are MOST Americans as stupid as bush?

[mopaul]

for all of our history, presidents have been the most intelligent men we could find generally speaking. a good speaker, a good command of the language, a good understanding of the world. but bush is at about the 4th grade level emotionally and intellectually.

some think that this is deliberate. put in a stupid man for the stupid people, what difference does it make? they are so stupid, they'll see it as a positive thing, a stupid man for us stupid asses.

we need a man who is at least as intelligent as we who are smart enough to go vote. but we were given, and we accepted, an idiot.

this administration will long be remembered as the ones who deliberately put the world's stupidest man in charge, so they could rape us all.

[Spinzonner]

1. Don't you think

that's kind of an insult to stupidity ?

[LiberalVoice]

2. Yes. eom

[tnlefty]

30. What a great pic of Rev. Sharpton...huge smile, he looks so happy!

Thanks for posting it.

[Junkdrawer]

3. By definition, half the population has an IQ at or below 100...

But I'll tell you what, Mo. Go to Canada for a week or two and then flip on American TV. I did a few weeks back and it's startling.

[depakid]

40. Wasn't it Eisenhower

who was "shocked" to hear that 1/2 of all Americans had below average intelligence?

Of course, it depends on who you include in the population... if we're talking all of Canada, Western Europe, Japan, Australia and New Zealand, it could be considerably more than 1/2.

[indigobusiness]

42. What's the upshot?

???

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue-Jay]

11. Perhaps you'd prefer "defile"

or maybe "shit upon"? Regardless of verbage, you'd have to agree that Bush isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, wouldn't you? In fact, he's quite the idiot, in comparison to past (and future) presidents, wouldn't you say?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. I see that you've landed in another discussion...

...and gotten into a dispute with another poster.

Nice start here at DU.

[Blue-Jay]

19. No dispute.

I was just asking Tamara MaineSheAck about her feeling on the topic of the thread instead of the verbage.

[sendero]

5. Americans...

... in general have always had a strong distruct of intellectuals.

No danger whatsoever of mistaking Bush* for an intellectual :)

[demnan]

6. In my opinion, yes

let's hope they all don't vote.

[baldguy]

7. Thats what the GOP hopes.

If people act stupidly, without considering their own best interest - the GOP wins.

If the country is divided, by class, or race, or ideology - then the GOP wins.

If people that the govt is corrupt, or can't do anything for individuals - then the GOP wins.

If people are convinced by the media that all politicians lie - then the GOP wins.

If people don't believe that this election is a life-and-death decision - then the GOP wins.

[Bowline]

8. In short, yes.

I am amazed every day at the ignorance of people I meet. Most have little or no understanding of world events, current news, or even the basics of their own government. All too many Americans can't even find the U.S. on a map, let alone any place else in the world.

The good news is they can tell you which movie star is getting married, which is pregnant, and which is divorcing, as well as who is leading the voting on American Idol or some other such crap.

[devinsgram]

10. Good point

They would rather pick up a trash magazine to read than a good book.

[Bowline]

14. Pretty scary, isn't it? n/t

[Carolina]

27. you are so right and it's truly tragic

Far too many of our brethren among "we, the people" don't read and prefer infotainment pubulum to anything substantive. It doesn't help that our media, in all its forms, is so corrupt.

I recently was talking to someone I thought was informed only to find she had no clue who John Ashcroft was. And as much as I hate to watch, sometimes I cannot help myself when my husband gives me the heads up that Jay Leno is showing the Jay Walking segment in which he asks everyday folks basic questions about history, geography, current events, etc. They are clueless. It's a sad indictment of America and this pervasive ignorance will be our undoing.

[fishface]

9. Recent studies prove that stupid people are Bush's best shot

at getting elected.

Don't think fatboy Rove isn't fully aware of that!

[Bowline]

15. I believe a great majority of Americans believe the last thing they hear.

The ones that do bother to vote will simply check the name of the candidate whom they last saw a commercial for.

It doesn't matter anyway. With the new electronic voting systems coming on line the election will be so rigged it'll look like Chicago in the 1960s. Dead people voting, precincts showing 120% turnout, and since there is no paper trail to audit we're gonna get the candidate THEY chose for us, regardless of who we actually vote for.

