If Kerry loses this election on us...

[Markus182]

I hope that it is the end of the Democratic party. I am sick and tired of the Daschles and the Liebermans running the party and not listening to the voices of the people who put them in power. They are afraid and they care more about retaining their seats than they care about the direction of America, more than they care about all the people dying in Iraq, more than they care about the people who put them there in the first place.

The real heroes of our party, the Kennedys and the Deans, are shouted down by the "moderate" Democrats who are nothing more than Republican shills. There has never been a more vulnerable president than Bush; he has done _nothing_ good for America and he has hurt it in countless ways, yet, somehow the only thing the Democrats have the balls to talk about is the economy. They tried the same thing in 2002 and they failed miserably! Why don't they get it? Well, here's the truth: It's the war, stupid! The president chosen on Nov. 2 will be the one who is perceived to be the strongest leader. Rove is smart in that he knows the best way to fight your opponent is to attack their greatest strength; he did that flawlessly with the Swift Boat attacks. There are still some on this board in denial about the effect those attacks had, but those of us living in the real world can see that it has not been kind to Kerry.

So what does Kerry do? He attacks Bush on the things that matter the least, jobs and health care. Sure, they're the things that _actually_ matter the most, but they're not people are going to base their vote on. Until over half of America is unemployed, it will not be the issue that we keep wanting it to be. He needs to attack Bush where it really matters, which is his so called "leadership and personally likability". Everyone here knows that both of those are BS, but we're the choir, and Kerry sure isn't preaching to anyone else.

Why is it that Michael Moore and Bill Mahr have to do the jobs of the people who should be protecting our interests? I believe we've been sold out; we'll find out on Nov. 2, and if Kerry is not our next president, there will be hell to pay.

[mike_c]

1. amen....

Welcome to DU.

[louis c]

58. Hey, mike

you don't have to welcome this freeper to DU.

You can read him at the New Republic anytime.

Can't you tell a Freeper Flame yet?

Do you think 47 days before an election is a good time to start assessing blame for a defeat in an election that's a dead heat.

How can you fall for this shit, after 1,000 posts?

[flordehinojos]

2. Don't you worry.

If Kerry loses this election on us (which he will since Bush controls the no paper trail voting machines) we will not have either the Republican or the Democratic Party. It will be the Bush State Party. We will be under a dictatorship and the Bush Family Evil Empire will have Dominance over us.

[partygirl]

3. no worries.

Kennedy is the greatest, he knows how to win. I found out he is helping Kerry. I haven't worried since then. He is the best. We will have the white house in a few months. All I wonder is how many Senate and Congress seats will we pick up?

[mitchum]

4. You will get your wish, but it will mean the end of ALL opposition parties

count on it

Jobs and health care are the important issues (you must just not be aware of it all the way up there)

[lancdem]

5. We have not been sold out

but I agree with you that there is no excuse for not beating an incumbent as vulnerable as Bush. None whatsoever.

[MichiganVote]

6. Huh?????

"So what does Kerry do? He attacks Bush on the things that matter the least, jobs and health care. Sure, they're the things that _actually_ matter the most, but they're not people are going to base their vote on. Until over half of America is unemployed, it will not be the issue that we keep wanting it to be."
****

You must not be from Michigan. All of the above are the issues Michigan voters ARE concerned about and will vote around. Criticize away but there are many states with many needs. Kerry/Edwards are speaking out on the issues voters care about in Michigan.

[mitchum]

32. They're not from Michigan (check the profile)

:)

[stavka]

55. I have never voted for somebody I disliked other than John Kerry

...but I'm still voting, I'm still funding.

That might be a slogan - "Hell, I don't even like the guy - but I'm vote'n for him!"

[JackDragna]

7. Don't give up on the party just yet.

Like you, I'm exasperated by what I see as Republican-lites in positions of power. I understand one has to play the game of realpolitik, but sometimes people have to take a stand for what's right because of the consequences of letting bad policy become reality. The Iraq war was a perfect example of where every Democrat in the government should have yelled and hollered about the president.

