Do you believe Paul Wellstone's plane crash was an accident?

[wicket]

If not, what do you think happened?

[Catholic Sensation]

1. six no votes and not one person explaining it

:thumbsup:

[markdd]

3. BFEE

:tinfoilhat: eom

[Catholic Sensation]

5. evidence

"eom"

[hang a left]

6. it is the lack of evidence that causes suspicious minds to wander.

The fact that 2 FBI field agents on the scene within an hour but 8 hours from their field office. The unwillingness of the original police investigators to discuss these two agents. And the changing of the story by the officer in command. THat is just for starters.

[Catholic Sensation]

7. so... no evidence of murder... means there could have been a murder

and ignorance is strength

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

29. Aviation investigators agreed.

Pilot error.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rooboy]

13. Lack of evidence of a crime does not prove innocence. n/t

[Catholic Sensation]

15. so let's get this straight

the bush administration has fucked up afghanistan, iraq, the economy, our position in the world, and just about everything else they've touched... yet they managed to murder Paul Wellstone without one single mistake. Yeah :eyes:


(thanks to Proud German for putting it all into perspective)

[rooboy]

24. What makes you think I suspect the "Bush Administration" ? n/t

[Catholic Sensation]

26. oh I don't know...

because the post of mine asking for evidence was a reply to one saying the "bfee" was responsible?

[geek tragedy]

28. I guess his family and campaign manager are just dumb sheep.

Or maybe they're in on it too . . .

Let the man rest and his family grieve. Dear lord.

[Catholic Sensation]

35. i'm not the one saying the bush admin did it

i'm the one saying it was an accident, and according to rooboy, because i require evidence of a crime having been committed to believe a crime was committed, I'm "ignorant."

[geek tragedy]

38. You and I are on the same side.

I was just chiming in. Sorry if I made that unclear.

:toast:

[jukes]

66. yep

& johnjohn's was an accident.

hanging chads were accidents.

the towers; accident.

what proof do you need that these criminals are guilty of crimes?

"reasonable doubt" be fucked, i don't care about convicting them, i just want to get them gone.

you're positing an argument w/no substance; poster asked what we "believe".

[jukes]

65. can't explain the grassy knoll either

but i still believe oswald was a patsy.


effing up the mechanix of a small plane is easier than 'jacking a nation, &, btw, they were damn successful in stealing this one.

do you want proof of that, too?

is this merely an exercise in debating technique. had that as a sophomore in college, just don't need the rhetorically baroque gimcrackery to make up my mind that monsters are monsters.

& don't need my nose broke before i put up my fists, either.

[wyldwolf]

2. A more entertaining question would be...

Do you believe Paul Wellstone's plane crash was an accident?
If SO, what do you think happened?

[whistle]

4. But, what happened and who was behind it?

[Jackpine Radical]

8. Stickdog presented voluminous evidence & analysis here

many months ago. He debunked all the "accident" explanations. It was interesting how many different explanations the authorities kept coming up with. The plane iced up--but whoops-it was 34 degrees that day, etc. Go look it up; don't make us try to dredge it up from memory.

[geek tragedy]

16. It was pilot error--his family sued the airline because they hired

morons to fly the plane. Did stickdog debunk that one too? If so, the insurance companies for the airline should have hired him--he would have saved them $25 Million.

[Jackpine Radical]

20. My vague recollection was that Stickdog made some points

about the bad-pilot hypothesis too, but as I say, my memory is vague on the point.

[geek tragedy]

23. No offense to stickdog, but

I'll take the word of his family and the NTSB.

[Jackpine Radical]

43. Here--happy hunting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=561809&mesg_id=561809

[geek tragedy]

47. Nothing in there about the NTSB report, which came afterwards

There is ZERO evidence of a conspiracy, or that it was anything but pilot error.

Let's see--

Family, friends, and aviation professionals who investigated

vs.

keyboardists who see conspiracies in everything

Tough one--whom should I believe?

[DemoTex]

39. So did DemoTex

I refuted a specific claim that no King Air 100 had ever crashed because of icing by presenting the case of a crash near Birmingham, Ala., in the early 1970s. That doesn't mean the Wellstone crash experienced icing, but it did contradict a wild-eyed claim that was not true.

