What can we do to minimize our culture of greed?

[JanMichael]

I had my periods of money lust, and did quite well (Even went to Poland and started businesses), but have gained a certain humanity back over the last three years.

Means? Living within your means? What should those "means" be? Why should they be so significantly different within one society?

What do people really need to be "happy"? And why is "Happy" such a big deal anyway? Isn't creativity more or less snuffed by this?

Safe? That makes sense. Healthy? That makes sense. But beyond that it's a very subjective thing.

Is a salary of $30k enough? $100k? Does either really matter?

Most cities "work", they really do (and if they don't where you live? Either do something about it or deal). They have to balance a budget and they usually have a 5-1 Max salary to Minimum salary arragement.

"Living Wages" for the majority and a few upper level employees make two to five times that. Basically a "Livable" ratio. Not really subject to claims of exploitation.

What the hell is my point?

I don't rightly know.

What I do know is that the consumerism that we live by doesn't appear to be very satisfying for most folks. If it was why so many "self help" books? Why Dr. Phil?!

Which things really matter to most people? Parents? Siblings? Husbands? Wives? Children? Pets? Jobs? Material possessions?!

Is it the Media that does this? Is the South really Dodge Truck Country?! Is Chevy really as solid as a rock?! Does it matter?

Give me an answer!

[RichM]

1. Everyone suffering with the guilt of filthy lucre should end it once and

for all, by selling off what you don't really need, collecting the funds, & forwarding them to me. For a very modest fee, I will be willing to take this burden off your hands, allowing you to once again breathe the fresh air of an existence untrammeled by superfluous material possessions.

[JanMichael]

2. Don't make me mad Material Girl!

:mad:

Damn! You went and did it!

I'd forward all to you but damned if I didn't get married last week and it's no longer my sole decision!

drat!

[dudeness]

4. LOL

:)

[whathappened]

3. no money is'nt the anwser

to being happy , i know alot of poor who get along just fine , wished they had more money , but do not lust it , if it comes there way they will take it and share with others , this is what money is good for , if you are happy , all the money in the world did'nt get you that way , it was just meant to be

[AP]

5. Remind people that when they do well, it's because there are

lots of different elements clicking together -- a good public education, a wealthy informed middle class to purchase your goods and services, and a government that provides and infrastructure and regulates the marketplac and gives you courts to settle your differences without resorting to, uh, self-help -- and then making sure those who do well feel good about giving a little bit of what they got (in the form of taxes) to ensure that this system can keep reproducing itself and keep producing more wealth and more innovation, spread widels and fairly.

[SharonAnn]

6. We need to understand that it's really true that

"Everybody does better when everybody does better" and "No man is an island" and then there is the New Testament stuff.

[Yentatelaventa]

7. A guarenteed shelter, food and healthcare?

Hey, what more does one need? Nevermind if someone want's more, tax them until they are equal to those they support.

Honestly, while we have the space and ability to prosper then we should until socialism and forced rationing is required. Until then then it's sex and drugs and rock-n-roll.

[JanMichael]

10. You really don't "Get" me!

That's ok though...I'm married now and don't need to do another material girl:-)

EDIT~ Read post #11 then call me: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212084#212189

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. Americans are 6% of the world's population and use 25%

of its resources.

For one to immediately dismiss this inquiry or read more into it than was suggested is either a function of not seeing that this level of use can't be sustained indefinitely or not caring if it does. The not caring underscores the level at which one no longer lives with any commitment to future generations as did the generations before this one.

[Yentatelaventa]

17. How much % does the USA contribute to charity around the world?

More or less than 25%-6% ?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. What difference does that make in a world with finite resources

you seem to be collapsing concepts here. One other point I might make is we may contribute but HOW MUCH DO WE LOCK UP THROUGH OTHER MEANS?

[JanMichael]

21. Why does the concept of proportional spending evade so many?

We spend .1% of GDP, k'?

http://www.theglobalist.com/nor/GlobalistPapers/2002/03-19-02.shtml

That's rather pathetic but toss in the ratio of Defence spending to Aid and only Greece is as pathetic.

Oh, and (usually) half of our "Foreign Aid" is military aid, so pfft:-)

[TXlib]

41. I thought we used more than 25%

[TXlib]

42. Americans are 6% of the world's population and produce >80%

of the world's serial killers.

I don't remember where I saw that, it was a few years back, and I know the number was in the 80s or 90s, but I don't remember exactly.

