I find some of you "liberals" disturbing.

[Gothic Sponge]

I find it disturbing that some "liberals" get all bent out of shape when someone on DU criticizes Kerry. The man is a political figure, not a god! Yes, i'm voting for him! However, if he wins, i will not be a blind cheerleader for all that is Kerry! (that's what the repugs do!) Whomever is in office should always be held accountable!

IMO our job will be to fight off false right-wing attacks on Kerry, but also to hold his feet to the fire when necessary!

[Maestro]

1. Who criticized you?

Have a link?

[0007]

23. Nice audio, very well done, is that your voice Gothic_Sponge?

Sounds just like junior. Thanks for hipping me to the hip man!

[JohnLocke]

2. You can criticize Kerry after the election (nt).

[neuvocat]

4. ...uh...what...?

Kerry and Bush can be criticized as public figures regardless. Let's not be like the Freepers who tell everyone to shut up in order to preserve american rights.

[Jackie97]

35. As it is.....

I can't speak for other young people, I often feel like older people are shoving BS down my throat when they make Kerry out to be the perfect man to vote for. What? I know he's not as liberal as he should be. They know it. Why are they talking bull to me about it?

Tell potential voters about the good things that Kerry's about, and explain that he really is the lesser of the two evils. Voters can handle the truth.

[AP]

82. How can someone complain about not being able to freely criticize someone

and then be so upset about being criticized?

Because nobody is stopping you from criticizing Kerry. (Did your post get deleted?)

What you're complaining about is that you didn't like being criticized after you criticized Kerry.

If you think it's OK to criticize Kerry, then you ought to think it's OK to be criticized.

[The Magistrate]

85. That, My Friend, Is An Unending Mystery Of The Place

Another is the proclaimation by some the expression of a view differing from their own is a stifling of their expression.

The fact is that people who express critical views must expect criticism in return. There is no good whatever served, at this point, by directing criticism from the left at Sen. Kerry. The object of the exercise is to evict from office the criminals of the '00 Coup.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[cornermouse]

5. What ever happened to freedom of speech?

[progressivebydesign]

43. This is a privately owned message board...

.. you start a board, you have your free speech. Voila!!!

[cornermouse]

46. I have voted democratic since Reagan and currently plan

to vote for Kerry.

Are you saying that I have no right to say that I disagree with some of Kerry's positions? Go ahead and say it...

[Hutzpa]

48. What are some of the position you disagree with? n/t

[Ducks In A Row]

19. same thought

the people critizing now are just helping bush, just like nader.

the day it's in the bag, the gloves can come off.

[Darranar]

24. So criticizing Kerry for being too soft on Bush is "helping Bush"? n/t

[dolo amber]

42. Yes, by all means, let us never speak the truth

until it's politically expedient to do so... :eyes:

[TexasSissy]

55. True, true, true.

[Darranar]

21. Why should people wait?

If he deserves criticism, he should get it.

[TexasSissy]

56. Depends on what you call critcism. If you're offering helpful hints

for winning campaign strategy, that's good, I think. If you're criticising his positions on issues, which aren't going to change, that's not helpful. That's not what someone does when they want someone to win. That's what the opposition does.

If you want to try and change his positions after he wins, that's fair.

[mitchtv]

68. you are totally correct ,except add one word

Elsewhwere. No one here is interested.We get enough of it on tv.

[Cheswick2.0]

40. actually we can criticize him before

hopefully people will keep it constructive.

[TexasSissy]

54. Yes, let's criticize AFTER the election. We all want to win, right?

And there's plenty of criticism coming from the right, right now, right?

[NWHarkness]

3. That's fine BUT

It's not "necessary" to criticize Kerry now. It serves no productive purpose. Let's win the election first.

[mzmolly]

6. I don't think anyone here is a "blind cheerleader" but let's tone down

the "harsh" critique until after November. We don't need to give any ammo to the R's.

