What Good Is Dean if He Takes Down the Democratic Party???

[Starpass]

Just reading posts tonight and I'm kind of appalled at some thinking going on. I see people cheering about how Dean will or is sticking it to the other "spineless Democrats". I've read posts that say that these spineless bastards will go "down" in the next election. GREAT WONDERFUL WOW TREMENDOUS.....and that's suppose to be "good news"?? So, if you have your wildest wet dream come true and Dean becomes President, he will rule over a Congress of like 90% repukes 'cause WE succeeded in getting rid of all them goddamn "war" democrats..............and baby, those repukes will cut off his nuts and make Clinton look like the warm up act to the big "kill". What?? You think they will roll over and do the bidding of President Dean?? Get a life. Dean has a problem that he needs to rectify. Of course, he will NOT be elected president if any part of his campaign is to attack fellow Democrats. The repukes won't vote for him and a shit pot of Dems won't either. Therefore, it's real cute at this stage to be the anti-"usual" Democrat. But if he is to be elected he must become one of the "boys". It's a "known" that in primaries the appeal is to the more fanatic sections of a party; BUT that in the general election, the tone is moderated to appeal to the citizenry in general. What I want to know is what Dean will "moderate" to. Will he continue what he is saying now??--if so, like I said, he will turn off a great share of the Dems because he will be destroying them and he will lose big time (the repukes aren't going to vote for him, for Christ's sake). In a word, some of you may end up shocked of what he will turn into if he wins the primaries. Just don't think he's going to fight for your "issues" to the end. If he does, he's going down because he has to attack most of the elected Dem officials and they have strong party organizations who will fight him. Bottome line: he cannot win if he divides up the Dem party and he cannot stick to his current "presentation" if he is going to unite the party. To unite Dean will have to change..and that will have a bunch of you here going ballastic.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. Flip side of the same coin

You're talking about the possibility of Dean dividing the Democratic Party. There are those who believe that the moderate Democrats have divided the party by hewing the GOP line too much. We feel left out in the cold. Either way you want to look at it, there are two camps, and there's a pretty big division between those two camps. And it takes two to tango. So who should cater to whom? Or how would both sides meet in the middle. The point of my post was mostly to mention that this issue can be looked at in two different and opposite ways. And both sides may have a valid point. How to break the impasse?

[Starpass]

3. There are TWO elections and this is where he has to be careful

One is the primary....like I said, this brings out the big fringes in a party. So, a politician moderates their message to this group (i.e., all fire and brimstone). Now if Dean wins the nomination, a new election and new challenge arises. NOW he has to appeal to all Dems and a bunch of morons called the American public. If he keeps to the lines we hear today, he will be attacking our elected (like them or hate them) Dems who hold office today as much as attacking Bush and repukes. Those elected Dems have massive state organizations (that's why they have a Congressional seat and maintain it). They will fight for their OWN lives which will be semi-anti-Dean. The result is No Win, No Win across the board. He will dink elected Dems; their organizations will dink him in their states, etc. He has to MODERATE....and I'm saying that the minute he does we are going to hear bitching from one end of this nation to the other from his followers that he's just like the rest. And, regardless, the media already is programmed to tell the American people he's a Commie even if he decides to become further right than Bush. It's a situation of real concern..it really is.

[CWebster]

7. He is who he is

That is why he is well-liked by a broad cross-section. He won't have to moderate, because he doesn't represent himself as anything other than who and what he is--no matter what is projected on him.

[Bombtrack]

15. A broad cross-section

of knee-jerk, anti-war left-wingers

he comes off as more liberal than he might be, exactly the opposite of what progressives need to gain the whitehouse

[indigo32]

32. "a broad cross-section of knee-jerk, anti-war left-wingers"

thats both cold and just not true.

[AngryWhiteDemocrat]

33. Ah, there he is...

...ol' bombtrack can't go a day without name-calling Dean supporters or bashing Dean.

Thanks for being predictable.

[Classical_Liberal]

49. kneejerks were against Afghanistan too

.