I might not be right. I am not dogmatic, nor am I a zealot about aircraft accident investigation. That is why one of the best accident investigators in the history of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) invited me to join his team (which I did). The fact that I am a trained and experienced aircraft accident investigator doesn't make me right either. However, it does tend to ward off the fuzzy thinking that I have seen on DU regarding the Wellstone crash.

Mac

[MercutioATC]

49. Icing has nothing to do with surface temperature.

"34 degrees" means nothing. Planes experience icing when it's 80 degrees on the ground (one did last week around 16,000 feet near Cleveland). What matters is temperature aloft and it drops rapidly once you leave the ground. It's summer, and right now the temperature at 41,000 feet is probably in the neighborhood of 40-50 below zero.

[donkeyotay]

9. I thought Carnahan's was an accident

When the republicans got that little bit of good luck, I thought it was suspicious but could be chalked up to the weather. But when it happened again? Look, Wellstone would have been the leader of the opposition to the war... in fact, he might have stopped it. It was awfully convenient he died. Well, statistically speaking, lucky thing "A" happens times lucky thing "B"...c,d, etc. There have been way too many fortunate events for the BFEE.

Seems the official inquiry did not come up with a cause, and it wasn't the weather, so use your imagination... these folks have never lied to us or done anything dishonest have they?

[LSdemocrat]

41. Umm, that was from manufacturer error

The family successfully sued the airplane part manufacturer.

http://www.ky3.com/newsdetailed.asp?id=5719

[MercutioATC]

46. Actually, it was pilot error. The vacuum pumps did not fail on that plane.

Parker-Hannifin fought it in court, but were still found liable because they'd had OTHER pumps fail in OTHER planes.

Carnahan's plane did not experience a problem with the vacuum pumps.

http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Publications/Legal_Issues/carnahanfail.html

[Junkdrawer]

10. Wellstone died 10 days before the election...

Had it been 9 days, his name would have stayed on the ballot. But as it was, the Minn. Democratic Party had to name a last minute replacement.

[geek tragedy]

11. His family says it was an accident and proved it in a court of law.

But why should we believe them? :shrug:

The pilot was unfit to fly.

Edited to add:

My mistake--their evidence was so overwhelming that the other side settled.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/08/28_zdechlikm_wellstonesettle/

<snip>
Minneapolis, Minn. — In a written statement, the law firm said the deaths of the Wellstones and the others were unnecessary. The law firm says pilots' failure to maintain appropriate power and airspeed caused the crash.

The three-page statement blames the lack of flight crew competence on negligent hiring, supervision and training on the part of Eden Prairie-based Aviation Charter, which operated the flight.
<snip>

<snip>
The National Transportation Safety Board has not yet released its final report on the crash, and isn't expected to until sometime later this year. But information the NTSB has made public points to pilot error, not to mechanical problems or bad weather.
<snip>

[Mike Niendorff]

42. Two points:

(1) There were two pilots onboard, not just one. Bad enough for ONE pilot to accidentally fly too slow and stall the plane. But TWO of them? Please.

(2) by your own admission, the parties reached an agreement and settled the matter out of court. Thus, your "proven in a court of law" argument is simply false, since the facts were not determined by a jury.


MDN

[geek tragedy]

45. Notice my correction.

I'm going to believe the aviation professionals who investigated this tragedy and Sen. Wellstone's family and friends.

Of course, the NTSB must be in on the conspiracy, and thus it grows . . .

[Mike Niendorff]

53. Derisive crap.

Nobody is claiming a "conspiracy" by the NTSB. The fact is, they found no mechanical or weather-related explanation for the crash. That left them two options: either attribute the crash to "pilot error" or plead cluelessness. They opted for the former.


MDN

[geek tragedy]

60. They came to a very specific conclusion on how the crash happened

It has far more credibility than anything else offered.

[jukes]

69. oh, please

how naive are you? do you really think that the ntsb is an objective, independant agency, aloof from all political pressure?

i spent 7 years in DC, split between reagan & bush I, the insidious political interference broke my morale & drove me into retirement as soon as i clocked year 20.

your lofty arguments are meaningless, and tedious, philosophical diarrhea: makes plenty of noise, but stinks, too.

