Debunking M.M.'s 911

[Zenaholic]

I found this site listed in my extremely local newspaper in a letter to the editor. Some of it is speculation but some seems to be based in facts. I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of response it got here.

I apologize if this has already been discussed.

<snip>

For months, many have anticipated the debut of Michael Moore’s Farenheit 9/11. What would he say? What would he uncover? What new theory would he attempt to convince the public of, by cutting and pasting strips of footage, as he did in Bowling for Columbine and Roger and Me? I had heard about many of the phony claims and conspiracy theories to occur in Farenheit 9/11. And I knew that sooner or later, I would be forced to debate one of the many automatons who had been indoctrinated by his socialist propaganda. I knew, however, that I couldn’t critique a movie that I had not seen without being disingenuous. So I strapped on my Bush gear and headed toward the theatre to watch the quasi communist in action.

The movie opens with the 2000 election. I was baffled to hear Moore claim that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida.” Which numerous investigations were these? The New York Times1, the Washington Post,2 and USA Today,3 reported the same consensus after both recounts: George W. Bush won. I’m willing to accept the fact that, nationally, Gore won the popular vote. That is accurate. However, we have something called the “electoral college.” But to claim that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida” is preposterous! This is undoubtedly why Moore didn’t choose to name these “numerous sources.” There were none.

</snip>

<snip>

Moore seems to have a knack for ignoring relevant information. Upon discussing the Coalition of the Willing, he only mentions the small countries that don’t possess troops, while leaving out the countries which do, such as Poland, England and Australia.24 And of course we’re supposed to be disgusted that our armed forces possess large quantities of low-income earners and minorities, and that recruiters often go to the more unfortunate towns, looking for people to enlist. Think about that argument. Leftists like Moore are upset when a company doesn’t hire enough minorities and upset when the military hires too many! Only someone as ungrateful as Michael Moore, could be appalled at the fact that low-income earners from places like Flint, MI are “targeted” by the military and granted the greatest opportunities that America has to offer- education, money, benefits, housing, training, food and heroism. But, of course, Moore sees none of these things. He is still too blinded by his hatred for the United States and his belief that the U.S. military is the embodiment of shame.

Michael Moore ends Farenheit 9/11 with a quote from George Orwell. I, myself, have a quote from George Orwell that Moore just may have overlooked.
“If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, he that is not with me is against me.”25 I couldn’t have said it better myself.

</snip>

Enjoy!

http://www.larryelder.com/911/debunking911.html

[LittleApple81]

1. Tell whoever sent you this (or you yourself) to go to MM's site. He

is a patriot and answers questions directly.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenaholic]

3. I didn't write it!

And just because I posted it doesn't mean I believe it. I just wanted to see what kind of response it got. Don't worry I'm still voting for Kerry. Geeze!

[rooboy]

4. You should search the archives for previous threads on this subject.

This is just a shit diversion from the fact that the Bush administration has NOTHING on which to run for election. America is turning to shit, but hey, who cares as long as Michael Moore's a liar, right?

[Connie_Corleone]

5. Larry Elder is a rightwing hack

What kind of response do you want? Make up your own mind.

[Zenaholic]

10. As far as who I am voting for my mind has been made up for 3.5 years!

But I am not 100% sure about Moore. I thought maybe I could get some help understanding where this Larry Elder is coming from (or where he wants to be coming from)...oh well. It's a good thing I wore my flame resistant underpants today :tinfoilhat:

[Bridget Burke]

6. What's your response to the article?

Do you know that by most methods of counting votes, Gore would have, indeed won Florida?

Do you think that Moore hates America?

My response: Just from the snip you posted, this article appears to be more of the same old crap. Please try to educate yourself.

[johnnie]

11. " Please try to educate yourself."

Maybe the poster IS trying to educate their self.
I see a lot of people here who jump on "newbies" when they ask certain questions and are maybe trying to learn.
The poster just seems to be asking for opinions, not asking to be put down for not being as well educated as you are.
Of course I could also be wrong. :hi:

[Zenaholic]

16. Thanks Johnnie!

You are correct. This Larry elder guy has references in this article that point back to "real" news sites (like the NYT).

I do think Moore is a patriot and that he doesn't hate America (although he might hate Amurika). I just wonder how much of his movie really is factual, and how much is spin. Because I've heard so many conflicting reports that I just can't say for sure.

