sorry, but I'm really getting tired of all the war shit. it's getting old.

[okieinpain]

I really sick of bush, and in november I'm going to do what I can for kerry (even volunteer some time), but this war rah, rah, rah, crap is really old.

[girl gone mad]

1. Are you referring to anything..

in particular?

[okieinpain]

4. yeah, the whole convention. it's like dems are, well as many

have said here repugs lite.

[RoyGBiv]

2. You mean Wes?

It was a setup for his "fraud" snap.

[Beaverhausen]

3. Gee, poor you!

I imagine the soldiers, not to mention the iraqi people are pretty tired of it too. :eyes:

[okieinpain]

7. I bet they are too, so you're okay with the war, rah, rah, rah.

[qazplm]

5. well

you are in the minority, we ARE at war, it's just that the current administration is prosecuting it horribly, wrongly and misguidedly, but if you think we aren't at war with terrorists at least at some level, well man I dont know what to say.

And since we have allowed the right to be so successful in painting us as weak and appeasers, yeah we have to go over the top a little to reverse some of that damage.

[okieinpain]

9. thanks, I'm glad you're admitting it is over the top a little bit.

[qazplm]

17. and I am not bothered about it a bit

because EVERYTHING about a convention is over the top, its theatre, its not quiet discourse in a library.

[latebloomer]

18. What does gong to war with Iraq based on lies

have to do with terrorism?

Far as I can tell, it's just creating more terrorists.

[qazplm]

30. what does Iraq

have to do with what Clark was talking about or being at war??

You are the one linking the two, no one else is....Clark isnt and neither am I.

[latebloomer]

52. I wasn't aware this had anything to do with Clark.

The original post was about being sick of the war in Iraq and the Dems seeming to be pro-war.

Then you said something about "whether you like it or not, we are at war with terrorism."

So I asked you what that war has to do with terrorism.

[Selwynn]

6. Yeah I bet our soldiers fighting and dying are pretty fucking tired too.

[Sparrow]

8. Thank God Clark isn't the nominee

We had enough of politicians wrapping themselves in the flag and spewing nationalism.

[qazplm]

10. well do you want dems to win or not

because sorry to say but what you lament is the only way to get elected...

bottom line, we can be "pure" or we can be elected.

[girl gone mad]

15. Do you really think..

that's what he's doing?

I think he's making the point you're making, that the flag doesn't belong to a political party. Clark didn't come accross as a nationalist in the primaries - he is a strong NATO and UN supporter.

[Cha]

40. That's what I saw and I really appreciated it!

It's about time we took the Flag back! And we do have Soldiers in Iraq who have to be recognized. These guys are going about it exactly the right way. I just wish more People could see it!

[Selwynn]

21. Oh please..

[drscm]

11. My three nephews - two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan -

are also chenyin' tired of all the war shit, too. It has been getting old for them, also.

[progressivebydesign]

26. I appreciate their service...

.. I can't even imagine having three close relatives at war all at once. It must be hard for your family, too.

I am not tiring of the war and patriotism focus of the Convention. I'm enjoying it so much. I think it's high time the Democrats claimed the flag back into our party.

[gardenista]

12. Getting old? So is having a Republican in the WH.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

13. Yeah, war sucks.

Duh.

[vi5]

14. I agree, but I think it's necessary....

The other side has gone so far over the edge in portraying the left as soft, mushy, and mamby pamby. And whether we like it or not, there ARE people that want to kill us indiscriminately. But it's a question of who we trust to protect us.

And while there has been a lot of tough talk there's been just as much talk about only using our might when it is absolutely necessary. If there hadn't been that to offset it, I would agree with you more.

[okieinpain]

22. I understand, it just seems like we're going here's john with

the generals, here's john with his old soldiers friends, here's john with a gun, here's john in uniform. okay, I know he's got the stuff, tell me something I don't know.

[qazplm]

31. but you arent the one

who thinks Kerry might be weak on terrorism, the audience this is aimed at very well has questions on that, and the only way Kerry wins is if he satisfies them enough that he will do at least as well or better than Bush on that subject.

[AndyTiedye]

49. But Those Aren't The People We Are Making War On

> There ARE people that want to kill us indiscriminately

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. They did not attack us. They did not threaten us.

Afghanistan may have been implicated in 9/11. They did, however, offer to turn Osama
Bin Ladin over to us, and Bush* refused the offer, because Bush* wanted to invade
Afghanistan and overthrow the Taliban. Since then, he has allowed the Taliban to
regain power in most of the country. Osama is still at large.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia seem to be implicated in 9/11, but they are our "friends".
With friends like those....

The Bush* regime itself seems to be implicated in, at least, allowing it to happen
(LIHOP) and possibly worse (MIHOP). Bin Ladin used to be a CIA "asset" under
Bush I.

[latebloomer]

16. I am sick of it too!

Sick of the war, and sick of the Democratic apologists for it.

[Mojambo]

24. I'm not as much pissed off about the war

or Democrats talking about it.

