If you had to recommend one book on Vietnam, what would it be?

[jdj]

I am reading one by H.R. McMaster and I feel like I am going blind, plus I don't know if he is a repuke. Plus he is covering cabinet level stuff and very little to nothing of what went on in the actual country itself. I've always wanted to understand more about it, but I always feel baffled about the following (I'm ashamed to admit):

1)Vietnam
2)Watergate
3)Iran-contra

I have tons of stuff saved to disk, but with these three topics it never quite gels in my brain. Anyone who has a favorite book on these subjects, please post it here, it'll be greatly appreciated.

[Catch22Dem]

1. Depends

If you're looking for a book about the war itself, try The Things They Carried which is a wonderful book. Talks about the physical things they carried (weapon, canteen, ammo, etc...) and the emotional baggage, fear, and the other intangibles they carried as well.

Very good. Had to read it in my War Lit class.

[jdj]

4. Thank you! I'm wanting to know about policy errors

but also the human side, but I don't want to accidentally read some repuke whitewash.

"The Things They Carried" by Tim O'Brien

"A finalist for both the 1990 Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Critics Circle Award, The Things They Carried marks a subtle but definitive line of demarcation between Tim O'Brien's earlier works about Vietnam, the memoir If I Die in a Combat Zone and the fictional Going After Cacciato, and this sly, almost hallucinatory book that is neither memoir nor novel nor collection of short stories but rather an artful combination of all three."

[markses]

21. Going After Cacciato won the National Book Award

n/t

[Radio]

47. Eyes Behind the Lines

A book about true soldiers. Brave men. Serving their country. Doing their job.

[markses]

49. Tim O'Brien was a soldier, too

n/t

[Sporadicus]

2. A Bright, Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam

'This passionate, epic account of the Vietnam War centers on Lt. Col. John Paul Vann, whose story illuminates America's failures and disillusionment in Southeast Asia. Vann was a field adviser to the army when American involvement was just beginning. He quickly became appalled at the corruption of the South Vietnamese regime, their incompetence in fighting the Communists, and their brutal alienation of their own people. Finding his superiors too blinded by political lies to understand that the war was being thrown away, he secretly briefed reporters on what was really happening. One of those reporters was Neil Sheehan. This definitive expose on why America lost the war won the Pulitzer Prize for nonfiction in 1989.'

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724141/102-0869982-5402508?v=glance

It was made into a movie, but I just couldn't believe Bill Paxton in the John Paul Vann role. The movie spent far too much time focusing on the romance between Vann and a Vietnamese girl. I guess that's my age showing that I would prefer the politics to gratuituous sex.

[jdj]

10. I can't imagine Bill Paxton in any role.

He's weird and off.

I was horrified at the way Hollywood spun "Cold Mountain", so I boycotted the film, both for that reason and for the out-sourcing (Romania was way cheaper, forget authenticity), since I am from the region it happened in and I hate Nicole Kidman. I was disturbed that they got an australian to play Ada and an Englishman to play Inman and they obsessed on the war when there is ZERO civil war in that book. ZERO. Inman thinks about the battle of Gettysburg and says they may as well have all shot themselves in the back of the head for all the good it did. Then he deserts. That's on like page two, end of civil war b.s. in Cold Mountain. In the end he is shot because he freaking deserted. Hollywood massacred that book, which was as anti-war as it could get, so I can identify with having them ruin a movie to mass market it. It's gross.

Thanks for posting this, I'll definitely check it out.

[GOPisEvil]

41. I second "A Bright, Shining Lie". Also "Street Without Joy" by

Bernard Fall. He was a Frenchman who witnessed Dien Bien Phu, and then watched the Americans make the exact same mistakes as the French.

[Stephanie]

3. Dispatches

About the journalists who covered the war.

[jdj]

5. That's right, back then there was some real journalism going on.

Thanks for reminding me.

[Sporadicus]

8. 'Dispatches' is Very Good

we'll never get reporting like that from 'embedded journalists.'

[Sporadicus]

6. For Something More Combat-Oriented

I recommend 'The Tunnels of Cu Chi.'

"The authors, BBC journalists, discuss the Vietcong who lived, worked and fought in tunnelsparticularly the ones in Cu Chi, a district just north of Saigonas well as the U.S. Army "tunnel rats," who tried to explore and clear the underground cities. PW found that this book "provides a striking view of a neglected but crucial aspect of the Vietnam war.""

