Here are 2 pics of Killian's signature

[shraby]

Tell me...are they different? Did the White House forge the earlier one?

This is from earlier documents the White House released:

<>

This one is from the CBS documents from last night:

<http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardmay4.pdf>

[spinbaby]

1. Not that different

What's the significance if they did forge the signature?

[shraby]

4. They didn't want us to know

what was in these latest documents, but they weren't as concerned as much about the earlier ones. I'll check for more examples in the earlier releases.

[Fovea]

2. These do not look like the same signature

The slope, the K, the initial, the J, all look different.

[notadmblnd]

3. I think there is quite a difference..

the "J" in Jerry is totally different as is the "K" in Killan.

[shraby]

8. Here is another example of Killian

<http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/4-Cover_illegible.pdf>

and another

<http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/10-1_2000_Personnel_File.pdf>

[rfranklin]

5. They were probably happy to be rid of Bush...

Since there was constant political pressure to cover up his screw-ups.

[leftchick]

6. oops! terry moran on ABC just asked where they came from....

and even used the word "forged"! :wow:

[shraby]

9. The White House released

last night the same documents that CBS had on their show.

I'd sure like to find a copy of the ones the White House released last night.

[No Mandate Here.]

7. In the linked PDF,

the street address is quite legible.

If walls could talk...

[punpirate]

10. Good catch....

In the "recommend approval" document, the K in Killian has a downward, clockwise arc on the upper right-hand stroke. In the memorandum to appear for physical, the K in the signature has an upward, counter-clockwise arc.

That would be something that would not be a variant in signature. Ballooning or truncating of the same stroke would be a normal variation, but a reverse stroke would not.

Very, very interesting.

[shraby]

11. Since the WH had the same memoranda

that CBS has, the CBS ones are not forged. Possibly the earlier ones are.

Kick this!!! :kick: :kick: :kick:

[punpirate]

12. Could have come from the same source...

... the original file, but that doesn't mean they weren't tampered with many years ago, possibly at the time that the honorable discharge was issued.

The guy that knows is probably Rufus Martin, the personnel officer of Bush's squadron at Ellington.

At any rate, more examples of the signature from other files not related to Bush might answer the question.

Cheers.

[shraby]

13. I put some more examples

in post 8

[RivetJoint]

14. I keep getting "requested document not found"

[shraby]

15. I just checked them and

they come up all right for me. They are pdf files in post 8

[punpirate]

16. I'd love to see one of this guy's cancelled checks....

... because there are several variants in these documents.

Could it have been that a number of people were signing his signature on official documents? I'm going back to the other post to see if there's anything in the memos for file that indicate differences.

Cheers.

[shraby]

17. They definitely don't match the

CBS document with a whole signature. I sure would like to see the ones the WH just released.

[punpirate]

18. This is another private memo in the CBS batch...

... and the signature is close to the original "appear for physical" memo to Bush himself:

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf

Note that there's a slight curve upwards and counter-clockwise, as in the non-commital reminder of physical dated 4 May, 1972.

I think that's the key to determining the original, verifiable signature--what's the signature look like in the memos that are for Killian's files or have no official significance, as opposed to the signatures on official forms, such as the discharge papers or his earlier evaluations.

Killian would have had more control over the stuff going into his own files than he would have over routine paperwork.

Cheers.

[punpirate]

19. CBS did well to look at the files of others in command,

rather than just at Bush's file.

Now, maybe, it would be wise for someone at AP to do an FOIA of the files of Staudt, Hodges, Rose and all the others mentioned in other docs, for documents which mention Bush.

But, truly, I really want to know if the TX ANG had to get another plane or fix an existing plane after April 1972.

[gasperc]

20. WTF they are completely different

how can anyone say they are not that different the J,K the slopes everything about the fucking signature. The two documents were signed by different people

[punpirate]

21. Did Killian even know about Bush's discharge order?

Killian's signature on private file documents is different than those on official documents, and different than the "recommend approval" on the application for discharge document at the top of this thread.

Now, does Killian's signature show up anywhere on Bush's "honorable" discharge certificate? No. The only signature on that form is that of Rufus T. Martin, the same guy that advised Bush to try the 9921st in Alabama (Denver nixed this reassignment because it wasn't suitable for an active reserve flyer).

Where is Rufus Martin these days, and why did he help Bush?