I'm sick of those damn swing voters that make all of this nonsense necessary.

To hell with swing voters I say.

Ahh, I'm just frustrated by the whole tenor of this convention and want it to be over. The push to capture those moderates (while technically necessary) just takes all the energy and passion out of the Democratic party that I love.

I just want it to be November now...

[Richard D]

19. Ouch

This was a total downer for me. Especially after the optimism of the last couple of days.

[Kahuna]

20. Really? Are you know?

:wtf:

[k in IA]

23. Well, you may want to not watch tonight then because the whole plan

(I have heard) is to try to convince the swing voters that they can trust JK to keep them safe and that he will be a good CIC. That seems to be the only impediment to his getting elected right now.

[no name no slogan]

28. Too bad there's almost no "swing voters" left

and those that are "swing voters" will probably be watching Big Brother instead of some stupid political convention.

At the rate they're going, they'll piss off more of the independent/left-leaning/sympathetically Dem voters than they'll EVER get in conservative "swing" voters.

The Dems already got the Gore 2000 voters, and most of the Nader 2000 voters, too. That is ENOUGH to win. But somehow they think they need the Bush 2000 voters, too.

Why the hell should Dems "reach out" to war-supporting, civil-rights denying jingoistic conservative reactionaries when we already HAVE all the votes we need?

Why not give the base a REASON to vote FOR KERRY, instead of just "against Bush"?

There's a reason why there's TWO political parties in America, and not just one. How about the Dems start acting like a REAL opposition party, instead?

[AndyTiedye]

51. Because of Diebold Republican Electing Machinez, Voter Purges, etc.

We DON'T have enough to win the election today, given the number of votes that we
can expect to be stolen via Diebold or other means.

We won't get that many swing voters either, since that would require more access to
the media than we are getting.

We need to get more new voters and more "unlikely" voters.

[k in IA]

54. Sounds good to me. I want them to emphasize the difference between

Iraq and AQ. Kerry won't get diverted from going after the bastards that attacked us like * did and they can be a hell of a lot smarter about going after AQ. We still have to deal with Iraq but who could trust * on that anymore?

[flordehinojos]

25. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as I heard Wesley Clark

And then, I thought to myself, "self, this nation might all be tired of war talk all the time--and maybe Kerry's and Edwards' focus on HOPE and HEALING, while being ridiculed by Chris Matthews this very evening, might be the thing that clinches the presidency for the Kerry/Edwards ticket. I sure do hope so." and my "self" smiled--there might be more of a method to Kerry's madness than ever Chris Matthews thought would be possible!:)

[Bush was AWOL]

27. Do you guys that oppose this kind of talk realize

this is what the election will come down to? Why do you think they are having Clark, Biden, and Leiberman lead up to Kerry? We aren't giving an inch on National Security because if Kerry wants to win he needs to close the gap in that area.

[okieinpain]

33. is it possible that we can over sell it. is it possible that the people

we are trying to get might say. well if it's that important maybe I should vote for bush.

[Bush was AWOL]

37. That is definitely possible

but unlikely. Name one anti-war canidate running against an incumbent that has ever won?

[Cha]

42. It is important and that's exactly why they Shouldn't

elect bush...Haven't you been paying attention?

the bushco don't have a plan..except tax cuts.

[Pepperbelly]

29. You just don't get it. And you should. This is important!

What Kerry is about to do is overcome a generation's work for the right wing conspiracy, the one that they have depended upon since forever: namely, that the Democrats are not to be trusted when safety is a concern.

Kerry is about to take that away from them. Every image, every song, every speacker, every bit of tonight is designed to do that very thing. If he pulls it off, there will literally be no where for Bush to run.

No where.

Certainly not the economy.

Certainly not the amenities of the populace like money, jobs, health care, infrastructure, schools. The environment.

Certainly not on Iraq.

The last bastion of this scoundrel Bush is his PERCEIVED ability to keep the country safe. I know it's ludicrous. You know it's ludicrous. Yet, there are many, many, many people who believe that very myth.

I say, "Right on!" John Kerry. Use some more of it. Slather that shit on until it fucking GAGS the choir and if the universe smiles at us, he might well succeed.

[Bush was AWOL]

32. Amen!

That is exactly what they are doing.

[ulysses]

35. he's going to do this

how? By reiterating his support for the Iraq invasion?

[Pepperbelly]

43. do you really not understand or is ...

that a rhetorical device?

[ulysses]

50. here's the deal.

Seems to me that we can do one of three things:

1. Convince the electorate that we can out-bomb Bush.

2. Convince the electorate that we can out-bomb Bush, but incur fewer American casualties and bring the troops home sooner, which is what it seems like we're trying to do, again.

3. Convince the electorate that there's a better way to fight terrorism than the path that Bush has followed, which is a message that I think the electorate is ready to hear.

[Pepperbelly]

55. Although I do not ...

at this point of my evening, possess sufficient wit about to me to seriously contemplate the universe of possibles to test whether those are in fact the only choices but, for the sake of argument, I will certainly grant them as a premise.

