Should Lyndie Englund Be Prosecuted?

[SeekingTruth]

I believe what Seymour Hersh has been saying - that there is no way some young soliders from small town America knew the ways to humiliate those Iraqi prisoners in the ways that they did.

I'm not saying what she did was right, but that she is a scapegoat and was encouraged to do the things that she did by others.

I hope that when it is possible, if she is convicted, and I believe she will be, that somehow a politican can pardon her.

[951]

1. Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes

But very unlikely to happen

[gumby]

2. What is the case against her?

All I know is that she posed for pictures.

[chicagojoe]

7. Posing in the pictures is as bad as any other part of this.

She knew right from wrong. The biggest problem here is that those at the top will escape justice.

[sffreeways]

11. Her behavior is

against the military code of justice. Forget the torture...well don't but despite it she still broke the rules big time.

Yep, she's a scapegoat all right but in the eyes of the military videotaping yourself having sex with another soldier in front of prisoners is subject to punishment.

Scapegoat or not she's a pig and was enjoying her part in the abuse of those Iraqis and that's only what we saw. I hope she sits in the brig for a good long while.

Even Gerald Ford wouldn't pardon PFC Englund

[LostInAnomie]

3. Yes. Convicted and harshly sentenced.

Just following orders is no excuse. I do hope that they draw out her trial as long as possible though and full expose and embarrass all of those that are complicit in it.

[LostInAnomie]

4. delete

WHOOPS! DOUBLE POST!

[chicagojoe]

5. Ignorance is no excuse. Wrong is wrong.

This is the problem: most of Americas military is made up of lesser educated, lower working-class people. They joined the military as a way out of their conditions. It has LONG been a white-trash dumping ground.
The best and brightest would not behave this way.
EVERYONE involved in the tortures at that prison, from the top to the bottom, should do A LOT OF TIME. PERIOD.

[bluestateguy]

6. Yes

I fully endorse prosecuting the commanding officers and conducting a more thorough investigation of the whole scandal.

But to not prosecute this woman would forever allow soldiers to claim that they were "just following orders". That is not acceptable. The Nuremburg trials established a precedent that soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yes but don't stop there

Karpinsky and Sanches need to face the music as well

[underseasurveyor]

9. Another Yes

There's no excuse. Not to mention she took pleasure in her extra curricular duties.
L. England deserves no pardon.

[Disturbed]

15. OK

What did she do? How much prison time would be fair for her?

Not excusing her but did she beat prisoners? Did she jam objects in their anus? Did she hurt them? Did she kill any prisoner?

Others did these things. Navy Seals have been charged with actually causing prisoners deaths. I thought Navy Seals had more honor than that?

The CIA and private contractors have a large part in all of this, as do the Lts., Captains, Colnels,Generals, Rumsfailed and the buck stops at the Pres. desk.

[sffreeways]

16. The man at the end of the leash

was wincing in pain on the floor naked. She did indeed appear to have beaten prisoners. And you don't have to jam anything anywhere to be subject to court marshall for the acts she committed. And those are just the ones in the photos. There is little doubt she didn't stop there.

[underseasurveyor]

17. How much time should she serve? Depends.

The more henious the crime, the more length of time. Aside from posing with naked prisoners and degrading them as human beings, I don't know the full extent of her involvement. But I also believe every head, bar and stripe involved above her should roll too. All the way to the top.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. One word

Nuremberg

I was obeying orders is not a valid defense

that said, she has to face the music, but so does BGen karpinsky and LtGen Sanches... as well as the contractors

As to teh Seals, they will be dealt as well, under military law

Oh and torture goes against the Geneva Convention AND the UCMJ, so yes she has to be tried for her crimes... with the qualifier that so do her superiors in the chain

Should her punishment be as severe as those who gave the orders? That is a good question, Nuremberg gave the worst penalties to those at the top, and if the system worked (it is not) then Rumsfeld should be facing a Court of Law for War Crimes as well

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. Yes, she should be convicted; no, she shouldn't be pardoned.

