Interesting experience just now: told to "be quiet" on the bus re Iraq

[Barrett808]

So there's this woman named Suzanne who sometimes sits next to me on the bus, and she has a friend who sits on the other side of her. There's a bit of history, in which her friend convinced her to go EST, and I told her my opinion of that outfit. There are also a couple of older ladies who sit in the back with us.

In any case, Suzanne said she had a friend who is going to Iraq today. I expressed dismay, and told her all about how things are falling apart there. She already knows what I think, so she must have expected an earful.

Then a guy I haven't seen before piped up and said it's Suzanne's friend's duty to obey. So we got into an interesting discussion about ethics, illegal orders, Nuremberg, Vietnam, etc.

After all this, Suzanne got off at her stop, and her friend chided me for all this talk. "Eight o'clock in the morning is too early to talk about these things." I pointed out that Suzanne had brought it up, but that didn't weigh with her.

As we got off at our stop, the older ladies said to her, "Good for you," obviously approving of the "shut up" message. Incidentally, I introduced myself and shook hands with the guy, whose name is Kevin.

Thinking this over, I wonder if I really am being inconsiderate in bringing up all this grimness on the morning bus. But then I think that the US is about to destroy Najaf, which will earn us the undying enmity of a billion Muslims around the world. The stakes couldn't be higher. When is an appropriate time to discuss these grave matters?

Anybody have thoughts on the situation? Should I be considerate and shut my mouth, or should I continue to rant? Or should I take another approach?

Thanks in advance, wise people of DU.

[notadmblnd]

1. I bring it up as often as I can, where ever I am

the tellers at the bank, the grocery store. I just like to point out to these people how the chimps policies are affecting them.

[LittleApple81]

7. I even brought it up with a kid from my alma matter asking for money

for the University. We talked for a while, then I said "you reminded me how good that University was for me. Now let me proselitize: if you want it to continue succeeding, please, please, vote for Kerry!" And he said he was already a Kerry supporter. So I told him, promise me you will try to convince somebody who isn't so I don't waste my speal! He was laughing!

[notadmblnd]

15. you may have put him on the spot and made him feel uncomfortable

thats why I like to show them how these policies are directly affecting them.

A young man came by my house who was selling magazine subscription to make money for college. I let the kid go through his spiel and ask what he is studying in college. His response was, computer science. That was my in. I explained to him that he might want to consider a profession where he will actually have a need to put his hands on something. That IT jobs were being off shored by the tens of thousands and that there is a plethora of un employeed computer experts in the country and odds were that he would become one too.

We had quite a long talk and I did buy a subscription to one magazine as his reward for listening to be.. but I do think he took that away with him when he left.

Last month when my position at the company I worked for for 28 years was eliminated, my boss called me in his office and we had a long discussion about company loyalty and the payoff for that loyalty in the big scheme of life. I asked him if thought the 80 hours a week he puts in is really going to payoff in the long run, I asked him if he thought his turn wasn't coming? He told me that he didn't know what to say. I told him he didn't have to say anything,, that I just wanted to give him something to think about.

I Guess that's how I feel about what I do. I like to give people something to think about in terms of how events are affecting them. they are human after all and in those moments when we are all alone with ourselves, maybe just maybe, they'll think abou it.

[LittleApple81]

18. We had talked for a while before I asked him about this. The state

k-12 system is going down the drain (this is Oregon) when it used to be one of the best systems, the University has suffered too, and I do love Oregon (excellent memories). He was in agreement about the k-12 education because he had gone through it before it got shot.

I don't think he felt uncomfortable because I already had given a contribution without making it a pre-condition to listening to me.

Actually, we had a good conversation.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

35. Me too. I've been attacked only about 3% of the time also.

A few will argue back somewhat goodnaturedly. Usually they don't say much and listen. Many agree with me. And I live in a Republican area.

I haven't been tarred and feathered yet...

[Caution]

2. What is the traditional time for the news?

The Morning News, the Morning Paper at the breakfast table. First thing in the morning has always been and should continue to be the time to discuss the news and events of the world around us. And since when does expressing an opinion make one rude? This is nothing more than contributing to one of the great ills of our society which is the tendency to simply ignore the problems and go on with daily life as if those issues are meaningless. Kudos to you for speaking your mind and kudos to you for not backing down.

[TransitJohn]

3. Maybe a walkman?

I don't think you did anything wrong, but if you're gonna see these people in the future, well, let's just say they could _easily_ for am opinion of you that you may not want, and will never be able to shake.

