well I hope at least someday we can get away from having to play Macho

[G_j]

as exciting as the energy and unity is right now, I have to admit I am also depressed deep down that it seems we have to do so much tough guy, macho posturing.

Oh I know, if we don't we'll be a bunch of girly-men.

just thinking out loud..

[Pastiche423]

1. That someday will only come

when and if the Democratic leadership decides to stand up for Democratic ideology.

Sadly, I do not see that happening in my lifetime.

[K-W]

2. That day will never come if you wait for it to come from a political party

What is being called for here is a massive change in the way people view themselves and each other in this country. Expecting that to come from a few people temporarily atop a party machine that they have very little actual control over and that can buck them at a moments notice is silly.

No one man, or one group, or even one organization can do this. It has to start with each and every one of us working on ourselves and working to get those around us to work on themselves. And instilling the right values in our children, and spreading the facts and ideas that we think will make this country better.

[G_j]

6. good post

perhaps it is a cultural thing I'm addressing, symbolized to some extent by the cultural icon(Rambo)in my original post. That 'kick butt' sort of posturing. I'm sure many of our young soldiers who grew up watching all those movies had a lot of illusions about 'strength" before they saw what war was really like.

On an international level, one thing I could never understand is why we always feel we need an army five times bigger than next largest five armies combined (or something like that)

why us?

just thinking out loud as I said

[punpirate]

12. Our military is not...

... five times the next five militaries combined--that's why we're already stretched too thin. One very good example--Iran, a country with 72 million people, has a military, included reserves and militia, of almost 900,000 men. We have 1.4 million, and many of those are spread out around the world.

What we do have, however, is a military budget far in excess of that of the next thirteen countries combined. We have come to equate expenditures with strength--part of the reason why we're now trapped in a guerilla war, once again.

Do I worry about the cultural aspects of militarism in this country--you bet I do--that's how Reagan, Bush I and Bush II came to power--and look what they did. The countries which have been best able to serve their citizens have been those with very modest budgets for arms and armies. We're now last on the list of industrialized countries for services to citizens because we're first with money for arms. We're the world's biggest debtor nation, in large part because we continue to spend as we have on the military.

We don't need this level of military spending to maintain security, or defense within our borders. (Did our spending prevent 9/11? I rest my case.)

The Democrats have been moving steadily to the right, a half-step behind the Republicans. They've lost elections because they can't out-patriot the Republicans--all the Republicans do is up the ante to the defense contractors.

It's damned scary, frankly. And, as long as the Republicans are willing to engage in fear-mongering amongst the public, and the Democrats are unable or unwilling to cut through that fog of misinformation, it will go on this way until we're broke.

Peace is profitable, but not to the big people owning arms stocks, and not to politicians dependent upon arms makers' contributions.

Cheers.

[G_j]

13. thank you

yes it was the military budget I was thinking of, a very important distinction.

Of course the reason for that is that somebody is making a ton of money. At Smedley Butler said, "War Is A Racket'

[izzie]

25. I think it is sort of like the gun thing.

The men that try to be so manly are usually the ones that are so weak. I think it is scary to these men as they are so un-sure of them selfs.

[Joy Anne]

28. Rambo as an influence

Not to mention those pervasive shoot-em-up videogames.

[noahmijo]

3. There's nothing wrong with being macho

I prefer the use of brains AND machismo.

They must go together as far as I'm concerned. You can be the smartest person and know what you're talking about but if you lack the gravitas to take action or make your thoughts known and refuse to step up then what good is mind without action?

Likewise relying on strength without thought gets you nowhere fast.

[G_j]

4. I suppose then that discussion would be

what is strength? What did Clinton say the other night? Wisdom and strength are not mutally exclusive or something like that.

[WindRavenX]

5. It had to be done, sadly

The Republican's slime tactic of mind-washing the public that the Democrats are weak on national defense really took a hold after 9/11. It's a shame we have to be thumping our chests, but the American public is scared and brain-washed....
Fear-mongering sucks. Big time.

[G_j]

7. at this point

I feel a sort of a sad resignation about it all. I certainly look forward to the demise of the fear-mongering mean spirited RW bully influences in our culture.

[WindRavenX]

8. It makes me wonder how people are going to react to the RNC

You know that the RNC is just going to be a big "terra terra terra" lovefest, but seeing the genuine hope that's coming out of the DNC and Kerry campaign, people may not respond positively to such a negative, fearful message. At least I hope.

[G_j]

9. I was thinking that same thing tonight

if that doesn't work for them this time, they are plum out of luck because its the only trick they know.

