Enough with Military Service!

[RowWellandLive]

I respect that John Kerry volunteered and was a Viet Nam war hero. That's says something about the man and good for him. It was nice to see his Band of Brothers. Now here come the "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" who hate him. There are enough possible motives on both sides to discredit the others' intentions and I don't want to get lost in that debate.

The whole country knows about Kerry's war service. I think it's time he stopped talking about it. It's verging on boasting and becoming a parody. We know John.

I didn't vote for Dole against Clinton because he served. Same with the 1st Bush. If Dean was our nominee would we support him any less? If military service is now a prerequisite Clinton would not have been elected and we are ruling out a future generation of potential leaders who have not enlisted.

I don't believe a President needs to have served to be CIC. Many have not. We've established that Kerry was heroic 30 years ago. OK, that's great. Let's now move past that and talk about all the important issues. If we harp on Bush's record vs. Kerry's service too much I worry about the standard we are setting.

Ready to get flamed (ducking).

[Dookus]

1. well

one of the basic tenets of marketing is differentiating yourself from the competition. This is an area that really separates him from Bush/Cheney. PLUS, in times of war, people WANT a CiC with military experience.

He should keep talking about it. It's perfectly relevant to the campaign.

[eyesroll]

2. It's not the service or lack of it -- it's how they've handled it since

If Bush was forthcoming ("Look, I was a kid, I was scared, I didn't want to go"), and had a reasonable explanation for his Guard absence instead of all of this avoidance and hedging, this would be a non-issue.

[RowWellandLive]

12. It would still be an issue I think

perhaps not quite as big. Even if there was no Guard absence it would still be an issue.

[Spinzonner]

3. No Flame

It's mainly an issue and a tactic because Bush portrays himself as a 'war president'. he is abusing the military for political purposes, and insists that his time in the Texas National Guard didnt involve going AWOL.

Were it not for those issues, I dont think it would be a part of the campaign.

[Mikimouse]

4. I think that we have to put the motives in perspective...

The repubs started this crap with the contrived bullshit about * and his glorious service, topped off by his equally glorious arrival on the Lincoln. Add to that, the constant barrage of descriptions of everyone but * as anti-American, unpatriotic, etc. That hateful and phoney administration made it necessary to distance Kerry from *, from a military service standpoint.

[BeatleBoot]

5. I say full steam ahead!

[soothsayer]

6. I think it's good to get it out there and out of the way, only cuz shrub

will try to make the "don't change horses in the middle of a stream" argument, saying that HE is now an experienced warfighter. So this deflates his ability to do that.

Also, I really do think this could have some sort of healing effect on the country's vietnam wounds. He's an honorable guy who came out of fighting there, and that reflects well on all the other soldiers who were there.

BUT...I agree with you that once the point has been made that the guy has the goods in terms of his military service--and dumbya DOESN'T---there's no need to keep stressing it.

[tabasco]

7. It's a matter of character.

You can't and shouldn't "move past" a man's character. The Bush cabal would like us to "move past" Bush's despicable past. But past conduct is still the best indicator of how someone will perform in the future.

[RowWellandLive]

15. Does someone have bad character

or less character if they didn't serve? I never held it against Clinton and didn't think Dole had better character.

This is not to say I don't think Kerry doesn't have better character then Bush. I just don't care about Viet Nam. That war was even more bogus then Iraq and I can totally understand avoiding it in any way available to you. I'm really at a loss to understand why Kerry would volunteer at all. It was noble and heroic, but if he had been killed it would have been a complete waste. I certainly question those who volunteer to fight in this current war. Why???

[Kinkistyle]

36. Risked his life to save his crewmates and other soldiers. HES A HERO.

Thats courage! Thats decisive action and quick-thinking under the scariest pressure you can be put under! Look, I don't give 2 shits whether the candidate served in a war or not. (Unless the candidate is a chickenhawk). Clinton didn't serve and I thought he was fine as a commander-in-chief.

But Kerry was heroic! He is a hero and why wouldn't you push that angle? When you describe Superman, do you emphasize the fact that he was a darn good newspaper reporter?

[blm]

37. BUSH WENT AWOL WHILE WORKING CLASS KIDS WERE SERVING AND DYING

in disproportionate numbers.