Kind of a sobering statistic, huh?

[TAH6988]

48. That is HIGHLY doubtful

Serial killers exsist just about everywhere.

[JanMichael]

49. Here ya' go!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/serialkillers991124.html

"But preying on children is neither new nor confined to South America. While the continent has produced notorious murderers like Lopez, an estimated 85 percent of the world’s serial killers are in the United States."

Go figure:shrug:

[TAH6988]

50. Uhhhh where is Mazza's source for his

figure in that article?

[JanMichael]

51. Am I the only one with access to Google?

You'll have to find the DOJ study yourself, I don't have the time but here's an interesting link: http://www.heritage.org/Research/SmartGrowth/wm255.cfm

Like that? The Heritage Foundation has seen it too.

This is not some great discovery, it's a well known statistic, sorry.

[QC]

8. Make greed tacky and low-class.

[JanMichael]

14. I thought it was until recently!

WTF happened?

[QC]

28. The 80s

"Greed is good."

And do you remember those popular posters of a yuppie standing in front of Porsche, captioned "Poverty Sucks"?

[JanMichael]

9. I realize that I judged the Consumerism as "Bad". Am I mistaken?

Is it really a "Good" thing that one should just embrace and fuck the rest of humanity?

Edit: Read post #11 then call me: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212084#212189

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. A humble recommendation would be to watch a couple videos

made a couple years back and shown on PBS entitled AFFLUENZA.

These are useful films for those who find themselves slaves to their penchant for greed and consumption due to being so steeped in popular culture.

One can read more about the episodes here:

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/affluenza/

Here are a couple other good areas to peruse in an inquiry.
http://www.affluenza.com/links.html

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. Unbridled greed is the root cause of just about any problem you name

When we lived in caves, a kind of instinctive proto-greed helped us put aside nuts for winter, but today greed has metastasized into something that harms, not helps.

Some have confused the profit motives and incentive aspects of capitalism with greed, until now in the United States, greed has created a market where the value of a day's work is less than the value of a day's survival - the equivalent of a nuclear bomb for an economy, and a radioactive cloud for the social fabric of a society.

It is greed that creates societies where the masses have nothing to lose, and the small elite class has to spend its money on guards and guns instead of things that would help their families and communities progress.

It is greed that forges policies that kill millions so that a few can profit.

Profit and prosperity without exploitation are possible without losing control of greed, but it would be a rough climb, since we have allowed such a large percentage of the world's resources to be consolidated into such a small (and still shrinking) number of hands.

At some point, will the instinct of species preservation kick in and catalyse a "revolution?"

We better hope so, because greed without limits is not compatible with the long-term survival of humanity.

[JanMichael]

15. You are correct. People CAN work together for profit.

http://www.bravotv.com/Queer_Eye_for_the_Straight_Guy/Photos/

And: http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/alternatives/mondragon.html

Mondragon is not perfect by any stretch but compared to the alternatives I like it.

[sweetheart]

16. but greed is good... gordon ghekko said...

I heard michael douglas in the film "wall street" explain all to clearly how greed is better.

How many boats can you water ski behind... well... hmmm... 100. 1 to ski behind and 99 to drive alongside and create wake waves to jump over. :-) (allusion to same film)

I think it a result of the extremely low levels of american education that people think they succeed off their own sweat and not at the cost of their community... but deeper down, it is not the media, rather the business schools.

In business school, teh term "shareholder value" is held as the pinnacle of all ethics. If an action increases profits it must be good for the whole community, and if not, then it is bad... and though you may scoff at the stupid illogic of this, it is indeed what is taught in business school... and you are a BAD director to act on any agency motive other than the shareholders. Customers are irrelevant, the community has no import, the government is just a burden... so when you can get the busienss schools to stop spouting republican rhetoric, you've won some more ground than is appearant in your post.

Clearly the exogenous communities affected by corporate behaviour are much more complex than simply shareholders.... but who champions the truth in schools of business fueled by extra profit donations? you guessed right... nobody.

[JanMichael]

18. True. The BS Schools teach a negative ethic. But remember Danny DeVito...

...in "Other People's Money"!

I'm paraphrasing but he said something like (To a table full of corporate attorneys), "You'd better make this deal happen because if you don't...The Commies take over...And what happen's when the Commies take over? They shoot all of the fucking lawyers (point threatenly at them) so get your shit together...NOW!"

