Why is this used as an insult?

[cally]

I've seen this many times on DU and used in other contexts. So, we're supposed to be liberals and accept others sexuality. So why is this an insult??

Used on DU:

"F"-himself in the arse!

Yes I understand the physical meaning, but why is it an insult? Is it an insult to gay men, to heterosexual couples who have anal sex, just why is it an insult?

Another frequent one is to say that someone is down on their knees. Umm, OK. Why is that an insult?? I've heard this insult many times.

I think by using these types of 'insults' we are also implying that some sexual pleasures are degrading to the partner. I don't believe that as long as it's consensual, do you?

[cheezus]

1. because people are insulted by it

so you're really asking the wrong question

[cally]

2. So why in our culture is this an insult?

and why do DUers use it or accept its use?

[jdj]

66. Puritanism.

Non-reproductive sex is a sin.

Old subconscious cultural restraints die hard.

[DrWeird]

3. Where else would a man fuck himself?

OK, I suppose auto-fellation wouldn't be out of the question, but it doesn't have a nice ring to it (no pun intended).

Btw, telling somebody to "go fuck themselves" transcends all cultures and times. You find it scrawled on the walls of ancient greek outhouses, and painted on the walls of aboriginal caves. It's part of the human condition.

[TahitiNut]

14. When I was in college, it was the ear.

I suppose a nostril would do, as well. :shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

35. There once was a man from Nantucket...

:D

[HEyHEY]

60. And rather entertaining

[NYCGirl]

4. Lenny Bruce used to say that "Fuck You" shouldn't be used as a pejorative,

since "fucking" is such a wonderful, life-affirming activity. He suggested that a better insult would be "Unfuck You", meaning may you never ever again feel the pleasure and satisfaction of fucking.

Lenny was a sage.

[disgruntled_goat]

9. haha thats great

I'm gonna start using the un-****.
thanks for the wisdom referral :)

[NYCGirl]

11. Lenny Bruce was a prophet.

You're quite welcome.

[hiphopnation]

21. I think George Carlin picked up on that meme

when he did his "Take old movies and replace the word "kill" with the word "fuck" and see what a new meaning they take on...'OK sheriff, we're gonna fuck ya now. But we're gonna fuck ya slow'...'Mad Fucker, still on the loose!...stop me before I fuck again...'" God Bless Lenny. He's got a new boxset out!!

[NYCGirl]

23. Amen.

That bit sounds a little like Lenny's "Let me take your kids to a porno movie" bit, where he apologizes to the kids for all the sex and loving, saying, "This isn't as good as Psycho, with the stabbing the all the blood down the drain!"

[Selwynn]

36. And frankly, I think "Go unfuck yourself" sounds even better as a

negative... :)

[lightbulb]

5. It's all about context

When these acts are performed for consensual pleasure they are not degrading. When they are performed either in an attempt to improve one's standing with someone, or non-consensually (which I suppose can be strictly defined as sexual assault), they are quite degrading. At least I think that's what the difference is.

[Goldmund]

6. You're right, technically

All of these insults have bigotted origins.

But if you were to cleanse your language from all words and phrases that have origins you don't agree with, you'd be left with a verbal capacity of George Dubya.

Words never mean anything by themselves. It's all about how you use them.

[Catherine Vincent]

7. Cheney could better answer your question.

heehee!

[noiretextatique]

8. the insult is being equated with a woman

is it not?

[Kanary]

10. Exactly. And those are the most popular insults at DU

[FizzFuzz]

37. yep dat be's the truth....

misogyny gets such a free ride. Geez, even in our local progressive alternative paper, a film reviewer habitually used the most outrageous, gratuitous woman bashing in his reviews. Even though women (including me) frequently wrote to complain, they never did apologize. And when he left the paper, the editor wrote a long farewell article shedding tears for the lonely space the departure left in his heart. (sarcasm mine) Oh yeah, the same guy(film reviewer) did a half page article on the evils of racism and by inference, how virtuous he was for being personally evolved beyond such a benighted state. *snort*

on edit...the reviewer did not use fuck off or get on one's knees insults, I better add. I went a little bit off topic, but my point is that women are the social group that you can use to unload your rage, hate, contempt on, and rarely do voices raised against such discrimination receive serious consideration. Particularly if the dissenting voices are female.

[noiretextatique]

45. oh lighten up, would ya? *sarcasm on*

:7 just kidding. i agree with your assessment :thumbsup:
here's something from zora neale hurston's "their eyes were watching god"...with one word deleted...that came to mind when i read your post.