[devinsgram]

12. Those in charge knew exactly what they were doing.

They had to pick an ignorant man so they could pull the strings. A real man and a man with intelligence would never have let that happen.

[Mortos]

13. I don't know how

many people I have met who say things like, "I won't listen to Democrats," or I won't watch this or that if it involves Kerry. They close their minds and no amount of contrary information will change them. Yes, I believe that many Americans are stupid with self inflicted ignorance.

[louis c]

16. I Posted A Similar Sentiment

That I personally know at least a dozen men and women that are more qualified to be President than George Bush.

People I work with, family members, and good friends. It is not supposed to be this way.

I never knew any one more qualified to be President than the men in office in the past, whether he agreed with me or not.

The dozen that I know are not exceptional, by any means, but they read, organize, command respect, and are well versed in history and finance. I'm sure many of you can say the same.

The reason for this is we know folks that are above average in intelligence and they are emotionally well developed. George Bush is well below average in these traits, and it is acknowledged by all he meets, foreign or domestic.

At the Republican convention, I hope as hard as I can, that the crowd chants "four more years" over and over again. That thought has to scare most Americans, especially the swing voters.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

18. I wouldn't even go as far to say "stupid," how about "gullible?"

I don't think it's a question of "Repubs (and those voting for Bush) are stupid" and "Dems (and those voting for Kerry) are smart." I think the real issue here is naivete (i.e., those in power will always use their power to help keep us from harm) and gullibility (i.e., believing everything one hears without stopping to think about the veracity of the statement or taking time to think about it critically). There are so many people who believe that the world is black and white, good and evil, that they don't stop to think about the agendas of those who try to force issues with many shades of gray into a dichotomy. The problem for Dems is that the shades of gray can't compete with an easy answer of good or evil, as it requires critical thinking, research, and just so much more time than making a snap judgment of good or evil.

If Kerry's going to win, he's really going to have to do a lot to counteract all of the negative press he's getting from the so-called "liberal" media. If there was any doubt in my mind before about the way that most news programs are slanted, it was made crystal-clear through watching the press coverage of the DNC. Those journalists and their speculation (oops, I mean "news") should be ashamed of themselves.

[ASanders84]

20. Of course

They still think Republicans want smaller government.

[Lindacooks]

21. yes

[many a good man]

22. "There are TWO kinds of Republicans:

Rich ones and Stupid ones."

I don't know who originally came up with that quote but I think its been true for a long, long time.

I think the dumbing down of presidents began with Eisenhower. If you listen to old news reels of him he is a folksy, bumbling, stumbling bozo. When you read his memoirs you can see his sharp mind and eloquence. Its hard to believe he didn't dumb down his speeches.

Reagan and the Bushes have elevated "talking down" to an art form. The pronounced agenda is always stated in the most simplistic terms possible. Nuance and facts are portrayed as intellectual elitism Democrats use to confuse people.

Its true that Americans have always shown a strong mistrust of "intellectuals," and sometimes for good reason (Fordism?). The mass media have capitalized on this phenomenon and the right wing is riding it for all its worth.

[Surf Cowboy]

23. No, they're just stupid...

I know a financial advisor who honestly thinks that Republicans are the party of the working class;

A woman who is viciously pro-choice yet has voted Republican since Reagan and will do so again;

Rednecks from back home who have been crushed by Shrub's domestic policies yet are lining up to vote for him, because they honestly believe that Kerry is a Commie Frog who will give all the welfare mothers Ferraris or something.

Yes, the vast majority of this country is stupid beyond belief--even the ones with college educations. I'm an attorney, and I've found that most lawyers don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

Our educational system in this country has lost its backbone. We're passing children who haven't learned. Look at the poor writing you see every day. The sparse vocabulary and stuttered syntax of 5 generations of progressively stupider kids.

Plus, these generations are so gullible about what they hear from pundits on TV or talk radio--they're ripe on the tree for someone to defraud (like Rush or Seannie). They depend on the TV to tell them what to do, and then the TV is full of right-wing hacks and lying newschannels like FUXNews. The vast majority of our news media has been bought and paid for.