My only warning is to not neglect the Democratic Party at the local level. In many areas, Democratic candidates are progressive, liberal and responsive to the needs of the people. I've worked on many campaigns and know these candidates need our support.

[Demonaut]

9. he's got a point though, I think some dems may be discouraged BUT

Kerry will win......I've got $150 bet on Kerry between two freeper friends and I intend to collect.........seriously though we need to hire an evil fuck like Rove to spearhead smear attacks, pay him handsomely, give him an island, just get his undivided attention and loyalty

[agincourt]

8. My two cents,

I think you are a little too hard on Kerry and the dems, and that you overestimate the Crawford rats vulnerability. Nothing that goes wrong for this country ever seems to be that ratshit's fault. He is never held accountable for anything. I bang my fist on the wall, because he is worth 3 failed presidencies and he has a 50% approval rating.

[AnnInLa]

10. I cannot disagree more!

Wake up and look around, and see what the Dems and Kerry are contending with:

1. A dumbed-down public that is very frightened after 9/11 and just wants a macho "daddy" to protect them. (The Who's Your Daddy Effect)

2. A mainstream press that suppresses the real issues, and plays up periferal side issues, like Swifties.... a press obviously controlled by big corporations-- who own the repug party who controls--

3. The Senate, the House, and the courts.

ALL Kerry has done is tell the truth, address all the issues constantly, and represent the Dems in an all-out, honest way.

If the repugs win this year, then you can give up and die, I don't care. But, this is what rove wants: a one-party system, with the Dems being a nominal, ineffectual party. When that happens, the corporations and Saudi Arabia will own this country. When Michael Moore told that repug puke, "You're not talking to a wimpy Democrat now," he was speaking for me. I will continue to be in their face until the people wake up and demand their country back, no matter how long that takes. I have 3 children and 1 granddaughter, and I am not ceding this country to them, ever. I don't believe Kerry will either.

It's like we tell the repugs who are so gung-ho about the war---why don't you go over there yourself----if you are so upset about the way Kerry and the Dems have run this campaign, go do something about it. Run for local office, contribute big bucks, volunteer for the Dems. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF instead of whining about what others do.

[Leilani]

11. I think both parties have failed miserably.

Lots of Repubs feel exactly like the Dems...their party is not representing them.

The Fundie Wingnuts have taken control & that leaves a lot of dissatisfied conservatives, also.

Neither party listens to its constituents; they are bought & paid for by special interests.

They have given away our jobs, we are losing our middle class, & all the politicos are giving themselves raises.

This illegal war was authorized by both parties.

Our despicable policy in the Mideast is supported by both parties.

And on, and on.

Count me fed up!

[951]

12. He's done all that he can possibly do

...its up to the american people now.

[alittlelark]

16. He's doing all he can

and doing it well. If we could just get the 'lib'rul media' to give him the light of day - or even a flashlight beam....

[GodHelpUsAll2]

54. And that

my friends is the scariest part. 50%.......50 freaking damn percent think W is doing a fine and dandy job. Less than 60 days to Nov. 2 and right at 30 for early voting to begin. Unless there is a MAJOR awakening in the next 30 days me thinks we might be screwed.

[UpsideDownFlag]

13. i agree with you on a few points, particular Daschle's 'leadership'

but the democratic part is changing. dean and kucinich helped a lot, and the Bushies have scared most of them straight. the days of Clinton Centrism republicanism are mostly over, i believe.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. I wouldn't call the Clinton administration "centrism"

It was more like, okay we can't do jack shit while the GOP controlls congress, so let's just gain political favor so that one day we will be able to get something done.

[Kanary]

19. "Gaining political favor" at the expense of poor people is IMMORAL.

[Hippo_Tron]

49. Well, I see it with good intentions...

My opinion is that if Clinton could've enacted a progressive agenda he would have. Unfortunately, there was not a prayer of a chance of this with a Republican congress who's only real goal was to destroy his presidency. I think Clinton did the things that he did with the hope that either he or Al Gore (when he became president) would be able to pass a healthcare plan, fix social security, etc. If Clinton had truly had the opportunity to do something good for the people but didn't to gain political favor, then I would see it as immoral. Clinton just never really had the opportunity to do the things that he wanted.