I think it comes down like this...

Everybody hates the Iraq war. Everyone knows it was done for bullshit reaons that we now know were lies and deceit. Everyone knows who put us there. Everyone knows who pulled the trigger. Everybody knows that our presence in Iraq has created legions of enemies who hate us for cause just as everyone knows that we are the single biggest reason that there is violence there.

Everyone knows it's a shithole tar-baby. Do you remember that story from Uncle Remus(spelling? who knows) where the predator ... I forget which it was, that was tricked from his prey by trading for a tender young baby made of tar, a trick by the victim. And the predator, once he grabbed hold of the tar baby, couldn't let go.

Iraq is a shithole tar-baby.

No one is suggesting that we carry on the way the imbeciles in the Bush admin are carrying on. But that doesn't make a tinkers damn when you look at what the Democrats are doing with their dog and pony show.

It is beautiful.

The Bush will have no where to run.

[ulysses]

56. from "shithole tar-baby" to "beautiful"

in one inch on my monitor.

Yeah, I know the Uncle Remus story (I live in Georgia, after all). Yeah, I know that we've made a complete shithole tar-baby of Iraq. And yeah, I know you're talking about making something beautiful out of that tar-baby on the cynical idea that we weren't the ones who pushed it in the first place.

You can't. Ask Br'er Rabbit.

The Bush will have no where to run. That's great, just great. Pin him to the wall, have your way with him. Achieve electoral glory as our collective feet sink further into the tar.

Just spare a thought for the dead, and for the spirit of LBJ, every so often.

[bhunt70]

36. right on.

[Jawja]

38. Right on.

The Dems are hammering home the point that the military and national security are not owned by REPUBLICANS, which is a myth peddled by the Republicans and the Media. They are doing a great job.

It is an excellent strategy, IMHO.

[okieinpain]

39. don't get me wrong, I understand he needs to sell security. but

it's just seems like we're pushing it really hard. and I fear that if I'm getting tired of it, I wonder what the swing voters are making of it.

[Pepperbelly]

41. Swing voters ain't watching it yet.

It doesn't come on network until later. So it's gagging the fucking choir. We've been LIVING this shit for years.

It isn't about the swing voters watching it. It is about how it makes it to the evening news and the newspapers. When they hear Wesley Clark tell them that they cannot have the flag anymore and when Mzx Cleland and John Kerry advance it farther and farther rhetorically and emotionally, Kerry will own the security issue.

[Cha]

46. I get it! And that's a great summation!

I am so proud of what the Dems have done with this Convention..whoever choreographed this is Brilliant.

[Pepperbelly]

48. Sweet political strategy of the purest kind.

A swift kick to the groin that the Bush is going to play hell responding to. Pardon the dangling participle but sometimes, it's the only structure that will say it.

[Bread and Circus]

34. Well guess what, we were attacked and so we can't hide our heads...

in the sand.

[Individualist]

44. This is what I'd rather hear

War! - huh- yeah-
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War! – huh – yeah-
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing Say it again y’all

War! – huh – good
God What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me…

Ohhh… War! I despise
Because it means destruction’
Of innocent lives

War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives

I said - War! Huh – Good God y’all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

[Pepperbelly]

47. for the briefest of moments ... when wesley shouted, "War!"

I thought that was exactly what was going to happen. Herbal remedies I guess.

[many a good man]

45. Security, morals, taxes, business

and patriotism have all been co-opted by the right in recent decades. The memes are deeply ingrained. If we can win back at least one of these we can be the majority party once again. Security is #1 right now right here and there is no reason on God's green earth that THEY should have the strong reputation on defense that they do.

[Blue-Jay]

53. It sucks, but here's how it works.

They can't come off seeming like they're railing against the war. Yes, that would fire us up, but this is "politics". To the regular Joe (ie. most Dems, centrists, and undecideds), it would seem like they weren't "supporting our troops". The media would have a fucking FIELD DAY with that meme, as would the RW attack dogs.

Secondly, the "rah rah" shit takes away Gillespie & Rove's "flip-flop" opportunity regarding IWR, and various past clips of Kerry denouncing Hussein publicly and buying into the WMD bullshit. They KNEW it was bullshit at the time, but were afraid for their political careers if they denounced a pResident coming off a post-9/11 approval rating in the high 80s. I HATE that they backed down so readily, but it happened.

Third, the "destroy the terrorists" "Rebuild Iraq" "bring you to justice" muckity-muck plays well in Peoria. The average person (not political junkies) unfortunately doesn't see the difference between strength & might. Diplomats rely on strength of character, strength of conviction, strength of compassion, etc. Bullies rely on might and fear and intimidation.

In other words, they're playing the game to get votes. Politics. They're also relying on the lefties to give them a pass this time. OK, guys; you got your pass. Don't screw it up.

[October]

57. It's in response to the polls probably

the ones that show Bush* ahead on the "war" or "security" issue.

Just a guess.