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425089517/102-0869982-5402508?v=glance

This book convinced me that the US military could never have succeeded in Vietnam, considering the native ingenuity of the Vietnamese fighters (despite protestations from those who claim politicians lost that war).

[Bush was AWOL]

7. Read one from the Vietcongs point of view.

A vietcong memoir is pretty good.

[nose pin]

9. The Elephant and the Tiger

by Wilbur H. Morrison

Gives a good overall perspective, some background going back 1000 years, and picking up in detail from WWII to the fall of Saigon. Also covers what was going on politically in the US. Thick, but very readable. My only complaint is that he seems more interested in the air war than the ground war.

Another excellent and well written book is "RIPCORD: Screaming Eagles Under Siege, Vietnam, 1970", by Keith Nolan. It is specific to the battle at FSB Ripcord, which was happening at the same time as the invasion of Cambodia, but there was a total news blackout at the time, so not many people have ever heard about it. A real page turner.

[RummyTheDummy]

11. Here's a couple on Vietnam

"ABOUT FACE : THE ODYSSEY OF AN AMERICAN WARRIOR" by David Hackworth and "Vietnam Primer" also by Hackworth.

[jdj]

13. Hackworth. Now there's a name I respect.

Thanks to everyone who responded so far, I'm going to watch the repeat of the Daily Show, and then come back and copy this whole thread.

[Columbia]

12. Home to War: A History of the Vietnam Veterans' Movement

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812991036/ref=pd_sim_books_1/002-8697223-5394430?v=glance&s=books

From Publishers Weekly
A former draft resister who felt he had "a moral duty not to fight in Vietnam," Nicosia (Memory Babe: A Critical Biography of Jack Kerouac) interviewed some 600 men who did take part in the war and who then became active in the antiwar movement, or later worked as veterans' advocates. The result, after a decade's worth of work, is this sprawling, politically charged, personality-driven book. Nicosia takes the story beyond the antiwar years, but concentrates on detailed re-creations of the actions, during the war, of antiwar veterans primarily the leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), the often fractious, vehemently antiwar group. Nicosia spins a riveting story at least for the first 300 or so densely packed pages. He clearly empathizes with VVAW leaders such as Jan Barry, Larry Rottman, Scott Camill, Al Hubbard and Ron Kovic (of Born on the Fourth of July fame) all of whom are vividly and compellingly portrayed. And that is the book's main problem, as well as one of its strengths: Nicosia writes with passion, but barely a whit of dispassion, about VVAW's sometimes inspired, sometimes haphazard actions and of the group's turn toward anarchy and ultra-leftist politics, while other, less confrontational Vietnam veterans and groups get short shrift. Long, fine-grained chapters on the Veterans Administration's shameful postwar record on Agent Orange and on post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) tell an important story, but won't be for everyone. It's difficult to envision anyone even remotely concerned with the subject reading this deeply informed account without having an opinion about it the mark of an important book. (May 1) Forecast: Nicosia's aim here seems to be as much advocacy as history and he succeeds at both. This book should generate discussion, and consequent sales, as the Bush administration undertakes a review of the military and its compensation packages, particularly since Gulf War syndrome issues are so analogous to those faced by vets exposed to Agent Orange.

[King of New Orleans]

14. On the subject of Watergate

this documentary video series trumps any book on the subject. Probably the best documentary I've ever seen.
Interviews with many of the participants. Excellent footage of the hearings. Very well paced. Concise and Comprehensive.

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10000&catalogId=10000&langId=-1&productId=12163&partnumber=639971

It may be available at your local library too.

[Bryan]

15. Vietnam Voices: Perspectives on the War Years 1941-1975, Compiled and edit

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0820319694/qid=1091507976/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-7391741-4108130?v=glance&s=books

It's a remarkable anthology of material spanning the French colonial period to the surrender of Saigon-primary-source accounts, oral history, contemporaneous journalism, memoirs, written history, literature, popular culture-organized in chronological order, so it threads through the history and immediate aftermath of our involvement.

