Need help with talking point

[midwayer]

The big one I came across the other night was that the Democrats, in thier Union push forced the Corporations to abandon the American worker.

Is this a viable point for the Freepers?

I found myself not knowledgable enough to defend this one other than to bring up the fact that this administration, at the same time has rewarded Corporations to outsource.

Again the Freepers say that it all started with Clinton and the Unions push forcing the Corporations to go elsewhere.

Please advise

[Spiffarino]

1. I hate to break it to you

When freepers start pulling Bill Clinton out of their asses, they have effectively shut you off and won't listen to you. For some reason, they think the very mention of the name of the Clenis will have the same effect as holding a cross up to a vampire. You are tilting at windmills, my friend.

You can end the conversation completely by saying, "Oh, you mean the greatest president of the 21st century?" when Clinton's name comes up. That will shock them and delight the rest of us.

On edit: Their argument is utter nonsense, but it will take reading recent history to understand why. Suffice it to say, Bill Clinton was NOT the unions' best friend.

[bucknaked]

2. Ask them if any US worker should compete against a salary of $2000, annual

...annually! Because that is what lures companies overseas, not any "push" from a Union or Democratic President.

[Career Prole]

3. Tell your freeper friends that the labor movement has been around

a hell of a lot longer than free trade and outsourcing.

Free trade and outsourcing are just the latest manifestations of corporate greed, which is what gave birth to the labor movement a long time before Shrub was even born.
The problem has never been with organizations dedicated to protecting the rights of American workers. The problem lies instead with countries who afford their workers no rights at all, and the greed which makes all countries, including America, turn a blind eye to the abuse of workers elsewhere in the quest for greater profits.
Not profits, mind you...greater profits.
That is the very essence of greed. When you have more than enough but accept the abuse of another human being in order to have more.
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/reports/reports.htm

Make Trade Fair!
http://www.maketradefair.com/en/index.htm

[pookastew]

4. Here's the answer:

Look, businesses have an OBLIGATION to maximize profits and minimize costs. There's no arguing that.

To minimize costs they move jobs overseas. Right?

The result is the globilization of the labor market. Which means for jobs to come back here one of two things must happen:

1. The standard of living for overseas workers must rise to our own, or

2. Ours must fall to theirs.

Now ask your Freeper friends which they think is more likely, and why the hell the labor movement shouldn't be trying to stop it?

Do they suggest the "solution" to outsourcing is for US workers to adopt Chinese worker standards and wages?

Is that what they want?

[Eloriel]

5. Huh?

I don't even understand this:

The big one I came across the other night was that the Democrats, in thier Union push forced the Corporations to abandon the American worker.

GREED forced corporations to abandon the American worker: more profits, more profits, more profits, never "enough." Cut workers, cut pay, cut benefits, more profits.

ANd if anything, Dems under the DLC's excellent leadership have all but abaondoned Labor, aside from every 4 years when they pretend to like them.

Look, here's the way I see things. There are 3 main loci of power in American life: government, the people, corporations. The political dance is all about which force gets more power, and/or how to keep them in balance, and /or what the role of government is.

Repugs have always supported corporate power and the wealthy. Dems traditionally have fought for The People (tho had largely forgotten their whole raison d'etre with the DLC's help and after discovering how easy it was to pander to coprorations for their funding rather than rely on grassroots organizing or earning it the old fashioned way).

There HAS to be some force mediating the power of corporations, and what the government doesn't do (via NLRB, OSHA, FLSA, minimum wage, Family Leave Act, and so forth and so on), Unions MUST do. If corporations had their way, we'd have real honest-to-God slavery. Unfortunately, with Labor in the decline it's suffered the last number of decades, corporations are getting away with far too much. We need a resurgence in Labor along with our Liberal Resurgence, and I'd sure as hell like to see the Dems lead that charge and make it happen.

Never forget: each and every benefit you as a worker enjoy, no matter where you work -- which ususally include (tho these are eroding): 40 hour work week, overtime for over 40 hours, healthcare, life insurance, retirement or 401K or whatever, sickpay, vacation, holidays -- ALL were won and ended up benefitting ALL Americans thanks to Unions. Period.

[BillZBubb]

6. Ask the dumb bastards what percentage of the workforce

is unionized. If they don't know that, they can immediately be told what imbeciles they are for spouting nonsense without the facts.

If they do know the answer, ask them how come Southern workers, where unionization is almost non-existent, have been hit hard by job losses. Total union membership in this country is only about 10%, that can't come close to explaining the job losses.

Also, ask them where the 23 million jobs produced during Clinton's terms came from. Funny, we lost jobs under Bush I and we're hemmorhaging jobs under the Chimperor, but in between we gained a historic number of jobs. Who abandoned the American worker again?