Take heed...you've been warned...

[Q]

- Some DUers are saying that they're tired of seeing 'gloom and doom' posts. It goes without saying that they're not 'fun', but they're very necessary in a time that parallels that of German history and the rise of Hitler.

- You were warned that America and the Democratic party would pay a price for not standing up to the Bush* cabal when they staged a coup in 2000, did nothing to stop terrorists on 911 and then used that attack to declare aggressive war, nullify the Constitution and create a secretive shadow government.

- Sometimes reality sucks...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it and find ways to counter the fascist takeover of our government. Some seem to think that simply keeping a 'positive attitude' will make all the bad things go away. But it looks more like denial when we're afraid to talk about real threats to our party, country and democracy.

- Don't be shocked if Bush* stays in office and continues to remold America in the image of his power brokers and fanatical followers. The money, propaganda and political machinery is once again in place to install a leader against the will of the majority. Please don't underestimate their power.

[Shoeempress]

1. The problem is that this is all talk, with few proposals for action

other than letter writing.

[Q]

6. Proposals for 'action' have been ignored time and again...

...and the sad thing is that it could be too late to do anything of substance.

- Many of us 'older' DUers have been yelling for four years about the dangers of enabling the Bush* regime or allowing them to get a foothold on 'legitimate' power.

- The reality? Millions of Americans will vote for Bush* because they've been fed lies...and the record hasn't been corrected by either the free press or the loyal opposition. We've been fooled into believing that there was nothing we could do because we're in the minority...but that's one of the biggest lies of all.

- The moral of the story is that you can't allow criminals to get away with their crimes because it only encourages and emboldens them to comimit more crimes and grab more power.

[belle]

72. and, so what are we supposed to do NOW, Nostradamus?

[BeHereNow]

74. Figure out how

you are going to survive what's coming-
'cause you are not going to be able to stop it.
No matter who wins the election.
BHN

[truthspeaker]

2. I don't mind gloom and doom if it's based on real facts

What bothers me, and I think a lot of other people, is when people get all scared of Bush winning for no good reason.

Read Kerry's last couple of speeches and tell me Democrats are still standing up to the Bush cabal.

And I hate to say it, but going relatively easy on Bush at the DNC seemed to work. The Rethugs look like the bad guys now because of their behavior yesterday, and the Dems are using their attacks now, in response, instead of last month. Works for me.

[Q]

9. For 'no good reason'?

- What you're saying is that we've learned NOTHING from history. The Bushies literally stole an election in 2000 and they GOT AWAY WITH IT. How can you say there's no concern that they might do it again in Nov.?

- And how can you say that the DLC's do nothing approach of 'going easy on Bush*' has been successful? How the GOP 'looks' means nothing to the millions of Americans who will vote for them. This approach has only added to the dumbing down of America and has allowed the corporate media to paint Bush* as the only one able to protect us from ourselves and terrorists.

- Kerry responding to smears against his record is simply a defensive move and will do little to correct the record of lies and deceit known as 'truth'. Many Americans think 2000 was a close race and that Saddam attcked America on 911. We have failed in informing the people about their real choices. Too little, too late.

- I'm glad all of this 'works' for you. Let's talk again after the election.

[truthspeaker]

24. Again, read the speeches Kerry gave yesterday

Yes, many of the problems you describe are real.

So, should we try to do something about them, or should we go in the corner and cry because it's all so depressing?

[Q]

43. Let me reverse the query...

...what can YOU or the People do about what's happening to America? You can vote...that's about it...besides writing a few letters that are seldom if ever read.

- Yes...we should cry about what's happening to our country. We should cry that we were so naive in 2000 that we allowed our leadership to give credibility to that most unDemocratic thing we dared call an 'election'. What we 'allowed' to happen in 2000 was akin to watching a coup take place and then all agreeing to pretend it didn't happen.

- Are we prepared for November knowing what we know about the Bush* cabal? We've seen that Bush* and Cheney can stand up on the podium, smear their opponents, outright lie about Iraq and the war on terrorism and making America safe...and the throngs of Bushbots cheer them like Hitler at a brownshirt rally.

- It seems that a good half of America is willing to give up their Constitution and freedom for the promise of 'strong' leadership and security. Unfortunately...the 'other half' is devoid of voice, money or power. Worse...our leadership is in appeasement mode...agreeing with Bush's* lies about patriot acts, aggressive wars and battles against faceless terrorists.