She and the other enlisted reserves implicated in the prison abuse scandal were likely following orders given them by officers in military intelligence; but that does not absolve them of culpability. That's what's known as the "Nuremberg Defence" ("But we were only following orders!"). It didn't work there, either. And if Nuremberg and other trials after WWII established any precedent, it was that soldiers bear the responsibility for carrying out criminal orders.

[Lexingtonian]

12. Yes

These were violations of the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions, and she must have known it at some level. 'I was just following orders' is an unacceptable defense for her situation. It was felonious at some level to be part of it, e.g. conspiracy to violate international human rights laws. She is getting time in Leavenworth.

Yes, she is something of a scapegoat and probably did very little of the material harm to the prisoners herself. She will probably be given an incommensurately harsh sentence. Her trouble is that she can't, or won't, reveal the identities of the interrogators whose orders she didn't/wouldn't challenge. She wasn't smart enough to get real names and her lawyers apparently can't break the National Security argument against the subpoenas they'd need in order to identify them via CIA or Pentagon records. So she's being punished for obvious stupidity as well as the subtler stupidity of not ducking out of 'assignments' of the kind. (Others in her unit pretty clearly ducked out, realizing that at some point the sh-t was going to hit the fan and getting out of range was the most sensible thing to do.) Oscar Wilde's little immoralist adage of 'there is no sin but stupidity' has caught up to her.

Pardon her...well, politically that can only happen when her higher ups get prosecuted and/or formal responsibility can be shifted away from L. England to her superiors.

[SeekingTruth]

13. Imagine if you will....

Seymour Hersh hit on part of what follows.....

Imagine you are part of a hierarchy where people who bear no rank or name exist in a strange environment and seem to exist and move about with great mystery and seem to be almost untouchable. Now add that you are a young, part time soldier from small town America suddenly thrown into this strange world.

Everyone is telling you that this is a different war with different opponents. These opponents are less than human; they are devils who have no understanding of what true people live like. The live like dogs and vermin and must be crushed beneath our boot. Then, you are told these people hold information we need and we need to get it any way we can. Oh, and don't forget, you are told over and over again that these are the people responsible for 9/11 (now, we all know that this is not true, but many soldiers were told this over and over again). Then you are told that these are the things that work in softening up these people and don't worry about repercussions - remember, this is a different type of war.

And this is how I think people like Lyndie Englund arrived at where she did. There is no way this young private would have know how humiliating it would be for a woman to parade a Muslim around on a dog leash, point to his genitalia or have two males nude in front of each other.

[Shallah Kali]

41. Is there *any* culture that would not find that torture?

Would any man in any country think that being arrested, forced to pose nude with another man, have his privates ogled, and paraded on a dog leash was a good thing? I think not. While it is extra shaming for a Muslim male to be treated this way, any other human being would find it shameful to be abused that way.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

43. sounds better than our usual US prison torture! n/t

[Djinn]

58. she might not have known specifics

but I think most people would not find it hard to beleive that putting a dog collar on someone is humiliating, that being naked in front of strangers is humilistaing that forcing someone to perform sex acts against their will is rape and/or sexual asault.

Sorry you don't need to be an expert on middle eastern cultures or Islam or interogation or the Geneva convention to know what this was about.

I would hope that it's not only the "grunts" punished for this but that doesn't mean that the "grunts" get a free pass, or a slap on the wrist.

The connection many people seem to make with being poor and being thick is actually pretty offensive, OK you can be excused for not being well educated but to pretend that these "poor soldiers" from West Virginia (are they ALL from there BTW or is it a conveniently "poor" area) didn't realise what they were doing and why is to assume that they are completely fucking clueless.

[Gore1FL]

14. Yes -- but fopr the prisoner abuse

I don't think she should serve time by fucking everyone she came into contact with. Too much was made of that aspect, IMHO.

[sffreeways]

19. That's military law

it's very strict and the rules are very clear about inappropriate sexual behavior.

You can be punished seriously for just losing your military ID. She knows what she was doing could subject her to charges. She wasn't even supposed to be in that part of the prison when she was there.