[Bandit]

63. Why pray tell would Dean attack any Democrat after the nomination

That just plain makes no sense at all. He will rally all Democrats and together they will attack the Republicans. Dean is seperating himself from the run of the mill folks right now before the Primaries because that is how one gets noticed. He is a real Democrat and not Ralph Nader. He is a moderate who tells it like it is and not all Democrats want the truth revealed. If he wins the nomination you will see all of the Democrats unite behind him "Big Time"

[CWebster]

2. chill

It's just a lil' arse kicking. They could use a jumpstart, doncha think? ;-)

[Cascadian]

41. Sadly, there are plenty of arse kissers in the Democratic Party!

That is the problem.They should be kicking ass not kissing the Repubs.

John

[TheBigGuy]

4. Its pretty clear Dean will have to reposition himself to win in the fall

Dean is going to have to reposition himself as the moderate he really IS to win in the fall.

Not sure yet how hes going to do that...but its going to have to happen.

[Tanketra]

47. Bullhockey

Dean, Kerry, Lieberman, Sharpton, Nader, Saddam Hussein -- it doesn't matter WHO wins the Democratic nomination, they won't have to "reposition" themselves at ALL in relation to the ostensible political center.

We're not running against Bush's philosophies. We're running against his record. Re-election campaigns aren't decided by how "left" or "right" or "center" the challenger is -- they're decided by how cranked off people are at the guy IN office.

[mandyky]

5. Just how would Dean take down the party?

He is a moderate / centrist democrat. I do not understand what has the party's panties in a wad. Yes, he opposed Iraq, and what he said has come to pass on it. But the man is not anti-war, nor is he as liberal as some of these congressional yahoos make him out to be.

That said, when Dean does get the nomination he needs to have a long long chat with Bill Clinton, on how not to let what happened to Bill happen to Howard..

[chaumont58]

14. I have the same question

McGovern, he ain't, Mondale, he ain't, nor Dukakis(sp?). I think the people who want to paint him as a far out liberal are toting water for someone else. I guess it is the old idea of repeating a lie often enough to get enough people to believe it.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time....etc, etc."

[BeachBuckeye]

6. WE are the Democratic Party and WE are bigger than any one candidate

Dean, Kucinich, Gebhardt, Kerry, Edwards, doesn't matter who. No one candidate will take down the party. Lose? Maybe. Destroy the Party? Hell no!

[karlschneider]

8. Well, I'm far from settling on Dean as a nominee, -but-

if the Dems wind up with a candidate who's indistinguishable from a 'centrist republican', why bother? What's the point of even running a campaign? Hell's bells, if all we can come up with is Republican Lite, there's not even a need for an election.

[TheBigGuy]

10. oddly enough...that centerist thing...

....the funny thing is that a centerist Dem, if he played his cards right and spun it right, could really distinguish himeself from Bush by making Bush seem like the right wing radical, as thats been sort of where hes' been heading, policy-wise...W really cant run on his record, or its going to have to be radically spun .

[Dhalgren]

20. Exactly.

From what I've read and heard, Dean presents himself much more as a moderate - a sort of 'in your face' moderate, maybe. He seems to me to be more of a "straight talker" and many people seem to feel this is a "far left" trait, but Truman pulled it off quite well. I guess we'll have to see how Howard does. But you're right - campared to Bush, Dean will come off as a reasonable moderate.

[Cascadian]

42. If you have Republican Lite vs. Republican....

four more years of Bush. Plain and simple! What is sad is that these blue dog Demos and core centrists will continue to dig themselves in the same hole over and over again.

Can you say "token opposition"?

John

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

9. The better question is..."What good is the Democratic Party?"

In it's present form, mind you...who needs a bunch of lilly-livered, waffle, DLC-led, GOP-wannabes?

I'm SICK of having to feel like it's a personal shame being liberal or progressive. We need strong leaders in the Democratic party who will not try to moderate their views for fear of being labeled, "liberal." I want to support a leader who will hold his head up high and state, "by God, I am a liberal, and I feel that my commitment to liberal ideals is strong!"