[belle]

73. So, essentially, your message is: it's too late...so, we should, what

wear sackcloth and ashes? And this helpful because...? We'll be more morally prepared when they come to shove us into the ovens? What?

I honestly can't tell what your point is, other than to make yourself feel better by shaking a finger at everybody. We're all going to hell, but those of us who didn't wring our hands and moan about it all the way till the bitter end are clearly to blame for it. Certainly, YOU aren't; because you TOLD US SO. Isn't that right?

Look: learned helplessness is NOT useful, and that is exactly what you're advocating here. Come up with an actual plan of action that we're not following, and I'll listen. Otherwise, it's just a lot of preparation for a nice big tombstone with "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO" engraved in it.

[wyldwolf]

57. Correction, Q

the Democratic Party convention was, as always, organized and planned by the DNC, not the DLC.

[Capn Sunshine]

70. Time Magazine's latest poll Bush 52% Kerry 41%

That's pretty compelling if you ask me.

[Q]

3. Allow me to add...

...that we're not talking about Bush's* power....but those who installed him in office and continue to finance his insanity. He is but a mere puppet...too naive and stupid to understand the implications of his actions. All he wants is power and to be admired and...worshipped.

- And to those who think everything will be okay if Kerry wins...it's not going to happen as long as the Right's 'shadow government' continues to run things behind the scenes.

[mopaul]

5. we're screwed whoever wins

a hard truth to swallow.

[BeHereNow]

71. SO True-

The advance of empire will look different under Kerry,
but the results will be the same.
Anyone who does not comprehend this fact
is going to be totally unprepared for what is coming.

BHN

[mongo]

82. I do not believe that Kerry is part of the Shadow Gov't

But I do believe that he is aware of it. He will clean house when he gets in office. If we have a fair election....

I am worried too.

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. There's a difference

between bashing Bu$h, and bashing Kerry.

When people are saying that we shouldn't be negative and that they are tired of 'gloom and doom' posts, I think they are referring to all the crap about how Kerry isn't doing enough to respond to Bu$h, or his campaign is going nowhere, oh no, we're losing, omg the polls show Bu$h ahead, that sort of thing.

I think when we engage in Kerry bashing, we are only doing Rove's work for him. That doesn't mean we shouldn't offer constructive criticism, or call him on it, if he really screws up. But often it is not what you say, it is how you say it. My personal policy, is to try to never post something, that I wouldn't say to someone's face, even god.

For the next two months, we all need to focus on bashing Bu$h and I don't think any real DUer has any intention of doing otherwise.

[Q]

11. But the reality is...neither Kerry or the Dem party...

...has done enough to counter Bush's* lies and deceit...and it all started before the 2000 election. The Bushies have been allowed to grab power they didn't earn or deserve.

- Rove's work has already been done. He doesn't WANT the truth known about Bush* and Democrats have accomodated him in every way. Bashing Bush* at this point will do absolutely no good. It's something that should have been done four years ago and never stopped.

- The US is killing and dying in Iraq. Can you tell us why? Because Saddam was a bad man? Nope. We're there because the Bushies control our government and have neutralized all opposition. Democrats have simply rubber stamped every Bush* desire...from Ashcroft to Homeland security to the patriot act. Demcrats helped create the Bush* Frankenstein and now we don't know how to stop him.

[louis c]

38. I don't mind constructive criticism

but any bullshit that there is no difference between that asshole in the white house now, and the Dems is the work of the political Devil.

That kind of talk plays right into the hands of our enemies.

[Raster]

7. We draw the line here. $hrubco must be stopped.

There is no alternative.

[BiggJawn]

8. Need to shine a light on these dens of cockroaches...

PNAC, Hudson Institute, all of them.

You sounds like my Girlfriend, Q. She says she's afraid Shrub will be re-appointed to the White House, no matter how the country votes. I hope she's wrong, but she's no dummy....

The RNC "hatefest" worked because it was put on for "The Base". they weren't trying to "woo Soccer Moms" this week, that's the job of Hate Radio's klaxons.
The undecideds who are politically aware enough to even think about watching either convention don't trust either party anyway.

[Q]

13. Did you see the faces of the fanatics at the RNC convention?

- It's was like a Nazi rally. They cheered, screamed and applauded...not really caring what the speakers were saying...only that they were in full control of our country and knew it.