In the civilian world you can have your sexual sunday with a cherry on top but when you are a member of the US military there are rules with severe consequences. There are standards of conduct. For example you can be charged and punished severely for adultry. She knew all of that even if the abusive treatment of the prisoners was vague to her, and she must be a total moron if it was.

[Gore1FL]

63. I understand

but it wouldn't have come out if it were not for the other issues, -- Nobody cared when Eisenhower had an affair ... I just see it as a very old double standard -- she is in enough hot water with the prisoner abuse -- In many civillian trials, they drop the extrea garbage to betetr focus on the serious stuff -- thats what I'd like to see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Geneva Cionvention

UCMJ, they are very strick in definitioon and the geneva Convention (which she violated) has been incorporated into the UCMK

She will face the music

Oh and miltiary law, she is guilty until found otherwise

[Hello_Kitty]

20. Prosecutions all around

I think it totally sucks for these enlisted people to take the fall for following orders. The superiors who issued them should be fried for it, up to and including Scumsfeld. However, I read the Hersh book and AFIK those are some sadistic little fuckers that carried out the torture. Really looked like they were getting into it, from the photos I saw. Not everyone stationed there participated. There were MPs who refused to do it and it was a soldier who had the integrity to blow the whistle on it. So I'm not buying it. The really creepy thing about England is that she was transferred b/c she got pregnant by one of the other indicted guards. How could they sexually humiliate captives and then go have sex later? Did it turn them on? Fucking sick bastards!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Again Nuremberg Standard

and yes if the system works everybody involved in the chain of command will face the music, don't count on it

[izzie]

23. I have never thoughts these kids thought this all up

All over the world, at one time, the lower rates think up the same way to treat these people? Hard to believe. She did wrong but other should go down with her. It is like the Enron thing. Martha goes to jail and the rest get aways with it.Always the same. Over see the CIA when it does not do it's job? You get put in charge. Bush has run these 4 years on a lot of second rate people. Many who lost jobs because they did things wrong and are backing in important jobs and many not voted into office by the people but working for Bush. Is it only in Am. that we let a man who could not run a business run the biggest Eco. in the world? It has been an interesting 4 years.

[bluedonkey]

24. Their redneck mentality

and their believe Iraqis were responsible for 9/11 made it easy for them to abuse those prisoners.
She wasn't suppose to be in that prison,she had no business there.
Yes,I think she should be held accountable for her action.The photos show she got real pleasure out of this!
She's a pig and I feel sorry for the child she carrying.

[The Wielding Truth]

31. I hope you have read POST "Imagine if you will..."

It is how we should try to see things as through we were that person
in that situation. She is not alone in her actions. She is not alone in her guilt.

[lawladyprof]

25. If it hadn't come to light

One of the things that irritates me beyond belief is the portrayal of this as merely abuse--somehow less than Nazi-style torture. Good grief they were only doing it for nine months or so. Imagine if it had gone unchecked by discovery. To my way of thinking it differed only in degree not in kind.

[Hubert Flottz]

74. I agree with you!

These people acted like the GESTAPO did in Nazi occupied Europe and Russia! The Political need for quick information outweighed humanity, in this case! Ask yourself, who had the most to gain politically from the inhumane mistreatment, torture and even death of these prisoners, in the effort to extract information, quickly?(by "Softening Them Up")

The liberated Iraqis were not throwing rose petals as advertised, but instead were throwing RPGs and bullets! Saddam was still on the loose! There were no WMD being rounded up as advertised! Saddam's sons and other high ranking Iraqis of great interest, were still not accounted for! The political pressure was on KKKarl and crew to extract information ASAP! The quickest way was to cheat a little! To break a few rules behind the scenes! Who would ever find out? But we did find out!

Who had the strongest motive, the DOD, or the soldiers in those prisons? It btw, was not in just the one prison, that the gross violation of international law occurred! Not just in Iraq either! I think congress needs to at least look at Generals Miller and Boykin's role in All of these cases!

The people in charge are to blame, just like the people in Europe were during WWII! The rest of the world is not fooled by the way the DoD is taking care of this, no more than we are!


