Hey Mediawhores: How about reporting Bush's 2 lies in 1 sentence?!?!

[John_H]

http://cronus.com/images/Bush_lying_about_Vietnam.mp3

"The most important lesson I learned in Viet Nam is that you can't fight a guerrilla war with conventional forces."

G.W. Bush

1) He learned what where?

2) Apparently he didn't remember that lesson very well since he repeatedly makes the case that that his conventional invasion of Iraq was a great way to fight the guerrilla war waged by Al Queda.

Never mind. I'd really like to see another story about all those nights about all those nights Ken Lay spent in the Clinton's Lincoln Bedroom.

[SoFlaJet]

1. Whoa wait a minute thar Babalouie

when and where did he say THAT?My brother(a Vietnam hero) goes on a website called wannabes and they hound those who say they were Vietnam vets,and if he DID say that he too will be called out on it.He told me they MAKE the wannabes recant their lie.

[scarletwoman]

7. Do you know about THIS line from a few years back?

"I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war."
Houston Chronicle, January 2002

sw

[Mika]

9. W* is a mofo..

.. and as crazy as a bedbug. :crazy:

[MUSTANG_2004]

20. That's the one I don't understand

I think the Vietnam statement was just Bush mangling his syntax when trying to say that he learned it "from Vietnam". But the quote about having been to war is mind-boggling. How anyone who has such a public record of non-combat could say that is baffling.

[scarletwoman]

27. He's delusional -- lives in a fantasy world.

After all, he thinks he's been divinely chosen and that god talks to him. The guy has a pretty tenuous grasp on reality, imho.

sw

[G_j]

42. another funny one,

Bush on why the Air National Guard took him:
"They could sense I would be one of the great pilots of all time."
Houston Chronicle, August 1988

http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/01/ma_217_01.html

[liberalhistorian]

30. My favorite uncle is a Vietnam vet and he

deals with this shit all the time, men his age who claim they were in Vietnam when they most assuredly were not. I think that's one of the many reasons why he simply cannot stand Shrub. He's frankly not all that crazy about Kerry either, but he appreciates Kerry's service and the fact that he could have used his money and connections to get out of it but he didn't, and he respects him for that. My uncle was working class as were most of those he served with ahd he absolutely hates the smug rich fucks who get a kick out of the fact that they didn't have to get their hands dirty.

[jeff30997]

2. So now he went to Vietnam and he's...

A great military tacticians? That guy is nuts!:silly:

[LittleApple81]

3. I am sorry to say, but we did a search for that Bush sound bite some

weeks ago (there is a DU thread on that). That tape seems to have be doctored. I cannot do a search right now but it was a thread started by VetWife.

[Mika]

4. No. It was not doctored!!! I recorded it from CSPAN

You can hear it here,

http://cronus.com/images/Bush_lying_about_Vietnam.mp3
http://ourownmedia.com/copper/BushInVietnam.mp3
http://www.BringHonorBack.org/

[LittleApple81]

10. Please get in touch with VetWife. She was searching for something

that was vetted. Please e-mail or pm her.
Thanks.

[HFishbine]

28. Cspan

archives their shows. A link to the original CSPAN broadcast would be more legitimate.

[TryingToWarnYou]

33. CSPAN Link for you...

http://www.c-span.org/Search/advanced.asp?AdvancedQueryText=&StartDateMonth=10&StartDateYear=2001&ProgramEvent=&EndDateMonth=10&QueryTextOptions=&EndDateYear=2001&ProgramIssue=White+House%2FExecutive&Series=&QueryType=&Organizer=&ResultCount=50&SortBy=date&ResultStart=100&

Of course, now the story has changed and the speech was some "fundraiser" and not recorded off of the inconvieniently archived CSPAN.

Sounds fishy as a dock at low tide.

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. There's always one, isn't there...

Here's a transcript from The Indianapolis Star's web page: "President Bush answers questions from reporters as he holds a news conference in the East Room of the White House Thursday, Oct. 11, 2001 in Washington."