- I indeed hope I'm wrong. But as I've said before...everything is in place for a repeat of 2000...including our candidates getting advice on appeasement from the DLC.

[deutsey]

19. Interesting note on the DLC:

According to Thomas Frank in "What's the Matter with Kansas", Koch Industries, an oil company based in Kansas that has deep ties to rightwing and libertarian causes, has helped "prop up" the Democratic Leadership Council.

The DLC's strange bedfellows that also receive support from Koch:

The Manhattan Institute, Citizens for a Sound Economy, and the presidential campaign of Big Dubya.

[deutsey]

10. Sadly, I agree...

I knew when the Dems rolled over in 2000 and the corporate media blatantly began spewing Bush propaganda that we were in deep trouble.

I remember lots of posts here at DU in 2002 reassuring us that the Dems had a strategy to win back the House and/or the Senate. :evilfrown:

We can win, but it will take an enlivened, informed, and outraged democracy fighting not just Bush (who is but a symptom of the larger problem), but the corporatist/fascist oligarchy solidifying its power behind the scenes. Read this month's issue of Harper's about how neo-cons have been financing publications, think tanks, networks, professorial chairs, etc., since the early to mid-'70s. Read also Thomas Frank's "What's the Matter with Kansas" to see how the Right has used "values" to gain support of the working and middle classes, while the Right dismantles programs and policies designed to protect workers, minorities, the elderly, etc.

I hate to say it, but I don't see much evidence of an effective democratic (small d) counterbalance to what's happening in this country. I'm still pulling for Kerry, but his campaign is not filling me with much hope of victory in November.

[MisterP]

58. like everyone saying the pro-IWR Dems had a "secret plan" to turn

it around on Ape.
I've stopped waiting.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

12. blah blah blah blah blah

This thread is foolish

get out there and do something about it!

[cthrumatrix]

14. exactly.... it's in our hands... bust your ass to change things

[Q]

18. Actually...it's NOT in our hands...

...because the only power we have is our votes. But what if our election system is full of fraud and our votes manipulated, 'lost' or simply not counted?

- The power to make changes rests in the hands of the two major political parties. We are but pawns in that system.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. SO WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

Move? :shrug:

[democratreformed]

32. I want an answer too!

Is this person going to act or just keep posting crap trying to kill our spirits????

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. I don't think we'll get an answer

[democratreformed]

35. Me neither......

Darn, I'm heartbroken. LOL.

[Kanary]

47. The admins have very thoughtfully provided you with an option

If a poster is "killing your spirits", there's a little box with an "x" in it by the thread.... click on that, and voila! the thread is gone, and your "spirits" are saved.

Glad to be of help.

:hi:

Kanary

[democratreformed]

49. Thanks, but I didn't say anyone was killing my spirits.

I said "trying to". :hi:

[Kanary]

59. Paranoia doesn't become you. That little square still works.

:hi: back atcha

[democratreformed]

63. Paranoia?!?

I was actually being snarky up there and you likely know it. I do that every once in a while. It just comes out of nowhere and gets me in trouble, you know? Honestly, it's only every once in a while.

I know there are some serious issues here. I know that John Kerry is not the knight in shining armor come to save us all. I know that we have much work to do even AFTER we get Kerry elected. I promise I will be there.

[Kanary]

64. Yup, that's right, PARANOID.

Claiming that someone is trying to "make" you feel something is a bit paranoid........ check the psychology books on that.

As much as you might want to think you're the center, you are NOT the target when someone else is expressing what they are feeling about something. But, I'm sure you know that. :)

And, happily being "snarky", then being oh-so-shocked when someone calls you on it, is just a tad .......silly......

That little square is still there, btw. Wouldn't want you to get too upset, y'know....

Kanary

[democratreformed]

67. You're exactly right. It is.

Sorry, I must've forgotten what I learned in psychology.

And, you're right about something else. I misread the original post on this thread. It didn't deserve a snarky reply.

However, there are several threads currently in this forum that are here for the specific purpose to disrupt and cause dissent.

Paranoid or not, those other ppl. who post those things believe that they have the power to cause those things. I didn't say that I believed that they could.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

83. Ok but I'd rather discuss than ignore people

ok?

[LibertyorDeath]

52. "...because the only power we have is our votes."

Q I hear you & I know it's way worse than most want to believe but

Hope springs eternal as they say & I have to have hope or what's the fucking point.

Respectfully

This assertion is incorrect. History is full of examples of people power.