JB

[Cascadian]

43. With the events of the last few years under Bush...

and with the current disasters we have now, the word "Liberal" will be back in vogue methinks! I hope more people will eventually swing left!

John

[seeker4ever]

55. Yes dammit! yes!

[MODemocrat]

11. You are no James Carville

Please don't try to tell me that Dean will destroy the democratic party. What are you basing your opinion on?

[JaySherman]

12. The problem is the core of the Democratic party has gone moderate,

That's essentially the same as going Republican (re: Liebermann, Gephardt, Edwards). Look at how they all voted on Patriot Act I and Iraq. Far as I'm concerned, most of them are little better than Repubs. Part of the reason the neocons have amassed so much power is the complete lack of an opposition party. The Dems really could use a fire under them. If they don't like it they can join the Repubs, or find another line of work. Personally, I think we should dump 90% of the House and Senate (the Repubs and the moderate Dems) and start over. That's obviously not going to happen, but someone's gotta start somewhere. My big worry about Dean is that he doesn't have the Washington insider experience or the political savvy that whoever replaces * will need to start repairing the damage, and that he'll get blamed when the economy finally tanks, and subsequently eaten alive by the neocons. In other words, another Jimmy Carter. A lot of that will depend on the people he surrounds himself with though. I'll be watching that closely. The fact that the media and the 'cons have been going out of their way to attack this guy of late tells me they take him seriously. We should too. Outside of maybe Kerry (who I'm still straddling the fence on), Graham, and Kucinich (neither of whom, face it, really have a shot at the nomination), Dean offers the best hope because he's the one standing up to * and offering real change. The Dems aren't going win by kissing *'s feet and towing the neocon line.

[dfong63]

16. who says they are "the core"?

The problem is the core of the Democratic party has gone moderate, That's essentially the same as going Republican (re: Liebermann, Gephardt, Edwards)

two things are clear: (1) the dem party leadership no longer honors the values that once distinguished the dem party from the reps; (2) a lot of former dem voters aren't voting dem anymore.

put 1 and 2 together. that is an indictment of the current dem leadership. what you are calling the "core" is the losers who got us into this mess. if we want to win, we have to stop following them down the path to permanent minority status.

[JaySherman]

46. I should have clarified or used better word choice.

By "core" I meant those in the party who are most responsible for deciding and implementing policy, i.e. the DLC, Clinton, most Congressional Dems. I agree however that the party leadership no longer honors the traditional progessive values. The impression I get from a lot of moderates, the so-called "swing" voters, and some repubs as well, is that they don't vote for the dems because they perceive them as spineless and not standing for anything. Much of the blame for this can actually be laid at Clinton's feet, since he was the one who ran on the campaign of bringing the dems back to center. Granted he helped give us eight great years, but he also had the charisma to pull off being moderate and still appear strong. Continuing that sort of policy now will only play right into the hands of the GOP. These guys shouldn't try to be Clinton, they should just be themselves (as much as any politician can). That's one thing I really like about Dean. I can even live with him leaning conservatively on some issues (gun control, economics), as long as he sticks his neck out and keeps his fists up.

[Dover]

13. Don't you have that backwards? What good is the Dem party if it takes

down Dean or other candidates who represent the heart and soul of the Dem principles?

[Cha]

18. Thank you, Dover,,,,I was just going to post something,,,,

to that effect but you say it so eloquently and succinctly!



http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer

[caledesi]

25. Zid, love the pic.

[Jim Sagle]

22. What you said.

[seeker4ever]

56. Bam!

[T Roosevelt]

17. Why not look at it this way?

What Good Is Dean if He Takes Back the Democratic Party???

We've been griping on this site for months (years?) about how the Democratic party has become spineless yes-men for *, and now here's a candidate who is reclaiming the party. So what if he pisses off some of those Dems who have acted as enablers. Look how much we complain about Daschle - the poster boy for the party. What about Lieberman, also a "popular" member of the party (at least within the party). In a way Nader was right (hold the flames awhile) - only when they realize they are vulnerable from both sides will they decide to take a stand. And for many of them switching parties is not an option.