[UpsideDownFlag]

25. to quote michael moore...

"Bill Clinton was the best republican president we ever had".

[kerry-is-my-prez]

43. At one point, Daschle tried to fight but they just wore him down....

at that point he should have quit his leadership position and let someone who had the energy to fight take over.

[mmonk]

14. If

such a thing happens, we may have to rely on people investigating different issues that take the pledge to the constitution seriously to hold this republic from anymore harm. People in the democratic party that have no problem with the way this country has been going since bush was selected need to leave it and we need people who believe its time to be great democratic republic again.

[Crachet2004]

15. I agree...and welcome to DU.

I am doing everything I can to help us win, but failing that, I believe we need to start over.

As many verifiable lies Bush has told, and with as many dead as there are in Iraq, as bad as the economy, health care, inflation, the environment, outsourcing, the homeless, education, and on and on...as bad as all of this is, Kerry should be a shoe-in-but he evidently is not.

Given all the forgoing, if the Democratic Party cannot beat George Bush, I will be done with the Democratic Party.

Howard Dean showed the way, with the netroots...that is where the energy will be, from here on out. And the Doctor is correct in saying we need to start with school boards, if we have to, and work our way up. Build a Party from the ground up. Win local elections with volunteers and money infusions from all over the US.

I would rather spend twenty years building a new Party, than I would waste ANOTHER twenty years backing Democrats who betray us once we DO win.

If we win, as part of a core constituency, I expect something for it. I expect to see benefits for labor, minorities, women, etc... I want fair trade as well as free trade...no more Clintonesque copouts, like NAFTA, and welfare 'reform'. I want to be represented the way Bush represents HIS constituency, the 'have mores'.

And John Kerry would be twenty points ahead in the polls RIGHT NOW, if he had just said, 'the reason I voted to give George Bush the power to wage war against Iraq, is because he LIED to us! He lied to Congress, and he lied to the American People. He told us Saddam could put together a nuclear weapon in 45 minutes. He LIED!!!'

Edwards evidently told an audience today there will be no draft, if we win...this is a start. But he told this to an audience in Parkersburg WV!!!! This should have been a major policy announcement! Complete with marching bands and fireworks! What the hell is going on with our campaign?

I gotta be honest, there are a LOT of people who have just about had it with BOTH parties.

I look for whichever Party loses this time, to fall onto some EXTREMELY hard times.

Parties have risen and fallen in American politics many times before now...and it can Damn sure happen again.

I just hope it is the GOP, which takes the hit.

[Uzybone]

21. you are a dreamer

Hello! Most Americans already think Bush lied about WMDs. It doesnt make a difference. All Bush says is "so you'd rather have Saddam in power" and the media will paint Democrats as Saddam loving pussies. Obviously you do not know what we are up against.

[Crachet2004]

27. I know exactly what we are up against, and if we win this time, fine.

If not, I am going to be one of the ones starting over to build a Party that CAN win.

Some people seem to thrive on continual, lifelong asskickings...I do NOT.

I have been a Democrat for thirty years, but I am not too old to go another way, if it becomes obvious I am wasting my time.

I repeat, Kerry could have shoved Bush's lies about Iraq sideways up their collective ass, and we would be trouncing the GOP across the board...but he didn't...

A golden opportunity gone.

One last chance. That's all I am willing to give.

I will join the youngsters in their Net Revolution.

I will start over.

[Jack_Dawson]

18. ...then NO MORE IOWA and NEW HAMPSHIRE

picking our candidates. Leave it to the smart people in California, New York, Illinois and Massachussetts. :toast:

[robbedvoter]

24. You mean like Ahrnuld, Pataki, Bloomberg rather than Harkin, Vilsak?

Forgot Romney too. As a New Yorker I wish I could be a bit prouder about the way we vote.

