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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:06 PM
Original message
Gallup admits its polls are skewed.
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/002806.html

Friday :: Sep 17, 2004
Why You Should Ignore The Gallup Poll This Morning - And Maybe Other Gallup Polls As Well
This morning we awoke to the startling news that despite a flurry of different polls this week all showing a tied race, the venerable Gallup Poll, as reported widely in the media (USA Today and CNN) today, showed George W. Bush with a huge 55%-42% lead over John Kerry amongst likely voters. The same Gallup Poll showed an 8-point lead for Bush amongst registered voters (52%-44%). Before you get discouraged by these results, you should be more upset that Gallup gets major media outlets to tout these polls and present a false, disappointing account of the actual state of the race. Why?

Because the Gallup Poll, despite its reputation, assumes that this November 40% of those turning out to vote will be Republicans, and only 33% will be Democrat. You read that correctly. I asked Gallup, who have been very courteous to my requests, to send me this morning their sample breakdowns by party identification for both their likely and registered voter samples they use in these national and I suspect their state polls. This is what I got back this morning:

Likely Voter Sample Party IDs – Poll of September 13-15
Reflected Bush Winning by 55%-42%

Total Sample: 767
GOP: 305 (40%)
Dem: 253 (33%)
Ind: 208 (28%)


Read the full article for more annoyance with the pollsters...

THIS is exactly why I distrust most of the national polls, and it illustrates perfectly why I still think Kerry is going to win.


Laura
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow.
That's just amazing.

I'm assuming that far more Democrats are going to vote this year than usual. Bush has done alot to energize the Democratic base.

By the way- 28% Independant? Doesn't "Independant" skew conservative as well?
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. in the past 3 elections more Dems than repugs voted.... it's sinful Gallup
can control the media opinion with such bullshit
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Damn- double post.
Edited on Wed Sep-22-04 10:14 PM by Cat Atomic
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, but your sig pic
...makes it worth it. LMAO!
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. i don't believe the polls either and this just reinforces my beliefs.
:kick:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is absolutely stunning
Doesn't it sort of defeat the whole "random" thing?

Really, I'm not big on numbers at all, let alone the fine art of statistics, so I'm asking: Isn't this not only giving a false impression of Bush's popularity (as the article points out), but also violate the whole "scientific" because it's "random"????
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. Yes It Does, But. . .
. . .there is valid statistical concept called stratified random sampling. This is, obviously, not a good example of it, but one can do the sample in a way to get the read on a known set of strata to get the proper read of a random set within each strata.

The Gallup people, unfortunately, are basing their strata on spurious information, and a guess that is only about good at the 75% confidence interval. Given the ranges they use, they have introduced more error in the final result than a purely random sample could have.

It does explain a lot, however. Remember that only Gallup shows the gap this large. Pew and Zogby both still have it as a dead heat. Somewhere in the archives, there is a post of a Zogby article in which he reveals the flaws in Gallup's methodology. So, this isn't really new. Pollsters and statisticians have known that Gallup's numbers are suspect for some time now.
The Professor
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks. I appreciate your response.
And, it even sorta makes sense, which is a prnouncement on my knowledge of statistics (or lack thereof), not the quality of the post. ;-)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. I think Gallup is more susceptible to poll-busting, too.
I'd be willing to bet their "party identifcation" demographics don't filter out the right-wingers posing as "democrats" nearly as well as Zogby.
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Calling TIA!! What are the results if the correct distrbution is used?
I recall reading on a thread here that the numbers are traditionally closer to Dems at 39%, repugs at 35% and Ind/other at 27%. So there is no reason for the distribution gallup is using, in fact if they are giving pugs any boost the Dems should get double just for the stolen 2000 election factor alone!!

So, if youo apply the CORRECT distribution to the poll, what are the results? My guess, Kerry by 4%.

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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. of course you wont hear this
on corporate media channels.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-22-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Gallup Editor's Response to items like this:
Edited on Wed Sep-22-04 11:45 PM by tritsofme
Take it for what it is:

In criticizing our polls, some people have suggested that Gallup is intentionally biased -- either pro-Bush or pro-Kerry, too conservative or too liberal, too much in favor of either Democrats or Republicans. The criticisms appear to depend on whether our polls at the time show more support for one candidate or the other, particularly in comparison with other polls at the time. Here are some points to keep in mind.



1. Our goal is to be as objective as possible in the conduct of our polls, so that we can present as accurate a picture as possible of what the public is thinking.