I have criticism for Kerry now and again and I expect disagreement/discourse when I do.

I am in Kerry's corner from today through November 2nd, but he better be in OUR corner as well and keep up the good fight, or he'll be hearin from me.

[FlemingsGhost]

7. Hoo-boy... Prepare to be disturbed further.

A post that is practically an engraved invitation.

You have a point, but it likely won't matter.

Good luck.

[Kanary]

11. The "cheerleaders" here need no "engraved invitation".....

They love to misplace their anxiety and fear and anger onto their fellow Dems.

Quite an interesting phenomenon, actually.

Kanary

[FlemingsGhost]

20. Projection. We all do it.

Projection: noun.

"In psychiatry, the unconscious act or process of ascribing to others one's own ideas or impulses, especially when when such ideas or impulses are considered undesirable."

Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged. 2nd edition, 1977 William Collins + World Publishing Co., Inc.

-----------------------------

All judgement is projection. We see in others, what we recognize in ourselves. There is a lot of it about. No one is immune.

[Kanary]

22. Y'know, I'm well aware of the meaning of the word.

:eyes:

However, it's not my main M.O.

Nor is it with the people I know.

It *IS* with the RW.

Just a clue.

Use it or not.

As you wish.

Kanary

[MADem]

8. Right now

...we need to be better cheerleaders than the weecowboy was at Phillips Andover. You can hold his feet to the fire, if you so desire, AFTER Nov 2. For now, unity is the key to regime change. If you want to complain about John, do not be surprised if you don't get much in the way of support for a carp-fest.

IMHO.

He's my candidate, and I'm supporting him a thousand percent.

[VotefurKerry]

9. Stuff it

We need Kerry to WIN first.

Then we can hold is feet to the fire.

Unlike the current boob in charge, Kerry will listen and change when he is wrong.

[DrWeird]

10. Let's wait until he's in office until we hold him accountable.

I'll be plenty critical when he gets elected.

Attacking him at this point in the game is just helping Bush.

[VotefurKerry]

12. Amen

n/t

[FlemingsGhost]

36. LOL. My moderate Republican friends said that about Bush.

Verbatim.

They knew Bush wasn't their dream candidate, but what was important was, "getting a Republican in the Whitehouse."

Ironic, huh?

[Hutzpa]

49. Moderate!!!! Didn't know you're a moderate Democrats....

no wonder.

peer pressure, the type of friends we keep

[GregW]

13. Excuse me if you think I give a rat's ass

:eyes:

[immoderate]

14. You should say what's on your mind and...

Let the Games Begin!

--IMM

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. but criticisms of kerry are meaningless right now

the primaries are over. we went over all this stuff during the primaries. He is not in office and has not yet had to be accountable for actions taken as a president.

[Kipepeo]

16. agreed

I plan on holding his feet to the fire come November 3rd, after he's elected.

But right now and for the next 30 days I'm leveling my criticisms at Bush, where they are most needed and deserved.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. actually i plan on dealing with him practically past jan

somethings he will be able to do something he wont. its life and a republican congress.

[Darranar]

26. How are they "meaningless"?

Kerry has a lot of power right now. He can say something, and when he does he will be heard. Not many people can say that, looking at the current state of the corporate media.

Since Kerry is Bush's major opponent, he can help define the issues of this election. He can help define the debate this country is experiencing. There is no reason that people should not criticize him for failing to do so or failing to do so in the right way.

[Gothic Sponge]

18. Okay, Just for the record, i didn't criticize Kerry!

I'm defending those on DU that do. Example: Not everyone feels he is running the most effective campaign, but does that mean when someone tries to express their opinion, they should be told to stuff it, or called a Freeper? Shouldn't we be more opening minded, and not adopt the Republican mob mentality?

[Orangepeel]

25. defending them from what? criticism?

people shouldn't be called freepers. It is my understanding that doing so is against the rules of this board. They (or you) should hit the alert link.