I'm hoping too

[T Town Jake]

10. Not me...

...I was so proud when I heard what John Edwards had to say, with that icy stare, about going after the terrorists in his speech that my heart skipped a couple of beats! The Scoop Jackson Democrats are finally back on top in the Party! And it's about fucking time, too, if you ask me--it's the way Democrats WIN in this country, by being excellent on social/domestic issues and at least as TOUGH as the GOP on National Security matters. It's the way Harry Truman, Jack Kennedy, and LBJ all won their respective presidential victories, at the end of the day, and it's high time the Democratic Party got BACK to that tradition, IMHO.
The Kerry/Edwards team knows exactly what they're doing in this regard, and I, for one, applaud them.

[G_j]

11. what about the

bit about "fighting for our values" in Iraq. Isn't that a quote right out of Bush's mouth?

[eridani]

14. Values, Yeah, right.

Raping kids in front of their parents in Abu Ghraib.

[T Town Jake]

15. I'm not an expert...

...on what comes out of Bush's mouth, but I do know this: the Democratic Party WINS (to use a macho boxing metaphor) when they have a strong left hook (on domestic issues) and a decent right jab (on National Security matters). It is the way every one of the Democratic Party's strongest standard-bearers (FDR, Truman, JFK) in the last century conducted business...and I'm okay with that company. Are you?
Hell, even Thomas Jefferson ordered the Navy & Marines to the Barbary Coast to take on the terrorists of his day, the Tripoli Pirates. And he was the founder of the Democratic Party, for crying out loud.
I say again: the Kerry/Edwards team knows exactly what they're doing in this regard and I, for one, applaud them.

[G_j]

16. each to their own

I didn't like it when Bush said it because its a lie.
pretty simple..

[punpirate]

17. I hope they do...

... because if they keep up the way it's been going in the last twenty years, this country will be bankrupt in less than ten years, and then where is everyone? Scratching for a living, that's what, and ripe for takeover by the first tin-pot emperor to come along. (Jeb Bush, anyone?)

I strongly recommend, to anyone believing that this sort of debt for the sake of military posturing can be continued for much longer, read Kevin Phillips' Wealth and Democracy. It will be a guaranteed eye-opener.

Cheers.

[T Town Jake]

18. Kevin Phillips? You gotta be...

...kidding me. The guy who was the author of The Emerging Republican Majority back in the late sixties? Yeah, I'm gonna count him as some kind of legitimate source alright...might as well head over to old Free Republic and see what they have to offer in the way of substantive analysis along these lines...C'mon now. Be serious.
I stand behind every word of my original posts.

[punpirate]

19. Pardon me for being blunt...

... but if you don't read the bloody book, you won't know that he's on the side of ordinary Americans.

If you want to exhort politicians to break the bank, that's your right. Try not to drag the rest of us down with you, though, huh?

[T Town Jake]

20. Well, pardon me for being honest...

...but I have no interest in reading the "bloody book" - but I DO have an interest in seeing the Kerry/Edwards team do well. Try not to DRAG that effort down the best you can with ill-informed chatter and we'll be even, huh?

[punpirate]

21. I will ignore the personal attack...

... and suggest that the person who doesn't read is the one who is ill-informed....

I have an interest in seeing the American people do well. The first step in that process is getting rid of Bush and his crew. Kerry can accomplish the first step. If he continues with the same old policies, he doesn't accomplish the necessary end result.

[T Town Jake]

22. LOL...quoting your very words is now a "personal attack"...

...whatever, though allow me a mild <snicker>...
Don't really care what you "have" an "interest" in, to be sure, but I have an interest in seeing the Democratic Party of the United States reclaim it's heritage, healthy national defense spending & projection and all. I'll say it again: the Kerry/Edwards team knows exactly what it is doing in this regard, and I, for one, applaud them. It's the way Democrats win elections in this country, plain and simple.

[punpirate]

24. Uh, huh.... n/t

[G_j]

26. to be fair, a correction

Edwards said .."To us, the real test of patriotism is how we treat the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to defend our values. "

he didn't say in Iraq

I find this line somewhat less objectionable than if he had specifically named Iraq, though that is where the majority of the troops are.

-Viewed through the eyes of many of the troops they are defending our values.

-Viewed with knowledge of the reality of Bush motives they are not defending our values.

Given that the statement was in the context of properly taking care of the troops, I'll let it go.
Apologies for the original mis-quote.

[neverborn]

23. What macho posturing are you talking about?

[G_j]

27. it appeared at various times over the last few days.

obviously to counteract the "Dems are weak on defense" meme.
If you'll note in my original post I was longing for the time when people don't feel obliged to do this. The Edwards' glare on 'destroying' the terrorists was probably the most obvious.