How soon til someone uses an automatic weapon to blow out an office?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

and I'll bet it will have been purchased legally within two weeks of the event!

[Heyo]

1. You could always purchase...

... an assault weapon.. the band didn't do anything anyway.

The chances now are just as high or low as they were a week or 5 years ago.

Heyo

[DerBeppo]

2. what are the chances

of someone bayoneting an office full of people?

that's all that's affected by the awb expiring.

[Vickers]

3. Yes, all their problems started on 13 September

:eyes:

Think of all the bad shit over the last 10 years that wasn't prevented by the AWB.

[billbuckhead]

4. I'd bet a lot of money a gunwacko will try out their new toy this week

America home of the highest murder rate of all advanced nations.

[Vickers]

7. How much money? I'd be willing to go as high as $1000

PM me and we can get the particulars sorted out, but basically:

- has to be a previously-banned weapon that was bought after the ban expired

- has to kill multiple people in a public place

- it can't be you doing the shooting (that wouldn't be fair!)

[billbuckhead]

11. Here's omeone who jumped the gun a little bit

Rampage leaves community stunned
09/09/2004
Advertisement
Sleepy Downtown Geneva was just awakening from its early morning solitude Tuesday morning when suddenly it was snapped out of its tranquility by the rat-a-tat bursts of a high-powered assault rifle.
About 50 rounds were fired before quiet returned - and the gunman lay dead of a self-inflicted wound.
The Madison man, suspecting his girlfriend was carrying on an affair with his best friend, stalked his friend in the early morning hours shortly before 8 a.m.
---------------------------------snip-------------------------
<http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12884332&BRD=1698&PAG=461&dept_id=21846&rfi=6>

[Vickers]

20. .223 rifles weren't affected by the AWB

So....ready to bet?

[NickB79]

44. .223 caliber rifles WERE affected by the ban

Many AR-15, Daewoo, and AK variants chambered in .223 Rem/5.56mm NATO were affected by the AWB. The manufacturers simply removed the illegal parts and sold them as post-ban rifles. The ones that were pre-ban and had the parts before 1994 commanded an impressive premium until today.

[Vickers]

46. Yeah, I worded that wrong..how about this: could you buy a semi-auto .223

last Friday? Yes you could.

Yes, there were many .223s that were configured in a way that they were affected by the AWB. The changes that the AWB had on .223s did not prevent it from being used as a weapon to kill a lot of folks in a short period of time.

[NC_Nurse]

5. Nov. 3rd

when someone's candidate doesn't win and they flip out.

You'd think so anyway, with how high emotions are on both sides.

[bowens43]

6. You still won't be able to buy automatic weapons.

[St. Jarvitude]

56. Doesn't mean you can't modify them.

http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/autowerks.html

By the way, AK-47.net is a scary site in general. I think even gun-rights advocates such as myself would find it horrifying.

[BrotherBuzz]

8. A Post Office is an office, no?

[Q3JR4]

9. You mean it hasn't already happened yet? n/t

[Retrograde]

40. San Francisco, July 1 1993

see http://feinstein.senate.gov/04Releases/r-awban-boxer0629.htm among others

also Stockton, CA, 1989 (ok, that was a schoolyard and not an office)

[Redneck Socialist]

10. Well since fully automatic weapons are still highly regulated

it'll probably be a while. AWB only dealt with semi-autos.

[VOX]

21. Semi-autos are ***very** easy to convert to full auto...

With a minimum of tools, and a bit of knowhow, which is where the World Wide Web comes in...

For example, I just googled "converting semi automatic," and immediately located some highly illegal and very detailed instructions on converting an AK47 to full auto. I will not link it here, but it's remarkably simple.

IMO, there are no positive or logical reasons to have these weapons available in the marketplace. They are designed for a highly specific purpose, and it isn't squirrel-hunting.

[EDT]

24. It's not easy to convert- and has been a serious crime to do so for years

[VOX]

34. It's a serious crime to use these on humans--see L.A., 3/28/97

http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/28/shootout.update/

Botched L.A bank heist turns into bloody shootout
February 28, 1997

LOS ANGELES (CNN) -- A blaze of automatic gunfire ripped through a crowded neighborhood after several heavily-armed gunmen dressed like commandos botched a bank robbery.

Two suspects were killed, and 15 people were injured, including 10 policemen.
<snip>
- - - - - - -
From the Web, googling "semi auto conversion":

"Much easier to buy the semi auto at a gun store and then convert it as per your instructions, except you also want to file the firing pin to a fine point."

[NickB79]

43. You have no idea what you speak of

The federal standard is that, if a gun can be converted to full-automatic in under 8 HOURS in a machine shop, it must be classified as a machinegun, regardless of whether or not it comes from the factory as a full-auto weapon. Weapons makers were forced to redesign their firearms to comply with this law. This law was put into place in the early 1980's, almost 20 yrs ago, and the incidents were fully-automatic weapons have been used in crimes since then can be counted on your fingers. Furthermore, cheap semi-auto Chinese AK knockoffs that were imported and so poorly manufactured that they could accidentally go full-auto were banned from import many years ago as well. The books and instructions you find online were written before the law went into effect. If you attempted to use those books to convert a new gun, you would quickly find you could not do so using their instructions.

The only way you can convert a new AK clone into full auto is to file the sear in the trigger group down, or jam the firing pin forward. What this sets up is a condition known as slam-firing, which is very dangerous for both the shooter and the gun itself. Basically, the gun will fire full-auto when the trigger is pulled, but won't stop until the magazine is empty, even when you take your finger off the trigger! The substantial recoil of 30 rds of ammo fired in under 5 seconds makes aimed fire almost impossible, and could blow up the gun and injure/kill the shooter. You would be much more lethal with a semi-automatic AK and aimed shots than having to reload a new mag every 10 seconds but not hitting anything you aim for. A very dumb move even for a criminal.

[hansolsen]

48. So what about the 100 million or so perfectly legal seni automatic hunting

rifles and shotguns in private hands that every bit as "powerful and deadly" as so called "assault weapons"??

Every one of those hunting riffles and shotguns can be equiped with a high capacity clip, and they are just as easy to convert to fully aoutomatic as the guns banned und AWB.

AWB is costing us millions of votes. An it has costing lives.

[markomalley]

12. All guns must be banned NOW!

Only the State needs firearms. Only the state should be allowed to use lethal force. Anybody possessing a firearm should be immediately jailed. Period.

The longer we allow any type of firearm to be possessed by citizens, the longer we will see dead children in the street. Look at what is happening in DC! Even though they have the best gun control laws in the country, children are murdered on, it seems like, a daily basis. Why? Because they can import those guns from Virginia and Maryland.

So the only way around this is to ban them everywhere.

Those of you wingnuts who have cited the second amendment forget that the second amendment explicitly talks about arming the militia. Not citizens.

Guns need to go. Now. This isn't the wild west anymore.

[skidsareforkids]

13. great idea

When we outlaw guns could we also outlaw Motor Vehicles and Alcohol look at the number of people that are murdered with this combination daily. In fact I don't know anybody that has been killed by a gun nor the family member of anyone that has but I do know people who have been murdered by drunk drivers and I have a friend that was orphaned when a drunk killed her mother. BAN CARS NOW! How many more innocent lives must be lost?

[markomalley]

14. If we had a decent mass transit system

Then we could seriously look at that. Imagine free transport being provided to people! It has worked in Europe for years...people, even those who don't live in cities, can live their entire lives without the need for a private car because of their superior transit system.

I imagine that a few commercial vehicles would still be needed for transporting cargo and, of course, the state would need emergency vehicles, such as ambulances and fire trucks, but otherwise, why not?

As to alcohol...again, why not? Imagine how health care costs would decline if alcohol and tobacco were outlawed! Preventive care is a good idea.

Thanks for your ideas!

[skidsareforkids]

22. I said to...

...ban all motor vehicles buses trains everything we've all heard of children being hit by buses at bus stops. What about kids that play on train tracks those are dangerous too so trains are out also. What are you planning to use fopr mass transit?

[sffreeways]

35. That particular combination

alcohol and motor vehicles is against the law last time I checked. I hope the drunk driving offender you mentioned was prosecuted under those laws.

"I don't know anybody that has been killed by a gun"

Now you do. My son David 21 shot and killed May 4, 2003 while watching a movie and eating pizza at a friends home at 2:30 in the afternoon just before mothers day. No drugs or alcohol involved. In a jealous rage over an x girlfriends phone call his killer took his legally registered 9mm from him and placed it against his head and pulled the trigger. He died 30 minutes later.

Guns kill thousands of innocents just like David every year.

[hansolsen]

54. Maybe 90% of gun related deaths are from hand guns, not AW. N/T

[BiggJawn]

18. Sarah Brady! I had no IDEA you were a DU'er!

"Look at what is happening in DC! Even though they have the best gun control laws in the country, children are murdered on, it seems like, a daily basis. Why? Because they can import those guns from Virginia and Maryland."