[seemslikeadream]

12. No

W R Grace Asbesotos

[seemslikeadream]

19. This is just the tip of the iceburg

Lawyers handling the asbestos suits against Grace say the shuffling was done to conceal assets and cloud the corporate lines of responsibility. Grace denies the charges and calls the moves "solid business decisions."

But like other giant companies that sold asbestos products during the heyday of the flameproof fiber, Grace is still plagued by lawsuits filed by people allegedly harmed or killed by the fibers in the insulation, garden products and other applications it sold.
More than 250,000 asbestos-related suits have been filed against Grace.

Almost all of them except the 187 involving the miners and the families from Libby are personal-injury suits dealing with the hazards of asbestos products, said Jay Hughes, Grace's top litigation counsel.

John Travolta in "A Civil Action."
John Travolta and Robert Duvall dramatized the book of the same name written by Jonathan Harr. The book told the story of families living in the old New England mill town of Woburn on the outskirts of Boston.

Five Woburn children and one adult died of acute lymphocytic leukemia from exposure to chemicals in their drinking water. Others were sickened. Grace and another company were found by the Environmental Protection Agency to be responsible for dumping the toxic chemicals that poisoned two of Woburn's wells. Grace paid $8 million to eight families in return for the withdrawal of lawsuits they had filed.

Later, Grace was indicted by the Department of Justice on two counts of lying to the EPA in 1982 about the amount of hazardous chemicals it used at its Woburn plant. In 1988, Grace pled guilty to one count and was fined the maximum -- $10,000. Today, the penalty for that charge is $500,000.
more
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/uncivilaction/grac19.shtml

[seemslikeadream]

22. I always found this conversation interesting

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/alchenc.htm

[Wind Dancer]

40. Weird conversation, seemslikeadream!

I didn't know about the Grace angle.

[seemslikeadream]

50. Paul was fighting as hard as he could to get the EPA Report out

on Grace. I don't think it ever came out. Asbestos is everywhere and Grace was responsible for almost all of it. Guess who bought up Grace? Halliburton.

[seemslikeadream]

33. W.R. Grace files for bankruptcy

Taxpayers may get cleanup bill for asbestos contamination

Tuesday, April 3, 2001

By ANDREW SCHNEIDER
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT

Saying it can't handle the flood of asbestos personal-injury lawsuits, W.R. Grace & Co. has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

Because of the filing, taxpayers may get stuck with millions of dollars for cleaning up sites contaminated by the 150-year-old company.


Nowhere was the announcement more strongly felt then the tiny northwestern village of Libby, Mont

more
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/grace03.shtml

[seemslikeadream]

34. W.R. Grace names exec to oversee restructuring

As of Dec. 31, almost 125,000 bodily injury claims had been filed against Grace, in addition to 16 other property damage and class-action lawsuits. To date, Grace has faced more than 325,000 asbestos personal injury claims and paid out more than $1.9 billion


A number of the suits allege Grace officials knew about reports of microscopic, asbestos-tainted fibers in its manufacturing and processing plants, but the company failed to warn its workers of the dangers. When inhaled, the fibers can cause asbestosis and other rare forms of debilitating lung diseases.

more
http://washington.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2001/04/09/daily5.html?page=2

[seemslikeadream]

37. Patty Murray on Asbestos Legislation She been working hard!

Bush hasn't released that EPA Report yet either.
Asbestos
News Releases
4/22/2004
Murray Votes 'No' on Inadequate and Unfair Asbestos Bill

4/21/2004
Remarks by Senator Patty Murray on Asbestos Legislation

4/21/2004
PHOTO: Standing Up for Victims of Asbestos Exposure

3/25/2004
Murray, Senators, Doctors, and Victims Urge Congress to Protect Americans from Deadly Asbestos

3/24/2004
PHOTO: Ban Asbestos Now!