"...because the only power we have is our votes." Not so.

People are the Power.

[wyldwolf]

60. We have more power than just our votes ... at least SOME of us do...

...meaning those on DU who do more than bitch, moan, complain, "warn," and wag their fingers.

Some of us are exerting influence by...

...running for office...
...writing letters....
...registering others to vote...
...canvassing neighborhoods with a religions fervor...
...educating friends, family, and co-workers...

..and much more.

Some of us are. Are you?

[deutsey]

15. I've been out there doing something about it since the 2000 theft

I understand (and agree with) what you're saying, but I also don't think what Q is saying is at all foolish.

[sangh0]

17. It's foolish pointing of fingers

It's just one more way of saying "I'm right, and if Bush* wins, it's someone else's fault"

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. exactly

[deutsey]

26. It's not foolish to point out those who have helped bring us

to this precarious point in our Republic's history.

J'Accuse: DLC. J'Accuse: DNC. J'Accuse: Corporatists. J'Accuse: Rightwing nuts. J'Accuse: Mainstream media. J'Accuse: Those of us (myself included) who complacently ignored how our democracy was being undermined over the years leading up to the 2000 debacle.

Frank Zappa, of all people, were warning us years ago:

Nov. 1979 - quoted in Relix Magazine
The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre.

[sangh0]

40. It's foolish to say it's the Democrats who committed a coup

which is Q's position. It's even more foolish to say the power to change things is "NOT in our hands", as Q did in this thread. I'm surprised you didn't notice that Q says we can't do anything about this.


Frank Zappa, of all people, were warning us years ago

Frank Zappa didn't think we could not change things. As a fan of his for several decades, and personal friend of his some of his bandmates, I think comparing Q's words to Frank Zappa's is a disgrace to Zappa's memory. Zappa always fought back and would never suggest that it was futile to do so.

[wyldwolf]

61. poster has a history of this

[Sterling]

68. Poster has been here longer than you.

And has far more credibilty as an objective poster.

[wyldwolf]

69. No. He hasn't. Seriously. And what would that have to do with his..

...posting history, anyway? Someone could have a month long history on DU and still develop a pattern - which he has. And he has 0 credibility.

[Q]

21. We've all been fighting since 2000 and before...

...but we're losing track of what we're fighting for and against. This is not a 'normal' election...one candidate against another in a fair and free democracy. This is a fight for our very survival...a fight of democracy against tyranny.

- Hell....we KNOW that the criminal Bush* government can't afford to give up the power they've spent a lifetime trying to wrestle from the people. We know from experience they will do ANYTHING to win. Are we prepared for this? Do we have a plan B or even a plan A?

[sangh0]

41. Whining is NOT fighting

and saying that the power to change things is NOT in our hands, as you did in an earlier post, is the opposite of fighting. It's conceding the battle, which is exactly what you accuse Dems of doing.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

22. What he's saying is valid - what is the point though?

I repeat: Get out there and do something about it

[sangh0]

42. Duetsey's activity does NOT excuse Q's defeatism

and saying that we do NOT have the power to change things is a concession to defeat.

Ironically, this is what Q constantly accuses the Dems of even though he is just as complicit

[Q]

16. Don't worry...I'm only part of the 'focus group'...

...that both parties like to discount as naysayers and 'radicals'. But isn't it more 'foolish' not to recognize what's right in front of your face? Will you call this kind of thread foolish if Bush* stays in office? Will you call for a course correction in how the Dem party approaches the Bush* cabal?

- Many of us were saying these same things in 1994, 2000 and 2002. Democrats didn't fight when they had the chance and now they're in the minority and out of power.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. What the fuck are you talking about?

Are you advocating some nihilistic throwing up of the hands - WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

You gonna go to a polling place and monitor the elections? You gonna help drive people to vote? You gonna work with legal action teams to make sure it isn't stolen again?

Or you gonna just spew pessimism?

[Q]

28. I've encountered...

...people like you on DU for years. You whine and moan about people trying to warn of the impending collapse of democracy...but can't accept the reality of what we HAVEN'T DONE to turn things around.

- This thread is about YOU and everyone else who can't recognize that we've allowed the fox to take over the henhouse and now wonder why all the chickens are dead.

- This election isn't about Kerry. Everyone knows he would be a better president. This election is not only about stopping Bush*...but knowing WHY we need to stop him. We must acknowledge that we've allowed a madman and his henchmen to take control of our country with little effort or opposition.