Until we retake control of the newsmedia and the schools, you can expect to see these kids/people get even dumber. I mean, for Chrissakes, they voted to NOT TEACH evolution in Kansas!!!! No wonder they vote for Bush.

[Hoping4Change]

50. Richard Hofstader in the 60's wrote Anti-Intellectualism in America

which went on to receive the Pulitzer for history. It is a brilliant analysis of the distrust many Americans have of book learning that goes back to the first pilgrims. He lays blame on the various Protestants sects that stressed emotional connection to God and scorned anything associated to the Anglican Church with its educated clergy. The chickens Hofstader pointed out 40 years ago are coming home to roost.

Anyway its a great read. And BTW welcome to DU. :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Most turnips aren't as stupid as Bush.

[Octafish]

25. No. Bush is below average.

91.

[GreenArrow]

26. no

most are stupider. Bush is not completely stupid. He is ignorant. He is incurious. He simply doesn't care about what does not interest him. But he is cunning, like a wolf or panther. He understands how to lure and then catch his prey.

[tnlefty]

32. I think that his willful ignorance and disinterest in exploring much of

anything in the world around him is one of the things that bugs me about him the most. He has little desire to read, which is one way for those of us who can't afford to travel, to learn about other cultures, peoples and places in the world. He has always had more than enough money to travel and to learn and he didn't care enough to bother.

This same lack of interest in world events, current events throughout the world and here at home seems to be common in those who support him.

[mopinko]

28. the thing about * is

first, that he was chosen because he is too stupid to know that he is a puppet, imho. then, these guys really went out and mobilized the stupid vote. i don't know that anyone ever bothered to do that before. or that there was ever a stupid magnet like faux news before. it is an amazing confluence of stupidity.

[dennis4868]

29. IT WORRIES ME....

when the president is not as smart as I am....yikes!

[Brewman_Jax]

31. Yes

I know people who voted for Bush* 'cause he's a cool guy to have a beer with, and that boring Al Gore is just too smart.

Too smart? :shrug:

I could have a beer with Bush*, too, but I want someone smart to be president.

[kodi]

33. most americans are dumber than bush & if that don't scare ya' nothing will

lets face it, the traditional american antagonism towards living a life of the mind is constantly butressed by a propaganda of the right that makes "intellectualism" seem foreign....read "french" in kerry's case.

the dumber the people, the easier it is to sway them towards one's will.

[MUSTANG_2004]

35. Americans aren't stupid

We have a country full of motivated, hard-working people who have accomplished great things.

[kodi]

37. fully motivated & hard working has nothing to do with intelligence

and those accomplishments have been brought about as much by first generation immigrants than as by folks here longer.

all one has to do is look at the test scores of american kids versus their opposite numbers in virtually every first world industrial nation to know that on average, americans are dumber than the rest of the industrial world's people.

but dont take my word for it, i only have 3 graduate degrees in the physcial sciences, travel world-wide, taught undergrad and grad course at a major US univerity and for fun substitute locally in the public school system, so what do i know, right?

[MUSTANG_2004]

39. Degrees in physical science?

What on earth do 3 degrees in chemistry (or physics, geology, etc) have to do with your expertise on American intelligence? Seems like irrelevant bragging a la "I have 3 graduate degrees and can therefore pontificate on everything as an expert."

That said, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said Americans have higher test scores than the rest of the world. I'm saying Americans are not stupid. We're very capable, motivated and hard-working, and the proof is in our accomplishments. A country full of idiots doesn't dominate the world's computer and aerospace industry the way ours does.

[kodi]

41. sorry, but none of your adjectives have anything to do with intelligence

if you want to know why we dominated for the past 60 years, its because the rest of the world was in ruins after ww2.

that is no longer true and as a result the best work in science is no longer being done in the US. its done in europe and japan. where they educate their people better.

only in the US of all industrialized nations do large segments of the population believe in "creation" science, bible "history" as fact, and a myriad of other dumb things.

all my foreign friends can hardly believe how dumb the average american actually is...and they are right. the only saving grace is that with such a large population america can mask the mental deficiencies of a large segment of its population.

[MUSTANG_2004]

47. Not so

The US has been a leader in technology for far more than 60 years, although not as dominant as in the years immediately after WWII.