[Jack_Dawson]

33. No...more like Boxer, Feinstein, Kennedy, Obama, Clinton and of course...

Gray Davis, before democracy was hijacked. :toast:

[Crachet2004]

28. That IS bullshit, the way a win in freaking IOWA can pretty much wrap...

The whole deal up. People are blind if they cannot see what a crock that is, how it lends itself to manipulation of the process.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

60. And boy does it do that

I was fortunate enough to get to observe and actual Iowa caucus this past January. It is the biggest steaming pile of shit way to pick a candidate I have ever seen in my life. And you are correct, it is wide open for corruption and manipulation. After being there, and witnessing it first hand, I am convinced they leave Iowa and New Hampshire in place just for that very reason. Did you know that only about 100,000 people STATE WIDE participate in the Iowa caucus? 100,000 people. That's it. And that very small minority of the country decided the fate for all of us. Now I ask you, how much can we trust the honesty and integrity in that? Not to mention Iowa is also a state with virtually NO diversity. I bleieve the stats there are 94% white. Yep, that's a model place to get a feel for what the country as a whole wants. As I said, a big steaming pile of shit!

[Crachet2004]

63. Yeah, the fact that New Hampshire is so whitebread is the original...

Reason it was first, back when it WAS first. I worked there once, and I think they had 2% minorities in the state. Very antiunion, too. A conservative state, in the old sense of the word.

Two states like that, right in a row, both small...well call me cynical, but something just needs to be done about it. It is so obvious what is going on.

And the Party suffers, when all we get to represent us are hacks, instead of someone like Howard Dean, who might actually DO something besides kiss George Bush's ass, on Iraq.

If we lose this time, I think Dean is going to start something very big...and I am going to be a part of it. The time would be ripe.

But I hope we don't lose, as there is just too much at stake. Maybe with the internet, and communication among ourselves, we can take the Party back from the DLC.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

64. I agree

There is way too much at stake. But I am irritated as hell with the "politics as usual" from the democrats.

Have you checked out DFA 2.0? I believe it is, and will continue to be be a force to be reckone with. Howard Dean just inspires people.

p.s I was in Iowa for the infamous "scream". It was an unbelievable experience. What the media made it out to be was soo far from the truth it's unreal.

[prolesunited]

20. Dude

You're from CANADA!!! Why would you join this board and declare death to the Dem Party in the U.S.? :shrug:

[mitchum]

34. Because he's a prick?

Notice to mods: that was a question, not an accusation

[Markus182]

44. Because

I know I'm Canadian but I am very concerned about the outcome of the American elections, as are many people across the world. The fact is, the choice in the leader of the USA affects Canada and the rest of the world greatly.

I'm also not here to wish death to the Dem party, but I do feel very strongly that if it does not do what it takes to win this election it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. As a Canadian what I can do is limited but I try to do my own individual part every day by defending Kerry whenever I hear him attacked and spreading the truths about the Bush administration (an admittedly easier task in Canada where 85% of the population wants Bush to lose).

[Cat Atomic]

22. It's because we've got a couple of "wedge issue" parties.

And they're both determined to avoid the issues that would actually help the poor and middle class. They both act like the term "class warfare" is taboo and shouldn't be brought up, even though the rich have been waging a class war (and winning) for years.

I've come to believe that all this wrangling for "swing voters" and "moderates" is really just an expression of a bigger problem. Neither party wants to appeal the poor and middle class by actually helping them. They'd rather run on wedge issue bullshit, and keep our rigged society as it is.

And I agree with you completely- if Kerry loses this November, it's because of the moderates and their endless "positive campaign", wedge issue bullshit.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

23. What have YOU done to WIN this election "on us"??

Are you an expat up there in Ontario?

Are you qualified to vote in U.S. elections? Are you old enough?

You remind me of sports fans who cry about what their favorite teams have done to them. "If they don't win this year, fuck 'em!"

As for moderate Dems being GOP shills, I'm deeply unimpressed by your understanding of politics and how every branch of the government is stacked against Democrats.

And if you think jobs and health care are the least important issues facing Americans, I have to wonder if you're old enough to hold a job or pay for your own health care.

Enjoy your stay at DU.