[wtmusic]

4. It's going to take some time

for the truth to sink in with these people.

Don't shut up, but IMO small doses over a long period of time work better than a major rant once in a while.

[EstimatedProphet]

5. I think their reaction would have been the same any time of day

and frankly,one of our problems as liberals/progressives is that conservatives expect us to take their orders, so they think that if they say shut up, we are simply supposed to shut up.
Good for you for not kowtowing!

[SemperEadem]

39. they want to have the sole exclusive right to define what is vulgar

those hens sound like throwbacks from Queen Victoria's era.

[Nite Owl]

6. The fact that your report

is too distasteful for early morning news should really mean that they need to hear it. Maybe now when they turn on the evening news they will realize all that they don't hear and what is being glossed over to keep people like them from questioning the administration.

[drdtroit]

8. You were correct to rant!

These people need to be confronted by the truth and get their heads out of the sand (so to speak).
Eight o'clock in the morning, 10 o'clock at night, whenever and whatever it takes.

[MoonRiver]

9. RANT!

During some of my more infamous rants, I've run people out of restaurants and driven my husband to hiding under his napkin!
:evilgrin:

[eleny]

10. They never want to hear it

So my guess is that they just took that opportunity to try to get you to shut up. Besides, is this the way they support the troops? To shut their ears and sing la-la-la in their lives? Everyone who supports the war needs to face the realities front and center and with all senses wide open. How insensitive of them!

[LiberalEsto]

11. The proper time to rant

Unfortunately, the people living in Iraq, including our military forces, have to deal with what's going on there on a 'round-the-clock basis. I don't think they have special times set aside there for stepping on mines, staging car bombings, of holding firefights.

The least we can do here at home is to keep them in mind in our waking hours. If people don't want to do that, tough!

[Barrett808]

12. Wow, great responses

Didn't expect so many! TransitJohn mentions the Walkman solution -- I suspect they've already formed an unfavorable impression of me. Which doesn't bother me much.

Probably the most important part of the whole exchange was the dialog with Kevin, who was clearly a Republican Bush-backer. We kept it civil and thoughtful. I mentioned this to Suzanne's friend: "A good discussion came of out this," but that didn't move her or the older ladies.

I like the "little bit over a longer time" suggestion, which is my usual approach. But I admit I was in full rant mode, mostly because I had just read in LBN about the imminent attack on Najaf (which has since been postponed).

Amusingly, Suzanne seemed okay with the whole discussion. I was, after all, talking to her, not to any of these others.

[skygazer]

13. Sounds like it was a pretty civilized conversation

In which case, you have every right to air your opinion. As for the time of day, what other time would be more appropriate? No, heavy issues demand discussion, demand debate. It makes no sense for people to only read, discuss or listen to opinions that they agree with - how do you form opinion if you don't know what the other side has to say? Keep talking because if no one talks, no one will hear.

[Tsiyu]

14. The Ignorant NEVER want to hear the TRUTH

Keep plugging and stop worrying about what anybody thinks of you. If someone wants to bring the issues up with me, knowing how i feel, they deserve whatever diatribe they get from me.
I have a friend who sends me anti-Kerry e-mails and makes adoring comments about Bush. She knows I'll just send her three e-mails to her one and that I'll start telling her all the crap i hate about bushista and his Regime. Yesterday she e-mailed me "I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on politics." UhHuh. Send me another stupid e-mail, sweetie, and I'll be at it again....

[Vickers]

16. It's never too early or too late to get educated

Plus, if you want me to be quiet, you'd better be prepared to enforce it.

[LuminousX]

17. Tact

when someone goes to the hospital for a biopsy, that isn't the time to talk about cancer rates. When her friend is shipped off to Iraq, that isn't the time to tell her how Iraq is falling apart and how her friend's life is in danger.

[Barrett808]

21. I didn't mention that her friend is trying to get stationed elsewhere

Suzanne's friend has been actively trying to serve somewhere else, so I thought it appropriate to strongly support this decision. This is what got Kevin into the conversation (he argued that the friend should just obey).

This friend is also in the Army, so he's likely to see combat. I quipped that he should try kissing his CO, but we know that even this won't get you tossed out nowadays; they need all the bodies they can get to throw on the fire.

[Cybergata]

19. I know there are some times when it isn't...

a proper time to express one's opinions....BUT on the bus in the morning! Really now, I think you were just talking about something that lots of people would rather pretend doesn't exist. You weren't being inconsiderate. These are really weird times we live in. :hippie:

[prolesunited]

20. Keep speaking

truth to power. It's the only way. Those that want to silence you are only afraid of the truth.