As far as the adjectives having nothing to do with intelligence, when was the last time you met a capable moron?

I hate to snipe at something trivial, but it's interesting that you don't use proper punctuation or capitalization in a post about under-educated Americans. Are you trying to prove your own point?

[kodi]

49. lower case is quicker. but if americans are so smart how'd bush win?

YOU WANT CAPS? YOU COULDN'T HANDLE THE CAPS.

how 'bout contractions?

and you again seem to have little knowledge of world history. ww1 decimated a generation of european men and sapped the strength of empires that reached around the world. great britain has never recovered, germany was a basket case, france too, the russian empire, the austro-hungarian, ottoman, ditto, all these were traditional seats of great learning and were hit hard by two world wars. learned americans admit that had hitler's craziness not caused hundreds of top scientists to flee europe for america we would not have been able to build the atomic bomb for years after we did.

sure we have smart people in america, and are at that level competitive with the world, but what made us competitive was the constant influx of educated refugees after ww1 & ww2, money to pay the best of japan and europe to come to the states and work in well equipped labs.

what gave the US the edge after ww2 was the BIOS and FIAT teams of allied scientists in uniform that translated every thing from the far superior german chemical and metallurgy industries which was given away to the US chemicals and material science industries.

essentially the americans conquered the nazis and took their scientific breakthroughs for their own commercial interests.

one half of the graduate students i taught were from china, india, japan and korea. most of the american students did not show the level of curiosity, let alone the work ethic of the foreign students, and those kids went back to their own countries instead of staying here in the US as the same type kids would have even a generation or so before.

that brain drain has slowed to a trickle and no longer stocks the pond. now, today i know several scientists born in the US who have chosen to work in europe...because they have better equipment and funding to do their work. that would not have happened even 25 years ago, and its happening more and more.

[MUSTANG_2004]

51. Don't know history?

Au contraire. But, to address your points:
1) Why was Bush elected if Americans aren't dumb.
a) The obvious retort, is that Bush didn't win the popular vote.
b) A less popular view here, but nevertheless true, is that there are plenty of reasons for an intelligent person to have chosen Bush over Gore. (While I chose Gore, there are certainly valid reasons why others might not have)

2) Immigrants no longer "stock the pond"? Take a look at the computer industry and tell me again how you don't see any new immigrants.

3) You seem to be saying that WWI and WWII are the reasons the US has done well, but that statement neglects that the US has been one of the leaders of the industrialized world since well before WWI (Think Alexander Graham Bell, Standard Oil, Edison, Ford, etc).

4) I'm not sure why you keep saying that the wars decimated European science and that they'd be much farther ahead without them. In many ways the war-related research gave us huge advances (radar, jets, rockets, etc) that may have taken much longer otherwise.

But more to the point, I am not trying to compare Europe and America (although we certainly compare favorably when you look at economic power), but rather I'm saying that Americans are a pretty sharp bunch. To say we're a bunch of ignorant, easily led idiots is to ignore our history (and common sense - look around and tell me this country's accomplishments were made by morons).

[PATRICK]

34. People prefer intelligence and good speaking

and the Bush people have lied very hard to project this phony overlay over an undeniable poor performance. hey, if Bush IS smart then the ordinary folk are too! Flattering is always part of the con. Then, losing that battle, they settle for trying to work it both ways toward the middle.

Otherwise he would be as quiet and invisible as Jeb usually is, a more comfortable elitist style indeed if people don't care.

Absent the props, future generations will have a hard time puzzling how Bush ever got anywhweres in politics.

[samsingh]

36. i would say that 20 -40 % are.

no offense intended.

[proud patriot]

38. No I refuse to believe that n/t

[Disturbed]

46. Anti-intellectualism

Anti-intellectualism

--------------SNIPPET----------------------

"Anti-intellectualism is found in every nation on earth. Americans, among others, have been accused quite vocally of suffering from it, particularly by the liberal literati both in the USA and in Europe. Such accusations are particularly fueled by existence of the political schism between the Republican and Democratic parties which prompt the less scrupulous contenders on both sides use it as a term of abuse for their opponents. By comparison societies in Europe and Asia are much more politically homogenous.