BTW, welcome to DU ladylawprof

[Dogmudgeon]

26. Yes, but don't make an example of her

No one would disagree that she is responsible for her behavior. She took part in war crimes and cannot escape culpability. But it's not really about Lynndie England.

She is the ultimate "low man on the totem pole", the lowest-ranking person there, naive and poorly-educated, posed in dozens of pictures, fucked by a man (Specialist Charles Grainer) 16 years her senior who outranked her then dumped her when she got pregnant, and singled out in the stink-hungry press.

Her punishment should be modified by considering mitigating and exacerbating circumstances. That, after all, is how Justice works. When it works.

There's a lot of enlisteds and officers above her that should be first in line. Justice in the matter of Abu Ghraib shouldn't be meted out for cosmetic reasons, and Lynndie England should not be made into the sacrificial lamb for this den of weasels.

--bkl

[bowens43]

27. she should spend a long time in jail.

[kayell]

28. YES. The need to prosecute higher-ups doesn't absolve her.

[hlthe2b]

29. She should get a fair trial, including a full review of any evidence for

senior officers to have ordered England to do waht she did.

But, she must be prosecuted. A trial is where the truth should come out, including any exculpatory information for England...

[The Wielding Truth]

30. Obviously, she was following orders,but she still had right to refuse.

I believe it is part of the I can do what I want think of Rumsfeld. He and the rest of the "Little Generals", will be eventually held accountable. America cannot tolerate disregard of international law and human rights. Those days many greatly in our past. We can not allow them to flourish in our mist.

[supercrash]

32. Jeeesh...

I hope that pregnant diseased slut dies a horrible death...

Her actions put us all in danger, there is no excuse

Just remember....

THERE WAS NO BEHEADINGS TILL AFTER THE TORTURE SCANDAL BROKE.

[johnfunk]

33. Yes she should -- in Iraq. So should her commanding officers.

If this nation truly wants to "win the hearts and minds" in Iraq, the whole gang -- from the privates up to the top of the Pentagon command structure -- should be extradited and tried under Iraqi law.

I'm not holding my breath, though...

[napi21]

34. Yes she should, and so should all those associated with these activities.

I believe Sy too, but that does not mean Lyndie or those who performed the acts didn't do the wrong thing. I'm hoping that all those who are being court marshaled whill break their silence and tell the court why they did them, and under who's orders.

[sr_pacifica]

35. Oh that is bullshit

"there is no way some young soldiers from small town America knew the ways to humiliate those Iraqi prisoners in the ways that they did."
What is this image we have of "small town America"---innocent, naive? She's culpable and she looks like she's enjoying it too much in the photos to be an innocent victim.

[against all enemies]

36. Yes, but she should have access to all documents.

Lots of luck getting those from the Dark Prince and his minions.

[sweetheart]

37. no she should raise her baby

As long as she loves her baby. I'd go for a community service
sentence where she has to love her baby.

Being the worldwide face of american terrorism, is punishment enough.
... a name, like monika lewinsky, that will never ever be forgot.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

64. The baby should never know who his/her mother & father were n/t

[Misunderestimator]

38. Pardon a war crime? Would you pardon all those "innocent" Nazis too?

[knowbody0]

39. the child

was conceived in hell. i hope he or she gets the f out of dodge

[SeekingTruth]

47. Come on, that comparison is an entirely

different argument and isn't even close to what Englund has done and shouldn't even be brought up as a comparison.

[Misunderestimator]

51. Ha... Why shouldn't it be compared? Tieing someone to a leash...

stripping someone naked and humiliating them? Are you kidding? Of course it should be brought up as a comparison.

And that comparison aside, why on earth would you advocate pardoning someone who went against the Geneva Conventions? Someone who intentionally abused helpless prisoners, and posed for photographs. She is guilty. And so are any of her superiors who advocated the treatment. I would rather die than do what she did. And I would certainly rather be courtmartialed for not followed orders, if in fact she was following any.

She made a choice... and she made the wrong one. And she should be punished for it.

