many issues because I found him to be someone who agreed with me on the issues that were most important to me. I trusted that he would listen on some other issues and I trusted his judgement and his integrity.

[K-W]

85. Even if he agreed with Kerry on everything but the war,

that would still make him more to the left than Kerry.

I honestly dont think you disagree with me, I just think you are confused by emotion because you think I am bashing your beloved Dean, which Im not.

[TeacherCreature]

61. wrong again KW

He ran as someone willing to speak the truth.

[K-W]

67. And I guess he ran as rainbows and sunshine too.

He crafted a political message, like all politicians to try and win a primary. Im sorry you think he is some kind of god.

[TeacherCreature]

71. I am sorry you have no idea of what you are talking about

when it comes to why people supported Dean or who he is. But by all means don't listen to those of us involved.

[K-W]

75. Try giving me actual points rather than telling me silly things like

he ran on the truth. Im a big fan of the truth. The truth is that our entire economic and social system is horribly and uneccessarily inequitable. I dont remember Dean running on that. The truth is that the drug war is a horrible unconstitutional farce, I dont remember Dean running on that. So dont tell me he ran on the truth and swear at me.

He maybe had more truth than some others, fine, but that doesnt make his words the words of truth.

He had a politically crafted message like ALL politicians. He didnt have the support that Kerry and Gephardt had from the establishment dems, so he chose to take what many saw was a risk. He made his message that of an oustider, which he wasnt, and used that image and an anti war stance to appeal to voters on the left.

Now what on earth are you talking about?

[Jax]

22. No. YOU are wrong.

Jax

[ulysses]

29. nope.

He appealed to the left, but made it clear during the primaries that he was not a liberal. This confounds to no end those who want to paint the left as ignorant and single-minded, but so it goes.

[K-W]

33. Wel of course he was liberal. But in the battle of words

he distanced himself from being painted as an extremist, which he wasnt. That doesnt change the fact that he shifted left to appeal to voters that his competitors werent.

[ulysses]

37. "of course he was liberal"

Not really, and even he denied that he was during the campaign. Ask blm or ZombyWoof or any of the other anti-Dean folks. They'll tell you how non-liberal Dean is, with a bullet.

[K-W]

38. Do you know what liberal means?

Im just wondering. Or do you get your word definitions from newt gingrich?

[ulysses]

40. I'm pretty sure I do,

having been one for 35 years. Perhaps you could offer your definition.

[K-W]

44. Then you should know that liberal is not the fringe left, but in fact,

covers the mainstream attitudes of most americans.

[ulysses]

51. actually, no.

I think that most folks are at least mildly liberal in their basic wants, but that a good chunk of that majority doesn't realize it. I do know that what gets called "liberal" now is, in reality, pretty centrist and that what gets called "fringe left" now is, in reality, liberal. Dean is, in fact, a centrist, but gets called a liberal.

[K-W]

59. youve got it backwards

The ideas that are considered centrist today were once liberal. Thanks to the democrats of the past, these ideals were instilled in our national culture.

Republicans have gotten the liberal to mean a type of person that doesnt really exist, to them it represents what they think democrats are, which is a fiction. Being a liberal just means basically that you think the interests of the wealthy should be balanced with the intrests of the many.

Now conservatives lie the people, claiming that they are doing just that, even though obviously they dont. But to believe in the liberal ideology, and speak the liberal ideology is to be centrist in politics today. Bush talks like a liberal most of the time, he just acts like a nut.

[ulysses]

68. ?

The ideas that are considered centrist today were once liberal.

Do you really mean to suggest that what was considered liberal once - welfare, perhaps? - is now mainstream centrist?

If so, do you have anything with which to back up such a claim? Here I thought the Democrats were moving rightward because the citizenry was doing the same, not because liberal ideas had become the norm...

[K-W]

73. you are confusing actions and words

The idea that we should take care of the poor is liberal. This is still supported by most americans.

The conservatives have convinced alot of people, not that the poor dont deserve help, but that welfare is inneffective, abused, bloated, expensive, hurts the economy, and raises taxes of the working class.

By lying, they have convinced people that welfare is not liberal, but stupid, and in doing so that the people who support it and call themselves liberals are really tax and spend liberals. Thus liberals are left wing nuts, and if you truely want rational solutions to poverty, you must vote republican. Republicans support a good economy and personal responsibility which they claim will lead to a better america.

Thus liberal became associated with a fictional picture of the democratic party. Then the democratic party ran from that image and the word associated with it, even though the image was a fake.

[ulysses]

77. answer the question.

It's not rocket science. Do you mean to suggest that what was once liberal is now mainstream?

[K-W]

81. Of course not.

He has always been a democratic politician. He has always been liberal in his ideology ( I mean really liberal, not conservative straw man liberal) He was a fairly mainstream democratic governer who moved his message to the left to capture votes outside of the democratic establishment because John Kerry and Dick Gephardt had those avenues locked up.