This was copied directly from their web site on 06/19/2003 and is verbatim as they printed it. The page notes that it was last altered on 10/11/2001, which was the day of the press conference.

"Pres. BUSH: We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that you cannot con--fight a guerilla war with conventional forces."

Note that the content is not the same as the audio, but ask yourself this, if you had the audio that matched the transcript (this is assuming the transcript is accurate), would you have needed to chop it up to make it say essentially the same thing?

And even if someone did chop it up a bit, it still conveys Bush's meaning the same, since the "lesson that he learned" was from Vietnam, and he had just included himself and placed himself there by using "We" and "in Vietnam" in the first instance.

So at worst, this is nothing more than an editor inserting a word for context when the reference is not included in the quotation, and at best, the transcript was scrubbed and the audio is correct.

Either way he said it and meant it.

[Disturbed]

6. Also...

He said that he had been to war and some goofy statement about rearing children. Shrub is an assinine, shallow, lying sociopath.

[scarletwoman]

8. See my post #7 above -- I've got the exact quote. (n/t)

[TryingToWarnYou]

12. Here is a link...

Now THIS is something he actually said...

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=I've_been_to_war.

[TryingToWarnYou]

13. You are supporting the dishonesty that we abhor

Cronuss wrote:

Note that the content is not the same as the audio, but ask yourself this, if you had the audio that matched the transcript (this is assuming the transcript is accurate), would you have needed to chop it up to make it say essentially the same thing?

And even if someone did chop it up a bit, it still conveys Bush's meaning the same, since the "lesson that he learned" was from Vietnam, and he had just included himself and placed himself there by using "We" and "in Vietnam" in the first instance.

So at worst, this is nothing more than an editor inserting a word for context when the reference is not included in the quotation, and at best, the transcript was scrubbed and the audio is correct.

Either way he said it and meant it.

Uh, with all due respect, when you move words around for "context", the original quotes lose their validity and the person moving the words around loses credibility. Bush never said what is claimed in the recording. Thats a lie and its patently dishonest. There is no "context" to put it in, it simply didnt happen. There is plenty to ding Bush on that really happened. Believe me, I would like nothing more than to have some rock solid quote to kick his ass with, but this one isnt it and if people continue to believe that he said what is alleged, they are going to look rather stupid after their opponent does 5 minutes of Googling. In the digital age, people tend to believe transcripts rather than a potential "montage" of audio that can be snipped and pasted together. Im sure someone could do an MP3 of Bush saying all kinds of things, but that doesnt make it true.

[John_H]

14. The way politicians-especially chimp--repeat things over and over

he could have easily said it the way it's transcribed above at one event and had it recorded in the form I posted at another event.

As far as the above fruitless "search" goes, how can any Duer possibly have access to recordings of every campaign speech chimp made in 2000nad every statement he's made as president*. The fact that nobody has found a recording of the whole speech doesn't mean shit.

DNC's Research Department ought to give their files a quick once over.

[TryingToWarnYou]

47. LOL! Speech found! You can't handle the truth...

Dont be scared...

CSPAN rocks.....

We arent discussing what might be, but what is. The MP3 claims one thing and the CSPAN video shows something altogether different. I wonder which one is correct /scarasm off.

It took me an hour to find it, but its been proven without question that the MP3 is a fraud. If you want to believe the lies and BS, great. Its a free country, but dont attack those of us that are willing to search for the truth.

[TryingToWarnYou]

11. I wouldnt use that MP3 for anything... it was manipulated.

If you listen to what he said in the MP3, and then compare it to known transcripts, you can see where the words were moved around. Im probably the biggest Bush hater here, but lets focus on real things the loser has said. This, unfortunately, is not one of them.

We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that you cannot con--fight a guerilla war with conventional forces."

All this is going to do is make us look like idiots to anyone that does even 5 minutes of research. Additionally, it could very well be set up for that very reason.