3/4/2004
Murray to Congress: Ban Asbestos Now

11/5/2003
Murray to EPA: Don't Withdraw Asbestos Guidance for Mechanics

10/24/2003
Murray Remembers Paul Wellstone

9/12/2003
Murray Addresses Canadian Asbestos Conference

9/8/2003
Asbestos Column by Senator Patty Murray

7/15/2003
Murray Reaction Mixed to Judiciary Committee Passage of Asbestos Liability Bill

6/24/2003
Asbestos Ban Included in Litigation Reform Bill

6/19/2003
Murray's Asbestos Ban Likely in Litigation Reform Bill

6/17/2003
PHOTO: Murray Hears from an Asbestos Expert

6/4/2003
PHOTO: Children Played In This Rock Pile, Which Contained Asbestos

6/4/2003
Murray Takes Asbestos Ban to Judiciary Committee Hearing on Asbestos Litigation Reform

6/4/2003
PHOTO: It’s Time To Ban Asbestos

6/4/2003
PHOTO: Libby Resident Calls for Ban on Asbestos

6/3/2003
Sen. Murray and Asbestos Victims Speak Out Over Concerns with the Asbestos Compensation Reform Legislation

6/2/2003
PHOTO: Asbestos Victim Tells Reporters, “I should be dead now.”

6/2/2003
PHOTO: These Brake Pads Contain Deadly Asbestos

5/22/2003
Murray Re-Introduces Bill to Ban Asbestos in America

5/22/2003
PHOTO: Sen. Murray Re-introduces the Ban Asbestos in America Act

5/22/2003
PHOTO: At a news conference to reintroduce the Ban Asbestos in America Act, Murray holds up a can of plastic roofing cement containing asbestos.

5/22/2003
Remarks by Senator Murray Introducing Her Ban Asbestos in America Act

5/22/2003
PHOTO: Lieutenant Colonel James Zumwalt

5/21/2003
Murray Responds To EPA's Public Awareness Campaign on Asbestos-Tainted Insulation

5/19/2003
EPA Panel Backs Murray Asbestos Ban

3/28/2003
Senators Call on EPA to Live Up to Its Word, Warn Homeowners on Asbestos-Tainted Insulation

3/5/2003
As Judiciary Committee Discusses Asbestos Lawsuits, Senator Murray Calls on Congress to Ban Asbestos

2/18/2003
Asbestos in the Attic: Murray Highlights Danger at Abandoned Spokane Home

2/10/2003
Murray, Waxman and Others Seek Answers About Why EPA Cancelled Public Asbestos Warning

2/10/2003
Murray Urges ABA to Delay Decision and Consider Expert Input on Asbestos Litigation

2/6/2003
Murray Questions Why Our Government Isn't Warning Homeowners and Protecting Workers from Dangerous Insulation

1/21/2003
EPA Letter to Murray on Asbestos Raises as Many Questions as it Answers

1/3/2003
Murray Demands Answers to White House Decision to Spike Asbestos Warning

6/20/2002
Murray Testifies on Asbestos At Hearing on Libby(Montana) Site

6/18/2002
PHOTO: Murray Introduces the Ban Asbestos in America Act

6/18/2002
Asbestos Bill Introduced: Murray's Floor Statement

6/18/2002
Senator Murray's Remarks on the Ban Asbestos in America Act

6/18/2002
Murray Introduces Legislation to Ban Asbestos, Increase Research, Determine Which Consumer Products Still Contain the Carcinogen

6/18/2002
PHOTO: Murray Introduces Asbestos Bill

7/31/2001
Remarks by Senator Murray on Asbestos Exposure and Workplace Safety
http://murray.senate.gov/asbestos/as_news.cfm

[Krupskaya]

14. I don't know, but...

put it this way. I'm not going to knock myself out researching if it was or not. But if it comes out that it was not an accident, I am not going to be surprised. At all.

[WI_DEM]

17. I think it was an unfortunate, tragic accident

what the Bushies are guilty is making political hay out of a memorial service which was ripe with emotion. They turned his tragic death to their advantage.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

62. It's tempting to think it was intentional

because I think the BFEE is incredibly evil and wouldn't be above doing something like that, but I think it really was an accident. I'm a pilot and a flight instructor with an academic background in flight safety, and based on what I know there is nothing at all suspicious about the NTSB's findings. Both pilots were not as proficient as they should have been, and they allowed the airplane to get too slow while they were looking for the runway in marginal weather on a nonprecision approach. 80 knots is way too slow for a King Air; they evident;y got distracted and stalled the damn thing at an altitude that made a stall recovery impossible. It was a sad, stupid accident of the sort that happens too often in general aviation operations, though not in the more tightly regulated major airlines. If the BFEE wanted to murder Wellstone they could have done it in a way that would have been less likely to give rise to conspiracy theories. But to "cause" that airplane to crash mysteriously only a week before the election was just too obvious. Occam's Razor applies here: the simplest cause is the most likely to be true.

