DU opinions on affirmative action.

[usregimechange]

Is it reverse discrimination? Do the means justify the ends? Is it the least we can do? Necessary for a diverse student body? Needed to lessen the cost of discrimination?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

1. I have mixed feelings about this...

I understand the need, Lord knows the playing field isn't level. On the other hand as a Caucasian male I feel like I'm being punished for the ignorance of others.

[mopinko]

4. punished how?

by not letting you take something that was not yours? your daddy got away with it, so you should?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

7. I don't see how I'm getting away with anything

I worked hard for my education, I earned my degree (and I'm still unemployed, thank you)

[mopinko]

10. then explain

punished how?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

11. Punished in that favoritism can be used against me based on AA

Just as the reverse is true, in the name of "leveling the playing field"...Again, I do think it's needed.. I just look forward to when it is not.

[mopinko]

14. are you entitled to favoritism?

see, it's not "your" job/place/whatever. it's A spot, paid for with public money, awarded fairly. without bias, one way or the other. it's not biased for a black person, or against a white person. it's just fair. and if only white guys get them, that means it's not fair. if you have to knock people on the head to make sure they are fair, you do. that doesn't mean that it isn't fair, that just means it's hard to make people be fair.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

15. uhmm.. did I say I was entitled to favoritism?

Did I even say I was against AA? What I'm saying is when the playing field is leveled, I'm techinically in the demographic that gets "leveled". Come to my crappy apartment sometime and see if I'm "priveledged". I understand the need and support it, I just wish there wasn't a need.

What do you want, a cookie?

[mopinko]

21. didn't mean to make it personal

just that you are spouting the usual argument. and you are not answering mine.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

I thought I answered the argument

I am one of those "white guys" hence the mixed feelings.

[mopinko]

24. you didn't really

i want to know how you can lose something that does not belong to you.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

28. I wouldn't say I've lost something

Being as one of those "fat white guys" you like to describe, I would say that it is my demographic in the cross-hairs. If it were yours (and I suppose it could be), wouldn't you/do you feel a conflict? I would prefer (as I think we all would), that steps like these are not needed. I still support AA, I think it's a good thing, and I think the bigger offense is the very fact that it IS needed.

I guess the whole thing boils down to, I don't like being singled out for being Caucasian any more than anyone else is singled out for being any other race/gender. Ideally, that means going strictly by qualifications. I'd much prefer that race/gender were not considered at all in the hiring/admissions process. We're not in an ideal world (hence my support for AA), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer the ideal.

Are we clear?

[mopinko]

29. well

there are a lot of things that i could get my hands on that don't belong to me. i don't feel like i am missing anything because i don't. i guess once in a while things drop in my lap, and i feel lucky. but my lap don't feel empty when they don't. i like my clean conscience.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

32. I wouldn't attribute affirmative action

as the reason why you don't have a job. It is more likely that the crappy economy is the reason you don't have a job.

I'm a woman with a computer engineering degree. There have always been very few women involved in engineering disciplines. However, I am unemployed. Many of our good (high-tech) jobs are being sent over seas. And I have had some interviews... I think most employers are looking for experienced employees (not entry level, which is what I would be). They can be selective like this now that there are so many unemployed professionals out there. I don't think the affirmative action thing ever comes into play.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. In what way? Have you ever actually LOST a job or opportunity

to a minority or a woman SOLELY on the basis of gender or race?

[POed_Ex_Repub]

6. Not that I'm aware of

But the possibility.. well, I guess that's the whole thing on the other side isn't it? Like I said, I do think it's needed. I'm just looking forward to the day that it's not. *and we can go strictly by qualifications"*

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. OK but you DO realize my BIGGEST complaint is this?

Many white males raise your argument while none EVER have lost a thing, whereas, nearly any woman or minority in the workplace CAN cite ample evidence of discrimination, be it wages, passed up for advancement, left out of events, or simply not being hired...so on the ONE side we have FEAR of a consequence and on the other side we have actual discrimination...I believe a compelling public interest still exists in protecting women and minorities from this treatment.

I do believe one day it won't matter or be necessary but I think that is still decades away.

(BTW..wasn't flaming you)

[POed_Ex_Repub]

20. Didn't think you were flaming NSMA

I'm familiar enough with your posting history to know you're debating the message *and not digging at the messenger*

And I do agree that the interest of the minority needs to be protected, *and again I am FOR AA*. I'm just saying that as a Caucasian in this instance, I'm the odd person out. I understand it, I'm all for it, but strictly speaking it works against my personal interest and there's a certain amount of internal struggle that comes with that.