2. There is absolutely no incentive for Gallup to be biased in any direction. Ultimately, on Election Day, we want our numbers to correspond as closely to the final outcome as possible. It would do us no good to show a 13-point lead for one candidate, while in fact the other candidate wins.



3. Gallup's accuracy record over the years has shown no systematic bias toward either the Republican or the Democratic candidates. In the 17 presidential elections that Gallup has covered, there have been 8 in which the final prediction (compared with the actual election results) gave the Republican candidate slightly too large of a margin, 6 in which the Democratic candidate was given slightly too large of a margin, and 3 elections in which the margin was precisely accurate.



Since 1968, Gallup has shown a slightly too high margin for Republicans in three elections, slightly too high a margin for Democrats in three elections, and two elections with an exact prediction of the margin.



Here is how the accuracy record looks for the past several elections (the percentage in the difference between what the vote winner got and what Gallup showed):



2000: 2 points (error in Republican direction)

1996: 3 points (error in Democratic direction)

1992: 6 points (error in Democratic direction)

1988: 2 points (error in Republican direction)

1984: 0 points (exact prediction)

1980: 4 points (error in Democratic direction)

1976: 2 points (error in Republican direction)

1972: 0 points (exact prediction)

1968: exact prediction of the margin; Nixon and Humphrey's totals each underestimated by 1 point

1964: 3 points (error in the Democratic direction)

1960: 1 point (error in the Democratic direction)

1956: 2 points (error in the Republican direction)

1952: 4 points (error in the Democratic direction)

1948: 5 points (error in the Republican direction)

1944: 2 points (error in the Republican direction)

1940: 3 points (error in the Republican direction)

1936: 7 points (error in the Republican direction)

-------------------------------------

We've had many inquiries and comments about the latest Gallup Poll trial heat results on the presidential race. Our editorial team will be responding to as many of the issues raised as possible here over the next day or two.



One question that comes up frequently (and apparently is based on various statements bouncing around the Net) concerns the party identification of the respondents in our sample. The supposition on the part of some is that these party identification figures from poll to poll should be constant and the same as some standard established from previous polling.



That's simply not the correct way to look at party identification. At Gallup (as is the case for many other polling firms), we ask party identification at the end of the survey using this wording: " In politics, as of today, do you consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat, or an independent? " Our experience tells us that this is not a fixed demographic measure (like age or gender or ethnicity), but rather is a variable in and of itself. While many Americans are hard-core Republicans or hard-core Democrats and never would call themselves anything different, there is a group of Americans who have no firm party allegiance and whose political identification can and does shift during an election season.



In fact, if one candidate is doing particularly well, it is usually the case that more people in the sample will identify with that candidate's party. Thus, if Kerry is having a good period of time in the campaign (as was the case after the Democratic primaries last February and March, and again in June and July of this summer), then more people will identify as Democrats at the end of the questionnaire when we ask with which party they identify "as of today." If Bush is doing better, as he is now, then more people at the end of the questionnaire will identify as Republicans.



Furthermore, there are no Census or official figures on party identification nationally. A number of states do not require party registration, and what a person calls himself or herself can vary significantly from week to week or month to month.



So it is incorrect to say that a poll's showing one candidate to be ahead is the result of the fact that there are too many members of his party in the sample. In fact, that there are more people identifying with a leading candidate's party is a result of the same forces that are pushing that candidate into the lead.



One final note. Gallup (and other reputable pollsters) do carefully analyze the compositions of each sample on known demographic measures for which there are solid Census figures: age, gender, region of country, ethnicity, and education. And we do weight each sample to each of these if necessary, using complex and accepted statistical procedures. So our samples are remarkably constant from poll to poll on known demographic and regional measures. But in a political year we don't expect that samples will be the same from poll to poll in terms of party identification, any more than we expect the samples to be the same from poll to poll in terms of the choice of candidate for whom the respondents are voting.

http://gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=12292
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. ...since 1968... WRONG 3/4 of the time..Not a great record..
...Since 1968, Gallup has shown a slightly too high margin for Republicans in three elections, slightly too high a margin for Democrats in three elections, and two elections with an exact prediction of the margin.....
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MallRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. Wow. THIS passage effectively invalidates their weighting methods.
"In fact, if one candidate is doing particularly well, it is usually the case that more people in the sample will identify with that candidate's party. Thus, if Kerry is having a good period of time in the campaign (as was the case after the Democratic primaries last February and March, and again in June and July of this summer), then more people will identify as Democrats at the end of the questionnaire when we ask with which party they identify "as of today." If Bush is doing better, as he is now, then more people at the end of the questionnaire will identify as Republicans."