Historically, anti-intellectualism did play a prominent role in American culture. Some of it originated from the commonly held view among conservative Christians of old that education subverts morality and religious belief. The validity of this view, in fact, was well substantiated by the spread of atheism and Deism among the educated during the Enlightenment. Hence, for instance, the New England Puritan writer John Cotton wrote in 1642 that "The more learned and witty you bee, the more fit to act for Satan will you bee."

A much more important historical source of anti-intellectualism has been the 19th century popular culture. At the time when the vast majority of the population was involved in manual labor, bookish education, which at the time focused on classics, was seen to have little value. It should be noted that Americans of the era were generally very literate and, in fact, read Shakespeare much more than their present day counterparts. However, the ideal at the time was an individual skilled and successful in his trade and a productive member of society; studies of classics and Latin in colleges were generally derided in popular culture. Anti-intellectual folklore values the self-reliant and "self-made man," schooled by society and by experience, over the intellectual whose learning was acquired through books and formal study. A character of O'Henry has noted that once a graduate of an East Coast college gets over being vain, he makes just as good a cowboy as any other young man.

Today both of the factors discussed above are pretty much non-existent in America. Christian thinkers, who no longer have much influence in society in any event, no longer consider education in general evil, although they may object to some of its specific un-Christian aspects, e.g. alleged anti-religious propaganda in schools and colleges. The ideal of the self-made man without schooling has also disappeared together with the once-plentiful manual jobs; in today's society education is generally seen as essential and roughly speaking most everybody either graduated from college or is hoping to do so sooner or later.

A major preserve of real, militant anti-intellectualism in today's America (as perhaps in many other countries) is a youth subculture often associated with those students who are more interested in social life and athletics than in their studies. Such subculture exists among students of all groups, although among Asians Americans it is reputedly much less pronounced. On the other hand, there exists much anecdotal evidence of anti-intellectualism among African American youth who may consider focusing on school studies a "white" thing. Needless to say, there are plenty of loafers and anti-intellectuals among white students also."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism

[porphyrian]

43. I'm not that fucking stupid. - n/t

[Technowitch]

44. No

I don't think they're stupid. Just misled.

I have a dear friend who bought into the smear job that Scaife's newspaper did on Teresa Heinz Kerry. She believed all of it.

Now think on all the people who believe that Fox really is "fair and balanced." And those who instead watch CNN or MSNBC or the networks and think they're getting the real thing -- or, in some cases, believe the news reporting is slanted to the left/liberal side.

Besides taking our government back, we also need to reinstate those 'fariness' doctrines and conflict-of-interest rules for the FCC, which were dumped during the Reagan era.

[Tight_rope]

45. I agree...We do have many "STUPID" selfish people in the USA!

And no matter how much you point out the "TRUTH" to some people, they remain blind to the "TRUTH".

Should we give up or should we move on and say to hell with them?

I say never give up. We have wakened so many and I feel that we can still wake up many more. Now don't get me wrong. I know that there are some that are just plain "DEAD". These individuals may not be barried 6 feet under physically, but they are barried mentally. For those individuals I say let's just put flowers on top of them.

[Kat45]

48. Scary too is folks who aren't stupid yet still don't get it:

I've come across people who are looking at the candidates, trying to decide who to vote for. What I find hard to believe is that anyone who takes more than a cursory look at the candidates can't distinuish a difference between them! I was at the Kerry campaign's convention-watching party in Boston last night. The party was mainly for campaign volunteers, but a number of them had brought some friends with them. I was sitting next to a woman who was clapping in response to a lot of the things that Kerry said. When I talked to her later, she said she was there with a friend who's a volunteer--BUT SHE HADN'T YET DECIDED WHO SHE SHOULD VOTE FOR!!! I would think that between talking to her friend and hearing what she heard at this event, it would have become pretty clear that there's a huge difference betweent the candidates. And she obviously liked a lot of what Kerry said. WTF? Another guy I talked to later also wasn't sure who he should vote for. Aaaaaaaaaarth! I really enjoyed the convention, the speeches, the enthusiasm, but I got pretty bummed out to see that even folks in the midst of all this STILL DIDN'T KNOW WHO TO VOTE FOR!!!!

:wtf: