What's The Rationale Behind Not Permitting Felons To Vote?

[arwalden]

I can understand not permitting convicted and incarcerated felons to vote... but once the person has served their time and paid their debt, why should any state continue to punish them by refusing them the right to vote?

What good is served by forcing these people to be second-class citizens? Why isolate them and make them feel even more marginalized?

-- Allen

[Occulus]

1. Because some people don't want

"those people" deciding the course of the nation

Sound familiar?

[nyhuskyfan]

2. Especially since that would mean W couldn't vote for himself...

Being convicted of a felony and all.

[Freddie Stubbs]

30. Zoinks!

What felony has he been convicted of?

[nyhuskyfan]

37. Drunk Driving

He's the first president with a felony conviction.

On edit: I guess he plea baragined down to a misdemeanor in the drunk driving case. I thought I had read at one point that he was the first US President with a felony conviction, but perhaps that was someone referring to the alleged cocaine bust, which is rumored but not proven.

[ck4829]

3. There is no rationale

I don't think it is constitutional, so I don't even know why it is allowed.

[troublemaker]

4. Because they are disproportionately black. n/t

[sniffa]

bingo!

the onLy reason.

do you think reaL 'feLons' are sitting in prison hoping that their 1 vote wiLL somehow heLp their cause? they're just trying to survive in there.

[havocmom]

5. Keepsall those mellow, laid back liberal pot smokers from having a say

in who gets to set policy. Gads, man, if all of them voted, we might never go to war again!

**note to Allen, you make a great straight-man (for setting up my jokes, that is) ;)

[wkirby]

6. It used to have some merit . . .

I think that if you look back in American history when our criminal justice system used to hand out felony convictions for major offenses, it made more sense. But today we hand out felony convictions so often so that we can appear to be tough on crime.

-Will

[troublemaker]

7. I has never made sense

Citizens can vote. Either strip felons of citizenship or let them vote. (Even while incarcerated) There's nothing complex about it... citizens can vote here. It's a defining trait of our civilization.

[ThomCat]

9. I don't know if that was ever really true.

I think this was just an extension of anti-black sentiment. Black people could be arrested on trumped up charges at any time, and therefore denied the vote for life.

[prodigal_green]

8. racism/classism

who gets convicted (I'm not saying commits, just convicted) of felonies most often?

I think if a person has paid his or her debt to society, that person should be fully enfranchised. Telling somebody he or she has no stake in the society into which one has been released really gives them no reason to abide by its laws.

This is a state-by-state issue by the way, not federal law.

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

10. Let's understand what a felony is

It's a crime for which the MAXIMUM possible penalty according to statue exceeds one year in prison. That's not much of a crime. Lots of people are convicted of felonies and get str8 probation and never spend a day behind bars. Should they lose their lose their voitng rights??

What happened is that the 1968 Gun Control Act banned felons from having guns and ever since then, the legislatures have been classifying more and more crimes as felonies. It's an end run around the 2nd amendment and has the side effect of disenfranchising millions of americans too.

[The Revolution]

11. Its unconstitutional

From the 15th amendment:
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude. "

I argue that the only reason these laws exist is to deny the vote to blacks. They don't specifically deny blacks the right to vote, but this is their way of getting around the 15th amendment. But because the intent of these laws is to prevent blacks from voting, they should be abolished.

[sweetheart]

12. volating human rights (racism)

It helped to repress the black vote in the end of the civil war and
since covert racism and apartheid have long american roots, we still
have these laws today.

They are 100% to repress the non-white votes. The law is in direct
opposition to the universal declaration of human rights, that the
US will not ratify... because it would force a total end of state
racism.


Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[PATRICK]

13. Here is the sense

It makes the morally righteous look good by protecting the vote and punishing the criminal. No Democrat(against whom this cynical strategy is aimed) can look good saying felons should vote(and they vote democratic). The race card in the GOP mind is win/win. The blacks they want on their side despise and are ashamed of their felonious brethren even more than the sneering cons.