[Mike Niendorff]

18. This has been gone over again and again and again on DU.

The NTSB looked at the evidence, and the only explanation they could come up with was "pilot error" -- as in: no mechanical explanation, no weather-related explanation.

I'll leave it to those with DU-search capability to dig up the relevent threads from 2002 (since my bookmarks on the subject got wiped out during the changeover to DU 2.0). But common sense should also tell you that when key opposition Senators and Senate-candidates develop a habit of dying in unexplained plane crashes and encountering military-grade anthrax in their mail, well, something smells MIGHTY rotten. And that's not even beginning to go into the MASSIVE questions surrounding Bush, Ashcroft, Cheney and 9/11.


MDN

[geek tragedy]

21. "NTSB blames pilots for crash that killed Wellstone, 7 others"

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/11/18_zdechlikm_ntsbreport/
<snip>
They told a hearing of the National Transportation Safety Board in Washington that the plane crashed because the pilots waited too long to lower the plane's landing gear, then slowed to a speed that would allow the gear to be lowered safely. When the gear was lowered, the airspeed quickly disintegrated and the plane stalled, then crashed in a swamp a quarter-mile from the runway, killing everyone aboard.
<snip>

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Suspicious stuff

The FBI on the scene almost immediately--but not from the nearest office.

Eyewitness seeing a burst of flame from the plane as it approached the airport

The timing--I've had several friends and relatives (I'm a native of Minnesota and recently moved back here) spontaneously tell me that they think the planed was sabotaged, and the thing that they keep coming back to is the timing--the last day Wellstone's name could be removed from the ballot and an awfully short time to find a replacement candidate.

Ted Kennedy was originally supposed to have taken that flight but decided to go to Duluth separately after the Wellstones decided to stop off in Virginia/Eveleth, MN on their way to Duluth, ironically to attend a funeral. If he had been on the plane, it would have been a "twofer."

The plane's wings, where the fuel tanks are, come off during the crash, and yet the fusilage is so ravaged by fire that the bodies are burned beyond recognition.

The early reporting, with Wolf Blitzer insisting, just after the crash site had been discovered, that the cause had to be ice on the wings, and the onsite reporter in Minnesota puzzled about why he was insisting on that. (I saw this report myself, and it immedately raised my suspicions. Why was Wolfie so confident that a plane crash he did not witness and a crash site that he had not seen pointed to ice on the wings?)

The attempt to smear the pilots, with reports of what hot dogs they were and how they had attempted crazy stunts with the Wellstones on board on a previous flight. Yet the Wellstones were both afraid to fly, and it is difficult to imagine them agreeing to fly twice with a hot dog pilot. Oh, and the company and all the other pilots knew that the pilot was irresponsible and still they let him fly a Senator? Oh, no, wait, it was that the pilot was tired and maybe drowzy--but falling asleep during a landing, the most dangerous part of a flight, is as unthinkable as falling asleep while merging on the freeway.

I read the preliminary FAA report, and while I didn't understand the technical stuff, there were some odd things in the eyewitness statements, especially things that happened at the St. Paul airfield, but I can't remember it, and unfortunatly, a hard disk crash last fall wiped out all my saved docs from that period. Can anyone help me on this?

I can't prove anything, but here's my scenario (if I were a mystery writer): There's a bomb on the plane, perhaps in a piece of extra luggage or in some flame-consumable container. It goes off as the plane comes in for a landing, detonated either by radio control or by the descent below a certain altitude. The blast is enough to make the pilots lose control. The assassination team standing by rushes to the site, removes evidence of the bomb, and torches the fusilage using aviation fuel.

Can I prove it? No, but like countless other Minnesotans, I will never be convinced that the BFEE was innocent of the deaths of these eight people.

[NuttyFluffers]

30. a good rule of thumb: fly no small planes in america if famous

especially if you are speaking out against powerful interests. take large planes, preferably jumbo jets. they are unlikely to kill so many innocents just to get at you.

assassination has a long history in america, i wouldn't be surprised by anything. and caution is the better part of valor.