[tabasco]

39. Did I say that? I said past conduct is an indicator of character.

- Character traits can be observed by behavior in or out of military service. But dangerous or difficult circumstances really seems to separate those with strong character from all the rest.
- During the Vietnam draft, potential draftees had a choice. Avoid military service or serve. If you avoided service, you lived with the knowledge that someone went in your place. Keep in mind that Vietnam looked more like Korea in those days than it does now. The North Vietnamese really did some atrocious things, which built American opinion that we had to help the South.
- Bushed avoided hazardous military service by securing a spot in the National Guard, using family connections, when the waiting list was YEARS long. If I had spoken with a NG recruiter at that time, I would have been referred to the active duty recruiters. Thanks to Bush, someone else had to go active duty. Bush didn't even feel the obligation to complete his service requirement.
- Kerry felt an obligation to himself and his country. He volunteered for combat duty and performed it in a commendable manner. Nobody had to go active duty or go to Nam because Kerry avoided service.
- These two men were in similar circumstances. Both of these men found themselves in dangerous times and they acted differently.
- I submit Kerry's conduct indicates a greater sense of duty,responsibility, patriotism and courage.
Kerry's conduct in opposing the war after he returned displays enormous moral courage. Bush's hawkish conduct while avoiding dangerous service indicates rank hypocrisy.
- I expect Kerry to apply his enormous ability and character to the huge problems in this country. I would expect Bush to continue displaying an utter lack of character or leadership as he has done in the past.
- I greatly admire and fully supported President Clinton. His entire 8-years I was active duty Army. He avoided military service but displayed incredibly positive character traits by overcoming a difficult background and overachieving through sheer hard work.
- CHARACTER is what matters, not military service. It just happens that the military is a place where character or lack thereof becomes clear.

[supernova]

8. Well, hang on to your peace signs

because you're going to be hearing about it from now until the election.

And yes, it's really only because the repubs have made it an issue. I mean, JK hasn't brought out that old war horse story in the 20 years he's been in the Senate. He's only doing now because it's a good tactic.

[salonghorn70]

9. There Is a Strong on National Security Tie In

Many Voters will view a vet with Kerry's record as someone who will be strong on national security.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. After you run a successful Presidential campaign, I will value your advice

on this subject.

[RowWellandLive]

18. Touche

n/t

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tritsofme]

14. Umm I believe the poster said: "I didn't vote for Dole...." nt

[DemoTex]

20. On re-read it still wasn't clear, but in the spirit of Emily Litella ...

Nevermind.

[RowWellandLive]

21. I did not vote for either one

I voted for Clinton in '96 and cast a '92 Perot vote for reasons that now seem stupid. I just don't care about military service and I worry about setting a precedent excluding great people that haven't served.

Go point your freeper sensor elsewhere. Get my drift?

On edit, sorry I now see your reply.

[DemoTex]

27. I apologize to you, sir.

I was wrong. I am sorry.

Mac

[RowWellandLive]

33. Not a sir

apology accepted.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Good then duck because here I come

It isn't lost on me that when you first came to DU you posted in ATA and asked if you would be welcome being a "Zell Miller Democrat" which we are all now clear is no Democrat at all.

You heartily admit to voting for Dole over Clinton and Bush 1 over Clinton.

Your Swift Boat knowledge impresses me even if you don't know that that group of people was NOT on Kerry's swift boat and the people who were were there last night.

Now...he covered a number of issues last night...seemed the one that the guy in the flight suit that was falling drunk off of barstools had pinned on him was this notion of being "weak on security." That issue of course was being pinned WHILE he was busy scarring the piss out of the rest of the country with color codes, vague threats and his idiotic cowboy talk.

I believe planty of issues were covered in Kerry's speech last night...fair trade (which affects jobs), a subtle hint toward regulations to protect people from greedy opportunists, healthcare ( a pressing issue for many families) and recovering from the most irresponsible stewards of our fiscal well being since...well.... Reagan.


What other issues are lacking for you?

[RowWellandLive]

25. I was a Zell Miller Democrat

but no more. I'm still a Ben Nelson, John Breaux type though. Again, I DID NOT vote for Dole or Bush 1.

I do not care about the Swift Boat people and who served with him. They all have possible motives to be for or against him. I don't care.

I care about trade, jobs, salaries, health care, and education. He did talk about those issues. I just hope he keeps talking about them and move past Viet Nam and whose tougher. Does it really matter if he was in Viet Nam or not?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. What's so great about Breaux? That he protects the plastic industry

at the expense of the health and water quality of his state without brining a single new industry there? That he votes for tax cuts for people who need it least? Same with Ben Nelson...these are senators that can be counted on to vote with Republicans, who never saw a tax cut they didn't swoon over while the general health of populations and communities suffer...what's to love about Democrats that really are NOT FOR the working class?

Again....there was this chimp in a monkey suit that sent a bunch of people off to a poorly planned war that didn't need to occur...Kerry MADE a case for his leadership VIA that issue and VIA the military leaders that can no longer keep silent while our troops fight a guerilla war that was NOT supposed to be and that they were NOT trained for...sorry it bores you...it's a big fucking deal.

[RowWellandLive]

41. I like tax cuts

and generally "swoon" over most of them. That's mostly what makes me a conservative Dem and not a liberal. What exactly is the "working class" as defined by salary? However, that is not what this thread is about. My fiscal policy preference has nothing to do with my views on military service. Another poster was trying to discredit me based on my other opinions so I responded.