[sweetheart]

22. lawyers are like nuclear weapons

... once you use them, if fucks everything up.".. other peoples money... memory quote.

The only real way that i is going to change is that the whole system will go bankrupt. Sadly, it will cost all of us, everything... but that is the power we now have politically. There is nothing to lose. Material power cannot oppose something not designed on its frame of reference. (democracy)

There is a way, but seriosuly business schools are the root of the wrongheadedness you mention. I got an MBA to find out how they think, and i'm tellin ya, i'm the only one in my graduating class who disagreed with the shareholder-value-is-god revalation.

[JanMichael]

23. Great quote!

I have to defend some attorneys though. My brother in law took a job with a major firm last year and he may be fired soon.

He insists on spending time with his two toddler children and almost all of his spare time is spent volunteering with Legal Aid.

He simply isn't cut out to be a litigeous corporate whore...

[Terwilliger]

19. nothing

Tomorrow people don't want to live for today. While the culture sees material possessions as the value of your worth, people will always desire more and more.

Teach your children well, and always work toward a social revolution. Then we might curb greed.

[Ein]

24. Police the Giant Corporations

Rearrange the whole spectrum of the media that focuses on practically nothing but consumerism, and envy of those who consume more.

Restore humanity and the importance of life over the mentality that what people own is more important than other people.

But then again, I'm commie pinko scum.

[maggrwaggr]

25. start with abolishing televisions -- and reducing samsara

Most people's windows to the world is their television.

Television is a media whose sole purpose is to make people feel bad about what they have and to want something else.

It's the buddhist notion of "samsara", that is, a state of being unsatisfied because one is thinking about how things could be different rather than accepting the present moment.

Television commercials support all of commercial television.

Television commercials are the purest form of samsara button-pushing the world has ever seen.

Los Angeles, where I live, is the capital of Samsara. Most rich people I know here are miserable. They all wish they could be doing something else. Everybody wants to be a screenwriter. The screenwriters who actually get successful want to be directors. Directors want to be producers, and it seems everybody wants to be an actor. Actors want to be directors, or producers, or even governors of california.

Everywhere you drive are billboards in your face telling you your life would be better, and you'd be more like these attractive people, if you identify yourself with such and such a product.

The hummers drive past you reminding you that they are indeed the biggest baddest vehicles on the road, to hell with gas mileage, gas mileage is for pussies, for people who actually count their pennies.

If you have a big house, someone has a bigger one. If you get a movie deal, someone else has a better one.

It just goes on and on and on and on ...

It's the foundation of our fuckiing culture!!!

To be unhappy, to be unsatisfied. It's the unhappy, unsatisfied people who change things, right?

It's not greed, in the old sense of the word. It's "desire". It's wishing things were different. It's wanting to "improve your life".

It really is the gas in the engine of our culture. Without it, the economy would fucking collapse.

[JanMichael]

26. Oh crap. I'm a happy, satisfied, pinko socialist.

Dammit. Won't be able to change a thing...

All kidding aside you made a great post. This "Desire" is at one time corrosive to the "Self" yet keeps this particular economic system running.

Quite the dilemma.

[JanMichael]

27. I guess only a few people recognise the problem...

...damn I wish I had another 6 pack...

Good night all.

[Ein]

33. I got it.

That greed is destructive overall, and not very moral. And we have a whole lot of it.

Her's my question with you: Doesn't it directly coincide with the form of laissez-faire Capitalism this country operates with?

[JanMichael]

47. Of course it does. A nice quote from Einstein...

"Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career."

From: http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einst.htm

[poskonig]

29. No one is forcing you to be greedy.

If you don't want to be greedy, then don't.

[JanMichael]

30. Did I say that? No.

Me, I, am fine. And you're quite free to consume as much as your little heart desires:-)

It's a macro (Societal) issue not a micro (Personal) one...

[poskonig]

31. If they are not breaking any laws,

what other people are doing economically is none of your business.

[JanMichael]

32. You seem to have missed my entire point. This is beyond current laws.

And it's too late for me to break it down into the bite-sized pieces that you seem to need to digest that.

Good night.

[poskonig]

34. I understand your point completely.

You believe that what everyone else is doing is oh-so-bad, and we need "solutions" to stop it.