[TrogL]

31. Do we absolutely HAVE to go through all this again?

The subject has been beaten to death.

This is fairly good evidence, not great, but fairly good for "pilot error". There is some weak :tinfoilhat: evidence towards a conspiracy. Neither side has sufficient proof to blow the other out of the water.

The NTSB has found nothing to support the :tinfoilhat: theories. The :tinfoilhat: people think the NTSB in on it. Hell, they think I'M in on it.

Can't we just let it rest?

[scarletwoman]

44. How does one prove "pilot error"?

Basically, all it is is a guess. The plane crashed, no mechanical reason was found, therefore the pilot(s) must have screwed up.

That's not evidence, that's just an assumption. It explains nothing, it proves nothing.

If this oh so conveniently timed crash had happened to a popular opposition government official in say, a Latin American country, folks here would nod their heads in understanding and have no trouble at all in thinking "sabotage" "assassination" -- assassination by airplane has a long history.

I'm a Minnesotan, too, and I don't know ANYONE who doesn't feel in their heart that the Wellstone plane crash was no accident. Yes, there is no hard evidence -- I would expect that any black ops team worth its salt would be able to ensure that no evidence of their work would survive the event.

Conversely, naming "pilot error" as a cause presents no real supporting evidence beyond the fact that the plane crashed. SOMETHING caused the plane to crash. If the "how" is unknowable, then the "why" and "who benefits" ought to become the focus of inquiry by default.

sw

[geek tragedy]

48. So, they fooled the NTSB and the family, but not you

Wow, conspiracy theorists really are the smartest people on earth.

Read the report from the NTSB. Their conclusions are more than idle guesswork.

Unlike the other side of the argument . . .

[scarletwoman]

54. I've read the NTSB report -- admittedly some time ago.

You needn't patronize me, I actually have a quite serviceable capacity for reasoning, critical thinking and rationality.

If it's so important for you to believe that the Wellstone crash absolutely could NOT have been the result of a malicious act, then far be it from an old skeptic like me to disturb your faith.

Apparently it must be the coincidence theorists who are "the smartest people on earth". Keeps things all nice and tidy, n'est-ce pas?

sw

[geek tragedy]

59. I'm not the smartest person on earth

But I recognize that the NTSB probably know more about determining the cause of a crash than myself or anyone I know or anyone on this site.

Just like I don't know the Sun is 93 Million miles away from Earth--but I do know that someone else does know it.

[Minstrel Boy]

63. The NTSB also says TWA Flight 800 blew up from "mechanical failure."

Do you believe that?

Do you believe such government agencies are never pressured to come to certain reassuring conclusions?

[TrogL]

58. Well that's the problem

Until such time as we get cockpit video recorders in all aircraft it will be impossible to prove.

Nevertheless, if you take a pilot who has issues, put him into an aircraft and that aircraft subsequently has a problem, it's kind of difficult to ignore those issues, at least to me.

And I do find it more satisfying than blaming it on magic rays, black ops teams or fancy electronics (on a plane that didn't have those electronics installed).

[Minstrel Boy]

36. American liberals have the worst damn luck.

Never seen anthing like it. If it's not a lone gunman, it's a plane crash. It's like you folks are jinxed or something!

Here's a lengthy thread from last Fall that gets into it. There is evidence Wellstone was accidented.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=561809&mesg_id=561809

And coming this October:

[seemslikeadream]

51. accidented and did you hear about the 3 W R Grace executives

that also were accidented soon after Wellstone?

Alchemike: Stidham, who was the director of environment health and safety at Grace's corporate headquarters, was one of three Grace workers on the flight.
Alchemike: and this...
Alchemike: http://www.turnto10.com/news/1879234/detail.html

Alchemike: Two Massachusetts business executives are among the victims of Wednesday's commuter plane crash at the airport in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Richard Lyons, 56, of Lynnfield and Joseph Spiak, 46, of Acton worked in the Cambridge office of the W.R. Grace Company. Spiak was a general manager and Lyons the company's global safety manager.
Alchemike: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/080400-02.htm