[Markus182]

45. Me

You're probably right in that I should refer to the U.S. elections as "them", not "us"; take it as a token of how strongly I feel about these elections that I sometimes forget it is not my own country's leader I'm talking about. I'm not trying to be too abrasive, but I would prefer talking about the content of what I wrote more than whether I am personally justified in writing it. This election is my business; it is the business of every person in the world. I cannot vote in the elections, but I will do what I can (which is less than I would like) by vocally defending Kerry at every chance I get and supporting him through 527s.

I am aware of how the system of government works. I don't expect that the Democrats should be able to block all the Republican legislation that comes their way. But when Tom Daschle talks about supporting Bush in his own reelection campaign, and speaks his doubts on the authenticity of "the memo", I do not see that as leadership. That is shilling. The Democrats tried the Republican-lite approach in 2002 and it was a disaster. But too many of them are afraid to actually speak for those who elected them so they just keep quiet about Bush, knowing that the 98% reelection rate for incumbents is on their side as long as they just don't make too much noise.

Jobs and health care: I said that I believe these are the most important issues facing Americans. But I also don't believe it is what the majority of Americans are going to base their vote on, EVEN IF they say they will (which is why I believe focus groups to be almost totally useless). I believe you are underestimating the effectiveness of the politics of fear. If Bush can convince the people that he will be more effective in protecting them against another terrorist attack, he will win. But instead of fighting him straight on on this issue, Kerry prefers to talk about what I consider the "easy issues". He goes after Bush's weakness instead of his strength. Yes, Kerry talks about terrorism too, but not strongly enough and not often enough. And I do NOT believe he needs to be Bush-lite about it. Rather, there is more than enough material to attack Bush's own leadership illusion; the seven minutes on 9/11, the Iraq war lies, and so on. On a side note, don't you find it funny that it's the midwestern farmers who are the most concerned about terrorist attacks and the city dwellers who are the least concerned? It just shows that you can't always expect people to be logical and you have to address their fears and concerns whether you personally consider them to be warranted or not.

And thank you; I'm working on my post count, I think my problem is I tend to only post long messages so I don't have the little short ones to bring my count up.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

61. Oh geez

As for moderate Dems being GOP shills, I'm deeply unimpressed by your understanding of politics and how every branch of the government is stacked against Democrats.


Will the excuses ever end? And before you decide to question my right to bitch about the Dems I will tell you a few things. I am an American, I'm old enough to vote (have been for quite some time now so this ain't my first BBQ), and I have been actvely working my ass OFF for the democratic party since last JULY. I have left my child in the care of others so I could travel out of state and help and when I was home I have had my child out on the streets with me in the freaking rain, the heat and whatever else was out there at the time. I have been walking and knocking and talking, making endless phone calls, sending money I didn't really have in the form of campaign donations, written letters, waged an email assault on the media and inflamed not only my employers but also a few of my loved ones and several friends trying to get them to see the light. And, what do I get in return for all that work? EXCUSES! Freaking damn excuses. "The deck is stacked against the Dems", "the Republicans have more money" "The media is against us". Blah blah blah.

Where I do not disagree with any of those things and am smart enough to see for myself that this is a down and dirty battle being waged in the gutter, I am getting sick and damn tired of hearing people tell me whenever I, or anyone else has even the remotest negative remark about the dems "Stop Whinning", "The odds are against us" "wait and see what happened AFTER the election" followed up by questioning their intelligence on how this cluster fuck all works and doing such in an arrogant "I know all and you know dick" tone.

Well, my response to that is. KISS MY ASS!!!! YOU wait and see until AFTER the election, YOU keep up the whining and making excuses" keep it up and see where it gets you. I on the other hand will wage this war as hard as I can. And in the infamous words of our FAKE president, you are either with us or against us. It's your choice, but if you want to whine and make excuses fine, I'll find someone who REALLY gives a shit and put all of my efforts towards them. Because you can't help those who WON'T help themselves.


note; I am mad as hell and I am NOT going to take it anymore!

[hansolsen]

26. Win or lose, there is a war on for the soul of the Democratic Party. The

DLC is in one faction and I am in the other faction. I bet you are too. That war is more important in the long run than this election.