- Our party helped Bush* grab power every step of the way. We need to understand how this happened.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. I already know everything you're talking about and have the whole time

Your condescension is telling

What are you going to do about it?

[Q]

34. You're not listening...it's not up to 'us'...it's up to our leadership...

...and political parties. If we can't convince OUR party that they've taken the wrong direction...then there is nothing we can do beyond voting and hoping Bush's* SC doesn't intervene.

- I'm going to do what I've always done: vote for the best of the worst and hope for the best. We elect people to represent our best interests. That doesn't happen any more. Politicians of both parties represent themselves and their lobbyists first and the people second. The Democratic leadership's support of the Bush* regime and their horrible policies were in THEIR interest...not ours.

- You can't repair something that you refuse to admit is broken. We must do more than simply vote out the Bush* Frankenstein we helped to create...we must also dismantle the 'laboratory' where he was built.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. I admit its fucking broken - however you can do something

Change happens from the ground up. Volunteer, write letters, run for office, work in your local legislature, write LTTE's, write the leaders, agitate and activate

Your "holier than thou" tome is insulting and childish. You are correct in what you're saying - but change is possible. If you really feel it isn't why are you on a Democratic Message Board? :shrug:

[johnnie]

27. You are correct..to a degree

Yes, some things might remain the same if Kerry gets elected. This is a VERY big machine in which we all live under. I'm not naive enough to think that a new President in the White House will change all that has been set in motion for the last few decades.
In 1999 I was hit hard with a huge dose of reality. I knew the shrub was going to win as soon as they put his name out there as a contender. I then watched as the Democrats put up a sorry excuse for a fight. I was so disgusted that I turned my back on this politic shit and walked away.
There are players in this whole machine we don't even know about, and never will. I have a feeling that the decision has already been made and either of the two will play along to some degree. They have to.
With that said, I can only hope that John Kerry is the one who is sitting in the Oval office come next year. That person is the one who represents us as a people in the eyes of us American and the eyes of the rest of the world. Bush has shown the world what it is like when the court jester is sitting on the king's throne. His supporters are mostly the self-righteous, egotistical, uncaring people in this nation and they feel they are the ones who are in power because of their like-minded President.
John Kerry might not have the appeal that Bill Clinton does, but he has a lot more compassion and humanistic qualities than any of the Bush clan.
I am fighting for my Country back, but it will never be my Country. It is still controlled by the same people who began here and it will remain in their hands long after I am gone. But it still means something to me to have a leader that is portraying more humanistic values than that of greed and power.

[Rabelais]

29. thanks

I am afraid to have an opinion on anything because of the paranoia around here. I guess Carville must be a gloom and doom'er since he basically said the same things.

As Hal put it in the movie 2001- this mission is too important for circle jerking to jeapordize it.

[Q]

31. It's like the 'crazy aunt in the attic' syndrome...

...where everyone knows about it but no one wants to talk about it. But never be afraid to express your opinion. We need more, not less of this.

- But we have to face certainly realities. One is that we enabled Bush* and his corporate cronies and now will have a very difficult time taking back the power that he was allowed to grab. Another reality we must address is that we have enabled the Bush* regime to commit war crimes in the name of freedom and democracy. This 'war on terrorism' has always been a lie and we know it.

- This is not to say that we shouldn't do everything we can to get this regime out of our WH and government. But even if they go we have to realize that a corrupted system will remain in place and the puppeteers will still be in power.

[Selwynn]

36. I agree with you Q - I read Palasts book recently and was reminded...

...about the theft of the election. I was reminded that when it happened, I wasn't even willing to call it theft, and that I didn't even know about/pay attention to the real issue which was the illegal denial for 59,000 (or more, now it looks like 90,000 or more) minority votes and the cover-up afterwards.

I'm disappointed in myself that I didn't take a different attitude back them. I'm embarrassed to say when someone would bring up something about the disenfranchised black voters in Florida, I would blow it off. Not because I'm a racist, but because I didn't believe something liked that happened in my country. One good thing that come from it was that I started being a lot more critical and skeptical of my pre-assumptions, as well as the information I see and hear. I started developing my scientific mind and worked on critical thinking, logical analysis and got advice on how to research. I wanted to be alert in the future...