As for being told to stuff it? well, if it comes across as a personal attack, that's also against the rules. If it just someone expressing their OWN opinion... well, it's a public message board which is, as an entity, is supporting John Kerry. Get over it.

[Hutzpa]

51. Gothic.....stop Phishing!!! OEM

[TexasSissy]

57. Crticisms about campaign strategy are okay, IMO. I haven't seen

too many criticisms of that. Usually, someone criticizes Kerry's positions on issues. He can't change those, even if he would want to, so such criticisms are pointless and only serve in the same way the opponent's criticisms serve...to hurt Kerry's chances. Also, some wish one of the other Dem. candidates were the nominee. That's not helpful either. Kerry is the nominee.

But criticisms about whether Kerry should speak up more or whatever are okay. Carville has done it. Most of us do that, and it's because we're trying to help.

[sweetheart]

27. The ABB coalition lasts until inauguration...

... then its left-family-catfight free for all. :-)

Then i'll scream about ending the drugs war yesterday and
cutting the number of foreign bases by at least 50% and
ending corporate personhood.

Until then... i'm all smiles and doting looks on Senator Kerry.

He's gonna' kick juniors ass this year... i can feel it in my blood.

[noiretextatique]

28. how does criticism of kerry at DU "help" bush?

is someone going to decide to vote for bush because kerry is criticized here?!?! i find that hard to believe myself, but since it seems to be conventional wisdom, i'm guessing there is some actual wisdom in that convention.
nothing here will change my vote.

[Hutzpa]

52. Noiretblu...you've been here long enough

to know there are flies buzzing for shit, when they are looking they come in all shapes or form. You should know that.

Long before Kerry became famous (this is during the Dem primaries) to you and me , he was seen as a flip-flop, now who is running away with it, is it us or them, and I suppose who ever started that from this forum regrets that now. So :think:

[noiretextatique]

61. how does any of this "help" bush?

if anyone here is so demoralized by something she reads here as to vote for bush (?!?!)...well, i think you've been around long enough to now they'd have to be incredibly stupid. i have more confidence in voters than most, i suppose, even DU voters who may be exposed to *gasp* criticism of kerry :scared:
i hear what you all are saying...but you're grossly overstating your case.

[TexasSissy]

58. Freepers & the news media read DU. You know that.

[noiretextatique]

60. how does that help bush?

that's just SILLY.

[TexasSissy]

79. Headlines: "Kerry's Base Disillusioned and Falling Apart!"

"While Bush's Base Remains Strong!"

[noiretextatique]

80. the headlines have been against us for a long time

you don't seem to have much faith in the voters of your party.
and frankly...i think you give DU way too much credit in terms of its ability to create headlines. there are plenty of more reliable ways to sway the election...disenfranchisement comes to mind. at least kerry is paying attention to that this time.
i'm not worried abotu the voters, but i am worried about the votes being counted.

[Redleg]

29. So you are saying that you should be able to criticize Kerry without being

criticized for criticizing Kerry?

[noiretextatique]

30. LMAO...that's good one

:7

[buddhamama]

31. i think that's precisely what he's saying

Funny!

[bvar22]

32. Criticism has helped Kerry!

Compare the Kerry of today with the muddled centrist... taking the high road.... if I just explain it enough, then they will understand it Kerry of pre-September.

You WILL SEE a difference. Criticism helped make these changes!
I'm glad we have a candidate that doesn't fear criticism (a sign of maturity).

Everybody Vote for Kerry/Edwards,
get someone else to vote Kerry/Edwards,
and help a republican to stay home!
It's important!

NOTE: This post was edited to remove issues oriented strong criticisms of Kerry's stands on <deleted>
<deleted>
<deleted>
<deleted>
<deleted>
<deleted>
<deleted>
<deleted>

These will wait until Nov. 3rd. (give him a day to celebrate, then to the streets!)