This war was poorly planned, we agree. Maybe Kerry should have questioned this BEFORE he voted for it. His Viet Nam War record does not have anything to do with the current reality.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Maybe Breaux should have too

His Viet Nam experience has EVERYTHING to do with how we react to a quagmire...and he did question it....btw...would the war NOT have happened had he voted differently?

I like tax cuts too...just not at the expense of education, roads and other infrastructure or those in the middle and working class...I really don't see why millionaires need tax cuts when they aren't pumping that money back into our economy..I favor progressive taxes which still allow the rich to live well while giving the poor a fighting chance...after all...isn't it good for business if MORE THAN JUST THE WEALTHY can afford their wares?

[RowWellandLive]

52. Just because he wasn't the deciding vote

does in no way excuse it. That's a complete cop out. If he had such deep questions he should have taken a stand and voted against it. No matter if it affected the outcome or not. You do not need Viet Nam experience to react to a quagmire. People with Viet Nam experience, and those without, are on both sides of the issue.

Tax cuts are another issue. I don't care about millionaires but please understand that they are not affected much if taxes go up because of their complex tax shelters and expensive accountants. What I object to is a tax code that rewards behavior deemed "worthy" by the government such as having children or owning a home. Single, childless, middle class renters are hurt more then millionaires. I also object to the vast unchecked government waste of our tax dollars and ridiculous "pork barrel" spending that always Senators like Stevens of Alaska and Byrd of West Virginia to spend millions of dollars on projects that benefit few so that they can be re-elected instead of truly helping those in need.

But can we talk about tax policy another time and stick to the topic at hand?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. NO we can't because there you go slamming Dems again while ignoring

Trent Lott pushing through a 4 billion dollar program that the Navy didn't want so he could bring the bacon home too...

If this is such an issue for you and Kerry's service matters not..then let's simply ask right now...who do yoou trust to successfully free us from the mess in Iraq...John Kerry with a multilateral approach? OR George Bush with the coalition of the bribed?

BTW, tax breaks for families makes sense even though I am childless unless you think only the rich should be able to reproduce.

[RowWellandLive]

68. I brought up Stevens

as my Republican representative of bringing home the bacon. Are you so dense that you think that just because I did not name Lott as my Republican example I am slamming Dems? Stevens is a Republican and one of the worst offenders. Bringing home the "bacon" to ensure perpetual re-election is a staple on both sides of the aisle. There are many egregious examples that I did not mention. Lott included.

I do not trust Kerry or Bush to free us from the mess in Iraq. I think the "multilateral" approach is as completely a toothless, non existent fantasy as the "coalition of the willing" is. We are going it alone no matter who is elected and I can see no difference as to when we become disengaged. Both of them have vowed to see it through.

[jdj]

35. um, we're at war.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

I guess it matters to the parents of these soldiers whether or not a man cares about the eventual fate of their child.


This, from the link above, is just the news from today.