[GiovanniC]

22. Ask Her

"When IS it appropriate to talk about these things? Should I wait until at least 9:00 AM before we discuss the four-year-old who cries in the corner while her mother, uncle and brother lie in a lifeless heap on the living room floor?

Is 10:30 too early to talk about the look on a mother's face when her little boy is burned almost beyond all recognition by US bombs while nearby soldiers blast a song with the lyrics, 'Burn Motherfucker, Burn?'

Is lunchtime a more appropriate time to speak of the 22-year-old girl with a small new diamond ring on her left hand who cries herself to sleep with the knowledge that someday she'll have to tell her little girl that her daddy's was a hero but she'll never meet him and he'll never come home?

How about at 2:45 we get together to discuss a 40-year-old woman who spent last night retching because a man came to her door to tell her that her not-yet-legal-drinking-age son was killed when his patrol was hit by a rocket propelled grenade in Najaf?

Then, we'll get drinks after work so that we can converse about a 24-year-old woman who wonders if her dreams of getting married and having children are over now that she lost all of her limbs and had her face disfigured by a roadside bomb in Fallujah.

And then we can stay up really late tonight and chat about the ten-year-old boy who sneaks downstairs to hear his mom pray to God for the strength to raise him and his little sister without their father.

Would those times be more acceptable for your precious 'beautiful mind'?"

[info being]

32. Exactly

Well said.

[William Bloode]

23. I had to put up with alot of it......

During the lead up to war and the protest's. I actually had to plow under 1 or 2 freaks that thought it would be a smart move to spit on a 6'6 285lb man.

[Ducks In A Row]

24. you didn't start the conversation

but you were right to voice the truth. especially in light that this information is being ignored by the media. if they can't tell the truth, then it's up to us to do so.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

25. Please continue

to voice your dissent. I do and we all need to keep it up. The only thing I would like to mention to everyone, is to keep it civil. Do not call names, mock or raise your voice.
Use humor where possible. Some will hear the message better that way. Everytime I mention the WMD's or the 900+ dead military people, I simply ask 'do you think it's been worth it?" Many cannot answer or change the subject.

[Barrett808]

30. It was encouraging that Kevin and I could have a civil conversation

With him obviously (but somewhat defensively) on the other side of the issue.

[democrank]

26. Suzanne`s friend is right.

True patriots never, ever allow themselves to be dragged into conversations about unpleasant realities like the death toll in Iraq or the long lines at the food banks. True patriots just go on about their business, even doubling their purchases during any code orange.

Terrorist-loving liberals just whine constantly about harmless, fun-loving prison pranks or the fact that we`ve never found WMDs in Iraq.

Suzanne`s friend must have had a difficult time getting on with her fun day, so next time try to remember: Do not tell the truth. It may interrupt someone`s leisure hours.

[pookastew]

27. Hate to be the dissenting voice...

...but I wouldn't have done it.

Not because you aren't correct, but because it was not likely to have a positive effect.

Who were you hoping to convince? The guy, the ladies, or both?

You will never convince old ladies like that of anything approaching the idea of "not obeying orders". If they're from the "greatest generation" three-quarters of their sense of self-worth is from having "done their duty". You might as well tell them they should have been lesbian anarchists.

You will not change their value systems. If you want to convince them you have to make arguments on their terms, accepting their values.

Instead of talking sense about illegal wars, just shake your head and mumble something about "Paul Wolfowitz sending poor Alabama kids to kill Arabs for Israel..."

Despicable? Maybe. But you're up against Fox News, Joe McCarthy, etc. Their values--and prejudices--have been formed over a lifetime. Don't fight them--use them.

[Barrett808]

29. I was really only directing my comments to Suzanne

To give her and her Army friend a sense that it's entirely reasonable not to want to go to Iraq.

All these other folks just butted in. I was trying to modulate my somewhat booming voice to encompass only Suzanne, but apparently if you wanted listen in, you could.

[pookastew]

31. Oh well, then screw them.

Seriously, I'm not criticizing. It's more a tactical thing.

I just don't think you can change peoples value systems (especially old people). You can change how their value systems interpret political events, though.

[Barrett808]

33. I hear ya

I've been wondering if I'm the only one in this morning's scene who's still thinking about it.