Even though it's thoroughly engrossing, it's very lively and easy to read in short bursts, and it points one towards other works for further reading (In the interest of full disclosure, I took a class from Pratt in college on Vietnam-era fiction, but don't let that stop you. Buy this book).

[Johnyawl]

16. For a good overview...

...of what we did wrong, what we should have done, and a good history of guerilla warfare, try War In The Shadows by Robert B. Asprey.

Originally published in two volumns, vol 1 is a histroy of guerilla warfare, vol 2 concentrates on the US experience in Vietnam. A vol 3 has recently been published which begins with the end of the Vietnam war, and goes all the way to Afghanistan.

A good review is here:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/bookrev/asprey.html

From that review:

When originally published, Asprey's denunciation of high-ranking officers' conduct of the war in Vietnam came under intense criticism. Asprey claims the US military lost the war in Vietnam due to its total ignorance of unconventional and guerrilla warfare. Though blackballed by military scholars for almost a decade, he refused to retract his accusations. Instead, he continued to cite 2,000 years of guerrilla warfare tactics, operations, and strategy as proof the US military violated most, if not all, principles of unconventional warfare. The revised version, still the most definitive study of guerrilla warfare available, continues to remind the military of the requirement to fully understand unconventional warfare's capabilities and limitations.

[blindpig]

37. I second that recommendation

You summed it up nicely, it is the best. Should be required reading at the War College and State. Didn't know about the revised version, thanks.

[JSJ]

17. 'the heart of darkness' - if it worked for copola...

...then it works for me. Joseph Conrad's the author.

[MichaelHarris]

18. I highly reccomend

Sand in the Wind by Robert Roth

I don't know the authors politics but it is a very good book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0523426011/104-6422385-9342311?v=glance

[puerco-bellies]

19. A Decent Interval

By a former CIA analyst name Frank A. Schnepp (I think) very good book on the war.

[markses]

20. Depends what KIND of book you want

For an engaging journalistic read, definitely go with Michael Herr's Dispatches.

For a kind of magnum opus life's work, definitely go with Neil Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie.

I still think that the best history books on Vietnam are Stanley Karnow's The Vietnam War, Frances Fitzgerald's Fire in the Lake, and Bernard Fall's military histories Hell in a Very Small Place: the Siege of Dien Bien Phu and Street Without Joy.

As for fiction, you cannot possibly turn down Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried and Going After Cacciato.

It is impossible to recommend one book, in other words. There is a lot of great stuff out there.

[ConsAreLiars]

22. One thing to read carefully is

the testimony given at the Winter Soldier Investigation. This is just a fragment of the story, but one that is essential.
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_entry.html

There's a lot more that may be helpful to you at the main site: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Sixties.html

[Curious Dave]

23. Street Without Joy

by Bernard Fall. Best book out there if you're interested in the early history of the war; primarily the French efforts in the 50s. Fall was a very astute observer who as early as 1960 was already predicting amerika's eventual failure in Vietnam.

[buycitgo]

24. Can't believe nobody mentioned David Halberstam

Making of a Quagmire......sound familiar? he was there, on the ground, like Sheehan; one of the first reporters to question WTF was going on

The Best and the Brightest.......Kennedy's policymakers become victims of their own hubris and willing suspension of disbelief in military BS, deluding themselves that the war could be won without nukes, or similar total destruction of the North

Bright Shining Lie is heartbreaking

Dispatches, one of the first examples of the "New Journalism"

Fire in the Lake, from both sides, pulitzer, IIRC

A Rumor of War, another searing soldier's story

there are others, by William Shawcross, Roger Morris, who have lots to say about Kissinger, but are narrower in focus

depends on how far you want to go

you should read something from pre WWII, as well

there's a book by a French scholar, whose name I don't remember, who gave the most detailed insight into the Vietnamese mindset, along with a very sympathetic reading into Ho's life; not much help on that. sorry

if you're sticking to one, though, I'd try starting Fire in the Lake and Best and Brightest, cause they cover both the policy and the sociology in two places, depending on which you prefer

[nose pin]

25. The Cat from Hue

Author's name slips me, but he was the same CBS journalist that did the "Charlie Company" segments during the war. It came out last year. He spent alot of time in Vietnam at different periods during the war.

[maveric]

26. "Rumor of War" by Philip Caputo

The true story of a young college grad (Caputo),who fell for the propaganda,went to Viet Nam and saw the atrocities and hypocrisies of the war.