07/30/04 DOD: Soldier Killed on 29th Is Identified
Spc. Joseph F. Herndon, II, 21, of Derby, Kan., died July 29, in Hawijah, Iraq, when he was shot while on guard duty.
07/30/04 DOD: Soldier Killed on 28th Is Identified
Pfc. Ken W. Leisten, 20, of Cornelius, Ore., died July 28, in Taji, Iraq, when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device.
07/30/04 AP: NATO Agrees to Start Training Iraq Forces
NATO nations agreed Friday to begin training Iraqi forces, a NATO official said. No details of the agreement were immediately available.
07/30/04 News-Review: Roseburg soldier comes home with shrapnel wounds
Bright was riding atop a Humvee in search of a weapons cache northwest of Baghdad when an improvised explosive device detonated in front of the vehicle.
07/30/04 AP: CT guard unit heading home from Iraq
Two Army Reserve units from New England whose tours were extended in Iraq are set land on home soil today after more than a year overseas.
07/30/04 Al Jazeera: Iraqi religious leaders oppose Muslim force
Iraqi Muslim religious leaders on Friday preached against the Saudi proposal to send a Arab or Muslim force to Iraq.
07/30/04 Cody Enterprise: Soldier with Clark youth ranch ties killed in Iraq
Jerry Schneider could hear the resolve in Collier Barcus' voice when the 21-year-old left a message on his answering machine last month.
07/30/04 VNA: Malaysia not to send troops to Iraq
Malaysian troops will not join a Muslim security force for Iraq, but the country will not discourage other Muslim countries from doing so, local media reported.
07/30/04 NDTV: Iraqi captors extend deadline indefinitely
In a major relief to the families of three Indians being held hostage in Iraq, the Iraqi group Black Banners Battalion has lifted the 8:30 pm (IST) deadline to kill one of the hostages.
07/30/04 AP: Commanders get immunity in Iraq case
Three Army commanders were granted immunity from prosecution Friday in the case of two Iraqi civilians forced to jump from a bridge. One of the two allegedly died.
07/30/04 KUNA: Four car-explosions in Iraq
Two people sustained injury from a car-blast on ?Friday near a hospital close to a US military base, and a further three ?car-blasts took place at the Green Zone here.?
07/30/04 The Champlain Channel: Another Vermonter Dies In Iraq
Lt. Col. David Greene, a Marine Corps helicopter pilot from Shelburne, is among the highest ranking officers to die since the war began.
07/30/04 AP: Soldier Found Guilty in Carjacking Case
A soldier was convicted of stealing an Iraqi sheik's sport-utility vehicle at gunpoint, but probably won't be spending any time behind bars.
07/30/04 The Oregonian: Roadside explosion kills 20-year-old Oregonian
Pfc. Ken W. Leisten, 20, was killed Wednesday while on patrol in Taji, Iraq, said Col. Mike Caldwell of the Oregon Guard.
07/30/04 AFP: Kidnapped, missing foreigners in Iraq
Two Syrian truck drivers were abducted from a convoy driven by Syrians and Jordanians near the infamous Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad, a colleague was quoted as saying Friday.
07/30/04 DelcoTimes.com: Wounded returning war hero gets hearty welcome
Around 7:20 p.m. Thursday, people lined the 500 block of Grand Avenue, anxious to see Marine Cpl. Jason Michael Simms return home after being injured in Iraq 29 days ago.
07/30/04 AP: Fallujah attacks kill some 13 people, hostage given hours to live
Fighting between U.S. forces and Iraqi insurgents in the turbulent city of Fallujah killed some 13 people, officials said, while a kidnapped truck driver was given just hours to live unless the company he works for pulls out of the country
07/30/04 Novinite: Bulgarians under Fire in Iraq
The Bulgarian soldiers' base in Karbala, Kilo, came under mortar fire on Thursday night. None of the troops have been hurt...
07/30/04 Xinhuanet:

[RowWellandLive]

42. I care about the soldiers

and I didn't serve. You can believe that Bush doesn't care and Kerry does without that having anything to do with their service. Did you serve? Do you care?

[jdj]

46. It has everything to do with their service.

Bush's service was tainted with privilege from the get-go, when he jumped ahead of hundreds of other applicants to get into TANG, thanks to poppy's connections. Then of course, he didn't show up for his drug test, was grounded , and became by current definition a deserter.

Kerry volunteered to go to 'Nam, which was maybe idealistic on his part, but because of that he saw combat and death, and he witnessed the human cost of war. MacArthur: "The soldier above all others, prays for peace, because it is the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war."

Kerry knows those wounds and scars up close, unlike Bush and his crime family, for whom war is just a business venture going back four generations. And there is a HUGE bloc of voters to whom this matters. I am not in the military, but my best friend/ ex-lover is, and this year and few months has been a nightmare from hell for me waiting to see if she got called up, which she sort of did, but then her unit got disbanded and she got assigned to another one and then she "got lucky" in the sense that her some of internal organs fused together and she had to have a complete hysterectomy at 35, which put her out of commission for a while. She just completed 4 months of special training and is back on her regular reserve schedule, so the waiting game begins again. I have complete confidence Kerry will get us the hell out of this mess, because of his experience in Vietnam and his perspective on it. It show his character was in complete opposition to that of geedubya's going back to their early adult-hood.

[5thGenDemocrat]

59. I served in the US Army from 1974 to 1976

And, yes, I DO think less of Bush, Cheney and, yeah, Clinton for dodging the draft. As for you, my drill sergeant told us back at Fort Knox, "Opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one and they all stink."
Yes, I believe having a President who served in the military (and saw combat) is an important topic.
It doesn't only concern waging war -- it also ties into VA benefits and whether our veterans get any. It ties into questions about how we provide for the families of these National Guardpersons who are in Iraq or Afghanistan.
A person who has seen combat is less -- not more -- likely to lead us into preemptive wars. A commander who led troops through the singular most terrifying moments of their lives is more likely to decently treat those who bear the burden of battle than is a sociopath with the mentality of a six-year-old who likes to play dress-up in a flight suit or someone who is content to let some "lesser" do their dirty work.
My family has served in every war in this country's history, save Bush War I, including the current one.
My aunt served 23 years in the United States Air Force (including three tours in Vietnam, two at the Pentagon and two more at SAC HQ, Omaha) to protect your freedom to show your ignorance and spout your half-baked opinions and to comfortably look down your nose at those who serve all of us.
Her fiance' (an F-4 Phantom pilot) was killed over North Vietnam and she also had an abortion so as to continue serving her country. So she, unlike you, sacrificed twice in the name of duty, honor and country.
She was also one of the first dozen women drill sergeants to ever lead male recruits through Air Force basic training
Yes, service IS important to at least some of us. I don't give a damn whether you personally think Kerry is making too much of his service because he and I and millions of others know all too well what service to one's country is all about.
Kerry can present himself anyway he chooses. He served bravely in the same war he came home from and protested. That's the mark of a patriot, as far as I'm concerned. As far as your opinion, I'll just remember those words of SSG Maifeld and consider the source.
John
It's amazing how the same gutless pant-wetting wonders who choose to forget that with rights come responsibilities are all too quick to criticize those who choose to remember.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Hear hear, John!

