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What's the difference between our system & the old Feudal system?

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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 08:19 AM
Original message
What's the difference between our system & the old Feudal system?
i remember in 4th grade reading about the feudal system in jolly old england way back when. basically, the king was the king and ruler of all he could see. if you worked for the king, in and around the castle, you were real lucky and you lived well.

and then there were the serfs. or the people, who did not share in the king's splendor or lifestyle. serfs were the king's subjects, with no rights of their own, other than to toil, pay taxes and just barely stay alive. it was a good system, if you were the king, but if you were a mere serf, well that was just too bad.

and then jolly old england eventually attempted to give up this monarchical system of kings and serfs and began to develop the idea of democracy, and dropping the whole 'royal' thing from government.

now here we are in our contemporary society using basically the same feudal blueprint. we have a white house, a castle by any standard, and it's currently occupied by one of those royal republicans we've grown to hate, like reagan, bush, and bush the second. they live in baronial splendor, ride around in jets and limos, eat only the finest foods with servants at every step. hob nobbing with ambassadors, princes and kings and sipping fine wine. while we out here gladly bust our asses and have a beer.

and the whole economic system we've evolved is based on slaves doing all the hard work. where have we heard that before? the shoes we wear, the televisions we stare at, were made by slaves in poor countries. 13 cents an hour is the going rate for a slave in some nations. mexican crop workers are allowed in to our nation to do the hard work of bringing in the tomatoes and strawberries, then they are thrown out when they are done slaving for pennies a day, with no benefits, and no welcome to america.

what's the big difference between kings living in a castle growing fat and making wars of profit and never working a day in their privileged lives, and dick cheney and george h. w. bush and george w. bush? what's the diff between us and serfs of old?

like in the silent film 'metropolis', the lucky and wealthy and well connected live in lofty penthouses, in luxury and splendor, not even realizing that below the surface are the slaves, toiling, and sweating and making the giant machinery work, living lives of drudgery and servitude, with no hope of reward or future.

what kinda screwed up system is that?
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Nimrod Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. The difference
Is kings didn't make any pretense that the serfs existed to serve. * isn't a king quite yet, so he still has to lie.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's America. 'Land of the free, home of the brave.' We're a hypocracy...
And the biggest hypocracy ever devised.

America has ALWAYS supported slavery. Either directly (pre-1865) or up to now (paying wages that people can't even begin to live on and mistreat its workers using fear and oppression.)

'Hypocracy': A hypocracy is a nation that is hypocritical toward its own charters and mandates. *'s hypocracy is the most vulgar. Ever.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Don't forger the "nobles"
When I was in the corporate world I noticed daily how similar our system is to medieval ways, we simply apply different titles. Each level of management like a fiefdom. The likes of CEOs would be the equivalent of Dukes or Earls and then lesser titles on down the food chain.

I have noted it in local politics. People are so determined to keep a tight grasp on what power they hold, they prefer not to grow their party.

The human race has not evolved much since medieval times therefore our social structure is much the same, we just apply different titles.

Julie
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't think you're being fair to feudalism
In exchange for the obligations due im from his vassals, the feudal lord owed them protection. Today's overlords demand everything for themselves, the serfs be damned!
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tooncesj0nes Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. another perspective-
...I hate the neo-cons as much as anyone here..but after going to Peru in the spring, I know that we at least have an opportunity for mobilty that rarely exists in most countties and certainly didnt exist in feudal times.....furthermore some of the gang bangers would have been tossed to the dogs or intered alive inside a wall (thats what the fate for n-er do wells at Bunratty in Ireland).....I think many of us in America would like a model more lke what exists in Canada or Europe..we tried our hand at it w public housing welfare. I think the subsequent abuse of that system has fueled the current movement against the poor. Like it or not, we do have those who abuse the system to the max..and have no interest in being a part of moving the society or themselves forward - this is true of those at the top as well as those at the bottom...
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dpibel Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Hey! At least we're better than Peru!!
That's your best neocon-hater shot? The US is better than Peru?

Maybe you should do some comparisons between the US and other western, industrialized countries. See how the US stacks up in terms of literacy, health, life expectancy, infant mortality. Stuff like that. You could be surprised.

As for your belief in the great upward mobility offered by the American system, do a little research. The overwhelming majority of Americans end their lives within one quintile of where they started, and the movement is as frequently down as it is up. Hypothetical opportunity is a wonderful thing. Real opportunity is another, and it's increasingly lacking in the USofA.

I'd be interested to know just what abuse of "public housing welfare" it was that engendered the "current movement against the poor." Would that be the billion welfare queens identified by Ronald Reagan? Or would it be some other fiction you have in mind? And how does the current movement against the poor differ from the historical movement against the poor?