[John_H]

15. What are you talking about? Pls. see post 14 above.

So if I have a recording of him saying, "they hate us for our freedoms" and you have a transcript of him saying "we have our freedoms for which they hate us" the tape is doctored and the transcripts are correct? Doesn't make sense.

Also, do you have any evidence from the audio that it was doctored?

[TryingToWarnYou]

16. Twist it all you want, its still dishonest and not at all what he said.

The transcript is what Bush said. I wouldnt trust an MP3 pulled off the web from some dudes website considering how easy it is to manipulate the recordings. Any 12 yr. old with a PC can do it. When you compare what was on the recording to what was transcribed, its very different. Only one of them was correct.

Do you have evidence that the transcript was wrong?

Personally, I believe someone was either trying to be completely dishonest in their representation of what Bush said or they were trying to interject "context" where they believed it should go. Either way, its wrong.

[John_H]

17. Do you still not get it, or do you

just really hate it that chimp may be on record claiming to be in 'Nam?

You asked: "Do you have evidence that the transcript was wrong?"

C'mon, you understood my point, didn't you? I'm sure the transcript is right. I'm also sure Chimp repeats similar lines over and over, therefore the recordings and the transcript can be correct.

You never answered the question I posed, of course. Do you agree that, like all politicians, chimp repeats varients of the same lines over and over? If I have a recording of chimp saying one varient of his pat lines and you have a slightly different transcript does that mean I've doctored the recording? Since you're not a republican, you should have no problem being honest, especially if you're accusing others of dishonety.

I also have more bad news for you: Kerry's research people are aware of this quote, have transcripts of nearly every word chimp has said during his candidacy and presidency and is going to find out whether he claimed to be in viet nam or not. If they find it, you'll have to move to plan B, which is "he just made a verbal gaff. You know what he meant."

[TryingToWarnYou]

18. Whatever...

You said:

"just really hate it that chimp may be on record claiming to be in 'Nam?"

I would like nothing more for this to be the case, but it isnt.

You said:

"C'mon, you understood my point, didn't you? I'm sure the transcript is right. I'm also sure Chimp repeats similar lines over and over, therefore the recordings and the transcript can be correct."

This is bullshit. Either he said what you allege or he didnt. There isnt any of this "the recordings and the transcript can be correct" nonsense.

You said:

"You never answered the question I posed, of course. Do you agree that, like all politicians, chimp repeats varients of the same lines over and over?"

Of course he does. That doesnt mean that the recording is real and given that we have an actual transcript that has different wording is cause for concern as to the recordings authenticity IMO.

"If I have a recording of chimp saying one varient of his pat lines and you have a slightly different transcript does that mean I've doctored the recording? "

Slightly different? In this case the difference is like night and day. The pedigree of the recording is UNKNOWN. The transcript has many sources. Its entirely too easy to fudge recordings.

You said:

"Since you're not a republican, you should have no problem being honest, especially if you're accusing others of dishonety."

I am being honest. Send that MP3 to everyone but dont be surprised if you look like an idiot after someone spends 5 minutes on Google.

You said:

"I also have more bad news for you: Kerry's research people are aware of this quote, have transcripts of nearly every word chimp has said during his candidacy and presidency and is going to find out whether he claimed to be in viet nam or not. If they find it, you'll have to move to plan B, which is "he just made a verbal gaff. You know what he meant."

Ive never been an ass to anyone here and I would appreciate it if you would cut your attitude. While I believe Bush has said uncountable stupid things, I dont believe for one minute that this recording is authentic due to the transcripts that are available. If you want to believe otherwise thats great, its a free country and this is my opinion. Whats going to be "bad news" is if Kerry tries to use this as a political arguing point. Its going to look incredibly petty when there are much larger issues that need to be addressed while we have the nations attention.

Oh and if it turns out that he did indeed say it, I wont be surprised. He has already made one comment that he had "been to war" and we all know thats crap. You certainly wont see me backpeddling. I dont give a fuck who the person is, if what is claimed is true then fine, but if folks are making shit up just to further their cause, then thats not right.