[SeekingTruth]

56. Because, when one thinks of Nazi behavior, one thinks

of entirely different types of human rights abuses. It's like how Blair is comparing Iraq to WWII - they are entirely different and beyond comparison. We're not talking of American soldiers shoveling Iraqis into ovens or performing experiments upon them.

The reason I do not think Englund should be prosecuted is because she is a simple pawn in all of this mess. When this is all said and done, what we will find out is that it goes much, much higher and involves many others with command rank. However, instead of them going to jail, they will instead find some obscure reprimand in their file that ends up simply ending their career advancement.

I was in the military; I know how minds are manipulated. If you have not done so, go back up and read my "imagine" post. I think that sort of coercion and manipulation existed.

I will bet that at some point many of these lower ranked soldiers were told by someone that all rules and laws were pretty much waived or to be ignored. I'm not saying that what she did is not wrong, but this story is much deeper than we know, or may ever know. And under normal circumstances, I would agree that a person should have known to walk away, but I also believe that for all of us over here, simply invoking the Geneva Convention or other provisions is much easier for us to do in the safety of our living rooms.

Someone guided these troops and I think the proof is already evident - body parts to a missing Iraqi have been found outside of Iraq. Navy SEALS are being arrested for murder. The once thought "handful" of soldiers has grown way beyond that.

And then, let's examine the environment - I have seen numerous video taped diaries of soldiers who have been told their fight in Iraq is against those responsible for 9/11. These young, impressionable soldiers are being guided in such ways that we might never know.

[Djinn]

60. so how did many soldiers/MP's know it WAS wrong

why did atleast one risk his neck to blow the whistle. Just because she didn't organise or plan doesn't mean she wasn't responsible. It's sad that sexism/classism and sexual double standards have meant that her face sticks out from her co-accused (they're men, they're don't fir the "po' white trailer trash" mould quite as easilly and they're not women who slept with more than one bloke) but it's NOT sad that she's being held accountable - ALL the other co-accused should face the same opprobrium.

[Misunderestimator]

73. And a serial killer's reasons can be traced back to abuses from their

childhood... and a parent who abuses their child can be traced back to abuses as well. It sounds as if you think soldiers are different than other human beings, and should be given some excuse for abusing prisoners. If anything, these soldiers should be held against a HIGHER standard, since they are responsible for others' lives.

Coercion and manipulation exist everywhere. I've been coerced in my life... and I chose a different path. Your argument doesn't hold water.

Also... not all Nazis shoved people into ovens or performed experiments on them... just as not all soldiers actually murdered Iraqi prisoners (as some did). And if you think the abuses these prisoners endured were not mental experiments, you are sorely mistaken.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

80. she did more than what we've seen i heard she also had gang bangs in

front of the prisoners...made the Iraqi prisoners watch her get banged by several of her buddies while the were tied up and naked( there is video of this hapopening)...she is not human!

[Fuzzy LaRue]

40. I knew people like Lyndie in...

the Army. I can pretty much believe she did do what she did because she coerced in anyway, but because she wanted to. You have to understand what these young women are like. Many were pretty much two baggers in high school or college. Got screwed when no other girls were around. The popular girls had boyfriends, these girls got screwed when no one was around and then lied about if anyone asked. Then they enlist and get sent to a male dominated enviroment where there are very few women and all of a sudden they get the kind of attention the "popular" girls got. It is amazing how bad they get passed around.

They like to be part of the group, go along with what is going on.

I also don't believe the culpability of those responsible goes very high. There are a lot of things (serious things) that happened at squad level that I never let go higher. Things at platoon level that never went any higher. The same for company level.

I can always be wrong. I am just speaking from my own personal experience.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

42. Lynndie has "Pee wee herman" syndrome

In his must-read book "You Are Going to Prison", Jim(?) Hogshire points out that Paul Reubens, aka Pee Wee Herman, was convicted on his mugshot. That famous picture of him with the sneer and the ratty mullet convinced everyone who saw it that yes, despite the fact that jerking off in a porno theater is barely a crime, the man is a dangerous pervert who deserves the maximum penalty.