Alchemike: Although Halliburton is an enormous operation with more than 100,000 employees in 120 countries, it is a relatively small player when it comes to asbestos litigation, at least when compared with W.R. Grace & Co., GAF and the Johns Manville Corp. Nevertheless, Halliburton has spent $99 million to settle or dispose of 129,650 asbestos suits, according to company records.
Alchemike: http://home.columbus.rr.com/lfairban/Pages/Grace.htm


http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/alchenc.htm

[seemslikeadream]

52. Very interesting man William Grace

Frederick Flick's son was close to the W.R. Grace Company, and invested over $400,000 in partnership with J. Peter Grace in the United States. During the war, W.R. Grace was accused in a military report of protecting a certain nazi Colonel Brite in Bolivia. In 1951, when the CIA smuggled Barbie out of Germany, he was sent to join the same Colonel Brite. George de Mohrenschildt was a close associate of the company's founder, William Grace.

http://parascope.com/articles/1196/nazis.htm

[seemslikeadream]

55. Reagan appointed to head the so-called "Grace Commission"

Auschwitz was intended, first and foremost, to be a synthetic rubber and synthetic fuel factory complex. The more well-known dead Jews were to be merely a byproduct. Abs had arranged the financing of its construction. In charge of synthetic rubber production was Otto Ambros, who also developed the root technology on which magnetic data storage is based. He was convicted of 25,000 counts of slavery and mass murder, and was sentenced to eight years in prison. After three and a half years, McCloy freed him. The head of the W.R. Grace & Co., J. Peter Grace (a Knight of Malta) hired Ambros as a research chemist and petitioned Congress to allow his emigration to the United States. This is the same J. Peter Grace who President Reagan appointed to head the so-called "Grace Commission" to make the United States government more "efficient."

Grace: 'I admire Ambros's integrity.'
Esquire, 12/19/78

Hermann Schmitz's nephew, Robert was employed by W.R. Grace & Co. in the early 1950s to help in its plans for diversification. W.R. Grace paid alleged cocaine dealer John DeLorean $25,000 a month as a consultant. Delorean advised W.R. to invest in a luxury RV project. Grace is reported to have dropped a $1,000,000 on the project. The RV never materialized.

Companies are known by the people they keep.
The Assistant Secretary of War, until 1940 was a member of the law firm of Cravath, de Gersdorff, Swain & Wood, which firm ... had been representing I.G. Farben or its affiliates in the United States. It may appear to be a coincidence that Mr. McCloy should have turned up in the War Department in 1941 in a position in which he could speak with authority on such matters as handling the destruction of that mainstay of Germany's war potential I.G. Farben.
Treason's Peace, by Howard Watson Armbruster, Beechurst Press, New York, 1947, p 386


http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:IILtVMDBCGQJ:www.transbay.net/~nessie/Pages/company.html+More+on+Otto+Ambros,+Nazi+slave+camp+manager,+and+advisor+to+W.R.+Grace,+originator+of+Jiffy+Lube+dialysis+&hl=en

[Doctor_J]

56. thumb through this link

http://www.bushbodycount.com/

lots of accidents befall enemies of the BFEE

[truth2power]

57. BFEE

Yes, I think the Bushies had something to do with it. Can I prove it? Of course not. Just too conveeenient! What lucky duckies they are!

I'm reading Farewell America , first published in Europe in 1968. About the Kennedy assassination. I never believed, from day one that Oswald did it. This book lays it all out, credibly. "The Committee" as they're called....four assassins to do the job and others to clean up after them.

The power elite are capable of ANYTHING. Guess that makes me a :tinfoilhat:. Whatever...

[eridani]

61. Can't really tell

Small planes are not safe transportation. Foul play is just about impossible to prove.

[enki23]

64. yes, it was an accident. yes, it was an accident.

seriously now, please. it was an accident. rightwingers sometimes benefit from chance occurrences. it happens. a lot.

[Seabiscuit]

67. No more an accident than

JFK Jr.'s planecrash, or the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK. Some of these ultra rightwing "hatriots" know no bounds.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

70. VermontDem2004 Mon Oct-20-03 Poll question: The Paul Wellstone crash was..

Poll result (526 votes)
An Unfortanate Accident (147 votes, 28%) Vote
Planned and Executed by the Bush Adminstration or by someone who wanted to see Wellstone dead (304 votes, 58%) Vote
Undecided (75 votes, 14%) Vote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=561809#562730

great thread 453 replies