[bobthedrummer]

33. I'm an independent, now is not the time to criticize John Kerry

there was plenty of that in the primaries, my guy (Dennis Kucinich) has endorsed him-as have all the other Dems.

We must get out the vote and get John Kerry elected-then we can piss and moan--his campaign and support is truly growing since the debate.

Get it?

[Jackie97]

34. I completely agree.

If Kerry wins, I plan on spending the next four years giving him hell for not doing what I want. :) People often think I advocate against Bush's policies because I hate Bush. No, I hate those stupid policies. I'll hate them just as much if Kerry does them. That's how every American should be. I'm trying to help him get elected because he's the best option to Bush. He also has a lot of good plans regarding healthcare, education, etc.

At the same time, I don't like his flip flopping about the war in Iraq. The conservatives are right on this one. He is flip flopping because he doesn't want to tick voters off. If he becomes president, I expect him to work hard for to get that coalition against terrorism that he talks about. I also expect him to eventually pull the troops out of Iraq.

[VOX]

37. This is Democratic Underground. Kerry is the Democratic candidate...

and nobody's perfect.

However, this is neither the time nor the place to be critical of Kerry. He is our candidate, he has been selected through a fair and exacting process, and he represents our best -- our **only** -- hope of defeating * and restoring some sanity to our government.

But to achieve that, he must be elected first. And being critical of Kerry now does not help accomplish that end.

Sure, once he's elected, then he's subject to all kinds of scrutiny and criticism.

But for now, he has my unflagging support.

[stavka]

38. I agree with you....

The best thing I can say about Kerry is he's not Bush, he should win, so he has my vote and some meager financial support.

I will not forget he voted for the war, no matter what kind of spin he puts on the issue.

[Hutzpa]

53. 95% of Americans at the time Believe

Iraq was responsible for the attack at WTC, those 95% where mislead by the media, brainwashed into believing that Saddam has WMD up to this point alot of Americans still believe that, I don't think taking Kerry's vote for War personal is your answer, hell he is in the same boat as you where after 9/11.

[The Straight Story]

39. I think it will go beyond now, and keep going on well into his Presidency

Why? Because people afraid to criticize him now won't want to do it later because Kerry will be running for election for a second term, it will be 4 years "don't help the RW by talking negative about kerry".

That is not to say all will be like that of course, but I can see that argument being made. The RW will attack like crazy, so if we do it on some things it may be seen as aiding and abetting the enemy.

Will we continue to see photos here of kids mangled in Iraq if Kerry does not pull the troops out day 1? Will other things like this magically cease?

I'll let kerry slide until after the election and he is office, but then he is fair game on everything from iraq to bbv, environment, and all the way down the line. A lot of people have busted their asses to get him in - I hope we bust our butts keeping him doing the job we hired him to do.

[ikojo]

41. I agree...when Clinton won in 1992, I think many on the left

were so happy to be rid of Bush that they failed to hold Clinton accountable. Clinton took advantage of that and governed conservatively, even taking on Republican causes such as NAFTA and Welfare Reform. This angered many on the left and they felt betrayed.

I do hope people hold Kerry accountable. Just today I was talking with someone and commented that if Kerry does win I hope he rescinds Bush's changes to the laws governing overtime. Of course he should but you never know. The person with whom I was talking said that he would owe organized labor big so he may do that, I said EVERY Democrat has a debt to working people but look at what Clinton did with NAFTA.

[progressivebydesign]

44. What's the POINT of criticizing our candidate??

That's what I don't understand. Sometimes, after being here since 2001, I find a lot of people just like to post things to be hip and controversial.

He's our candidate, and MOST of us really, really care for John Kerry and John Edwards. It would be like walking into our houses and criticizing our family members.

If you have intelligent, constructive criticism, then.. please share it with the Kerry campaign. But really.. what is the point of bashing our nominee? This is DEMOCRATIC Underground.