:thumbsup:

[RoyGBiv]

16. No flames....

Just some reality.

I read an editorial posted on DU earlier today. It was written by a conservative, someone who voted for Bush in 2000. One of the final lines of the piece focused on the difference between a man who has stood face to face with another man and killed him under orders from his country and one who makes those orders but does not understand what they mean. Kerry understands what it means to kill someone; that's as blunt a statement as I can make on that. He has looked in another man's eye, and he killed him. He knows what that feels like.

Should this be the deciding factor in choosing a President? No, absolutely not. But we are in a war, no matter what we call it, and we, our country, is ordering men to kill and die. It is a war our candidate did not start, but when he is elected, he will be charged with finishing it. Since the difference between the candidates exists, it is well and good that we focus on this difference, that one knows what those orders mean, that the other has no clue and simply doesn't care.

Would I support Dean any less? No, I would not. But I understand a quality when I see it. Dean might have other qualities that Kerry does not, and were he the candidate, I would focus on them. This is one of Kerry's qualities. It will bring him votes he otherwise might not have. It will provide him with a basis from which to make certain decisions that other candidates might not have.

Kerry is the man, boys and girls. Kerry is the man. (Sorry ... obscure historical reference.)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

17. It's because the Repubs have played up that military service and

patriotism and the American flag are the exclusive province of their party. Kerry's service and bravery disproves that in an undisputable way.

Bush can't say that he was shot and and shot in a war. That he saved anyone's life, personally. That he was decorated, or that he even showed up for the appointed service.

So, no, they should not let go of it.

The whole point of the "band of brothers" is--can Bush even produce anyone who SAW him during his disputed service? Much less anyone whose life he saved.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

19. I agree

we know about it. Maybe some people living under rocks don't, but most of us, even the apolitical who just catch a word or two of the news know.

Now just let it stand for what it is.

I read a long article in the Dallas Observer about this Swift Boats for Truth group and they are freaking dispicable. They are backed by GOP money to try and take down Kerry and people like me sit there wondering why they have such a bad case of sour grapes. That is going to backfire for bush. It makes them look even pettier than they already looked. Assholes.

[LiberalTechie1337]

22. After talking w/ my father last night, you might be right

When my dad saw the beginning of Kerry's speech last night, he said that Kerry needs to stop "pushing all of this Vietnam shit" (my dad is a very frank person who speaks his mind). My father is an undecided, and his opinion could very well represent many crucial undecided voters

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

23. So what, you are worried he is going to vote Bush because of Kerry

pushing his Vietnam service too much? If he was going to do that, for that reason, then he was going to do it anyway and there's not hope for it.

[jdj]

24. in this election when we have a pres. who was awol sending kids

off to die, it matters.

In previous elections? Not so much. Bush 1 didn't harp on it as much with Clinton probably because all his mates got killed,

[Aidoneus]

26. war *hero*?

It's a big distraction from you point you mean to make, and for that I'm not sorry, I just don't see the heroic nature of volunteering to shoot people in a place he doesn't belong. If "little" points as that are conceded, there's no point to the rest of it.

flamed from a direction you weren't expecting?

[jdj]

28. o.k.

I did get very uneasy in one of the speeches when they went on about the racial diversity, it seemed like the last race they mentioned was asian, then they launched into a story about Kerry turning his swiftboat into the fire and killing vc's. It was weird.

But I am sure Kerry can relate to how these men and women who served in Iraq feel, I think his quote "how can you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake" is the one that applies here, but they are avoiding that whole issue.

[RowWellandLive]

30. Wow, getting it from all sides!

He was heroic when he pulled that guy out of the water risking his own life. I do see your point however. Good post.

[sampsonblk]

29. It makes a contrast vs the chickenhawks

Otherwise, he wouldn't be harping on it. Let's remember that Kerry has run for Pres before, and didn't Vietnam us to death. This is just to make the contrast - and what a contrast it is!

I'm sick of it too, but the swing voters appear to have been uh... swung by it. If it works, then I am for it.

[QC]

32. I know this might come as a terrible shock, but...

politicians try to get people to vote for them. One way they do this is by contrasting their strengths to their opponents' corresponding weaknesses.