OK. I understand- there is a certain subset of the polled populations that are either frontrunners, or people who tip from independent to a party affiliation and back again, depending on which candidate is doing better. I think that's reasonable.

But here's where the logic disintegrates: how do you quantify which candidate is doing well, so that you can weight the D/R/I ratio correctly? We're not even talking about a qualitative estimate folks... Gallup adjusts party affiliation right down to the nearest percent. How do they arrive at 39% Republican, 34% Democrat?

You can't use your raw polling data, because you can't differentiate between solid party affiliators and weak ones. You can't use other polls. You can't use the polling data from one or two weeks ago, because voter enthusiasm changes daily.

So what's left? "Conventional wisdom?" A Ouija board?

Basically, does this mean that if Gallup "senses" that Bush is doing well, then he MUST be doing well, and he receives a 5-6 point skew in his favor?

Someone explain this to me.

-MR
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. The banality of evil... <<<Grrrrrrrreat>>> Post n/t
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 12:27 AM by autorank
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. What a crock!

They do a horseshit workplace survey too.

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Chomskyite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. Look at the job they did on Gore in late Oct
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 01:45 AM by Chomskyite
Notice how the size of the sample goes from 700 to nearly 2,000 in just a few short weeks as the Gallup people realize their final result isn't going to conform to the election result in time.
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CityDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. This is a big shock
Gallup is skewing a poll. I am so shocked by this revelation.
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. Are we serious? Recognize the Rove bullshit!
Kerry will kick ass...but the republican fascist will steal it, again! (Via BBV).
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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. And they aren't counting people like me...
... who usually don't vote but registered to vote in this election. Those numbers will be huge. It's like when the feminists marched in Washington with a giant turnout. They didn't have reason to before. The real numbers will be a surprise because the conservatives had their based active. Dems didn't but do now.

How popular would DU have been 5, 6 years ago? FreeRepublic was very active even then. There wasn't the need for DU back then like there is now.

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?w=379&h=216&r=6m&u=democraticunderground.com/&u=freerepublic.com

How? They cheat on the Alexa toolbar, of course, but even so, DU is right up there with them.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Actually there WAS a need for DU back then, but Liberals that we are,
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 02:37 AM by SoCalDem
we "assumed" that the repubes would tire of flogging Clinton hourly, and would eventually turn their minds back to governance..


We were WRONG...and woke up in November of 2000..

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. Judy woodruff is gonna pull her hair out.....
if she is not allowed to use her beloved gallup poll while pronouncing aWol* king of the world. Poor judy....
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. I could give them zip codes and telephone prefix's around here..
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 07:57 AM by OneTwentyoFive
That would have Bush on top at least 57 to 40 any given day and I'm sure many on this site could do the same. But... that's no where near a true sample of America.

Bottom line is when I heard that 10-11% lead for Bush BS weeks ago was that a FULL 10 or 11% of voters who went with Gore have now switched back to Bush?!?!?! In this economy??,with this disaster of a War going on??,with fuel prices going through the roof??

Come on.....

David
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
20. GallopGate......nt
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. I think Kerry's going to win because...

28% plus 33% equals 61%. Know any Independants that are particularly pleased with *?
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. Just look at VENEZUELA!!!...Polls showed Chavez 20% behind ........
And then, you have Chavez WINNING by 17% points.

Bush owns the media,
the Media owns the polls,
So..................
Bush OWNS the polls.

In Venezuela .....Bush owned the Venezuelan Opposition,
the opposition owned the media!!!
And their media owned the polls!!!!

But,..... they lost due to the turn out!!!!

CHAVEZ WON!!!
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. Fixing the poll numbers make it easier to steal the election
If the real numbers are shown and they try to steal election, there would be a lot of doubt whether or not Bush really won. Hence, the favorable poll numbers for Bush-gang.:+ :+ :+ :spank:
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supercrash Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
26. Holy batshit!
The American voters have given the Democrats more votes than the republicans in the LAST 3 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS

Yet...somehow...there are more republican voters ...?

*Jumps out window*
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. This should be sent to Olbermann!
He will have a hay day with this!

countdown@msnbc.com

I'm off to email Keith! :bounce:
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Jasper 91 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. There is a frightening reason for these skewed polls .
Edited on Thu Sep-23-04 07:39 PM by Delightful
If all the polls showed that Kerry was in the lead , as I believe he truly is , there would be an uproar if Bush went on to win the election , with cries of fraud again .

However , if the polls show Bush leading , when he steals this election , people may be fooled into thinking that he may have won fairly and not contest the result . The Republicans will be gloating that the election result confirmed what all the polls had been reporting .
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