And if guns are banned in the WHOLE U.S., they'll just smuggle them in from Cnada or Mexico, right?

We have enough gun laws. They just need to be enforced better.

And why does the State need to be able to use lethal force? I'm curious.

If there are no firearms, why does the State need firearms? To go after those who have "illegal" firearms?
Fat lot of fucking good banning them did, eh?

[lastliberalintexas]

31. Now you know calling a fellow DUer a repub

is against the rules! :-)

[BiggJawn]

60. Not all ducks go "AFLACK!"

Some of them go "QUACK"...:evilgrin:

[Renaissance]

19. The militia ARE the citizens.

Perhaps you need to brush up on your history.

[Redneck Socialist]

26. Not too keen on winning elections are you? n/t

[Renaissance]

29. It's the same mentality the Nader voters use.

To some people, being "right" is more important than being in power.

[mitchum]

42. Considering the present administration, do you honestly...

want only the State to have firearms???!!!

Be very careful what you wish for

[hansolsen]

53. You are advocating civil war. N/T

[Jack_DeLeon]

61. nice troll....

:eyes:

[immoderate]

62. Your phrase "explicitly talks about"

sounds like an oxy-moron to me. What the second amendment doesn't do is explicitly state that arms can only be carried in the service of the militia.

You got a few other things wrong. More children drown in bathtubs than get killed with guns.

--IMM

[YellowRubberDuckie]

15. Um, just because a gun is banned doesn't mean it won't be found.

And used. Like the ban has anything to the gun being used or not.
Duckie

[skygazer]

16. Oh, brother

Fully automatic weapons are not legal to own in the United States. The lapse of the so called assault weapon ban will not legalize them. The term "assault weapon" is a misnomer that is used by anti gun activists just like the term "partial birth abortion" is used by the pro lifers - to inflame and misinform the populace.

Sorry, but I am a Democrat who is a gun owner. I see nothing wrong with waiting periods and background checks but I think all this hype about the assault weapon ban is more hysteria than anything else. If a criminal wanted an Uzi or an AK-47, they could get one. Crooks don't use legal weapons and all this ban does is keep law abiding citizens from owning them.

My two cents. Flame away.

[BiggJawn]

25. Oh, but full-auto weapons ARE legal to own....

Just a little difficult to get the proper licensing to do so.

Some states, like North Carolina, do prohibit private ownership of machine guns. But for most, there's a special form, a $200 "transfer tax" and you need fingerprints, leter from your local police chief, etc. and a gun dealer federally licensed to deal in machine guns must handle everything up to the point that you have your license and take your new "toy" home....

I noticed that on North Carolina's FAQ page that they make a distinction between what they call "Real" Assault Rifles and "Cosmetic" Assault Rifles. To NC, a REAL AW is capable of selective fire, either fully-automatic or multi-round bursts. The other kind, the "cosmetic" rifles, are what everyone has their knickers all in a twist over. It's stupid. Does a bayonet lug or a screw thread for a possible silencer or a pistol grip make a 7.62 rifle more deadly? I don't think so.

[Renaissance]

17. The AWB sunset has no effect on automatic weapons.

And as for semi-automatics, the law sure did a great job of preventing Columbine.

[skidsareforkids]

23. Yes...

Automatic weapons were regulated under a ban in 1986. They are still available to purchase for law abiding citizens and were before during and after the AWB.

[gospelized]

50. this logic makes NO sense

so... because the ban didn't prevent columbine, we should get rid of it?

so by the same logic, since bombs being illegal didn't prevent the Oklahoma City bombings, we should make them legal too?

[Pobeka]

27. Terrorists' fantasies come true?

<snip>

Wouldn't it be ironic if the failure of Bush to ask for the ban to be renewed, causes the nation to realize we just became s less safe from terrorists with assault weapons?

On edit: correcting an false assumption.

[Renaissance]

28. The ban had nothing to do with Uzis or silencers.

You should inform yourself about the law before you speak with such feigned authority.

[Pobeka]

30. Apparently I heard wrong then.

I said "uzzi's or whatever" because I knew there were some limitations.

I said silencers because I heard silencers were one of the attributes under control of the ban.

[Renaissance]

32. Nope.

The ban only referred to threaded barrels. Silencers are still very heavily regulated.

And the ban was only on semi-automatic weapons, which fire one shot per trigger pull. Fully-automatic weapons were not affected by the ban at all.

[Pobeka]

33. Thanks, I corrected my post back upstream.

[Renaissance]

36. Thank you for the civility.

Really, it is hard to find in this very polarized debate.