Now, I've never let the Bush Administration off the hook for 9.11. They had enough information to take better precaution, which very possibly could have prevented the attack, they did nothing to prevent it out of what I believe to be depraved indifference - their total focus was on 1) tax cuts b) Iraq c) doing the opposite of anything Clinton had done, including pay attention to Bin ladin. Plus the fact that I think in the back of their mind, they figured a terrorist attack could only help, so what the hell. I opposed the war with my heart, head, feet, mouth and money. And there is almost nothing I care more about than the issues of civil liberties in America (which reminds me I need to denote again to the ACLU). And I continue to do everything I can to resist and oppose this administration.

However - the majority of Americans are still apathetic. I wouldn't be surprised at all of Bush gets another four years.

[Q]

39. And the Bushies have heaped insult upon injury since then...

...and what have we, as a political party, done to stop it? Little or nothing.

- When the stolen election was fading into the memory hole...up pops 9-11. Yes...we were in shock that so many people died on that day...but we should have done something when Bush* & Company used their deaths for political advantage after DOING NOTHING to stop the attacks.

- Democrats know full well what Bush* is going to do. They know he'll try to steal the election in November. They know he's covering up the Saudi connection to terrorism. They know there was no valid reason to invade and occupy Iraq. They know of his dereliction of duty on 9-11 and afterwards. But they refused to act and correct the record on so many issues. They knew the corporate media was failing to inform the American people and did nothing to correct the record.

- It's not enough for us to simply say that Bush* is a bad president and that WE could fight a 'better' war on Iraq and terrorism. Honesty and integrity demand that we admit that the war on terrorism is as phony as Bush* and is intended as an instrument for war profiteering, a rationale to cancel the Bill of Rights and wage aggressive wars.

- We've allowed a criminal enterprise to take control of our government. Voting them out is not enough. They must pay for their crimes against our nation and humanity. Or is the 'rule of law' extinct?

[LunaC]

44. Bringing "freedom" to the world

or rather, shoving it down the throats of targeted Mideast countries, is the part of his speech that gave me chills and confirmed that the PNAC is hellbent in continuing its quest for Pax Americana. War, war, war.......forevermore!

[Q]

45. And you can see the manipulation of the polls...

...as Bush* 'jumps into the lead' by ten points. We'll see one dirty trick after another right up to the election. The 'free press' will read the WH script, smear Kerry and make Bush* look like a hero.

- And if the numbers are 'close' on election day...all the Neocons have to do is grease a few palms and change a few numbers in the paperless machines to pull off a 'win'. The Bushies don't care if they win by cheating....to them, anything goes for the 'greater good' of the GOP.

- This time...I hope Democrats and everyone on the Left are prepared to take to the streets.

[LunaC]

50. The multitudes took to the NYC streets in peaceful protest

I think you can be damn sure they'll raise more than a little hell if Bush* gets selected again.

On the other hand, the Repugs are likely to take to the streets if Kerry somehow manages to overcome the media blockade and thwart BBV.

Ya' know.....we may be headed for blood in the streets no matter what happens. Damn. I despise Bush* even more for causing this seemingly insurmountable schism!

[sweetheart]

46. Its the readership

Q, since we've been writing on DU, it has gone from a fringe forum,
to the idea-central for the party that will govern the USA in the
coming times, as the neocons are disgraced by the results of their
wars and falsities.

Now, a population of people, is reading avidly to discover the truth,
to make the right choice for november. It is heavy energy, this
scared shitless 280,000,000 americans plus the totally freaked out
rest of the planet, that is spooked really spooked at the possibility
of a bush win, and the decline of western liberalism that an american
decline entails... its a no win.

There is a deep deep future of humanity at stake in this poll.
People are right to be scared.
Without Kerry, there will be no strong america.

[BeHereNow]

48. Here you go Q: Indymedia article

http://www.utah.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/7253.php
Snip-
"Understand this as well. It doesn’t matter that all Empires fall, every imperial vision comes to an end. This will be
cold comfort when it is pressed forward at your expense, your children’s expense, if not their lives, your future.
It never matters that the Empire will fail, it is always that “it will try.” Bush the Smaller, a Four Star General, or Lady
Hillary of WalMart, will, each of them in their own way, their own speed of endeavor, their own stratagems will
continue to try. Try as you might, face nothing else, but face this fundamental fact. It is in their trying that your
future holds such bleakness.