[Hello_Kitty]

37. The Pubs are in a war too

Between the paleo-Cons and the neo-Cons. The neo-Cons are truly frightening and I think the paleos realize that at this point.

[Dirk39]

29. Kennedy...

As much as I share your opinion about moderate democrats. What did your hero Kennedy do, to win the election?
He did offend Nixon for being "soft on communism", based on faked intelligence by former german nazis (the Gehlen group).
It was as fabricated as every lie Bush ever told, but Kennedy did win. I don't see much of a difference between Kennedy's lies and Kerry's strategy at all.
Don't beat me: I know that the USA is the fastest country on earth to replace history and reality with myths.

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[PassingFair]

30. Check out Democracy for America, Markus

It's a group of "progressive" dems working for transparency in government. There are so many local chapters that I think you should just google Democracy for America, and go from there.

[mitchum]

31. Markus, shouldn't you come back and at least respond to some...

of the responses? Not that I'm accusing you of being a post-and-run troll or anything. It would also get that post count up.

[Markus182]

47. Okay (n/t)

[mitchum]

48. Well, that got you up to 42. How's the weather outside of the US?

[Hello_Kitty]

35. CNN's Tucker Carlson, who has recanted his position on the war...

Keeps saying over and over that the Democrats need to focus on Iraq if we want to win. Now, I know he's a conservative but I think he's right. He's basically telling us exactly what we need to do, despite the fact that he's ostensibly still supporting them. The Kerry base is the anti-war crowd and we need to play to them. Everyone already knows the Dems are better for health care, jobs, and the little guy in general. That goes without saying. Let's hit him where he's really weak, on his bullshit war!

[Hippo_Tron]

51. Why are you listening to Fucker Carlson?

All he's trying to do is make it look like the democrats are weak.

[lgardengate]

But if Bushco "wins" what can we really do but get angrey?nt

[lgardengate]

36. But if Bushco "wins" what can we really do but get angrey?nt

[bvar22]

38. If the Dems lose

I will find an Opposition Party and give them my time, money, and blood.
If you refuse to fight for me, I will no longer fight for you.
The Dems and Kerry/Edwards own me until Nov. 2nd.

[lgardengate]

41. that is an idea i like. I think the modarats have all but taken over.

Clinton was pretty good but he was a moderate and really put the DLC in control. it worked for him but the party is divided (imo).

[Zinfandel]

39. Kerry WON"T lose...but the election can & will be stolen, again .If

we do nothing, and allow it to occur...meaning we have to search and expose it in EVERY precinct.

Popular vote again will mean nothing...a precinct here and there is all it will take to steal the electoral votes...

These are real and true fascist as we ALL know...they won't give up power because of votes.

Kerry can and must make this a priority.

[w4rma]

40. I hope you're more than talk and are out there trying to prevent that from

happening, then.

[AlFrankenFan]

42. amen, amen...as my hero once said...

"I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party."

Unfortunately since he died it's began to disappear. We have indeed been sold out.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

65. Here here

I second that.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

46. I agree with "It's the War, stupid!" n/t

[arwalden]

50. I'm Pretty Moderate And I'm No "Republican Shill"...

[geek tragedy]

52. This jackass finally got banned.

Earlier, he was calling for Kerry to be IMPEACHED after being elected.

Good riddance to bad Naderite rubbish.

[Hippo_Tron]

53. You mean freeper rubbish

It's become pretty easy to tell the difference between a Nader supporter and a freep.

[louis c]

56. You Can't Tell That This

Thread is a way to get us defeated.

There will be plenty of time to either celebrate or write an obituary when the election is over.

This defeatist bullshit is from someone who wants us to lose.

[NightTrain]

57. ...I'll personally drive the 2 hours to Boston and put a foot up his ass!

Fair enough?

[Deja Q]

59. I concur

You said it best. :thumbsup:

Welcome to DU! :party: :bounce:

[AmerDem]

62. Get a grip

and save your bullshit for after the election. All energy needs to be poured into getting Kerry in office!