"De woman is de mule uh de world so fur as Ah can see."

of course she's referring specifically to black women, but if you read the entire passage...it applies to many.

http://www.longpauses.com/their_eyes_were.htm

[FizzFuzz]

46. holy crap my stomach did a high jump and nearly bumped my uvula

when I first saw that header! And coming from you, noiretblu, whom I always read and often say, "hat dawgies I wish I said that!!" :D ;)

Yes thank you for that ZNH quote; I'm not particularly up on literature unfortunately but I have read a number of ZNH's and Toni Morrison's works. I even remember that quote now you mention it, because I remember reading it and thinking "ayup".

Boy am I relieved you were just *ahem* twisting my panties. :hi:

[noiretextatique]

49. LOL...sorry about that little twist

:evilgrin: was just parroting some of the parrots.
that ZH passage is very powerful...i will have to keep it handy for future discussions.

ahhh shucks...a compliement from someone i admire...cool! :hi:

[FizzFuzz]

50. aww gee, now I'm the one blushing

thanks! (she said, ducking her head and grinning happily)
here, have a nice Ithaca Apricot Wheat :toast:

[Forkboy]

12. Latent homophobia

[Elbowroom]

13. calm down

"go jump in a lake" is also a put down

I love jumping in lakes.

[cally]

15. Fuck you

Let's see if that's removed. Think about what the words mean and what they mean about our culture and the insults we accept as normal.

[sonicx]

19. that won't be removed

it would be if you were trying to insult him for real. :)

[DrWeird]

24. Alright, I give up. What's the difference?

"Go jump in a lake," and "fuck (off)" are the same thing.

Sure, one would be considered vulgar in polite society (ie anal-retentive prudes), but they're still essentially the same.

[sr_pacifica]

27. I'm thinking "go jump in a lake" may actually imply

you want someone to drown themselves. So, the differences between "fuck off" and "go jump in a lake" are telling someone to fuck or maybe "jerk off" and "go kill yourself." So the point of the discussion is why is "jerking off" considered an insult? It's obvious why telling someone to drown him or herself would be.

[DrWeird]

32. So "go jump in a lake" is a death threat.

Well, that makes about as much sense as "go fuck yourself" is homophobic and sexist.

[jdj]

67. I was told growing up that "go jump in a lake" is the fundie polite

way of saying "go to hell" because it comes from "go jump in the lake of fire", then got changed to 'a' lake, to shroud the meaning.

:shrug: honest, that's what they told me.

[sonicx]

39. "jerking off"

maybe it implies that the person is too much of a loser to get someone, so they have to masturbate for pleasure. :)

[Xithras]

57. That's exactly it n/t

[maveric]

16. Lets not PC ourselves into a ridiculous light.

Some people are too damn sensitive and go out of their way to be offended.

[sonicx]

17. "Fuck himself in the arse!" is too wordy and blatant

i prefer plain old 'fuck em'

or maybe 'fuck em in the ear'

"He can go fuck himself" or "go fuck yourself" is ok too.

[sr_pacifica]

28. Hey, those are my favorites too

But I get the point of the original poster. I think habit is too hard to break.

[MADem]

18. I would think

..that telling someone to go fuck themselves suggests that's the best they can do...that they cannot find anyone else to share the moment, as it were. It's a crude way of saying that you may as well take care of yourself, because you are so unloveable that no one wants to be anywhere near you.

It's common language, at the end of the day, delivered to make a sharp, shocking point. Once upon a time, if you said damn, bitch, or hell, you'd get the bar of soap. Now, they say that on TV.

What sort of things will be swears in the future? "Why, you, you SMOKER!!!!" or perhaps "You excessive consumer of FOSSIL FUELS!!!"

We've come a long way from scoundrel, cur and cad, I suppose!

[plcdude]

20. you guys are getting me so

hot.

[hiphopnation]

22. LOL!!

I was just thinking the same thing! Is this the right forum for this thread??

[Lerkfish]

25. my best answer is that I don't know...

the only thing I can come up with is the whole alpha male dominance thing, where the less dominant males had to bow down in subservience.

er....I mean, looking for the root origins of it, not the specific verbage.

People do horrible things, use abusive language, you name it. Why? dunno, unless its some sort of way to make themselves feel more dominant.

probably doesn't help you at all in your quest, but that's the best answer I got.