Likewise, Lynndie will not be convicted for the heinous things she did, which many are doing throughout the armed forces, but for smiling and smoking a cigarette. On the one hand I think it's a miscarriage of justice; on the other, I have no respect and a personal distaste for the woman. Just look at whose child she chose to bear. I won't shed one tear if she gets a harsh sentence.

[sangh0]

44. flamebait

prosecutions are based on the law, not some individual's sense of right or wrong.

[JerseygirlCT]

45. What she did was wrong. And any small child would have known that -m

so yes, of course, she should be prosecuted.

The trick is that the prosecutions should not STOP with her. She's guilty, but it goes much further up the chain of command. And those are the guys who are less likely to be prosecuted. They absolutely should be, if this behavior is ever to be really stopped.

[drdtroit]

46. Hell yes! n/t

[captain_change]

48. Yes and more

She should be prosecuted and her
Squad Leader
Platoon Sgt/Ldr
Company Commander
Battalion Commander
Brigade Commander
Division Commander
Corp Commander
Theater Commander
Forscom Commander
Army Secretary
Secretary of Defense

And
Commander in Chief
Should be prosecuted with her

No private acts alone!!

[bvar22]

54. You are absolutely correct.

Did you see Rummy start sweating and babbling at the abuse hearings when McCain repeatedly asked him to recite The Chain of Command.

Rummy has tried to make a little spider hole to hide in by insisting that the Chain of Command was "murky" at Abu-Gahrib. If it was "murky", it was because Rummy wanted it that way. A clear chain of command is the responsibility of the Officer Corps, and not maintaining a clear chain of command is a court martial offense.

[left is right]

49. yes prosecute fully; no pardon

however, I hope she will take her superiors down with her. If she exposes the corruption already bup the line, I would support the idea of her being assigned to other prison jobs besides breaking rocks.

[autorank]

50. Poetic Justice

If found guilty by a jury of her peers, she should have a long sentence guarding * and Cheney with full permission to perform any of her 'tricks' as needed. They could make it a reality TV show with * and Cheney whining like babies in the promo's for "this week's hi jinx on Stupid White Men in Chains!"

Seriously, or more seriously, I think SeekingTruth has a point. These guards DID NOT THINK THIS CRAP UP. This is heavy duty DBSM. Somebody gave Englund and her buddies a play book that was well organized. This is the equivalent of Rummy re-inventing the military. The twisted maestro of this torture plan decided to ignore everything know about interrogation. Following orders is, in this case, not an excuse. However, the war itself is illegal and the people giving the orders are the true bad guys.

[Disturbed]

52. It is Pathetic!!!

Rumsfailed Admitted to Violating Geneva Convention

Rumsfailed admitted in public on TV that when CIA Director Tenet requested that an Iraqi prisoner be sent to a secret Afghan/US Prison that Rumsfailed did so. After four months a DOD Attorney stated that this was an illegal act. Rumsfailed then ordered that this prisoner be sent back to Abu Graihib but the prisoner was purposefully not listed at that location, also an illegal act.

Rumfailed has commited at least two violations of the Geneva Convention; thereby also violations of The Constitution of the USA. Recently it has been found out that even more detainees were "ghost detainees". The fact that Rumsfailed and Tenet have not been charged speaks volumes. If Congress wishes to garner any respect they should move forward with Rep. Rangle's Impeachment Declaration of Rumsfailed and also proscecute Ex. CIA Tenet.

Does the US, Govt., Congress, and the Justice Dept no longer abide by the Geneva Convention or the Constitution of the USA?

It is obvious that this is the case!.

[autorank]

59. Agree totally!

But remember, as Kerry pointed out, this is the 'excuse' administration. Unfortunately, those in power determine the limits of justice. Until Bush is chased out of town (I live near DC) and the congress flips, we've got to put up with these war criminals. Maybe the European Union will get it's act together and call this one as everyone with eyes can see!

[Bo]

53. For simply posing in photos? No

She wasnt killing anyone

[Djinn]

61. so you'd be against prosecuting

someone who posed in a photo with your naked, bound and hooded daughter. You'd want someone who smiled in such a photo (and pointed to your daughters genitals) to be let off because they didn't "kill" your child?

