Remember the video of the Taliban beating the two Iraqi women

[Catfight]

in barka's on the streets? This was used pre Iraqi hype from Bush to show how bad the Taliban was? Can anyone help me find that video footage or at least photos? Thanks.

[Trajan]

1. Afghani women ...

NOT Iraqi women ....

[yardwork]

2. Right. The Taliban were in Afghanistan

NOT Iraq. There were no Taliban or anything like it in Iraq before we invaded. Saddam was a thug, but he wasn't a fundamentalist religious thug. Women were not forced to wear burkas in Iraq. Women were not forced to cover their faces in Iraq. Women were not beaten on the streets in Iraq. Women were allowed to get educations, hold jobs, and drive cars in Iraq.

Since the United States invaded Iraq, chaos has led to an increase in religious intolerance in Iraq. In parts of the country, Taliban-like intolerance is taking hold.

Things are worse for women in Iraq since we invaded.

[Cravat]

6. How about some Iraqi videos?

You know, the ones where the thugs were tossing people off buildings or breaking limbs with mallets. Or how about some footage of the guys missing ears or hands?

Yeah, Afghanistan sucked on womens rights but it is somewhat better. Iraq had plenty of problems also. Our invasion stopped many of the worst abuses. It was a just war but a suspect occupation.

Sorry, back on topic, I will look around for the Burka Beatdown vids.

[Ms. Clio]

8. That is completely inaccurate

Afghanistan is not "somewhat better at all." As the women who actually live there and have fought against the Taliban should know, The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.

Afghan rights advocate expects death
BBC News, Aug. 9, 2004

An Afghan social worker who publicly demanded that former warlords be taken to court has told the BBC she expects to be killed.

Malalai Joya received a number of death threats after interrupting the loya jirga (grand council) seven months ago with her criticism of the mujahideen.

However she has continued to press her case against the former rulers of Afghanistan - earlier this month she, together with a delegation of 50 tribal elders, persuaded President Hamid Karzai to dismiss a provincial governor who was a former Taleban commander.

"I know that if not today, then probably tomorrow, I will be physically annihilated," Joya told BBC World Service's Outlook programme.

"But the voice of protest will continue, because it is the voice of the people of my country."

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/joya3.htm

War Returns with a Vengeance as Allies Fail the Afghan People
The Independent/UK, May 25, 2004
by Kim Sengupta

"We are disappointed by lack of progress, lack of money, lack of jobs," said Mr Haidar, a Tajik former Northern Alliance soldier. "I remember all these people who came here from Europe and America and told us how they are going to help us. But where are the factories and the offices we thought we would get? What about the elections we were promised?"

President Hamid Karzai was forced to put back to the autumn elections because of the instability. Only 1.6 million out of 10.5 million eligible to vote have registered. In the Pashtun belt, where Taliban influence is still strong, the number of women registered is below 20 per cent.

The emancipation of women, subjugated by the fundamentalist Taliban, was one of the stated objectives of the West. Even before the war ended America's First Lady, Laura Bush, declared: "Because of our recent military gains in much of Afghanistan, women are no longer imprisoned in their homes. The fight against terrorism is also a fight for the rights and dignity of women."

According to an Amnesty International report, however: "Two years after the ending of the Taliban regime, the international community and the Afghan transitional administration, led by President Karzai, have proved unable to protect women. The risk of rape and sexual violence by members of armed factions and former combatants is still high. Forced marriages, particularly of girl children, and violence against women in the family are widespread in many areas."

After the war, dozens of girls' schools reopened throughout the country. But an Islamist resurgence has seen many of them closed down through intimidation. Families who still dare to send their female children for education can pay a terrible price. Earlier this month, three young girls, aged eight to 10, were poisoned in eastern Afghanistan, apparently as punishment for attending lessons.

http://rawa.fancymarketing.net/figures.htm


The invasion of Iraq hasn't stopped "abuses" of women in Iraq because such abuses did not exist. Again, you betray your complete and utter ignorance of Iraq's history and culture.