I believe we should treat people over 18 as the adults they are.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Yes but treating people as the adults they are mean having them

recognize that the resources of the planet are NOT infinite. That reponsible use of our national treasures ensures viability for the future. That destabilization of other nations in order to capitalize on and usurp their resources contributes to an unsafe world and that gluttony has its downfall whether we are talking health consequences shouldered by society for gluttonous dietary habits, consequences to innocent bystanders due to gluttonous alcohol intake or consequences to our national security due to gluttonous trade policies, gluttonous desires for cheap products made by what is tantamount to slave labor or gluttonous use of fossil fuels...

Treating people like adults means having them be ADULT enough to recognize some responsibility for LIVING IN A WORLD.

[tlcandie]

36. Green Plans is a great place to start!

http://greenplans.rri.org/intro/index.html

The Netherlands and New Zealand have implemented these strategies and it IS a working success!

FSTV also has a documentary currently running titled, 'Green Plans', which is where I originally came across this information!

I'm also trying to get a copy of the documentary to the Kucinich campaign!

[JanMichael]

37. I've seen "Green Planning" before. You're right, it's a good start.

Funny you should bring that up...I'm an urban planner.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. Thanks I get FSTV...do you know when it will be replayed?

I rarely turn my TV on.

[JNelson6563]

38. I recently saw

a person out on the busiest thoroughfare holding a big sign that said:

Live more with less.

So simple and yet profound in these days. Of course it doesn't help that we have an administration that spends wrecklessly and, after horrible national emergency, urges us simply to "go shopping".

I see ugly times coming for the empire. Ugly times. For a Christian nation we sure worship stuff a lot.

Julie

[klyon]

57. You forgot the second part

Julie
I saw it Live more with less,
so more can live.

KL

[TXlib]

40. "Is the South really Dodge Truck Country?!"

I can tell you from direct experience Texas is Ford F-150, F-250, and F-350 country. And the overwhelming majority of them have clearly never been offroad or carried a heavy load.

[pizzathehut]

43. Why are the wealthiest members of congress liberal democrats.

Like Ted Kennedy?

[JanMichael]

45. My point was aimed at all involved.

Not any one particular group.

[buddhamama]

44. the quick fix society

and spiritual depletion.

if you are feeling down run to the doc get a pill and feel better. or better yet, buy something.

we no longer recognize ourselves or know ourselves.
to feel down is normal, we are human after all, the world at times should get us down, if we are thinking and compassionate. does that qualify you for pills. naw, but it is easier than dealing.
(disclaimer, obviously there are persons who really do need meds,etc,and this does not apply to them.)

don't look at me look at my care--insecurities.
it use to be that a person's character meant everything, that is no longer.

when everyone is reduced to what they do for living and how much $ they make, by way of status and 'worth' is not hard to figure out why people are insecure.

[JanMichael]

53. I can accept that description.

Maybe not so much the "Spirituality" part but perhaps that's just a semantics issue.

[leftofthedial]

46. work to end neo-capitalism

capitalism is based on the motivating power of greed--an innate acquisitiveness that people seem to have. It plays to humanities weaknesses instead of our strengths.

it is further based on the short-term exploitation of cheap resources (labor, rain forests, petroleum, minerals). these can be exploited much faster than they can be replaced. in some cases these resources are finite. Because the window imposed by neocapitalism is very short (I want a return on my investment NOW dammit!), little or no thought is given to long-term consequences.

Without capitalism, the world would be a healthier and better place.

[GZeus]

52. Ban recreational gas burning

Greed? How about the greed for burning gasoline? If there was a serious gas tax to discourage consumption and fund public transportation, then alternatives to greed would emerge.

Fewer RVs, SUVs, ATVs, and time to enjoy life. How about a picnic in town, with your community instead of burning 20, or 30, or 50 gallons to get there?

Nah, never work. Fill 'er up!!

[Tinoire]

54. Vote Kucinich n/t

[SPAZtazticman]