Therefore, what can we do about America evolving, and now evolving very rapidly indeed, into Empire? Well,
exactly nothing. Nobody can do anything about this; nothing, nada, nyet. One can join the elite (though the
doors are mostly closed now), work for them (though they need fewer and fewer every year), or try as you
might to “become” one of their minions, monopoly corporate dupes, lobbyists, or elected D)s or R)s. Or you will
either learn to live with it, or die; live within it, and survive (and only those which truly understand all this will have
any chance at all for that). And survive meaning just that and no more, scratching out a living as your standard
of living slides ever closer to the rawest form of poverty. Or live on Empire’s fringe, outside of affluence, in a
moderate poverty, outside of the system, outside of its laws... “outlaws,” that is to say. That is what Homeland
Security is really for. To protect the homeland, the Empire’s roots, its body politic from the likes of you."

I have this bookmarked on my computer along
with several others by this writer- Craig Hulet.

I understand PERFECTLY where you are coming from.

BHN

[UdoKier]

51. Crying "We're Gonna Lose" is counterproductive.

Saying "Kerry neeeds to get his ass in gear and FIGHT" is constructive criticism.

There's been too much of the former and not enough of the latter.

[Zorra]

53. We take back the WH and Congress and don't stop until we wipe

every trace of the filthy cockroaches out of our government and keep them out forever. We don't rest until we put enough pressure on the Kerry administration to where we force them to give the PNAC fascist conspirators their American "Nuremburg".

This is not about having a "positive attitude".

It is about knowing in our hearts that united en masse we the people are fucking INDOMITABLE. We have a job to do. It is the most important job in the world. Our job is to save our democracy, our country, and the world from being destroyed by fascist totalitarianists.

It may sound grandiose, but that is reality.

Whining and sniveling is counterproductive to the important work we have to do. If there is a problem, we need to solve it, not be rendered helpless and defeated by the very thought of it. Everyone already knows things are shitty and what we are up against.

When your kids are sick you don't whine and snivel and do nothing while you watch them waste away and die. You do everything in your power to make your children well again.

Well, America is our collective child. Let's make it well again.

[DerekG]

54. In support of Q

It is not defeatism to point out how formidable and omnipresent the machine is; I myself find it sobering to admit that the twisted dreams of men like Henry Luce and the Dulles brothers have come to fruition. We live in the Empire, and no "Bush is toast" thread will nullify this.

We are in the fight for our lives.

[donkeyotay]

56. I agree with this support of Q

It's not defeatist to acknowledge the depth of the doo doo we're in. I don't think Q said not to fight or to give up. And sometimes it takes time for people to hear what they don't want to hear.

By the way, Q, I do have a plan that I think goes beyond working for change, as I'm sure everyone here has done that work. I think we need to demand fully funded public elections. No more incrementalism on campaign finance reform. Just do it. Make bribery illegal again.

[BeHereNow]

65. "We are in the fight for our lives."

Only the truly naive or seriously deluded
have not comprehended what is upon us.
Only those who fully understand will survive
what the rest of our lives are going to be like.
We have every right to feel hopeless;
it so very much more advanced than most
realize- the plan of the global elite, that is.

BHN

[Ron Green]

55. Let us not be blinded to our dire straits by mindless activism...

and let us not be blinded to hope by our mutual grumbling. It's a Golden Mean thang!



edit for tpyos. :D

[wyldwolf]

62. C'mon. Q ... tell us what YOU do besides this?

"This" meaning wagging your finger, bitching, moaning, complaining, and "warning."

Running for office?
Canvassing neighborhoods?
Volunteering in local democratic party organizations?
Registering people to vote?
Working the polls?
Giving rides to the polls to the elderly and physically challenged?

[Nevernose]

66. Optimism and Cynicism aren't mutually exclusive

I can (and do) have a hopeful, positive attitude regarding the election, and still realize that the Bushies may just steal it, and even win legitimately.

Just because I'm hopeful for our future, and think our chances are fairly good, doesn't mean that I don't realize it all might go to hell in about three minutes (or however long it takes Jeb Bush to file an amicus brief with SCOTUS).

[mike_c]

75. spot on as usual, Q....

The jingoists and the 'bots don't want to hear it, but we are in deep do-do and the sooner Americans realize that, the sooner we will begin demanding leaders-- and candidates-- that are not simply remade corporate puppet flavors-of-the-day.