Odd that, according to you, the USofA made a valiant effort to emulate Canada and Europe and failed miserably. Different quality of poor here? Different quality of rich? Or just a land of miserable fuckups?

Whaddaya think?
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tooncesj0nes Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Dpibel...the thread was 'how are we different from the feudal system
....and since it was a thread about how we are (or arent) any better than feudal times..perhaps you would enlighten us with more of your brilliant observations about how wonderful things were in that (feudal) era?...Cabrini Green in chicago. ever heard of it? how many multi level high rise have been leveled to the ground?-People didnt need 'Reagan and welfare queens' to see what a failure that model was. ive been a landlord for 20 years. I know what habits fuel those who will never get a leg up in this society. ..as far as 'hypothetical' mobility'- there are plenty of people who still come to this country with a work ethic, barely able to speak the language and do much better than they would ever have done in their home country. Perhaps it bothers you that the n'er do wells fail to perform in spite of the fact that others with with less orientation to our culture do in fact succeed?
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GreatCaesarsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. they think they're safe inside their gated communities
but fail to realize how vulnerable they are to a siege. it all depends on who controls the gate.
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is the Land of the Pharaohs.
Never since the building of the Pyramids has there been a wealth distribution as skewed as this. This is a system where work is totally undervalued. It is actually despised. Even in "feudalism" there was a certain sense of loyalty, and there were rules, traditions, and customs that had to be observed. Now they powerful just make up the rules as they go along.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. We have some freedom, some mobility
Yes, poor children are more likely to be poor as adults, more likely to drop out of high school, more likely to end up in prision, and less likely to end up in college. It is still is not rare though for poor children to go to college and have the type of lifestyle that upper middle class children take for granted. While it might be hard for outsiders to enter "nobility", being ultra wealthy, there is nothing lacking about a middle/upper middle class lifestyle, especially if they don't buy too heavily into consumerism. I am not saying that this is easy and may in fact becoming harder, but it is far from impossible for individuals and families dedicated to this goal.
In Feudalism, a serf child born could not hope to be anything other than a serf or in many cases, even leave their land.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-04-04 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. More late Roman Empire and early Dark Ages than the Middle Ages.
By the time of the Middle ages Europe had evolved the medieval Feudal System, but the system was based more on the Germanic Concept of leaders and his followers than the Roman Concept of Landowner and his workers/Slaves.

From the late Roman Republic to the Dark Ages the condition of the poor in the Roman Empire was terrible (And I mean the poor NOT the Slaves who were treated even worse). A poor person had no right to property, no education, and if he lived on the property of another (and most tended to do so in Rural Areas where 90% of the population lived) the poor person was subject to the whim of the property owner. From the Time of Caesar (Death 44 BC) to the Time of Constantine (c312 AD) the condition of the poor Roman Citizen had become one of complete toil. The raise of Christianity can be traced to its belief system in a better life in the next world if you suffered in this one (and its system of taking care of other people, a system reserved under the Empire to the Emperor, the Empire Charity System worked if the Emperor wanted it to work, it did not if he had other priorities, thus Christian Charity was much less but more reliable).

The Condition of the poor of Rome can be seen in some of the records that have survived. For example you had to be at least 5'6" to join the Roman army in the time of Caesar by the time of Fall of the Empire it had dropped to 5'2". This reflected the general drop in height of the Roman Poor.

For your information, people's height, reflects not only their genes BUT the how much food their mother and grandmother ate. This can be seen in the general increase in the height of the average Japanese since WWII. With improved food after WWII Japanese Students height increase not only through the 1960s (First Generation of Good Food) but into the 1980s (Second Generations of Good Food). Presently it is believed almost all ovums of a woman develop while she is in her mother's womb. This explains the two generation increase in height. If your mother has access to adequate food than you will be taller than someone whose mother did not (The access to food reflects in your early development and thus height). If your maternal Grandmother had access to adequate food than the ovums developed in her daughter's body is imprinted with increase height tendency. This probably evolved to compensate for temporary famines and feasts so that people's height (and thus height and thus how much calorie intake their need to survive) tended to reflect LONG TERM access to food as opposed to any temporary famines or feast.

I went into the details of height and access to food to show that the Roman Poor was in decline even BEFORE the fall of the Empire (Even Caesar Commented that his Roman Soldiers where already substantially smaller than the Germans and Gauls he was facing). This lack of access to food was a product of the bad economic system of both the Roman Republic and the Empire.