[JohnKleeb]

42. can we agree that Dean though personally a centrist did run to the left

I think thats true certainly, its why many leftist democrats supported Dean. Now while many of you Dean supporters may have known he was a centrist, the ones around town thought he was the most left candiate which certainly wasnt true.

[ulysses]

46. sounds fair to me.

I don't think many people thought Dean was a diehard, lifelong liberal. Still, he came with a strong message and, as Armstead put it back in the day, he *listened* to the left.

[JohnKleeb]

50. well you know what I mean

well no one thought he was the most liberal dem ever but I do recall some of the local dems not knowing there were other dems who had positions well to Dean's left on some issues. Not calling them stupid but if I wasnt so well read, I would have believed that Dean was the most liberal candiate out there, and most people arent always researching stuff like I am.

[K-W]

69. am I ugly or something, thats exactly what I said

why do you agree with him, but argue with me?

[ulysses]

72. I have no idea whether or not you're ugly

but you evidently have a reading comprehension issue.

Wel of course he was liberal.

Your words. Was he centrist or was he liberal?

[K-W]

79. I think ive covered this in the other post, but

He was of course a liberal. Almost all democrats are. He was also a centrist, almost all democrats are.

He was a centrist liberal democrat, who in crafting his message for the primary took a stance to the outside and left of the favorites in order to attract votes they could not.

[ulysses]

82. ok, now you're making no sense.

He was of course a liberal. Almost all democrats are. He was also a centrist, almost all democrats are.

He was a centrist liberal democrat

Sure, whatever. Get back to me.

[K-W]

87. Thats all ive said on this thread, nothing more n/t

[ulysses]

92. ok, then - centrist is liberal, liberal is centrist.

Finches are sparrows, verbs are nouns.

Hey, this is fun!

[K-W]

93. Fine, agree with the republicans for all I care

Go with thier definition of liberal. I prefer to go with the real definition born of the new deal.

[JohnKleeb]

96. I pmed you

[ulysses]

104. sarcasm escapes you, doesn't it?

Too bad.

[JohnKleeb]

89. you basically said what I said but not exactly

Dean isnt a liberal, hes a centrist, he ran as a leftist though. If that was your point, you have it right.

[TeacherCreature]

76. if other people didn't know who Dean was it wasn't because he ran

to the left. It was he opposed the war. Surely it is possible to oppose a useless immoral war without being a lefty?

[TeacherCreature]

78. LOL, asking Uly if he knows what liberal means.............

:7

[K-W]

83. lol at what? do you know what it means, im seeing some real confusion here

Alot of you seem to have adopted Newt Gingrichs definition, or at least taken it into account.

[TeacherCreature]

94. what confusion do you see?

I am not confused you are. You think if liberal support a candidate it must be because he pretended to be a liberal or shifted his position or something. You are clueless as to why we supported him but you are going to continue to argue about it with those of us who know what we are talking about.
You seem to be caught in a hopelessly antiquated left/right dichotomy. You seem to be lost without your boxes.
So.........

Karl Marx <---->Ted Kennedy<-->me<----->Dean<----->todays Kerry<-----moderate republicans<------> bush

Now depending on the issues, everybody right of Kennedy and left of bush might easily change places. You really have to give up your old memes.

[K-W]

97. Do you even read my posts?

When on earth did I say that liberals only support candidates that shift thier positions. Ive never said anything remotely like that. You have fabricated that yourself.

I said that Dean crafted his message for the primary to appeal to the left because he knew that if he just followed the 'safe' trend of Kerry and Gephardt, he would get steamrolled by them. So he talked strong and adversarial of the establishment dems and went staunchly anti-war. This did what it was designed to do and attracted people who felt that the establishment democrats were too conservative.

Now where do you disagree with me?

[JohnKleeb]

100. I think you got it

It was a campaign choice, its not his personal politics or anything, thats why my belief is that Dean is a centrist but ran as a leftist. If Dean had ran conventually I think, he wouldnt have made an impact or at least not as big, thats my observation, you can disagree or agree with me.

[TeacherCreature]

74. Thank you Uly

I appreciate that at least one non Dean supporter understands that point.

[ulysses]

80. actually, I did support Dean.

:) When he ditched the campaign before the Georgia primary, I voted for Kucinich.

[TeacherCreature]

95. OIC, I think I must have forgotten

Even better. I voted for him here in Pa anyway.

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. The official biography on his website called him a moderate

A common-sense moderate who firmly believes that social justice can only be accomplished through strong financial management, Governor Dean has cut the income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the state's long-term debt. Not only did the governor pay off an inherited $70 million deficit, he worked with lawmakers to build "rainy day" reserves to help the state through any future economic downturn.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030523191947/www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_biography

[TeacherCreature]

88. and delivered almost universal healthcare, reduced child abuse and

provided jobs at better than the national average, signed gay union legislation (and wore a bullet proof vest while he went around the state trying to explain it to people)and made sure that rich people paid their fair share of propterty taxes. My kind of centrist.