Would you prefer I lie?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. No and I got you were for AA

but strictly speaking, it really doesn't work against your personal interest. Something only works against your personal interests if it's demonstrable ..since quotas are out of the question (constitutionally speaking and affirmed by case law)then does it not serve your best interests NOT to live in a fundamentally racist and sexist world where people are constantly out to topple you because you are perceived as controlling? Frankly, I am of the opinion that AA should be expanded to include CLASS as well as race and gender...a sentence to poverty is a sentence to poverty regardless of color...

but again, I only engaged with you because I felt you engaged in what has mostly been a myth among white males...very few have been MORE qualified and harmed by AA once the entire story is known.

[mopinko]

2. needed to prevent

the expenditure of government funds/resources in a discriminatory way. when a pattern of past discrimination is evident, goals are set to correct this error in the future.
i do not want my tax dollars spent to educate white males exclusively. or to enrich white makes through government contracts. simple as that. ain't about leveling the playing field, or paying back. it's about here and now, today, not discriminating with my money.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. How about narrowing down the question?

are you talking about government contracts? College admissions? Are we talking about race? Gender? Both?

Is there SUCH a thing as reverse discrimination? Or is there only discrimination?

Should CLASS be included in any discussions of AA?

[usregimechange]

12. open ended.... nt

[ck4829]

8. I totally support it and I'm a young white male

I know blacks, other minorities, and girls are discriminated against. I support Affirmative Action, they need it. They are capable, however the world does disriminate, and I know that I will not lose because of Affirmative Action because I haven't lost to it yet nor will I ever.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. Until racism no longer exists,

we need affirmative action. Reverse discrimination? No. When was the last time a white kid was denied admittance to a college because of the color of HIS/HER skin? No one will ever be able to convince me that racism doesn't exist to this day. Look at FL. 2000 election.

on edit....I'm a white female.

[CaTeacher]

18. I agree 100%.

Racism is so institutionalized that lots of people are not even aware of how prevalent it is. But people face it every day. We need to have VERY aggressive affirmative action policies. Any employer, school, or person who does not support these aggressive affirmative action policies should be ostracized from the community to the point where it is impossible for them to do business.

And we need to keep doing this until there is REAL equal opportunity for EVERYONE.

[fortyfeetunder]

13. Reverse discrimination on whose part?

I don't see this as a discrimination issue.

edited...some glitch...

[shugah]

17. it is probably the least we can do

reverse discrimination is a white male fantasy. affirmative action does not effectively address the wrongs of racism.

diverse student body? huh? in case anyone has not noticed, this country has a diverse student body - from elementary school on up. unless you mean college. where did all that diversity go???

the cost of discrimination cannot be lessened. those who pay the price are the victims of discrimination.

i am absolutely 100% in support of affirmative action. saying it is "the least we can do" only means that there is so much more we need to do. the playing field needs to be evened across the board.

[CaTeacher]

19. You are so right.

Fortunately, I believe that Kerry (based on his past record) will be a strong supporter of very aggressive affirmative action programs to help minorities. This is one reason I support him so enthusiastically, it will be nice to see more people of color have the opportunities that come easily to whites and Asians (particularly in the area of education).

[jdonaldball]

22. Good idea in principle but

a blunt tool in practice. Economic disadvantage and disparity is more entrenched and harder to transcend than racial disparities - although racial disparities do correlate with economic ones.
I'm also more sympathetic to the plight of American Blacks generally than to the plight of American women generally, by which I mean there are plenty of economically advantaged women (proportionally) who do not need much of a hand up, least of all those women from elite White families etc.
Affirmative action for Jenna Bush? I don't think so. For poor Black women? Yes, more please.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. But that is because women took the ball and ran with it

starting in the 60's...prior to that time..women were as discriminated against in college admissions as minorities..now, in fact, it is white males dropping behind on test scores..but for entirely different reasons. And in the 60's and 70's, a wealthy women dumped by her husband was no more economically advantaged than a poor one.

[mopinko]

26. and there are still plenty of jobs that women

cannot get. i worked construction for a while, and the number of women in blue collar trades has remained pretty much unchanged. they are run out of the business in ugly, ugly ways. believe me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. Yeah I know..in my business (labor) I see many many instances

of discrimination but most don't fall under AA issues.

[mopinko]

30. even when they do

it don't help.

[jdonaldball]

31. Agreed, still too much gender discrimination out there

and so yes I do see some value in some kind of structured remedies for this. Just saying that in practice, affirmative action has often been a blunt and clumsy tool, especially when it benefits White women from relatively privileged backgrounds. That does happen, and it is noticed by less privileged women (or at least I've met some who have noticed this. Not that my experience is definitive of course.)
I'd just suggest that economic disadvantage should be considered along with race and gender.