How 'bout if that person made your daughter perform sex acts on another unwilling victim and photographed those...still think that perv would not deserve prosecution?

[Skittles]

55. she is a disgrace to women, to the military, and to all Americans

absolutely YES she should be prosecuted - but definitely, the higher-ups need to go down with her.

I was in the military and I can absolutely say there is no way in HELL I could be "encouraged" to do the sickening stuff she did - that woman has hatred inside her and she is in dire need of therapy - along with a jail sentence.

[Kimber Scott]

57. Yes, and she should start pointing fingers up the chain, as well.

nt

[walldude]

62. All we saw were the pictures they wanted us to see

I've heard there are much worse pictures, Hersch himself claims he has pictures of Iraqi children being raped and tortured in front of their parents. While I feel sorry for this little twit it looked to me like she was enjoying what she was doing, you know, "blowing off a little steam". If those were American prisoners and Iraqi guards and soldiers we'd be bombing the hell out of them again and screaming for justice. If she has any brains at all (which I doubt) she'd make a deal and spill the beans on the whole lot of them... But we all know she will be the scapegoat just like Lynch was the propaganda tool...

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

65. She should lose the kid

Anyone who would abuse prisoners would abuse a child. She should never be allowed to see her child, and her child and its adopters should never, ever know who the real parents were.

[SeekingTruth]

66. Another cultural angle that I think proves these

soldiers were encouraged to act they way they did by those more knowledgeable is in the type of behavior they participated in.

Contrast what they did - had males posing nude with other males, naked males in a pyramid, males simulating oral sex and masturbation, pointing at their genitalia, the dog leash, underpants on the head and so on - to that of the types of abuse and humiliation that goes on in America, especially American prisons.

What sort of things are practiced here? It is not nearly as humiliating for two men to be naked in front of each other or in front of women, stacked in a pyramid nude, or to simulate masturbation. Here in America our tactics include beatings, anal and oral rape and murder. (I'm not saying these things didn't happen in Iraq, only that the things typically found in America weren't necessarily the tactic of choice in Iraq).

My point is that there was more of cultural aspect to the tactics used in Iraq. Those tactics had to originate somewhere.

Until this broke I never realized that it was more humiliating for two Muslim males to be naked in front of each other than that of a woman - I thought it would be the other way around.

[ForrestGump]

67. Oh, yeah

Along with many others. Throw the book at them.

[Qanisqineq]

68. absolutely yes (n/t)

[enki23]

69. of course she should. along with her superiors.

they are all culpable in some degree, all the way up to the commander in chief. the question for each is, simply, how culpable?

[Forkboy]

70. Yes,and she should have to watch Gigli on a perpetual loop

as punishment.

[JSJ]

71. no- we must 'support the troops'...dontcha know nothin'? nt

[ogradda]

72. i don't

under orders she may have been and probably was, but i saw the look on her face in some of those pictures. she was ENJOYING herself.:puke:

[sage1]

75. Only...

only if all the men she served with and under are also prosecuted and sentenced. Why single out the woman? (Well, isn't that what happend to Martha Stewart?)
This past week's "Law and Order" was about Abu Gharib, and a woman soldier who had participated in the atrocities..

[leesa]

76. Why should she be pardoned? That is not appropriate

The appropriate thing is to prosecute the chain of command that allowed her to behave the way she chose to behave.

[Chelsea Patriot]

77. The Bitch should do everyone a favor and, die in childbirth!

[SeekingTruth]

78. What Sentence Should She Get?

Okay, for the follow up - the overwhelming majority who have added comments believe Englund should be prosecuted. If found guilty, what should be her sentence? I believe I read in the papers that she is eligible for up to 30 years in prison.

So far, about the only incidents I am aware of that she participated in were what was depicted in the photos.

Comments?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Her sentence should be served in Abu Graib regardless of length

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. ABSOLUTELY!!!!...she is scum i hope she rots in prison she did much more

than what we've been aloud to see...there are videos of her having group sex with her buddies while tied up inmates are made/forsed to watch