[TeacherCreature]

58. you are wrong

He did not run to the left. He ran left on some issues and centrist on others...just as he had governed VT.

[K-W]

91. Erm, left on some issues is in fact still to the left

What are you talking about?

[TeacherCreature]

98. he didn't change for the campaign and hasn't changed since

WTF is so hard to understand about someone who is liberal on some issues and centrist on others?

[K-W]

102. To believe that any politician hasnt changed his message

is silly, im having a hard time figuring out how to respond to you, cause I just dont know where you got this from. He decided to run for the democratic ticket and got all his advisors together and said "how do I pull this off" they targetted people alienated by the dlc democrats, progressives and ideological purists. He moved his message just to the left of the establishment dems but chose to hammer them on the war because he wanted to get the support of the anti war movement and it was in fact a much stronger position than the compromising democrats.

It worked, he looked strong and he looked refreshing and you liked it. Which is great, but he isnt some god, he isnt some pillar of ideals. He is a politician. So support him when he supports you. I will do the same, but dont think that he is you.

[unfrigginreal]

9. Dean's critics labeled him a liberal...not Dean or his supporters. nt

[AP]

13. Brooks is an asshole. He wrote an article about how only Episcopalians who

went to boarding school should be president, and he used Dean and Bush as his prime examples. It was in the New York Times.

It was one of the most repulsive, right wing, anti-democratic things I read about the primaries.

[JohnKleeb]

16. yes I remember that

But Dean isnt a Episcopalian either, hes a Congressionist but I believe Episcopolian was his original faith. Back to what Brooks said, I rememeber that and it was sick, it was basically that only Yankee WASPs are qualified for the white house, so grandsons of Czech Jewish immigrants, a southern methodist with a humbe background, the grandson of Polish, Croatian, and Irish immigrants, a son of Jewish immigrants, a black minister, a black lady senator, according to brooks are unfit to be president. I hate stuff like that. Not only is it anti democratic and right wing, its down right elitist too.

[AP]

19. I think his boarding school, St George's, is episcopalian...

...which is what Brooks was basing his argument on.

I would love to know how many people who read that felt the way you and I felt.

I would be so elated if that number were more than 50%.

[JohnKleeb]

30. yes St. George's is just that Episcopalian

I believe thats his original faith. Bunch of WASPY elitism by Brooks in my observation.

[JVS]

24. Congregationalist nt

[JohnKleeb]

27. I cant spell but thank you

[mandyky]

14. Dean is a progressive populist

Like David Brooks knows shit from shinola about Dean, Deaniacs, or Democrats in general!

[dumpster_baby]

45. Yes, and I am a Vulcan.

Dean is the farthest thing from a progresive populist this side of Tom Delay.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. Labels are just another form of namecalling.

OTOH, there is some validity to making comparisons like 'John Smith is more liberal than Jenny Jones because x, y, z...'

[Fleshdancer]

26. He was pegged as being a liberal because he was anti-Iraq war

Deaniacs, myself included, know he's not a hard core liberal. :eyes: Then again, anyone who takes a few minutes to do a little research can find this out...which is why the media failed to know this.

[NashVegas]

36. Fuck David Brooks - Just Watch Dean Tonight

You know what I find interesting?

The DNC is so quick to back up THK after "shove it" - and rightly so. And in so doing, they've pussyfied the media over it. Tonight the talk is all about what THK will say tonight, but not a word about Dean, who the DNC and press crucified over "yeaaaah."

What a wonderful world.

[AntiCoup2K4]

49. Maybe the reason that Dean was percieved as a "liberal"

is because, though a centrist, he's considerably left of what the neocon shitbag hijacked DLC has become :scared:

[Fleshdancer]

52. ding ding ding! we have a winner!!! n/t

[madfloridian]

66. They labeled him. DLC/PPI labeled him.

:hi:

[TeacherCreature]

53. his supporters knew who he was, it's the rest of you who were confused

We knew he was socially liberal and fiscally conservative (in the best way).

But again for the 10 millionth time. He was right about the issues we really cared about such as the war.

[Selwynn]

64. He was socially moderate and fiscally conservative, but yeah...

[Selwynn]

60. People loved dean because of his passion and his fight....

...I haven't found many of his supporters who were mislead into thinking he was a radical liberal. That wasn't the point for them.

I didn't support Dean because he wasn't liberal enough. But people who did support Dean do so becuase he spoke truth to power and had a passion and enthusiasm which made people believe and have hope again...

[bossfish]

84. and David Brooks was hanging off my ass...

for a few minutes.

Then I used some toilet tissue

[Tweed]

101. Brooks is 100% correct. DEAN IS DLC folks!

[TeacherCreature]

103. he is centrist on some issues so he must be DLC

I guess that is why he attacked them and they attached him.