Do I hope the spineless ones go down to defeat? No. But I hope that they realize that they don't have to be nice and complacent pushovers, and can actually stand up for themselves and their party and the people they supposedly represent, and become what they should be - democrats.

Call me a dreamer...

[Jacobin]

19. IMHO if Holy Joe gets the nomination

What's left of the dem party will be not just in tatters after 2004....it will cease to exist or morph into the republican party and become just a part of one state party.

Regardless of whether Dean gets the nomination, it appears clear, to me at least, that he has emboldened (some of) the other Dem candidates to speak out against Bush rather than praising him in hopes of having some of Smirk's perceived popularity rub off on them.

For that, I will be foreever grateful to him.

[mazzarro]

21. This rant does not fly with me!

It is absolute hogwash to state that Dean is the one bringing down the Democratic party when those in the leadership have all along ignored the pleas and solicitations of the party's rank-and-file to stand up and speak on behalf of them. Instead they (Democratic leaders) have found it only proper to wallow in the largesse of and carter to the corporations at the expense of the party.

[Jim Sagle]

23. Thread summary:

:kick:Plop plop plop!!!!!!!

[Duder]

24. Yup, too bad Howard showed up

After all, Democrats were united and doing so well before this upstart diminitive Governor from Vermont came along and reenergized the party. So what if he's brought in people to the party that haven't been active in politics before. Everyone knows the primary draws those fringe lunatics that are going to vote for candidates that cater to their own selfish issues and not those of the sensible moderates. Republicans are probably worried that these loonies will pull Democrats so far to the left that the GOP will have to move left of center just to keep from being too far right.

Also, how dare a candidate that's not part of mainstream Washington attack others by pointing out the difference that he's an outsider. Look, now he's got Democrats uniting behind criticism of Bush on Iraq. http://msnbc.com/news/937347.asp?0sl=-31

So what if Dean's revolutionized fund raising that will benefit Democrats for years to come because he won't be able to do anything with a WH pulpit against a big bad Repuke congress,right?

Shame on you Howard for giving em hell and reminding me what Democrats used to be instead of these "what should be's" of today.

[arendt]

26. This thread is just what Mike Ruppert at FTW is talking about

MR:

"There are strong signs that presidential issues on the Democratic
side are already being manipulated by corporate and financial
interests...There are many disturbing signs that the only choice
offered to the American people will be no choice at all. Under the
psychological rationale , 'This is the way it has to be done', campaign
debates will likely only address half-truths...

"Already we can see the early signs of delusional behavior that is
willingly embrased by equally delusional activists who have begun
a STERILE DEBATE (emphasis mine) about which candidate to
support ...

"Is the 2004 election already being rolled, like soft cookie dough,
away from the issues? Already there are signs that some candidates
who might speak the truth are having their campaigns infiltrated by
expert managers who might dilute the message."

BOTTOM LINE:

Wake up, DUers. If the last three years have taught us anything, it is
that we are not paranoid. The neocons are out to get us, by any means
fair or foul.

The people in this debate need to ask whom this debate serves.
To me it looks like a circular firing squad that only benefits the neocons.
Of course, as I wrote in an essay a while ago, the Dems are being
"played" by the DLC and all the money behind it. So, it may be that
the Democratic Party is already broken.

It may be that Rupert is right with his scenairo: fed up honest Republicans
turn Dem and vote for Holy Joe Lieberman. We are saved from Bush,
only to be delivered to DLC Democrats and Holy Joe who loves Israel
more than Georgie Boy. Or, it could be John Kerry (what is the significance
of Rand Beers joining Kerry's campaign?).

In Rupert's scenario, the progressive wing of the Democrats is outvoted
by the DLC and the Dems. The progressives and the neocons are
disenfranchised together, and we get a new phony moderate Dem,
moderate Repub two-party system that is actually more sterile than
the existing system.