But then, anyone who calls this a "just war" is really not worth serious consideration. I'd ask you to explain what the hell that means, but you clearly don't have enough information or knowledge to make a credible statement.

[Cravat]

12. Afghanistan has improved.

Are women still killed for "moral" reasons? Yes. But the stadium in Kabul has not held public stonings. Are they still kept inside the home like a prisoner in the villages? Yes, but Kabul has a thriving female university and girls of all ages are learning to read and write. Are women still kept out of politics? Yes, they are still considered to be a dirty joke over there. But Karzai has a female minister who is a ball of fire on equal rights.

When I say improved I really mean that. You cannot take a near-Stone Age civilization and turn it into modern America overnight. America still has a way to go to become truly equal. Afghanistan will take generations. The current society cannot accept the changes needed but the grandchildren will be more flexible.

The jobs are coming to the region. Siemens built a huge plant there last year. The coalition is bringing in lots of cash. Farmers are learning how to farm and crop yields are up. Employment in Kabul is high. Now granted, I can hire a day laborer for 5 dollars US. Is that bad? These men need jobs and they tend to have no real training. Typical practice is to provide at least one meal a day and they are learning western work standards. After a few months, the determined laborer will find himself in a foreman position with a pay raise. These are the men who will be rebuilding the country after we leave.

The article you quote was published in May. Karzai recently announced 9 million registered voters.

Now lets talk about the poppys. One third of Afghanistans GNP is now coming from the drug trade. Something like 80% of Europes heroine is coming from the region. This is keeping the farmers employed and happy. I don't have a problem with the drug trade. If the addicts of the western world want to help the poor then that is great.

The only real problem with the drugs is it concentrates power in the hands of a few warlords. Karzai has been ignoring them for a while but he has begun to take steps. Ishmail Kahn is one of the big guys controling the trade. He has been running his province with out much input from the national gov. Recently, Karzai has "promoted" him to a post in Kabul. This removes him from his power base. Could be a step in the right direction.

Now lets talk about Iraq. I never said women were abused in Iraq. They were but no more than the men. Saddam was very nonsexist in his thuggery. To deny abuse took place in Iraq means you have to ignore mass graves and videos made by Saddams own men.

And yes, I do believe the war to free these people was just. How can anyone stand and watch while people die? Would you cross the street to avoid the rape victim? I would not. Yes, there are many other places that need our help. Africa, N Korea, Palistine, ect. One country at a time.

[Ms. Clio]

13. Okay, I can see you have lots of links to back up your assertions

I have rarely seen so much outright propaganda in one post--fascinating, really, as a case study in denial.

Like I said, not worth serious consideration.

[Cravat]

14. I ASSume since you post here......

That you are current on world affairs. If you watched the speachs of Karzai when he visited the white house this summer you would be aware of some of these things. Can I believe all that he says? No but he does care about his people. He seems to be a good man who is making the best of a bad situation.

The drug issue has been discussed here on DU.

The Kahn issue has been discussed here. Remember the riots of his followers?

I lived and worked inside the palace in Kabul for almost a year. DyneCorps pays well. The links are out there. Some are factually correct but biased. Others are lies. Some are truly the truth. I find that afghansite.com is usually accurate. It is run by afghans for afghans.

The problems in that country boggle the mind. In contrast is Iraq. It is civilized in spite of the unrest. Iraq will probably become a productive Muslim nation in a few years. They have the resources, manpower, location, and greater education. Afghanistan will forever be a backwater. Let us just hope they will be a peaceful backwater. Really, the only truly violent Afghans that I met were just ignorant and uneducated men. It is all they know.

[DrWeird]

16. "Iraq will become a productive Muslim nation in a few years."

Do you see the light at the end of the tunnel?

[Cravat]

17. Yeah, that did sound a little silly...

When I reread what I posted I realized it was a bit off. When I said Iraq was more civilized I meant that their economy is bigger and better. If I want a beer or I want to go to the gym or I want to buy a new car or I want to check my email then Iraq is better. If I want to avoid getting kidnapped then I need to go back to Afghanistan.