In Bush's case, all his John Wayne talk can't quite conceal the fact that when his own chance to serve came along, he tucked his tail under and ran away. So it is not surprising that Kerry would want to contrast his own exemplary service record to Bush's cowardice.

That's why he talks about it so much. Well, that and the fact that the Republicans have managed to convince about half the country that Democrats can't do national security. (That would come as a terrible shock to old cold warriors like Harry Truman, John Kennedy, and Henry Jackson if they were still around.)

Besides, not everyone is as obsessed with politics as we are here. Yes, we've heard all their speeches a million times and know everything about them, but most people haven't. For many people tuning in last night, it was their first real look at John Kerry.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

38. "Brave, brave, Sir shrubbin!"

"When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled,
Brave, brave, Sir Shrubbin!"

[jdj]

40. According to Carville, there are 50 million voters in this

country with ties to the military in some way, either enlisted or related to an enlistee. So military service matters one hell of alot.

[blm]

34. Bush didn't JUST not go...HE WENT AWOL!

Big fuckin' difference. Especially when it was a disproportionate number of working class kids doing most of the serving and most of the dying.

I pity anyone who doesn't GET that.

It's called Character.

[RowWellandLive]

45. Oh please!

Pity me all you want but I don't really care if Bush didn't fulfill his Alabama National Guard requirements. It's not like that was a real danger to him anyway. Even if he wasn't AWOL there would be the comparison between the safe Guard and Kerry's service. I don't care.

Does Bill Clinton have any less character because he didn't serve in any way? Not to me. There is an argument that some Guard service is better then no service.

Viet Nam was a travesty and the way rich kids got out of it and poor kids couldn't was a disgrace. I can't say I blamed them though. That war was completely bogus and I can understand what anybody chose during that era. It has no real bearing on true character in my opinion.

One does not need to have personally served to deeply care about decisions they make to go or not go to war and risk young lives. Oliver North served. Would you rather have him make these decisions then a Bill Clinton or a Howard Dean?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Wow you are just all over the place on this

have fun for a brief while

[GaInGrEEn]

49. What are you talking about?

???

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. I'm talking about you calling Kerry a war criminal in one breath

and defending AWOL Bush in another....

[bpilgrim]

50. AWOL in a time of war can get you sentenced to DEATH

In the U.S. military, a person becomes AWOL when he or she is absent from their post without a valid pass or leave. That person is dropped from their unit rolls after 30 days and is listed as a deserter.
..... Click the link for more information.
such as in the execution of Private Eddie Slovik

Eddie Slovik (February 18, 1920 - January 31, 1945), a private in the United States Army, was the first United States soldier to be executed for desertion since the American Civil War. 21049 soldiers were sentenced for desertion during WWII, 49 to death, but only Slovik's death sentence was carried out. There have since been no executions for desertion in the US armed forces.

more...
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/execution%20by%20firing%20squad

it appears to be a very big deal t some.

peace

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

75. oh, really... there is no AWOL in the NG your friends tell you?

even in a time of WAR?

NEWS FLASH: there are NO records that he made up his time 'off'.

peace

[RowWellandLive]

76. Who really cares?

Honestly. Those who would put his National Guard Service and whether he technically fulfilled his service in Alabama under the microscope, are the same people who would belittle and ridicule his National Guard Service even if his records were spotless and impeccable. If he fulfilled his service w/o question it will still be negatively compared to the honorable service of John Kerry. Let's get real.

Kerry was nominated over Dean, Edwards , and the others simply due to his war heroism and nothing else. Dems think that this record will inoculate him against being weak on the war on terror.

Most Americans are smart enough to know that past military/war experience has much less to do on ones future perspective and behavior then a person's deep felt heart felt beliefs. At least I hope so.

[bpilgrim]

77. voters

why do you think the right ALWAYS give lip service to service.

not to metion there is a WAR goin on in case you haven't noticed and wether YOU agree with that or not a LOT of american voters are certainly concernd.

most americans are smart enough to know that your past behavior ESPECIALLY under difcult and extreme circumstances is a good indicator of your CHARECTOR another talking point the reTHUGs promote as well.

why... bacuse it is very important to how you are precived and WILL make the difference wether you get elected or not.

kapeesh

peace

[RowWellandLive]

78. What?

Is past military service behavior a strong predictor in your eyes as to how a future leader should respond to the current threat as it relates to foreign terrorism? Or am I overreacting and we should embrace the French? Who do you want to secure your future nation, Bush or Kerry?

[bpilgrim]

79. VOTERS care

I care.

it shows that this man is a HERO and a PATRIOT who can be COUNTED ON in TERRIBLE TIMES of TROUBLE. times of LIFE-n-DEATH.

that MATTERS to me.

peace

[RowWellandLive]

80. You are oversimplifying

to a dangeros degree. Four months of service with non life threatening wounds does not a Hero or Patriot make.