In essence it is a cold, calculated ploy masked as social discipline. To enter into an argument is to wiggle in the trap. Once a concession is made in any argument with these people, they weave a noose around your neck with it in bad faith, with extreme prejudice.

Or the old bait and switch. we need heartier, smarter leaders not cowed by the twisted appeal to the masses. In principle, while on parole there is strict checking to prevent recidivism with specific terms, there is implied no other revoking of rights and privileges as a citizen, no extra cruel and unusual punishment after RELEASE and expiation. It is not a legal and certainly not a Christian concept. The terms of parole in place of serving out a sentence are determined and harsh enough, but these laws as a lifelong sentence of disenfranchisement should never held up in the Supreme Court as they make a mockery of so many things with disingenuous fabricated rationale from hypocritical indignation and pious fraud.

Might as well lynch that neighborhood jaywalker of ten years ago to protect our streets. Yet instead, the Dems caved weakly and joined in the manipulated mob's loony sucker play to enhance the shrinking GOP electorate's chances in their "Red-eyed" states.

Is there any pol of stature who can be shrewd, can set aside mousey fear, can stand up quickly and smartly for the truth, can resist being a collaborator in both an injustice and the party's own destruction in these dumb dumb ploys? The RWingnuts only do these ham-handed things because they work- not because they are right.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. We need heartier, smarter voters, too. n/t

[ArkDem]

14. They can't own guns either. What's up with that?

[AntiCoup2K4]

15. I think that's a bit of a difference.

I don't see any reason why an ex con shouldn't vote, but allowing someone who has committed violent crimes to own guns is an entirely different matter.

And for the record, I'm no "gun control freak". I don't have any problem with sane, law abiding citizens owning a reasonable number of firearms, if they so choose.

[Hello_Kitty]

16. I agree, but only for those convicted of VIOLENT felonies. n/t

[meow2u3]

35. I say corporate crooks should lose their right to vote

permanently. Corporate felons cause more deaths, more financial ruin, and more damage with one crime than 100 street felons combined.

[BiggJawn]

18. Even after they've "paid their debt"?

Or do we keep punishing them years after the fact? you tell somebody "You were in prison. You have NO Right to own a firearm" or "You have NO Right to vote". So we have selective rights?

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

28. You're equating felonies with "violent crimes"

Lots of white collar crimes are felonies. Income tax evasion is frequently tried as a felony. And look at all the millions of drug felonies. OTOH many misdemeanors are violent. YOu can get mad at someone and punch them out and get off with a misdemeanor.

[noonwitch]

19. I have mixed feelings on the issue

There's a part of me that thinks if you pay taxes, you should get to vote (which, I know, would mean 16 year olds could vote). Yet there are some things that people do that makes you question whether they are sane or smart enough to be ever given that trust, and you wonder what the hell they are even doing walking the streets again.

I'm not so sure I want convicted sex offenders, for example, voting on whether the new porno theater can be zoned for the same area as the elementary school and city park.

[arwalden]

21. Sex Offenders Voting On Porno Theater Zone Laws

If the sex offender voting bloc is THAT strong that they could sway an election... well... things must be pretty bad off.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[Bridget Burke]

22. Welcome to DU

Most serial rapists are locked up for a good long time. If somebody has "paid their debt to society" they ought to be reintegrated into society.

The laws forbidding ex-felons from voting are mostly racist in origin.

Think about it, for a change. Take an iboprofen if you get a headache.

[Name removed]

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[Bridget Burke]

29. Do you favor changing the laws in the majority of states?

Currently, felons permanently lose their right to vote in Alabama, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nevada, New Mexico and Virginia. Even here in Texas, ex-felons automatically regain the right two years after completing their sentence, parole or probation.

Some of these laws were written specifically to target African-Americans, although you will note that not all these states are Southern.