Sorry for not elaborating.

[DrWeird]

15. LOL.

C'mon, now. They're not using the soccer stadium for public executions anymore. That's got to count for something!

[Ms. Clio]

18. How could I overlook that triumph of human rights & women's suffrage?

If a former DyneCorps (sic) employee tells me everything is swell in Afghanistan and peace and prosperity are just around the corner, who am I to doubt his word?


(spelling edit, dammit)

[Cravat]

20. Whoops....

That 'e' always bites me in the ass. DynCorps(no e) always reminded me or the Acme Co. in all the roadrunner cartoons. They have their dirty little hands into everything. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pick up a 'Homebuilt H-Bomb Kit' from them. (JOKE)

I am sure you cats have noticed the DCorps in the news for the last year or so. Too much publicity. They were bought out by some innocent sounding computer company. No more DCorps. Just like no more Air America(think Vietnam).

[Ms. Clio]

31. It's DynCorp -- no "s" either

Funny, I've always known the exact spelling of the name of every company that ever signed my paychecks.

[Cravat]

33. Sorry.

Read through my posts and I am sure you will find many misspellings. I should probably run a spellcheck.

I guess the Corps stuck in my head after a few years. I had to actually check and see if it had an 's'.

I only did that one gig for DCorp. The guys are usually great but sometimes the client can be less than professional. Worked directly for State. DCorp just sends the cash. Only saw a DCorp executive once. They don't like warzones.

[gpandas]

19. a just war...

where to begin? international law? not just. threat to u.s. interests? nope, no iraqis in my back yard. terrorists? no connection proven. people free? sure, since there is no penalty for us killing them. conscience? where was great concern when idi amin killed hundreds of thousands? or now, in sudan? or in hutu murders of thousands? (imho that anyone who thinks we invaded iraq to save the people is a fool.) yeah, it was just-just because bush said it was, just because they have large oil reserves, just because repukes want to conquer the world, just because it will enable americans to buy more worthless shit so corps will continue to rule. would you step on someone dying to save the mythical rape victim?

[Cravat]

21. So what is the solution?

Do we invade the Sudan? Which side should we be on? Do we split the country up Yugoslav style? I think africa is a goat fuck of incredible size. The answers are hard. Probably too hard for most Americans. But let oil be discovered and we might try to fix things. Is it wrong to help the oppressed and help America at the same time? I think not.

For a look at African pacification corporate style just check out what the diamond companies are doing. Would you like to have your own private military? As long as you have the cash then you can play Hitler in the central african nations.

The US military took down a destabilizing force in the middle east. In doing so, we created additional destabilizing forces. Are they worse than Saddam? Give it a few years and we will know. For now, I think a large part of the country(Iraq) will say that things are better. Do they want us out? Sure, they are a proud people and they want the invaders to go home. The truth is, we will be there for decades.

Iraq will be our unsinkable carrier in the gulf. Have you seen Camp Bondsteel? We are in Kosovo for the long haul. Our little air base north of Kabul is not quite as permenant but it is starting to look like a long term base. I guess it might be a good place to launch strikes against China from in 50 years. Who knows how the inner ring big heads think? We are building long term camps in Iraq. It will be a standard rotation post just like Korea. If you don't belive this you are fooling yourself. Do you really think the Pentagon will give up such a strategic location? Eventually Iraq will beg us to keep troops in the country(for the money) while the students protest the "PigDog Americans." It will be just like Okie or Korea. Then we will know that the invasion was a success.

Do I have a point? I guess the point is this: Just because we do something to help American interest doesn't mean we aren't helping the oppressed.

[gpandas]

24. i am talking about your statement of "a just war"

let's stick to that for now. respond to my post,please. don't obfuscate by bringing up other issues. why is it a just war? the "inner ring big heads" are a bunch of self-serving war mongers.