[Mika]

19. Say what you want

But, I recorded those audio files myself - from CSPAN, sometime in May 2003.

Those hosted mp3 links are the exact mp3 file I sent them, which is an unedited mp3 conversion of a 16bit aiff (mac) audio file that I recorded.

I also sent the recording to the (IEAmerica) Mike Malloy Show and to the Guy James Show, both of whom play(ed) it.

Dr Mika

[TryingToWarnYou]

21. Then why are the transcripts all different from the recordings?

If it was on CSPAN, then there should be a transcript. I think they are pretty impartial. Wouldnt you agree?

What would CSPAN have to gain by "fudging" the transcript? What about others there that were present? What about DU or other left leaning message boards? I would expect them to have jumped all over that statement and I dont recall hearing thing one about it.

[TryingToWarnYou]

23. Here are a couple of sources from 2001 for the quotes..not 2003

"We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that you cannot fight a guerrilla war with conventional forces."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011011-7.html

"We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that you cannot fight a guerrilla war with conventional forces."

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/11/gen.bush.transcript/

"We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that you cannot fight a guerrilla war with conventional forces."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/specials/attacked/transcripts/bush_text101101.html

So, what we are expected to believe is that all of these sources just happened to get the "context" wrong either intentionally or deliberately and that the MP3 is the "real" comments?

[tkmorris]

24. Slow down mate

I have been camping on this forum since it's inception and I can tell you that I have repeatedly watched Bush say something on live television only to have the transcript when published say something completely different. Not only Bush , but he has been easily the most frequent beneficiary of such revisionism.

I really didn't realize that there were still people who doubted that these things happened but I suppose there are. By the way, the vast majority of web sources do not do the transcripts themselves, they copy and paste em from elsewhere. Once a "cleaned up" transcript is published it usually is mirrored all over the web, thus giving the impression that they all got it wrong, when in fact it is merely the original source that did so.

[TryingToWarnYou]

25. Trying to bring up CSPAN video archive.

The only way this issue will be resolved is if we have the entire audio or video to compare to.

[John_H]

35. LOL! They're all covering the same event.

[TryingToWarnYou]

46. Exactly..its the ONLY record of Bush saying those words

Which shows that the transcripts are as I have stated.

My link to CSPAN proved it.

Bottom line: If you cannot show where the statement came from, then you are SOL. I can, however, show exactly where the statement came from, complete with the same exact flubbed up speech in the same exact spots.

Go watch the tape from CSPAN..you will find the uncomfortable truth at about 11 minutes in.

Compare the verbal fuckups. The MP3 was doctored. End of story.

[Bandit]

44. Back to the original post... Bush* is a liar

He said the lesson learned was you can't fight guerrilla wars with conventional forces. It is obvious that the lesson was not learned. We are doing just that and not doing it well. As to whether he said we learned this lesson in Vietnam or from Vietnam is another verbal stumble IMHO. The main point is that he Lied because it is obvious he has never learned a thing either from Vietnam or otherwise.

[rastignac5]

22. It's obvious the tape is doctored n/t

[John_H]

36. LOL! Panic. Panic. Panic.

[TryingToWarnYou]

45. Heh, keep your head firmly in your rectum....

I would wager that you *still* havent bothered to go to the CSPAN site and hear the audio for yourself and then compared it to the fraudulent MP3.

The verbal gaffes are I D E N T I C A L. Its the same exact speech.

But, facts aside, dont let this stop you from making an ass of yourself. Tell ya what, go over to Freepville and post your MP3. See how long it is before the CSPAN link pops up for you and you look retarded. Whatever you do though, dont mention DU...you are on your own. Some of us saw through this baloney early on and its not fair to us that you refuse to do a little research. I spent an hour comparing the two recordings...Ive done my homework. You cant say the same so shut the hell up until you do.

[TryingToWarnYou]

26. THE RECORDING IS A FRAUD CSPAN LINK INSIDE

As I predicted, the MP3 is BS.