Another way to look at the problem of the Late Roman Empire is that when the Goths invaded Italy in 405 AD their army actually GREW as Italian peasants joined their Column giving up their Roman Rights and becoming "Goths" (Who where Christians like the Romans). Religion was NOT a factor in the Roman Peasants joining the Goths and the other barbarian invaders of Western Europe. In fact up to and including the Battle of Chalon (451 AD, when Attila the Hun was defeated in France by a Roman/Germanic Army) Christian Romans and Germans rarely Joined non-Christian Germans. In Chalon Attila the Hun had all of the pagan Germans as his allies, while the Romans had all of the Christian Germans as their allies. In fact the Roman Peasants in what in today called the Brittany Province of France joined the Romans in the battle of Chalon even through their where in open Revolt against Rome. The Roman Peasants were in Revolt against the Roman Landowners NOT the Empire or Christianity.

Now this brings up the reason for the fall of the Roman Empire. Rome needed troops, it had survived since the Third Punic War with a Mercenary Army, but Roman Finance could no longer pay for the Army (and the Mercenary Army was only successful when it was kept small and that was only possible when Roman had no real enemies, a situation that existed from the Defeat of Carthage, Egypt, Macedonia, and the Securid Empire around 100 BC till the advent of the Sassaid Persian Empire and the raise of the Goths about 200 AD).

After the appearance of Real enemies on the Roman Frontier Rome had three Choices, first arm its peasants, but if you arm the peasants you have to give them rights, something the Roman leadership did not want to do. Second Increase the Size of the Mercenary Army (Which Rome Did from 200 AD till 300 AD) the problem with this is how to pay for this large mercenary army? Taxes went through the Roof mostly on the poor. This was the preferred choice of the Roman Elite for their kept all of their power as long as their kept the Army paid. The problem was the taxes were so brutal that it increased the decline in the average poor Roman AND those poor Romans NOT in the Army tended to revolt at the high taxes (Which lead to increase use of the Army in suppressing peasant Revolts). Constantine's acceptance of Christianity while real from all accounts, was also supported by his ability to steal all of the Gold and Silver from the Pagan Temples and used them to pay his troops. Previous Emperors had tried to loot the Persians to pay for their troops but except for Severus all failed (as would Julian after Constantine). By the time of Constantine the Persians were to strong to be defeated by Rome thus the Wars with Persia after about 250 BC were all money losses for Rome.

This was the Situation when Julian Became Emperor, he apparently wanted to return Rome to Paganism, but needed the Gold and Silver to do so, so he invaded Persia to steal Gold and Silver. The Persians defeated his invasion (not in open battle but a series of battles that forced Julian to admit he had to retreat and as he started his retreat he was killed in battle). With Julian's Death and defeat of his Invasion Rome was Broke. Taxes could NOT replace what had been lost by Julian.

Thus Rome turned to the Third Option it had, hire Germanic Barbarians but not with the payment of gold or Silver but with payment of land. Thus Rome started to invite in the German to put down various Peasant Revolts. Settling the German "Invaders" in provinces where the peasants were or had recently in revolt. In fact except for the Vandals, ALL OF THE GERMAN INVADERS OF THE 400s WERE DEFEATED BY ROME AND THAN SETTLED (and even the Vandals had been invited in by first the Roman Elite of Spain and than the Roman Elite of what is today's Tunisia). Thus the Germanic Invaders did not invade the Empire their were invited in by the Roman Elite to replace the Roman Mercenary Army that Rome Could no longer pay for. This was preferred over arming their own peasants.

Now after a few generation the Germans and the Romans tended to merge, but not as the Roman Elite liked. The Germanic invaders had more in common with the Roman Peasants than the Roman Elite and after about two generation the Germanic Invaders started land reform to give land not only to themselves but to the Roman Peasants (And to implement the tradition German method of Communal Land ownership with the "Chief" owning the land, but his "men" having rights to use various parts of the land). This land reform was opposed by the Western Roman Elite who Complained to the Emperor (who by this time period 500 AD sat in Constantinople not Rome). The Western Roman Elites still owned most of the land in Western Europe and when the Germans started to redistributed them to the poor the Elites demanded that the Emperor Justinian defend their Rights as Romans.

Thus the early attempts at land reform lead to the Invasion of Italy, Tunisia and Spain by Armies of the Eastern Empire in the first half of the sixth Century i.e. 500-530 AD). Most of the Western Roman Peasants backed the Germans during these invasion, The Eastern Empire won, but lost Italy again in 570 AD (When the Lombards not only invaded but re-distributed the land to the peasants).