A Hero is one that is silent about their heroics and lets others speak for them. A "hero" does noy invite his loyal so-called "Band of Brothers " to stand up for him when the going gets tough.

A guy that emphasizes and out right brags about his Viet Nam service is noe hero at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. Um, Row, you seem to have a higher litmus test for Dems than Bush

all the while pretending you don't...then you wonder how I dare doubt the sincerity of your advocacy.

Pity me all you want but I don't really care if Bush didn't fulfill his Alabama National Guard requirements. It's not like that was a real danger to him anyway. Even if he wasn't AWOL there would be the comparison between the safe Guard and Kerry's service. I don't care.

It was George Bush himself who hid or withheld his records while claiming he would restore honor and dignity to the White House..so yes..it is a valid point to bring up. It would be nice if the politicians addressed your concerns but from what I can glean, the only thing you seem to be passionate about is tax cuts, regardless of whether roads get paved, kids get taught, hospitals and trauma centers remain open and whether America has enough police officers on the streets,

If George Bush lied about fulfillinghis duties with the NAtional Guard during a time when he was REQUIRED to register for the draft and then covering it up, that is at least as relevant as whether Bill Clinton lied about a blow job..the ONLY person that would not see the glaring double standard would be a person who posts here under PRETENSE.

Does Bill Clinton have any less character because he didn't serve in any way? Not to me. There is an argument that some Guard service is better then no service.

And therein lies my point. You ever movable litmus test. There is certainly no evidence that Bill Clinton broke a law...going AWOL or not reporting for duty is not lawful...going to college is perfectly legal.


Viet Nam was a travesty and the way rich kids got out of it and poor kids couldn't was a disgrace. I can't say I blamed them though. That war was completely bogus and I can understand what anybody chose during that era. It has no real bearing on true character in my opinion.

Here's where it DOES have bearing on character. Kerry didn't HAVE to go as he WAS privileged and COULD have dumped it on the lowlifes..he CHOSE NOT TO feeling a sense of duty NOT to be treated differently. I want a person who REALLY DOES cross class lines to relate to the rest of us peons...wouldn't you much prefer to trust THAT person with your taxes than a guy that doesn't relate to your ordinary everyday struggles at all unless you are a bazillionaire?

One does not need to have personally served to deeply care about decisions they make to go or not go to war and risk young lives. Oliver North served. Would you rather have him make these decisions then a Bill Clinton or a Howard Dean?

Serving is NOT the issue. Lying about serving is. Nice way to muck it up though.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. riiight...I am happy with a competent president with nearly 2 decades

experience on the Foreign Relations and Senate Intelligence committee who has a sense of service to country versus an incompetent moron whose only service has been to himself at the expense of others.

[JohnKleeb]

60. I am also happy with a president who has one of the most liberal voitng

records in the senate. Remembers his friends and respects them to the highest degree. A man who was one of the first politicans to come out in favor of gay rights. A man who knows how to win. Thats John Kerry and I am sticking with him.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnKleeb]

65. Yes he opposes gay marriage as do many

but he was one of the first people to support gay rights in the senate.

[RowWellandLive]

69. You are mucking it up

not me.

First of all I care a lot more about whether kids get taught then tax cuts, I just don't simplistically believe that more taxes = better education and vice versa. But that's not the issue here.

I think you are the one with the ever movable litmus test, not me. In one breath your concern is only about character, in the other breath it is only about breaking the law.

Do you not believe that an honest person can break an unjust law and still have character? Do you also believe that a person who behaves in a dishonest, disingenuous, cowardly manner retains his character simply because he adhears to the letter of the law?

I am not referring to any specific Clinton, Bush, Kerry example, or any other particular person here. I simply think that you are tailoring your argument to a narrow set of facts for a certain purpose that has the net effect of being in no way persuasive. It's as if you would just as easily argue the other side if it fit your present set of facts.

[tblue37]

62. The Viet Nam War was certainly bogus,

but Bush supported it, even as he dodged service in it.

[GaInGrEEn]

64. true

true

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

66. Why don't you go shill for your candidate somewhere else?

[JohnKleeb]

67. why dont people realize that

Kerry came home and became an opponent of that war, he talks of his war experience becasue that helped him become the man he is.

[JohnKleeb]

57. Kerry's service has taught him the values

He still has today, thats why he emphaises it, those guys are some of his best friends, and he will never ever forget them

[RowWellandLive]

70. Can we please just agree

that one does not need to have served to have values that enable him or her to make wise and just decisions on when/where/how and if we should go to war. Military service is not required to feel the deep responsibility to make the call that a war where young Americans will certainly die is necessary. That is all I am saying.

Kerry has this experience which is probably the most important factor in his being chosen as our nominee. I am fearful of future disqualifications of those with no military service because they some how may "lack" the values that enable them to make life or death go to war or not decisions. I just don't think anyone here truly believes that this experience is necessary to a CIC.