For the last several months I've been reasonably confident that-- notwithstanding my personal distaste for John Kerry's politics-- Kerry will win the November election handily. Lately I've begun to question whether that was WAY too optimistic an assessment. The Kerry campaign is starting to look disturbingly reminiscent of the Gore 2000 campaign-- a campaign with a message that is utterly defined by the context created by the repubs. In their fear of fighting for real change-- real alternatives to the core Bush policies such as the occupation of Iraq, the phoney war on terrorism, or the creation of a fortress America embroiled in perpetual war-- the Kerry campaign is repeating the fundamental mistakes of the 2000 and 2002 democratic campaigns. "Me too" is not a platform.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. Exactly. The chase for the "moderates" is 2000 redux.

The sad thing is that the DLC types will try to move the party even more to the right to look even more Repuglycan.

[0rganism]

76. When was the last chance for effective action, in your opinion?

I think it was the 1996 election. If only we'd understood the threat the republicans posed, with their media consolidation efforts and their constant attacks on Clinton, maybe we could have done something then to take back the House of Representatives. Certainly by 1998 it was getting very late, and in 2000 no one knew what to do.

But the internet was still young, Democrats were in disarray, the radical element was alienated from the Democratic party by 4 years of Cllinton's policy triangulations, the electorate was anaesthesized by his moderate policies... so many excuses. But I think that was our last chance, if the system is as broken as you imply.

The biggest recent strategic mistake, I think, and I don't want to catalog all of them, was not hounding the people behind Iran-Contra to the point where they lost all credibility. They've been around ever since, playiing the dirty tricks game.

[mike_c]

78. excellent point....

"The biggest recent strategic mistake, I think, and I don't want to catalog all of them, was not hounding the people behind Iran-Contra to the point where they lost all credibility. They've been around ever since, playiing the dirty tricks game."

That viper's nest never stopped accumulating toxins inside the Beltway. Now Negroponte is proconsul to the Iraqi client state? Same as it ever was....

[dollydew]

79. don't give up

Don't give up. Did MLK give up? Did Ghandi give up? Did Malcolm X give up? Did the Native Americans give up? No. We may not win(this time). The battle may rage beyond our lifetimes. But please don't give up. Think of all the black people in America that were enslaved and then lynched (as was one of my uncles) and don't give up. Think of Wounded Knee (my great great grandmother was full-blooded Blackfoot) and don't give up. Think of the Irish immigrants that faced signs "No Irish Need Apply" and don't give up. Think of the Jewish people who were beaten and murdered just because of who they were (in this country not in Nazi Germany) and don't give up. Think of the Chinese immigrants that helped build this country (the railroads) but were still spit upon and don't give up. Think of all the the people who died so that we (including me) have the comforts and advances we enjoy today. If we give up we're spitting on their graves. MLK knew he wouldn't live to see the freedoms black people have now. He never stopped fighting. Malcolm X had people try to kill him numerous times before his murder but he never stopped fighting. Any non-white person in this country can tell you that there are worse things than a stolen election. Try living with the fact that there are laws protecting you but you're still being slaughtered at will. This administration is a serious setback, I agree. But I'm sure you all know that far worse acts have been condoned in this country even though we have a constitution. Sorry for the long post. I mostly lurk and learn. But to be realistic, people in this country have had far worse happen to them than what Bush has done and survived. We'll survive this too.

[Kanary]

81. A lot of people *WON'T* survive

does that matter?

Kanary

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

80. Internal Emigration...

...that would be my solution to the coming chill....

[TexasSissy]

84. Point well taken.

[Tatiana]

85. I agree that we've contributed to the monster that has been created.

We are doing a piss-poor job of educating the public of voting age about the issues. We need to focus more on education, truly enlightening people about the state of this union. Krugman cannot do this alone.

We are also doing a piss-poor job in fielding candidates who possess truly visionary platforms and programs. Where's the John F. Kennedy or Roosevelt of our generation? He/She's out there, and likely wouldn't stand a chance of getting elected in the current social climate.

Democrats also need to realize that at this point in time, there should be NO compromise. We are the OPPOSITION PARTY, for goodness sake! We are supposed to disagree, and disagreement in itself is not a bad thing. There are such things as absolute truths. 1+1=2. Republicans would have you believe 1+1=3. The typical Dem response of today would be something along the lines of, "The Republicans say that 1+1=3, but I believe 1+1=2." 1+1=2! What we should be saying is "It is a fact that 1+1=2 and anyone who says otherwise is a LIAR."