[Debs]

27. I dont know from a personal perspective. bit

For the political realities of the entire region during Vietnam I reccomend Chomsky's Political Economy of Human Rights and Chomsky himself reccomends Richard Boyles the dragon and the Lotus(that might not be the exact title) As for (again looking for the political reality not personal perspective) Chomskys Turning the Tide or Americas Watch, With Friends Like These

[69KV]

45. the Richard Boyle book

The Richard Boyle book is "Flower of the Dragon". It has been out of print for at least three decades so good luck finding a copy!

Yes, that's the same Richard Boyle who later turned up as a character in Oliver Stone's movie "Salvador"..

[Julien Sorel]

28. There is no one book.

Sheehan's Bright Shining Lie is mentally dishonest crap, that relies on a structural gimmick to make a point Sheehan's intellect and skills as a journalist/historian are unable to make forcefully enough on their own.

If you have to read one book, and one book only, then Karnow's sweeping Vietnam should be that book. It covers not only Vietnam from the time that the U.S. became involved, but the long history of struggle and warfare that Vietnam has endured. It doesn't cover the politics as much as I would like, and it's so bird's eye that you get no detail at all, but it does cover all the major stuff.

Frances Fitzgerald's Fire In The Lake is well written and has an interesting thesis that I tend to agree with, although I disagree with her ultimate conclusions. It's also a thesis I don't see discussed often in the major media, probably because you have to think about it, and it involves looking at another culture and accepting that other people live their lives with a radically different world view than we have, something Americans in particular seem to find hard to deal with. Unfortunately, Fitgerald's prose is a bit dense and she comes across as arrogant IMO, which makes reading her less than pleasant; moreover, she is easily the most pedantic human being I've ever read.

One book that hasn't been addressed in this thread is Halberstam's Best And the Brightest, which does cover the political side quite well, or at least, as well as it could considering when it was written. Going beyond the "one book" requirement, it's a must-read.

Phil Caputo's A Rumor Of War is needlessly polemical, and bitter like stale lemons, but you get the feel of the war from the ground level, plus the added bonus of seeing a human being transform into a bitter cynic with every turn of the page.

Unfortunately, I haven't read any great books that cover the air war. The one I've read and enjoyed is called Over The Beach by a guy named Grant. You see the war from the perspective of carrier pilots, and it is eye-opening, if you are already grounded (sorry for the pun) in the traditional portrayal of the war as an exercise in folly.

How can you read about Vietnam and not get some in-depth reportage of the Tet offensive? Tet!, by Don Oberdorfer, is about as complete on the topic as can be, and focuses on the political side of Tet rather than the military, just as it should.


I'm leaving out a bunch of stuff, but these cover the basics. The key with Vietnam is to avoid the one-sided exercises in polemics, like Sheehan's hack piece, and expose yourself to as broad a selection of viewpoints and reportage as possible. Vietnam is an extremely complex topic, and there are no right and simple answers, despite what lots of people pretend.

[Michael Harrington]

30. There's no real single book on Watergate, but...

The late J. Anthony Lukas's Nightmare comes very close. He puts the thing it's it's proper perspective, as part of a larger effort to subvert the democratic process by Nixon and that cadre of scum he had around him.

[Laughing Mirror]

29. Daniel Ellsberg's "Secrets" is indispensable

Not only did his Pentagon Papers reveal the lies told the public during the escalation of the war, but war protester Ellsberg had also been a Marine in Vietnam and was not only a Defense Dept policy analyst from the Rand Corporation. Fascinating book from a principled and great man.

[VOX]

31. There are two first-rate oral histories of in-country experience:

"Bloods: An Oral History of the Vietnam War by Black Veterans"
by Wallace Terry

and

"Everything We Had: An Oral History of the Vietnam War, by Thirty Three American Soldiers Who Fought It" by Al Santoli

I cannot recommend these two books highly enough. Sometimes hearing first-hand accounts is the best way to learn about something truly horrifying. These are unvarnished, unpolished, brutal, raw and utterly memorable.

[Disturbed]

32. I have read several of the books mentioned...

and I feel that Iraq and Afghanistan are going to be failures for the USA.

[smallprint]

51. I second "Bloods".

Very intense, lots of different perspectives.