The Franks in Gaul had adopted a similar policy, but it was not as extensive as the distribution in Northern Italy of the Lombards but enough to make the Franks the most powerful country in Western Europe. Now both the Lombards and the Franks were of Germanic background so each retained a MILITARY attitude to ownership of large estates. This attitude was one of mutual rights and duties, i.e. the "Owner" of the property had DUTIES he had to perform for his "serfs" while the "Serfs" had duties their owned to their "Master". At the same time BOTH the "Master" and the "Serf" had rights not only to the land but from each other. This system started to replaced the older Roman system of the "owner" having complete rights over the land and the peasants on the land. In Lombardy this seems to occur quickly after the Lombard invasion, in France a bit later. Elements of the older Roman System survived till about 900 AD.

In the period from 850 AD till 950 AD Western Europe went through one of the greatest changes in World History. Charlemagne's empire had fallen, the Northmen were raiding Northern and Western Europe, the Muslims were raiding Italy and Southern France (and had taken Spain). Something had to be done and the Emperor Otto I did it, he expanded the German Feudal System throughout his Empire (Both Germany and Northern Italy). If an "owner" of land did not stay to defend his land and his peasants he lost his rights and was replaced by someone who would defend his peasants. This was the heart of Feudalism, that the leadership only were the leaders and owners of the land to permit them to DEFEND THE REST OF SOCIETY. Now to defend the rest of Society included arming the peasants. This increased the ability of a "Baron or "Count" to defend his "County" against foreign raids but also against the power of the King to Remove him. By 1000 AD barbarian Invasions went a thing of the past, the new ruling elite of Western Europe had defeated them, not in a pitch Battle but in arming and organizing their peasants into a decent defensive system. From 1000 AD Western Europe was no longer the object of invasion (it was to strong) but an area where invasion came from (The Crusades).

The key was the mutual understanding of the local Barons and Counts with their Knights and peasants. It was the Duty of the Baron and Counts to defend organize and lead their Peasants. In exchange the peasants had to follow the lead of their Count or Baron ("Count" being the Latin term "Baron" the German Term for the same County Official). Everyone owned a duty to someone and in exchanged were owned duties by that person.

This started to break up in the 1300 with the raise of the Middle Class (And I mean the "Upper Middle Class" as that term in used in Modern American Usage, not the American Term "Middle Class" which includes everyone from people on welfare to Billionaires and thus is a meaningless term). With the success of Feudalism the Middle Class could exist but as the power of the Middle Class expanded it ran into the various mutual obligations of Feudalism. These Middle Class Merchants wanted things determined by "Contract" not "Status" but this took centuries to replace the older system.

The Raising Middle Class wanted things to be flexible not fixed obligation that one had to do whether you received any benefit out of it or not. For example under Feudalism all employment and housing was for one year periods. The Middle class did not want to pay an employee for a whole year for work done just for 2-3 months (or even 9-10 months of the year). The Middle Class did not want to provide housing for its employees, another obligation of a "Master" under Feudalism. The Middle Class grew to hate these "Costs" of doing business and our present "hatred" of things Feudal is more a reflection of the raise of the Middle Class and the Middle Class desire for more "flexibility" than permitted under Feudal rules. Thus the change from the above rules to employment at will, housing for one month period, and one's obligations to one's employee is to pay him want ever was contracted for.

If the above sounds like a desire to return to the harsh rules of Pre-Christian Rome you are right, many of our Social and Financial Elite would like to return to that period NOT the Middle Ages. Thus my point here is Bush and Company do NOT want a return to Feudalism, for under Feudalism the poor had rights AND THE RULING ELITE HAD DUTIES TO PROTECT THE POOR. No, what Bush and Company want is a return to the pre-Christian Roman Empire, where the ruling elite had all of the Money, Land and Power, something that Feudalism rejected as unworkable.

The system worked for Rome while it kept its Army small and profitable (The Roman Army was into the Slave trade from 100 BC till 200 AD and was its main source of revenue during that time period). Once the army had to be increased to face a REAL threat, Rome rejected the concept of a Nation in Arms for to go to the Concept of a Nation in Arms you MUST give your poor something to fight for (For example Napoleon had distributed land to his ex-soldiers, land taken from large land owners opposing the French Revolution, these peasants had something to fight for, their new farms).

Like Bush and Company the Roman Elite did NOT want to give their poor rights and thus preferred to Bankrupt themselves and than turn themselves over to Barbarians rather than give rights to their poor. Bush and Company are doing the same, shipping jobs overseas rather than strengthen the US and the working Class of the US. All to increase the Power and wealth of the Elite even as the Country goes down hill overall.

The comparison with the late Roman Empire is Frightening, I would PREFER A RETURN TO FEUDALISM TO A RETURN TO THE PRE-CHRISTIAN ROMAN EMPIRE for under Feudalism I would have RIGHTS, something no member of Roman Society had except if you were a member of the Social Elite of the Empire.
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