55. its a very big problem

as a matter of fact, the materialism and superficiality that pervades our society is one of the prime reasons that bushco and the neocons can get away with what they do. nobody cares enough to think about the issues, they only know what the mass media tells them to believe. after all, suv's are patriotic! in fact, the problem of consumerism in our society can be traced back to one source: big business. the wealthy corporations who run this country have a vested financial interest in keeping us a bunch of spending sheep, existing only to buy the products made for us in sweatshops and factories in countries who's names we can't pronounce by the working sheep of the rest of the world. the more materialistic, superficial, and artificial our culture gets, the more we spend on material goods, goods which we'll probobly replace anyway as soon as the old product went out of style. in addition, there is an added benefit to the corporations: a country whos people only care about getting themselves the newest car or fanciest house won't really put that much thought into their government, allowing the rich to gain political, as well as economic, power. I say the root of the problem is the corporate media.
However, we all have a hand in this problem as well. while corporate fat cats may be the main benificiaries of our society's unchecked materialism, they are by no means the only culprits. Materialism has become so ingrained into our culture that it has become an institution in its own right. From an early age, one message is drilled into the minds of our youth: you must make money. Sadly enough, we measure success in our society not through deeds performed, but in dollars. even in the original post that i am responding to, the writer referred to possetions as making people "happy". We have sunk very low indeed, when our only measure of happiness is wealth accumulated.

[JanMichael]

56. Ay caramba! I never meant to insinuate such a thing!

"the writer referred to possetions as making people "happy""

I can see how you may have read it that way, but cut me some slack, it was well past the 6th beer in the 6-pack.

[DarbyUSMC]

58. I don't watch the reality programs or Springer

but I know what they are. These people will do anything for money. Not even much money in some cases. I've heard that the people who go on Springer get $50 and a hotel room for a couple of days. That's it. For this they bare their dirty laundry, their souls and make themselves look pitiful.

Many people think that money is the solution to everything. I've learned the simple "the more money you have, the more you spend" scenario. If you haven't any money to speak of you have much more freedom. You don't have to worry about losing anything or people liking you for your money. If you die, the state will bury you so if you have no life insurance you don't have to save for your funeral or plot with money you don't have to spare. You pay for the roof over your head and heat. If you live in a city you don't need a car. Some of the "happiest" people I've observed have reduced their lives after years of living in the rat race. There is even a program about that on the Home and Garden network. The Good Life.

I will admit that I don't have any habits to spend money on. That has to help. Unlike many women, I hate shopping and haven't bought clothes in years. I don't cook much after 21 years of cooking for my family so now that I'm alone I don't bother. I only have to worry about myself, not even a plant or a pet. (Rules of the building where I live re: pets.)

We can blame (if we are blamers) all types of media for showing us a life that is impossible to have both money wise and reality wise. If we see enough movies and TV programs, especially the ads, we will soon be convinced that people really live this way. Rather than blaming, we can stop watching the fluff if it sets our envy genes into motion.

When it comes down to the day we are ready to check out and we look back yes, it was family, friends, funny animals on Animal Planet and little things that make life good. Three ears of wonderful sweet corn for supper, the beauty of the sky always, the wonder of it all and not knowing for sure why we're even here.

I've been on life support for sixteen years and even though I don't always remember to do it, I stop and smell the roses and look at the beauty of the land all around me. I know if you smile, people smile back. I know if you run over someone's foot with your wheelchair and are really sorry, they'll say "that's OK, I'm OK." When I look into the eyes of a primate I feel a connection. I know dogs understand when we're unhappy and feel sorry when they do something wrong. Real people, living real lives is what matters. Loving your children and not leaving them in a hot van for hours (36 cases this summer)is a sure sign that you love them. Loving your friends and giving up your time when they need an ear or a shoulder. There is life beyond what we see in fantasy or the horror and dishonor we see on the news. I'm convinced of this and am living proof that you can live on very little if you eliminate what you don't really need.

I don't know what my point is regarding your post but somehow it fits in somewhere.

[JanMichael]

59. <stunned silence>

What an amazing reply! Where does it fit in? I would guess that it fits over the whole thread.

My point was that our culture is poisoning itself and few seem to care. Or even take notice I suppose. This is beyond a Dem/Repub issue in my mind, it's systemic and needs to be addressed. Not to "Save the World" or any other such nonsense but to hope for a more Humane fabric for our society.

Do we teach cut-throat competition, and reward such behavior, or do we teach cooperation and contemplation?

I know what I believe to be the "right" way.


PS~ Thank you for sharing your own experiences. A lot of people my age, 30's, simply don't understand struggle, and how to Persevere, that worries me...

[sushi]

60. What does one need to be "Happy"?

That depends on the person. I think good health is the best thing to have. But then you need a bit of money to maintain good health. In other words money is important. How much? Human beings are strange - $30k is great if most other people earn less, but $100k is not good enough if most other people make more.

Everybody will find out, if they haven't already, that consumerism doesn't satisfy. I have - chasing after something is more exciting that finally getting it.