On edit: outvoted by the DLC and the MODERATE Repubs.

Just being paranoid :-).

arendt

[DrGonzoLives]

27. Oh, for Christ's sake

You Dean-haters are really starting to get creative, aren't you? Now, not only is Dean not a real liberal, know he's destroying the party! What's next, he's going to be the cause of cancer and the deaths of puppies?

[opihimoimoi]

28. I happen to think Dean will unite the Party to the point of success

Everything about him smacks of being a wonderful candidate. Other Dem Candidates are wonderful too. Its just that we must go through the process of finding which one will carry OUR message Sanity and Reason returning to the White House. Not to mention Credibility and Respect as well.

He will kill the Booshhhwah

[Cascadian]

44. LOL!

That was a good one, DrGonzo!

John

[Gringo]

29. He is saving a dying party

Thank god we have a democrat who's not ashamed of it. He's moderate enough to win, but he embraces the progressive wing of the party. What is eveybody's bugaboo. If he's a little short-tempered, good, I hope it spurs the other guys into behaving like an opposition party rather than a bunch of sycophants, the most they do is filibuster judges. Where was the democrat hue and cry in the congress about the GOP trying to take away overtime pay? I prefer Kucinich, but I support Dean because he's smart enough, appealing enough, and moderate enough to win over the country. We are at war with the all-time worst administration this country has ever seen. It is NOT the time for milquetoast platitudes. THAT's why Liberman and Gephardt are getting no traction. It's not ideology, they come off as soulless and barely interested, and completely unoffended by anything Bush has done. Why would anyone vote for that?

[CMT]

30. he is not taking down the democratic party he is bringing people in

and because he is not who the establishment expected to be in this postition they attack him as unelectable. Look at the new CBS News Poll tonight on how Americans view Iraq. Dean is being proven right and more Americans are waking up to the conclusion that Bush lied and we are in a mess over there. Dean's opposition to the war and skeptisism of the evidence presented at the time it was being presented only enhances him and brings considerable doubts on the judgements of the Washington democrats who supported the war.

www.cbsnews.com/polls

[WilliamPitt]

31. The easiest, cheapest way to win a primary

is to be a demagogue and bring out the base in pissed off droves. The base votes in primaries, and if you run against your own party, the base will stand up and cheer and then nominate you.

And then the party apparatus, pissed off at the low-road tactic you took, will cut you off at the knees.

See: Pat Buchanan.

[tkmorris]

37. Say Will?

If the people in charge of the Democratic Party are so petty that they'd sabotage their own candidate for the highest office in the land we have bigger problems than I thought, wouldn't you agree?

[WilliamPitt]

38. Definitely

But that doesn't change the hard-edged fact. I'm not interested in destroying the Party to beat Bush, because a destroyed party will not beat Bush. It's a circular firing squad.

[Tanketra]

48. Whereas the historical record of success ...

... when the party apparatus thumbs its nose at grassroots-driven candidates is so much more encouraging, right?

[loyalsister]

39. Good point

The pukes have gone to a lot of trouble to create a base with the religious right and gun nuts.
I really don't think the dems have cultivated a "base" the same way pukes have. Many people think they're the base and whine about betrayal when they aren't catered to. Then turn around and say, look pukes are so successful because they stick together dems should do that. It's just not reality.
It's about self interest, usually and there are a lot of people voting against theirs. Shouldn't we invite them to be our base????
Dean wants to tell white guys with confederate flags on their pick up trucks that he wants to make sure their kids have health care too. --For once they won't run away over guns. Maybe they'll take the time to check out what he has to offer.
He is fair minded, and if you take a close look at what he is saying, you'll really understand the flexibility of his message.
He doesn't want to give women, people who are of different races, who are gay, or people with disabilities "special treatment" he wants EQUAL PROTECTION under the law applied for basic human rights.
The idea of "special treatment" has always turned self-described conservatives off. Dean can work around this. Especially now that they may have benefitted from some ADA accomodations.
There is something new happening here, and I wonder if it's possible to cultivate a base of people who will benefit from the policies with this grassroots effort. Why are people only looking at past failures. Let's take a look at the politics of the possible and consider what a guy with this kind of flexibility has to offer???
The democratic "base should be ordinary people who are to benefit from their policies. I'm talking about Walmart workers, Taco Bell workers, STUDENTS (who btw often don't hate corporations because they hope to work for one.), etc. Not this conglomoration of special interest groups who have specific agenda after another.
The best way to get things done in state politics is to form coalitions so that education and health care are not at cross hairs. In that case the base is kids who need both.
The potential base is sitting at home not paying attention. The activists like us know this and can knock on their doors. We can tell the people who have jobs they hate but stay just for bennies that there's someone who wants to divorce employment from healthcare and open doors for ALL of us.