Why did this particular issue inspire you to begin posting here?

[Name removed]

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[sweetheart]

33. Rape, bouncing a cheque 3 times, stealing to eat

I would agree, where felons "all bad". However, our weak system of
laws has labelled many people "felons" who are not guilty of high
crimes, rape and murder. You can become a 3 strikes felon by
bouncing a cheque 3 times.

Sell cannabis to your mate, get busted. Bounce a cheque trying to
make ends meet after getting out, and get busted again selling grass.. voila.. 3 strikes, life in prison, no vote.

On top of that, your argument must address the racial fact of the
overwhelming presence of blacks in prison, for whom this policy is
applied. It is, in effect, apartheid... vote by race... and your
glib coating does not weigh on the real problem, or a solution.

Maybe the laws that define that person a "felon" are criminal in a
deliberate attempt to deny those persons their constitutional rights.
I must credit your argument though, as 100% foolproof endemic racism,
a basis for denial used by racist prison state bush supporters for
decades.

Were a felony a serious crime, maybe, but as it stands today, it
is just a scam to deny voters against the "corporatist dual party
ego-state" their franchise and constitutional rights.

[Name removed]

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[porphyrian]

23. Preventing legal retribution

The prison industry is huge, rich, white and Republican for the most part. It's the triangle trade of the twenty-first century, and they have no intention of giving up any of that money or power.

[jpgray]

24. Well, for starters we have the largest prison population in the world

Think along those lines.

[TexasSissy]

25. I wonder how far back this dates? That would tell more about

why the right to vote is taken from a felon.

Maybe someone should research this?

[K-W]

27. Not everyone supports universal sufferage.

Some people think we would be better off if we were more selective with who we give political power to. There are still plenty of proponants of intelligence tests at the polls. It is partially racist and partially not.

[Xithras]

32. There are two very solid historical reasons for it

First, it wasn't originally implemented as a racist measure, as many of these laws date back to the founding of the country.

Reason 1: In the 1700's and 1800's when towns tended to be very small (no more than a few hundred people) there was a very real danger that criminals could move into a town and take control of it by subverting the democratic process for their own use. Imagine a gang of 100 criminals moving into a town with a population of 250, and then putting the head of their gang on the ballot as a new mayor. This scenario actually happened in some small towns as the West was being settled, and is related to the next reason.

Reason 2: In many municipalities, law enforcement positions ranging from Sheriff to Police Chief to District Attorney are elected. This brings up the fear that convicts will deliberately vote for people perceived as "soft on crime" in order to make their lives easier. Most people would agree that having convicted criminals choose the law enforcers is a bad idea. There's also the added danger that, constitutionally, any person capable of voting is also capable of running for office. Could you imagine a convicted murderer running for your local DA?

So here's the problem: How do you let felons vote in national elections while barring them from local ones? If you want to let them vote in jail, what jurisdiction will they vote in...where they came from, or where the jail is located? How would you prevent concerted efforts by convicts trying to oust law enforcement leaders as an act of revenge?

[Bridget Burke]

38. Most states don't allow convicts to vote.

It's the ban against voting after the convict has returned to society that's the bigger problem.

What's your excuse for that?

[donkeyotay]

36. thanks for the post, arwalden

I don't understand why these laws haven't been overturned. It seems like double jeopardy (and triple, quadruple...) to me. If you're convicted of a crime and serve your time, that's it. You're done. It's bad enough having to go through life with a felony conviction on your record without having people going, "oh, yeah... and you can't vote. And you can't get food stamps, etc."

Or, has Merl Haggard (!) said, "I paid the debt I owed them, but they're still not satisfied..."

[Bridget Burke]

39. Why haven't the laws been overturned?

Let's ask Jeb Bush why not. He'd probably say the laws are still working fine. In Florida, it wasn't just ex-felons who were kept from the polls, but the many misidentified as ex-felons.