[Cravat]

26. Ok, I will try....

We had a small country in a fairly strategic part of the world which was activly destabilizing that part of the world. Money was being sent to suicide morons near Israel. His military was attempting to shoot down aircraft enforcing a UN resolution on a weekly basis. He was starving his people in order to maintain a military presence in the gulf. Without his guns he lost some of his abiltity to bluster. So instead of sucking it up and facing the sanctions, he chose to allow his people to die. He had proven himself to be unpredictable in the past(1991). He had used poison gas on his own people. He had, at one time, wanted to develop The Big One. He tried to have the old GB killed. He allowed some bad guys(pseudo-terrorists) to stay in Iraq. He would randomly kill his own citizens(think hitler or stalin).

There was no end in sight. Saddam and Sons were going to be there for years to come. This guy saw himself as a modern day Salidin.

Getting rid of a bad guy seems just to me.

The timing was right to clean house. I don't think it could have been done at any other time. Public opinion would not allow it to happen. Now our kids won't have to deal with S and Sons in the future.

Iran, Syria, or the Saudis may cause problems for our kids but I bet Iraq is out of the fight for many years. If we can encourage the same attitude towards the military and government that we created in Japan then Iraq will be a success.

[lumpy]

29. "cleaning house" in Iraq has

involved the US military killing and maining thousands of Iraq innocents. Indeed Iraq will "be out of the fight" for many years. They were never really in the "fight". The "fight" the US faces now is the generations it will take to overcome the hate we have fostered with the Iraqi people in our ben-evil-ent destruction to bring 'democracy and 'freedom' to that country. Hitler had such grandiose ideas of bringing his particular brand of peace to the world, if you recall. It didn't work. Social evolution can't be hurried. Meanwhile the social conscience of this country is rotting at the core. Who is going to bail us out?

[Generic Other]

35. "Is it wrong to help the oppressed and help America at the same time?"

I attended a workshop conducted by the "Center for Ethical Leadership" just yesterday.

The question you pose attempts to use "helping the oppressed" as moral justification for helping one's self which is the US government's primary goal. Clearly unethical. My core values do not include attacking countries to help them.

[Bandit]

22. "One country at a time."......Is that you Rove

If you truly believe the US should take over every country that we are told harms some of it's citizens then I feel pity for you. That is called Imperialism. Look it up.

[Cravat]

23. It is just the way things have worked out....

I didn't say we need to INVADE one country at a time. I said HELP.

America is in the fortunate position of being the world's only superpower. This means we have a moral obligation to help the less fortunate. Does this mean we need to degrade our economy until we are on a level with the rest of the world? No. We should do all we can to help the poorer countries but I don't think it is wrong to help them for slightly selfish reasons.

The sad facts are that most nations will never be as successful as we are. Imagine a race with all the countries of the world. America is ahead. The European Union, China, and Japan are a good ways behind us. If we stood still for 100 years Afghanistan and Iraq will never catch us. It just won't happen.

Is it Imperialism to help the needy? I don't think so. I might not even be opposed to a little benevolent Imperialism.

[Kid_A]

25. Benevolent Imperialism is like Communism.

It may sound like a good idea on paper, but it just doesn't work. It's a basic fact of humanity: people don't like to be ruled by other countries. I seem to remember reading someplace that America was ruled by an Empire at one point, and when the uppity colonists decided to put an end to it there was some unpleasantness. So the very fact that America exists as we know it today is proof that Imperialism doesn't work.

[Cravat]

27. You are probably right....

I guess the benevolent side of Imperialism would be quickly eclipsed by the capitalism side.

What America can and should be doing is carefully goading, sheltering, and encouraging the poorer countries of the world. And yes, even invading if it will help the world and the oppressed.

Who is next? Africa is in a sad state of affairs. Can America fix all that is wrong there? I think we can only ease the suffering with aid and encouragement. Africa requires an African solution.

Mexico is getting better. NAFTA has pumped a lot of cash into a third world nation. But they still have a long way to go.

N Korea? Possible beyond our help until there is a change in administrations or China decides to throw their weight around.