[CWebster]

61. And then the base...

turns to the third party.

[Kazak]

34. Hogwash!!

I loathe this kind of talk...intended to undercut the momentum gained by a political campaign. Of course, Dean can win, face it...that's what you're afraid of. Why? Because, who are people goin to turn to??? Freaking Satan???

[IndianaGreen]

35. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

The Al From's Jihadist cult is panic stricken that the candidates that they chose to lead the party in November 2004 have bombed with the grass roots.

One of them (not the poster of this thread) went so far as to post a subject-only thread titled "F*ck the liberal base!"

This is what you get when you piss the base...

[Redleg]

36. This is just want Karl Rove wants- Dems sniping at Dems.

Let's just get that f@ck-face Bush out of office and then clean our own house. I believe Dean or Kerry could beat Bush.

[Cascadian]

40. Dean is emboldening the party!

How can you say that? You mean Howard Dean has to be one of those Democrats that keel over and kiss Republican ass? Come on! Howard Dean is getting people who otherwise would never have anything to do with politics back into it. Howard Dean is a real straight shooter and holds nothing back. This is what has been missing with the Democrats. Why do you think he is getting the support he has been gaining?

Also, how can you think Congress is going to be 90% Republican? Keep in mind that not only the there is a presidential election in '04, but you have people in Congress up for election.

The only reason Dean attacks other Demos because he is telling the truth. The Democrats NEED a spine! You cannot deny that you have to have Democrats in Congress that are going to be pitbulls not poodles! The Demos need fighters. Not people who are just going to wimp out.

I don't understand why there are people out there who think in order to function you have to compromise everything and become complacent. That is bogus. If anybody is going to fail, it will be those who have compromised the principles of the Democratic Party by playing Republican/Bush lite.

John

[anamandujano]

45. If Bush is defeated

it'll be because America has come to its senses and that means the repukes will be on the outside lookin' in for awhile.

I'm more worried about the dems in the senate making trouble for President Dean (has a nice ring to it) because he really will be changing the status quo and fatcats of all stripes will be up in arms.

The most important issue right now is getting the psychos out of power and trying to put the globe back on its axis. Who's going to vote against that?

[Classical_Liberal]

50. Dean will cause alot of behind the scenes dems in the beltway

to be sent home, because he didn't win by their rules. If that happens I'll bet alot of our spineless dems who are advised by these people suddenly grow spines. He is a paradigm shift in Washington, He is just like Reagan. He is the death of Reagan era political wisdom. Good riddence!

[Exultant Democracy]

51. Why you are wrong

When Dubya was “elected” he was considered by the people that voted for him to be a “unificator” with a centralist view for a repuke. Since his "election" he has exercised a policy that is so extremely to the right, that I’ve been waiting to get my marching orders back to South Carolina to work the cotton fields, despite this even the most centralist repuks have all lined up and given the Chimp a blank check to govern as he sees fit. Why? because the American people were freaked out, and he abused this to do as he pleased. In the next year two things can happen. The first is that the nation will continue to believe that our favorite simian can do no wrong, in which case we will not be able to win the election. The second is that the people wake up, in which case we won’t be able to lose. If the people wake up, they aren't just going to see one thing like Iraq, they will see it all every foolish, greedy, and evil policy that ChimpCo has enacted, if (and lets pray they do) this happens the people will experience a fear that will be very similar to the fear they felt after 9-11 (who could ever imagine the president would do that to us etc...) this fear and outrage would allow a progressive candidate not only to be elected, but also to fix our country with a united party and country behind him.