[pa28]

45. Nice song. Who says Bush is never honest! n/t

[flaminbats]

47. I get bent out of shape when you expect some of us DUers not to!!

Kerry and Edwards may not be political gods, but neither are we. Isn't it the heart and soul of liberalism that the party which gains power from the incumbents must be held just as accountable?

It isn't liberalism that you find disturbing, only the Kerry yea sayers!

If Kerry has not withdrawn most of our troops from Iraq by the third year of his administration, then I will not vote to re-elect him. At a minimum Kerry needs to repel Bush's tax cuts to pay for War expenses of the Bush years. And to win my vote again in 2008, Kerry must pass what he has promised to do on heath care reform and sign it into law.

[Hutzpa]

50. I get it......this is a moderate Democrats...

you folks are responsible for the position we find ourselves in right now. When will you stop selling us to the other side.

LIEberman et al.

You guys are the same one that sold the flip-flop over to the republicans, now you're fishing for more well not this time, we are on your asses. Its smoking gun baby, you spit we ask you to clean it.

In the words of the present moron

"FOOL ME ONCE SHAME, FOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON YOU

[T Town Jake]

59. Want to criticize Kerry? This isn't the place for it...

...especially at this late, critical stage.
However, if you're that bent on expressing disapproval of the Democratic candidate, I have heard talk of a place where such critiques are warmly embraced...
Here, I'll even provide a handy link: www.FreeRepublic.com

[noiretextatique]

62. so...let me get this straight

anyone who critcizes kerry is a freeper?! you have learned a lot from them.

[mitchtv]

64. I don't think that was the sentiment

It has ben decided here, however that this is not the place to criticize our candidate.And I think you know that.

[noiretextatique]

67. please...

if kerry makes some gaffe...will you all just close your eyes and cover your eyes...and hum or something?
if he deserves criticism, he should be criticized...especially here.

[mitchtv]

70. yada yada yada

I'm sorry, but so much of it sounds just like RW talking points. Yes, some of it is legit-less of it is usefull. Maybe some constructive criticism as you suggest is ok, as we all have a better way to say or do something. But it should be constructive, if it isn't, it belongs at another site, til 11/03

[noiretextatique]

73. we know there are provacatuers

who do nothing but parrot RW talking points...nothing new. they are usually tombstoned, if that's all they post.
other people may post something because they are ill-informed, and those posts help to educate...or at least the responses do.
i'm glad that someone in this thread understands that some criticism is actually constructive and useful...and probably won't make anyone here (or anywhere else) suddenly change their minds and vote for bush. i still say that notion is ridiculous....it's as ridiculous now as it is before every election.

[Spider Jerusalem]

63. Typical humans strive for group conformity.

This is not a "conservative" trait, nor a "liberal" one; it is a HUMAN trait (and one of the worst things abnout our fucked-up species of large-brained monkeys).

[mitchtv]

69. striving for Victory here

I don't know about you.
Conformity was never my strong suit.

[WLKjr]

65. Who pissed in your wheaties this morning????

[JohnKleeb]

66. Do you have classes where people diss Kerry?

or are you on the ground doing what you can? Some of us come home from a day at work, or a day doing stuff for the campaign, we're tired of hearing criticsm of Kerry for stupid things and we're easily irriated when we have to hear our own party members and supporters criticize him.

[Zhade]

71. Just wait until he's in office - you ain't seen nothin' yet.

It'll be very interesting to see how this place explodes once Kerry can actually be criticized for the wrong positions he does hold (sorry, guys, they exist, and once he's prez you'll be hearing about them) without those concerned with those positions being accused of "voting for b*sh" or endangering the election.

It's going to be brutal, I fear.

It'll be even worse if b*sh successfully steals the election.

[mike_c]

72. herd mentality....

A real "personality cult" seems to have taken control on DU of late. It didn't used to be this way-- liberals posting here once found ISSUES more important than POLITICIANS more often than not.