Here is a link to the actual Press Conference from October 11th, 2001

http://www.c-span.org/Search/advanced.asp?AdvancedQueryText=&StartDateMonth=10&StartDateYear=2001&ProgramEvent=&EndDateMonth=10&QueryTextOptions=&EndDateYear=2001&ProgramIssue=White+House%2FExecutive&Series=&QueryType=&Organizer=&ResultCount=50&SortBy=date&ResultStart=100&

Scroll down to

President Bush Evening News Conference
President George W. Bush holds a primetime news conference in the White House East Room
10/11/2001: WASHINGTON, DC: 45 min.

If you dont want to wait for it, FF to 11:00.

I would like to suggest that everyone thats passing around the MP3 or the link to it, stop doing it. NOW, there is definitave proof that its bullshit.

The WRITTEN transcripts previously posted are correct, the MP3 is not.

[TryingToWarnYou]

29. Kick

nt

[Mika]

31. That is not the press conference I recorded it from

I recorded it from a different speech - it wasn't in the WH.

It was at some repug fundraiser.

The mp3's posted are not doctored. I recorded it myself w/no edits whatsoever.

[TryingToWarnYou]

32. First you said you got it from CSPAN, now its a "fundraiser"...which is it

First you said you got it from CSPAN. Then, when I manage to find the speech on CSPAN, now its some obscure fundraiser (which, btw, guarantees that nobody will have an actual recording or video). Sounds like you are moving the goalposts.

Sorry, but Im not buying it..especially after seeing the video with my own two eyes. I suppose I could even go so far as to break down the audio from your MP3 and the CSPAN video, but thats a lot of work.

This MP3 is a dead end and the sooner we face that and get on to more important things, the better off everyone will be. I promise you, it will come back to haunt us otherwise.

[John_H]

34. This guy's in absolute panic mode.

which means we need to be all over this one.

[Mika]

37. Me?

I'm in no panic.

I really don't care. I just thought I should point out that I recorded the clip, and that I did not edit it in any way.

Otherwise? :shrug:

[TryingToWarnYou]

39. Meanwhile, "your" mp3 and the CSPAN recording have the same

exact verbal gaffes in the same exact places. I think you got duped.

[TryingToWarnYou]

38. This guy? Please...

What you need to be all over is the link for CSPAN where its the same fucking speech. Bush never said those words in the order they are in on the MP3. Its a lie. Its dishonest. And you are setting all of us up to look like morons...well, not all of us. Some of us have figured it out and taken the scientific approach of taking the files apart.

Listen to the speech from CSPAN. Then listen to the MP3. With the exception of the manipulated parts, the normal Bush verbal fuckups are identical to the MP3. Ive downloaded the audio from CSPAN and am comparing them. Are you?

I wonder if anyone will have the balls to apologize for the shitty comments being made to me over this. Fine. Dont believe me. But I dont want to see your posts where you are whining about getting your ass kicked in some forum somewhere when a Freep beats you over the head with the same CSPAN link.

This was no "fundraiser". This was the speech from CSPAN. Im appalled that so many here want to claim the honest high ground while at the same time wave this piece of crap MP3 around without doing any solid research. I expect this from the pugs, but not from the dems. Guess I got an eye opener huh?

[TryingToWarnYou]

40. Punt for the AM crowd

[HFishbine]

41. Thanks

I listend to the CSPAN file and Bush says: "We've learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that uh you cannot cuh fight a guerilla war with conventional forces."

The person with the MP3s says he recorded them off of CSPAN. If it was from another broadcast other than the one noted above, then he should provide a link to it.

Since the MP3 also contains the stutter "you cannot cuh fight..." It seems almost certain that the MP3 was indeed taken from the utternace linked to at CSPAN above and edited to indict Bush with something he did not say.

[TryingToWarnYou]

43. Also Hear the "cannot kin-fight" stumble? Present in both recordings...

Thanks for taking the time to check it out for yourself. If everyone would do that, this whole thing would be a non-issue.

[TryingToWarnYou]

48. Kick for the facts