[CatWoman]

18. Johnnie

the movie was made using 95 percent ACTUAL footage.

ACTUAL FOOTAGE

Someone asked you have you seen it.

I must follow up with that question.

[johnnie]

24. Ummmm

I'm Johnnie. :hi:

[CatWoman]

32. LOL

Sorry -- I meant those comments for the author of the thread.

:hi:

[Zenaholic]

29. Yes I saw the movie

I tried to go on opening day but the tix were sold out 3 hours before the movie started. So I had to wait a couple of days.

I enjoyed it but it didn't really teach me anything new. I think it was for people who had no idea what Haliburton is. For me, it was like preaching to the choir.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. I Think You're Right Johnnie

It seems that the original poster is taking some undeserved shots for asking a question.

If this was in the local paper, then it seems to me, that the poster IS trying to be educated in the facts, vs. the rantings of some right-wing hatchet man, like Larry Elder.

It sure seems ok by me for the poster to ask this question, and i think some of the other DU'ers need to chill out.
The Professor

[a_random_joel]

30. Well said, Professor.

[johnnie]

7. I read this crap the other day

Just more rhetoric spewed by another know-it-all.
What is funny about most of the MM bashers is that he takes swings at both parties. The ones who hate MM are mainly shrub supporters because they think Moore is just bashing bush because he is a democrat. I have heard MM rip in to Clinton and Gore many times.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. Larry Elder.

Repuke suckass. All anyone needs to know.

"I am a libertarian and a republican". Nice trick.

[tandot]

9. With Bush lying his a** off I am not the least surprised that his

supporters do the same. Like minds think alike...

Lying, cheating, and stealing...it is just the Republican way.

I am glad that some Americans haven't lost their balls and stand up against this regime. This is what patriotism is really about: Protecting America from an incompetent and crook Administration.

[CatWoman]

12. Larry Elder -- ANOTHER "Black for Bush"

I've seen him attack a number of democrats on television.

He's a clone of Armstrong Williams.

[ProfessorGAC]

28. They Must Share Just The One Brain

Maybe we can't clone a brain, so he and Williams have to get by with just the one brain. That's obvious, to me, because they are both too stupid by half.
The Professor

[a_random_joel]

13. I'll be fair, here...

The issues you raised can be answered thus:

Moore's take on the Coalition is quite easy to understand. All one has to do is look at the standard set by another Bush... Bush's father.

THAT coalition had over 100 members contributing troops, weapons, or dollars.

THIS coalition, at the outset of the war had only 4 or 5 countries contributing troops, of which only Britain (10k) and the US(130K) were the only siginificant contributors. If I rememember correctly Poland only had less than 100 boots on the ground during the actual invasion. The post-Mission Accomplished numbers have grown. But it's hard not to point out a man who tries to compare this coalition (of which most countries most Americans cannot pronounce, let alone find on a map) to his father's.

As for monetary contributions, the funny thing about this coalition, is we have had to promise many of these countries aid or assitance in getting into the EU or NATO, not them actually contributing to our effort financially - hence the play on words - Coalition of the BILLING.

As for the second part of your article quote - the author in question does not note an important distinction between getting hired by a corporation and getting hired by the military. One key difference is that in getting hired by the military you stand a chance of GETTING KILLED.

To try and compare corporate hiring practices vs. military enlistment in the context of affirmative action has to be one of the most fallacious and asinine arguments I have ever seen. That alone should discredit this author.

BTW, have you seen F911 yourself?

[onecitizen]

14. Zenaholic...........

it's a good idea to check out the source of the article before posting. Elder is a conservative hack who has been out to get Dems for years. Check out some of his other stuff. He has NO credibility.

[CatWoman]

15. Hey, Zenaholic

I'm alerting this thread, as it is in violation of copyright.

You would do well to aquaint yourselves with the rules.

[Zenaholic]

20. Violation of Copyright?

You have got to be kidding, right?

Please show me how this a copyright infringment. I thought I was following the rules by posting at least one paragraph and the link to the article.

[CatWoman]

34. um

I count more than ONE paragraph.

[Zenaholic]

35. "At least one paragraph"

So is this a copyright infringment or not?

[chiburb]

17. Hey Zenaholic:

Did you see the movie?
Oh, one more question:
You said you made your mind up 3 1/2 years ago who you are going to vote for. Care to share?

[Zenaholic]

21. Yes I saw the movie

And I am voting for Kerry.