[JohnKleeb]

71. its not

but it sure does make me appreciate who Kerry is a lot more. They're never gonna make military experience a priority, I never said we should only nominate a guy with military experience, I said his military experience is used because it shaped him and it means a lot to who he is.

[RowWellandLive]

73. You've got it in the right perspective

It obviously did shape Kerry in to who he is today and makes me personally appreciate him more for his perspective. All I want to emphasize is that there is a danger in playing this up too much. A person can be more worthy and greater without military experience then one who has it. We don't want to ever put ourselves in the position of a military hawk Republican having the advantage over a clear thinking non-serving Democrat, do we?

Kerry is teetering on the edge of having his war experience becoming an over boasting, bragging, self parody of "I won 3 purple hearts so elect me" sort of satire.

[fujiyama]

82. I understand what you're getting at

and it makes sense, but I think the speech was much more than about his service alone. I don't really think he spent quite as much on it as some are saying (many seem to have been pleased with it). He did go quite indepth (about as much as would be expected in a 45 min speech) regarding his policy plans as well and made a distinction on many policy issues - he discussed taxes, trade, the environment, and focused on foreign policy as well (Iraq, terrorism, and building alliances).

Now, I'll make it clear. I appreciate John Kerry's service as much anyone could. He served honorably and was awarded for it. It was an experience that shaped his life and changed his perspective. It's understandably very important to him. I do share some of your concerns about it becoming a parody like the jibjab comic. Here too lies the difference. It shows that as a young PRIVELAGED man, he chose to volunteer even while he had disagreements. Therein lies the main contrast between Bush and Kerry. Kerry had a sense of duty to serve his country. He did so.

He wanted to point out that he risked his life for his country in war, and he would be ready to use that force again when needed.

He wanted it to be known that he understood what it means to be out there and that the US would not fight wars when they aren't necessary because he understands what it's like to be there.

I know many can't get over the IWR vote and for a while it really frustrated me, but Kerry has addressed it many times. It was ultimately with Bush that the authority laid. Kerry expected Bush to let the inspectors do their work. Bush didn't. I'm not going to say it was good judgement voting for it. No it wasn't. Bush simply shouldn't have been trusted.

Still I agree that there is a potential that this can be overplayed. I don't think he's done it too much in his speech (and his ads only mention it once). I also hope he can start focusing on his investigations in the senate and the knowledge and wisdom that time has given him. You also may have noticed that a large part was dedicated to economic and domestic policy. There was a good amount of populism in there. These are issues where democrats generally beat republicans.

BTW, I heard Clinton himself make a statement that in today's atmosphere of war it would be much more difficult for someone like himself (without much FP experience and war record) to be elected. I personally don't necessarily agree with that. Several great presidents hadn't served in war. Clinton for one as you mentioned.

As for Bush's record, it speaks for its self. The Kerry campaign wasn't the one that opened it. It was MM's comment which prompted Jennings asking Clark, and from there it kept going.

[hope42mro]

72. JK's service good, since National Security is #1 issue this year

When Clinton was running America wasn't paranoid about terrorism like we are now. Sure we care about other issues like jobs, education and health care, but it's still so soon after 9/11 that we feel anxious. Now is the best time to stress that our candidate is a strong warrior and his opponent is not.
Bottom Line: Different focus for a different era.

[RowWellandLive]

74. I understand your point

but I do not agree. I would gladly vote for a competent leader such as Clinton in times like these despite his lack of military service. It is my heartfelt belief that the qualities that a good leader needs to embody do not change whether we are at war or not.

If someone as good as Clinton came along now with the same attributes and distractions, would you discourage his candidacy because there was "a different focus for a different era"?

Great leaders are great leaders, despite the current conditions. And past military service does not automatically make one a strong warrior and lack of service does not make someone a weak warrior. We need to understand that.

[Lerkfish]

81. the problem is,

...that the republithugs keep making it an issue, and they were the first to launch that salvo, with the Hanoi Jane connections faked photo and his anti-war activism (that wasn't fake).
If Kerry does not challenge these attacks on his character, then they become part of the collective perceived "fact".
He can either complain about being unfairly targeted (that's one strategy), or he can take the higher road and simply explain his contribution to the military, as well as his opposition the reasons for Vietnam, lay it all out on the table...

The problem is, the republithugs want to continue to accuse him of being a traitor, but when he corrects them, they say they're tired of hearing about his medals.

classic passive aggressive baiting

[JI7]

83. it has nothing to do with military service being a requirement

it has to do with showing who is the better candidate of those running. if dean, edwards, or someone else without military service had ended up winning they would have come up with a different strategy based on their life experience and other background to make the case for why they are a better candidate. kerry is using what he has to show he is the better candidate.