[fudge stripe cookays]

36. Bull. It's difficult, but it CAN be done.

There are plenty of posts on DU every day about DUers changing their aging parents' minds about who they're going to vote for, and their attitudes about what's going on in this country. It's not all political, but that can be a large force in changing their minds.

My 72 year old mother is a good example. She was raised a lifelong racist and tried to do the same with me.

I tried a Pavlovian experiment after college when I realized it was wrong to use names for people the way she did. I told her that every time she used the N word I would walk out of the room. She started off not believing me, but I did. Every time. And she eventually quit using it. Every time she made a remark about blacks, I reminded her of some of the wonderful, remarkable black people that we know.

Eventually, she got it. From a lifelong Republican, she changed. She is now a diehard Democrat. I did that. She even joined the meetups for Howard Dean, sitting and working with gay men. This is the woman who told me many times she wished thay'd just go back in the closet.

When we started talking one night, and I told her I wanted to send some anonymous flowers to teh gay couples getting married in San Francisco a few months ago, she said, "That's a nice thing to do."

I thought I was going to pass out from shock.

[Barrett808]

37. Great story. Glad you stuck with it. n/t

[pookastew]

40. Ok...

...over the span of many years you might change your mother's value system, as long as there isn't someone else working on her from the other direction. Congrats.

But I think most people have success with reinterpreting existing values systems, and then letting logic take over--which then changes the values on its own. And if you think about it, that's what you did. Your mother was smart enough to realize that if she liked a black person or a gay person then maybe blacks and gays weren't bad.

How would the poster have pulled that trick off on the bus this morning?

[frank frankly]

28. please don't stop

I saw a gentleman with a kerry button on his hat at a restaraunt in a semi-conservative area. My date and I told him how much we appreciated his button and his wife said, "you just made his day."

don't assume silence is condemnation. talk about the war, talk about bush the terrorist incompetent looting POS pResident *.

:yourock:

[Barrett808]

34. Thanks for your thoughts, everybody!

This thread has been very helpful. We'll see what happens on the bus tomorrow.

[SemperEadem]

38. I'd have said

9 something in the morning was a little too early for planes to fly into the WTC when it could have been prevented had the President done his job, but still they did.

You don't have to sit back here and listen in on my conversation, either, nosybody--you can go sit up front and talk to the driver.

[coalition_unwilling]

44. Wow--Great post

I like to think of it with a rural metaphor. I grew up on a farm and would often throw a rock into the pond to watch the concentric ripples move out towards the shore.

Think of your talk whenever it occurs as throwing a rock into the pond of discourse--you can never know exactly where the ripples from your rock will wind up.

A friend from work and I have worn peace signs on our shirt at our place of work every day for the past 18 months. We work for a subsidiary of the Los Angeles Times and eat in the LATimes cafeteria every day. It gives me great pleasure knowing that representatives of the corporate media have to see our "rock in the pond" every time they cross paths with us.

I don't know whether our peace sign wearing vigil has borne fruit but a month ago on Sunday, the LA Times ran a two-column editorial under its masthead calling Iraq a "Disaster". I'd like to think that one of the editorial writers took courage from seeing our peace signs. I'll never know for sure because it was an un-signed editorial. By the way, I'm still wearing the peace sign and am now also wearing a button that says 'Stop the War'.

[peace4allpeople]

41. Duty to obey?

Then a guy I haven't seen before piped up and said it's Suzanne's friend's duty to obey.???????? What is this?1984?

[newyawker99]

42. Hi peace4allpeople!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Barrett808]

43. Hey there, peace4allpeople!

His point was that Suzanne's friend had volunteered to join the Army, and now he's committed to following orders.

Our subsequent discussion had to do with illegal orders and war crimes. I cited Gen. Telford Taylor's Nuremberg and Vietnam: an American Tragedy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812902106/qid=1092262192/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6004297-2900711?v=glance&s=books).

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[RedSock]

45. 8:00 am in Iraq

... someone is getting his or her head blown off or his legs ripped to ribbons.

[genius]

46. KEEP TALKING. The public needs an education - whether they want it or not

They might not act favorably the first or second time they hear this stuff. But if enough of us talk when we are out in public, eventually it will sink in. I use every excuse I can find to talk about Bush and what he is really up to and I bet I am saying much worse things about Bush and the Iraq War than you are.

[democratreformed]

47. Is 8 o'clock in the morning too early for the citizens of Iraq or

our soldiers over there? Do people think they observe certain "rules" about when and where to feel bad about their situation? By all means, continue to rant - please.

[Barrett808]

48. I might mention that on the bus this morning... n/t