"I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

More people should take this to heart, friend.

[slackmaster]

37. Automatic weapons have been regulated since 1934

Expiration of the federal assault weapons ban did not affect the availablity of automatic weapons.

Please see http://www.atf.gov

[VOX]

39. Then why is the NRA jumping for joy **today**?

You'd think that if the AWB were some silly, extraneous law, the NRA wouldn't give a hoot. But they're saying today, "This battle has been won."

And if the gun lobby is defining this issue as a battle, I'd prefer that they remain on the losing end.

http://www.nra.org/Article.aspx?id=886
FINALLY, THE END OF A SAD ERA -- CLINTON GUN BAN STRICKEN FROM BOOKS!
Today, the Clinton gun ban expired. The ban's enactment in 1994 was political chest-thumping and deceit at its worst. Now that the ban is over, as was the case for decades prior to and during the life of the ban, criminals still will not legally be able to possess these firearms. Law-abiding citizens, however, will once again be free to purchase semi-automatic firearms, regardless of their cosmetic features, for target shooting, shooting competitions, hunting, collecting, and most importantly, self-defense.
<snip>
Make no mistake, our fight to protect and preserve the Second Amendment is far from over. At every opportunity, the Schumers, Clintons, Feinsteins, and Kerrys of the world will diligently work, this year and beyond, to pass another, more restrictive gun ban. We can also promise you that dozens of state legislatures will pick up the gun ban mantle and try and pass state level gun bans as well. We must remain vigilant on this front. This battle has been won, but it is only a temporary victory. The war will rage on!

[slackmaster]

41. Try looking at it this way

The reason we pro-RKBA folks (I am not the NRA BTW) are celebrating today is we have scored a very small victory.

We are overjoyed because this tiny bit of liberty restored seems like a big deal to us in the context of having getting our asses kicked for decades by well-meaning but misguided gun control enthusiasts.

Let us have our party. We know the fight will continue forever.

[Cleita]

38. I'm thinking of buying one myself and about time too.

I have to protect myself from all those scary gophers and moles on my property.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

47. Gophers and moles?

If by that you mean the occupants of the white house, I'm right there with you.

Advice: leave the country or take them up on that Tek-9 if these burrowing creatures win again...

[Cleita]

52. Just a little sarcasm here. I was talking about the rodent

variety. I would not threaten the residents of the White House with violence, only impeachment or other legal means of removing them.

Welcome to DU.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

57. I wouldn't attack anyone

But what about when they show up at your door for posting here?

[Cleita]

59. Well, they haven't.

I've had more angry Pugs yell at me in person for canvassing for the Democrats than for being a member of DU. Don't know why the idiots can't understand how a democracy works. If the RW Bushistas don't allow for open debate and differences of opinion then I guess they will deserve the loss of their rights and freedom that results, but I don't, so I will not allow anyone to bully me that way.

[NickB79]

45. Why now?

Fully automatic weapons have been heavily regulated, but legal to own with the proper paperwork, since 1934. The AWB only covers semi-automatic weapons, and even then only cosmetic features like a bayonet lug or flash hider. So, unless you rephrase the question to "how soon til someone uses a bayonet-fitted weapon to chop up an office?", the AWB has no effect on an event like what you propose.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stavka]

51. THE AWB has nothing to do with machine guns!!!!!!!

The weapons that are now legal, never were illegal besides a few cosmetic features!!!!!!!

Good god Christ why don't people understand that! You could have bought 300 Ak-47's the day after the "Ban" went into effect...you can buy them again today, but they'll be cheaper.

The AWB allowed gun sellers to make a nice profit off existing stocks of lemons - and make anti-gun folks feel happier I guess...

I live in the Detroit area - we've had nearly a half dozen police officers killed in the line of duty by "Assault Weapons" - guess what, they were all legal....

Clinton said in the wake of the 1992 election that the Democrats lost 20 seats over the AWB - guess what, he was right!

Gun control is an albatross for the Democrats....

[Medium Baby Jesus]

55. You said

"I live in the Detroit area - we've had nearly a half dozen police officers killed in the line of duty by "Assault Weapons" - guess what, they were all legal..."

I think you make a good case for expanding the AWB to cover more weapons. I agree.

[stavka]

58. I'm saying the AWB costs us votes....

Just like Pres. Clinton did so say - The AWB isn't what it appears to be, and it makes people vote for the Republican party because Democrats "Want to take away their guns"

It's stupid - it costs the Dems support from their base for no good reason.