IF Kerry does not meet the expectations of the left after the election, I expect many of the same people opposing criticism today to do so even more vociferously as they look forward to 2008. If Kerry does a poor job, how many of the yay-sayers of today will willingly throw him over for a republican candidate, or even for a Green one? Remember the "Gray Davis effect," in which an unpopular democratic governor was evicted in an overwhelmingly democratic state. I think it's rather disengenuous to suggest that if it's inappropriate to criticize Kerry's positions on important issues today, that it will be okay after the election. I just don't see it happening. I think it's a ruse by the moderates who simply want the left to shut up and go away.

[noiretextatique]

74. it happens before every election...like clockwork

it will only get worse as the election nears. i won't be posting here much then.

[mike_c]

75. I've cut way back too....

DU has in many respects become the evil twin of FR.

[Cat Atomic]

86. I agree with you.

There do seem to be alot of people who want the more liberal members of the party to just shut up and vote for their idols.

[Johnny 99]

76. Absolutely

Problem is, there is a sizeable majority here who are utterly, completely dedicated to Kerry and worship him as nearly a god, and cannot stand to hear anything remotely negative said about him.

I don't think there should be anything wrong with offering a critique of something he said, or how the campaign is run, provided that it is constructive somehow. But even do that, and suddenly you're a disruptor who should be banned.

And for those who think that there are people here "crusing for dirt" on Kerry, yeah, I'm sure there are, but it's not like this is the chief research website for the Repbulican party.

[Pepperbelly]

77. But I find other sorts of "liberals" just as puzzling.

Here we are in the middle of a hotly, HOTLY contested Presidential election, one whose outcome is far from assured, and you want to piss and moan about people chastising you for posting criticism of the candidate?

Give me a break. While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, mine is that people who criticize their own candidate in the middle of an election are not people who understand the nature of the fight. Further, they are probably not people who would be useful in a fight.

If you can't pull together NOW, when could you EVER pull with people who don't agree with every whit and tittle you utter?

[x84722]

78. I guess it's because of the election.

I guess it's because of the election.

A vote against Kerry is a vote for Bush.

Scary.

[fob]

81. You're certainly free to criticize Kerry all you want, but you have to

realize at this time John Kerry is the primary representatitve of the Democratic Party. So don't be too surprised when you post something on DEMOCRATICunderground if others take it personally. The time to air grievances was during the primaries when the face of the party was being decided. Now is the time to put differences aside (not AWAY) and get our candidates elected. After that job is done there is still 3 months before taking office to discuss issues, and 4 years to make sure promises are kept.

[BiggJawn]

83. Can we wait UNTIL the victory parties are over...

THEN "hold his toes to the fire"? (Hey, I used that line just this morning!)

[The Minus World]

84. Suckers for Punishment

I agree. The dynamism of the democratic party is its strongest suit, in my opinion. If we criticize only the opposition, and fail to criticize our own party, we run the risk of becoming another FreeRepublic.

Many republicans see liberal brainstorming as a sign of weakness: "Hey, they don't even support their own candidate whole-heartedly!" I'd venture to say that the conservative allergy to self-criticism will be their downfall.

That being said, Kerry is far from perfect. However, his campaign is being run strategically. Much to the chagrin of many DU'ers, the media controls what we see and hear about Kerry, and if he comes out with a scathing flurry of condemnations against Bush (calling him a "liar"), however orgiastic it may be for us, he'll suffer the wrath of a media looking for raw liberal meat to dice up into incriminating sound-bytes.

We must postpone a fleeting pleasure in order to afford ourselves a greater one in the future.

[eridani]

87. Good point about 'allergy to self-criticism'

Last week we saw the results of Bush spending his entire presidency insulated from criticism--he fell as flat as someone catching a bad bug after having lived in a germ-free environment for years.

I think that the ongoing criticisms of Kerry made him much stronger in the debate.