[a_random_joel]

19. Further...

As for Gore...

There were several different standards that were used during the media recounts, that found that based on the criteria used to count the votes - Gore DID win under several scenarios. Keep in mind that FLA does NOT have a state-wide standard, it is county to county. THe Constitution of the US says that states are to determine their method of counting the votes. This was reported, if I remember correctly, on 9/11/01. Something else happened that day, however, so perhaps you might have missed that. I'll see if I can find a link.

As for the Orwell quote... this is perhaps the best of all. One of the criticisms of Michael Moore is that he often uses quotes or shots out of context.

Well, Elder does the exact same thing here. See, the Orwell quote he is referring to was a criticism of British pacifists during WORLD WAR 2. If one wants to compare the Iraq War to World War 2, then one perhaps needs to revisit elementary school.

This thread is cleansed. Next...

[phiddle]

33. Amplifying

Recounts in Fla. showed that Bush would win ONLY under the scenario proposed by Gore in his original suit, i.e., a recount of only 4 counties. However, the Supreme Court of Florida rejected this solution, and accepted the Bush remedy to recount the entire state. As of the time that Scalia stopped the counting, all of the ballots had already been shipped to Tallahassee, were being counted under a judge's supervision, and the task would have been finished by the federal deadline for appointing electors.
Subsequent investigation showed that under ANY criteria used (overvotes/undervotes, niether, both, etc.) Gore would have won the Fla. Supreme Court mandated statewide recount.
(On edit) The headlines in the Times, Post, etc., were misleading, because, while Bush would have won under the original basis for the suit, that basis had been rejected by the Florida Supremes, and therefore, Gore would have won the recount by their criteria.

[a_random_joel]

36. Correct, of course the "librul media" didn't put that in the headlines.

Most of the articles I read said something to the effect of "Media Recount Shows Bush Won."

And then if you read below that in the case by case scenarios it shows that Gore won in most of those scenarios, like counting over-votes, etc.

Gore played a horrible hand during that fiasco in only going after undervotes in 4 counties, it's true. Too bad more people were concerned with "getting it over with", then taking the time to find out the truth.

[mikehiggins]

22. Batman and the Joker

One of the constant questions in the Batman/Joker relationship is whether Batman is at all responsible for the crimes the Joker has committed over the years. After all, no one is more familiar with just how crazed Joker is. Wny not just take the next opportunity to cap the bitch?

Oh no, the purists cry. Batman is a hero. He's better than that.

So much for comic books.

In the real world it tickles me to no end to see the RW squirm when someone meets them on their own level, and delivers a quick, sharp kick to the balls. Was F911 accurate? Of course. Were all the "nuances" of all the claims exhaustedly examined and parsed? Of course not. F911 is a movie, dude. It is a polemic, a call to action, a declaration of grievances just like that Declaration of Independence thing those old guys in wigs spread around the Colonies back in the days before Big Oil and the Saudis.

Moore is saying, LOOK! This is what happened and this is what I think it might mean. Sort of like saying we have an oil problem because the two Johns didn't vote for the Bush* Energy Policy, like Cheney just claimed.

If Moore was Batman, the Joker would be a footnote. He isn't "better than that" and makes no claims to be. Anyway its about time the Right had to deal with their own tactics and strategies being shoved right back in their faces. After what they did to Max Cleland I'm amazed any of them have the balls to complain about F911.

Me, when the DVD comes out, I'm going to buy copies to donate to our local libraries. The more (I almost wrote "moore" but that would be too weak a pun) the merrier.

I still have my Clark '04 shirt hanging up in the closet but I'm doing whatever I can to help elect the ABB candidate. That is job one and remember: RESULTS MATTER

[Zenaholic]

23. I like your Batman/Robin comparison.

Best response yet! Thanks Mike.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

31. BRAVO. N/T

[spanone]

25. My response is: IF 10% OF 911 IS TRUE, WE'RE FUCKED

[kikiek]

26. This doesn't show any inaccuracies in F911

Military hires too many minorities? Greatest opportunities in America? Did the author sign up his kids if these are such great opportunities? This reeks of disdain for the poor and implies they should be happy to serve to keep his kind fat and rich. Did you really even read this? Hard to believe anyone would take this as a serious rebuttal. Facts are not rebutted in this article. Just grossly misrepresented. Another 1984 quote "How does one man assert his power over another? By making him suffer." The quote you stated is about mindlessly conforming.