[Ripley]

66. Nice Positive Post! Welcome

to DU LeviathanCrumbling! :toast:

I sure hope you're right.

In response to the original post...Oh, why bother? It's amazing how people don't remember what Gore said about Bradley, or Clinton about his Dem opponents. This is a horse race, whether you like it or not.

Dean is not "dividing the party" any more than Kerry is uniting it.

Just another exaggeration of Dean's stance and strategies...in essence this poster would have us believe he is a wolf in sheeps clothes...and when he gets in the White House ***BAM***, he'll give even BIGGER tax breaks to the wealthy and enact PNAC's plan even faster!

Yawn.

[Iverson]

52. interesting choice of words

"Bottome line: he cannot win if he divides up the Dem party ..."

Let us assume that this idea applies to all of the Democratic candidates, not just Dean.

It begs some basic questions, such as ...
- Is any candidate capable of uniting the Democrats?
- Why is the DLC campaigning against the Dem base?
- Is there a unity possible that doesn't resemble tepid Republicanism?

[ima_sinnic]

53. Starpass, who is YOUR candidate?

Somehow I find your rant quite Boortz-like

[Loonman]

54. I'd rather Dean shake up the party

Than that assclown, Nader.

[midnight armadillo]

59. Assclown?

Ralph Nader has done more for the safety, health, and wellbeing of the American citizen than you are ever likely to do in several lifetimes, bucko. The man is uncorruptable and one of the finest citizens America has produced in the best 100 years.

Don't be an idiot. Bush is pres due to the illegal shenanigans in FL along with Gore's utter failure to stand up for himself in the recount.

[RetroLounge]

57. What good is the Democratic party if it can't take down Bush*?

A better question i think.

[Ress1]

58. What's to take down?

GOP controls Senate, WH and House of Reps.

[sendero]

60. People who don't understand...

.... why Dean has surged in popularity need to sit back, take a deep breath and reflect.

Hint: it is not because he is a flaming progressive

The rest of the noms could have easily done the same thing, but with a couple exceptions they have not. The "thing" he is doing is what a lot of us believe is needed to beat Bush*, pure and simple.

As for tearing down other Dems, I've yet to see a real contested primary where that didn't happen in both parties. It is part of the game.

If the DNC/DLC thinks they can "cut the nominee off at the knees", well they might find that a high price tag comes with that sort of action. And just who is slinging the worst mud when they come out basically saying "Dean isn't the guy, we have to do Clinton again". They should be looking at who the PEOPLE think is the front runner, frankly, after 2002, their magical powers hold little sway with me.

The f*cking party belongs to us, not those malingerers. They can take their pink slips and try out for the Puke team for all I care.

[poskonig]

62. What a silly lead post!

Dean's record in Vermont is intelligent and centrist. He appeals to moderates and leftists, and if victorious, will clearly have a unified party behind him.

[jos]

64. How can the party be taken down?

When it is already lying flat on its back. Republicans control the White House, Congress and a slight majority of state houses.

[Le Taz Hot]

65. May I just say

that I'm sick of these flamebait threads? This issue has been brought up and answered -- time and again.

[RichM]

67. Blah blah blah

Destroying the Democratic Party, such as it has been in recent years, would be an imperceptible loss. You won't even know they're gone (except there will be fewer 'D' faces applauding Bush in the Rose Garden as he signs his own legislation).

Wouldn't want to shake things up, would we now. Wouldn't want to take any risks, would we. Certainly, we can't afford to say any true & important things, can we. And by all means, if someone comes along who tells at least some of the truth, let's jump on him.

You are arguing for the status quo. Do you really find that so desirable?