[HopeArrival]

33. Winter Soldier

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/fall01%5CKahl/wintersoldier.html

[T Town Jake]

34. Just for one particular phase...

...of the war, the wrapping up stages, I would recommend "America's Last Vietnam Battle: Halting Hanoi's 1972 Easter Offensive" by Dale Andrade. Very detailed and well-written. This was literally "The End" as far as American ground involvement was concerned--other than B-52 & naval air strikes we were pretty much out of it after that.

[leanings]

35. "Veil" by Bob Woodward

covers Iran-Contra in some depth and Bill Casey's CIA in general. Pretty good read that I just got done with.

[buycitgo]

36. except he made half of it up

I read it, and nobody believes he got in to talk to Casey in the hospital

just check the reaction to his book on John Belushi from those who were there

he's a novelist, not a journalist

and a bad one at that

[dryan]

38. My picks....

Fire on the Lake
A Bright Shining Lie

[RainDog]

39. For Iran-Contra

for starters-

Robert Parry's Lost History is very good.

he has a site called The Consortium online, where you can read lots of the info in the book, plus more.

He was a Newsweek and AP reporter who investigated the scandal early on.

[buycitgo]

40. got that right. he was the FIRST one to expose North

and got FIRED for his efforts, meaning he refused to quit working on the story

Lost History is an amazing book, as is Fooling America, which he wrote about 12 years ago, detailing how corrupt and herdlike the media have become

he also wrote a book on the October Surprise, which has been mostly confirmed since then, by former Soviet intel releases, as well as Israeli revelations about Ari Ben Menache, or something like that.

off top of head for this

[indepat]

42. Philip Caputo's "A Rumor of War"

[Tosca]

43. Pulitzer Prize winner

Fire in the Lake by Frances FitzGerald

[69KV]

44. And A Hard Rain Fell and Chickenhawk

Depends on what kind of books about Vietnam you want.

There are on-the-ground, grunts-eye accounts, and there are "macro" accounts with broad looks at the history of Vietnam and U.S. policy.

If you are looking for good personal accounts, I have two must-reads: "And A Hard Rain Fell" by John Ketwig, and "Chickenhawk" by Robert Mason. Very readable, well written, great books. Both of them have the effect of making the reader as angry as the authors. They're good doses of reality.

As for the "macro" books I'm not sure. There are some well known ones - "Fire in the Lake", "A Bright Shining Lie", neither of which I've read. I did read one called "Long Time Passing: Vietnam and the Haunted Generation" which was a depressing read. Probably should be required reading but it's not an enjoyable book. For the more apolitical, strictly military strategy oriented books I'm going to go out on a limb and recommend anything by Shelby Stanton. Stanton has been attacked by the wingnutters and I'm not sure why since he seems completely apolitical, but the attacks from the right were why I checked him out in the first place.

Here's one to avoid if you run across it: "Stolen Valor". It's the biggest pile of shit ever written about the Vietnam War, and that is actually a charitable description. The author's entire point seems to be that unless somebody is an extreme right winger, they cannot possibly be a real Vietnam vet. He claims to be exposing "phony vets", which there really are many of, but then spends most of the book attacking people like John Kerry who really were in Vietnam. PTSD and agent orange are just liberal myths, there is no such thing as homeless vets because a real vet would be well balanced and have easily gotten a job at FedEx or Southwest Airlines, and Vietnam Veterans of America is a communist front. Like I said, the book is the biggest pile of... If you must, check it out from the library like I did, don't buy it. The authors don't deserve the money.

[DemoTex]

46. "Street Without Joy" by Bernard Fall

Also Fall's Hell in a Very Small Place: the Siege of Dien Bien Phu and Jules Roy's book on Dien Bien Phu.

Are you reading McMaster's Dereliction of Duty : Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies That Led to Vietnam? I thought that book was excellent. It really busts McNamara and LBJ. When you finish it, go see The Fog of War.

[markses]

50. A man after my own heart

See my Post #20. ;-)

[GOPisEvil]

52. Yessir!

See post #41. It was required reading for me in a military history class.

[heidiho]

48. "Bright Shining Lie" by Neil Sheehan

It was fantastic - the best one I've read.

[eridani]

53. Fire in the Lake n/t