How about the middle east? I think things are looking up. As long as the mullahs in Iran don't overreact and America keeps Israel on a short leash, things will get better.

There are others. We are only one nation. Lets keep helping where we can, as many nations as we can.

[Tsiyu]

30. Cravat, no offense but quit blowing

smoke up my ass.

It is not a "just" war when you invade a nation that does not pose an immediate and direct threat to you or your allies. It is definitely not a just war when you go against the opinions of virtually the entire world. It is not a just war when you cannot afford to wage that war, and when you send 40,000 of your troops in with no more than Viet Nam era flak jackets as protection.

It is not a "just" war when you secure the oil ministry and neglect to secure the common man's hospitals and schools. It is not a just war when you allow troops to protect Halliburton employees and tell the Iraqis "Fuck you" when they wonder why you can't keep their streets safe or their museums, schools and universities from being looted.

It is not a just war when you kill babies for oil. Do they get an extra cookie before you blow them up? Is that "helping the oppressed?"

You have memorized your Repuke story well. Good on you. But the blood of many innocent people is on YOUR HANDS if you support or condone this war. Iraq is a miserable quagmire and afghanistan is the same.
IT IS NOT A SUCCESSFUL WAR when you fail to capture the one man you said was resonsible for terrorizing us. And it is not a just war to connect another man to the first simply to make a devious, deceitful case for that war. We gave Saddam and the Taliban their weapons and our support once upon a time. Rummy shook Saddam's hand.

Things are much worse in those countries and your whitewash no doubts helps you sleep at night, but the photographs haunt me. You must have no conscience. Were all Republicans born without consciences or just most of them?

[Ms. Clio]

32. Right out of the propaganda playbook

So astounding in its brazen disregard for facts, logic, or common sense that it's almost a work of art.

[Cravat]

34. Mr. Holly....

Take a look at this link: http://rawa.false.net/index.html

Now tell me that Afghanistan hasn't improved.

Iraq was a direct threat to our allies: Kuwait and Saudi

Since when were we beholden to the rest of the world?

The brass screwed up on the flacks. REMF's were issued the old style because they were not considered front line troops. In Iraq, everyone is front line. It has been corrected.

The wells were secured to prevent a repeat of the ecological disaster Saddam unleashed last time. And we wanted to preserve the equipment so we could get the oil flowing as soon as possible. We are paying fair market value for Iraqi oil. We aren't stealing the stuff.

Who did all the looting? Bet it was Iraqi looters.

How many can be killed for the common good? One, two? It is only a matter of degree. Is it really worse to kill a baby vs. an adult? Americans don't get to see violent death very often. We are lucky. If a few must die to protect the future of America then so be it. There will always be people willing to die to preserve our way of life.

[democrat_patriot]

28. So when another country see's * oppressing Americans

they can come and bomb us? And we can be called insurgents too?

Who the hell sends 150,000 troops to simply help a country? That's called occupation.

[Catfight]

4. I stand corrected, sorry. n/t

[geek tragedy]

3. Here is a site that has all of the documentation of the Taliban's abuses

http://rawa.false.net/index.html

[Catfight]

5. Thank you, I actually came across this as well. n/t

[amber dog democrat]

7. That was not true then but NOW there may well be

Taliban in Iraq. We are helping OBL with his recruiting with each passing day we occupy an Arabic speaking, Islamist country, ( and a very holy one at that ), deep in the heart of the Middle East.

We have given them a Jihad if there was not one before.

[Ms. Clio]

9. The Taliban are primarily the end product of Afghan tribal divsions

and customs, that are not necessarily related to Islam at all, so I seriously doubt there are many members of the Taliban in Iraq.

[Disturbed]

10. Laura Bush and her little crusade?

Haven't heard a thing about that since she first mentioned how she was going to help the women of Afghanistan.

[Ms. Clio]

11. and Cherie Blair, too, as I recall

Lying whores who don't give a tinker's damn about the women in their own countries, let alone anywhere else, of course.