[sr_pacifica]

26. You're actually asking people to think deeply about what they say?

Good for you. I think most people just pick up phrases and use them knowing generally that they are insults, but not thinking about the "why." And as you point out, the "why" is often based on certain values that, I would say, many liberal Democrats actually do not hold.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. *sigh*.... "Identity politics" will be the death of the left, I swear.

Try bringing this subject up to a rural voter and see how far you get.

[sr_pacifica]

31. I think it is an interesting topic

But probably only interesting to intellectuals who enjoy thinking about the meaning, use, and derivations of words and what that says about the values of a society.

[RandomKoolzip]

33. "We were too busy analyzing the pictures being projected on the wall

to notice that the wall itself had been sold." - Naomi Klein, "No Logo"

[sr_pacifica]

30. Another thought comes to mind

The actual letters that make up the word "fuck" are hard and rather satisfying to say when you are really pissed off. It's kind of a release of tension.

[knowbody0]

34. it starts with sex and ends with death

so fuck me

[lakemonster11]

70. I think you're right.

I'm not someone who swears much, but when I get upset (or have too much to drink) I start saying "fuck" all over the place. It's a release of negative energy.

[porphyrian]

38. Easy explanation.

People who use this reference consider being ass-fucked to be a painful or uncomfortable thing, possibly because of the inference of homosexuality. However, in using it, they probably don't mean it even a fraction as literally as you have.

[Disturbed]

40. I was baned from another site for...

bringing up the topic of why men call women cunts. That word means the same thing as pussy but the context is meant as extremely demeaning. In that discussion a women explaine the origin of that word. Guys call each other pussies but do women ever call each other that?

The entire situation centers around putting women down. Same thing with the "girly-man" crap. It means that women are weak. Remember when calling women the weaker sex was ok? I don't believe that women are weaker. In fact, women have a higher threshhold for pain. If men had to birth children the human species would die out.

[Cronus Protagonist]

42. Now you're saying men are weak

That's just as bad - the problem is on both sides, apparently. If men bore children, there would be fewer children, but not because men are pain intolerant and I have no doubt the human race would continue as planned.

http://www.factcheck.com - recommended by Dick Cheney



"So I don't worry about, and people shouldn't
worry about a draft. . . I think we're in good
shape, I really do. And, if not, we'll -- I'll address
the nation. But I don't see any need to right now."
- G. W. Bush (Source: The Whitehouse)

[DrWeird]

43. All right, but people use the word "dick" all the time.

It's an insult to call somebody genitalia. So why would male genitalia be appropriate but not female genitalia? Seems like the controversy over "The Vagina Monologues." It's like people are frightened by words that mean female genitalia.

I can see how saying "you're such a pussy" in the context of "you're such a coward" is obviously sexist, but in the context "cunt" is often used it's synonymous with "dick" "jerk" "asshole" "bastard" etc. and says nothing about women (at least anymore then "dick" says about men or "asshole" says about people with assholes).

[noiretextatique]

48. i think it has more to do with the prevalence of it

and who is saying it. for example, do women use "dick" as an insult as often as men use "pussy" or "cunt" as an insult? or do men use "dick" to insult each other?
are women using "dick" to insult as often as men use "pussy" to insult men?

i suppose there's no real way to verify it, but i do believe many women here believe it's men are using these insults more than women here.
as i said...i don't know if that's true, but that assumption has been fueling this particular fire for as long as i've been here.

[DrWeird]

51. Depends on where you're at.

I myself hear the word "dick" get used by men and women often and consistently towards mostly men. I haven't got a problem with it and don't see why anybody else should either.

"Pussy" I've only heard by men against other men, but in a blatantly sexist manner. Perhaps strangely, when I do hear the word "cunt" it's used by both men and women against both men and women as a synonym for "jerk." Albeit I hear it rarely. Apparently in the UK its very common in the UK and is synonymous with "dick." Interesting how language has such radically different meanings. Frankly, I wish people would pay less attention to what words people use and what they're actually saying.

[noiretextatique]

53. i think it's hard for some to get past the language

especially when it's used as code or shorthand. what is someone who is saying "so and so is a pussy" saying...besides that? perhaps it's more of statement about men and masculinity than anything else.

at DU, i do believe it's men who use this shorthand most often, but as i mentioned, i don't know if i can prove it. certainly that's been the suspicion for some time, hence the frequency of posts at sexism at DU.

in the meantime...someone has exposed yet another of cheney's lies about the "freedom" of women in afghanistan. yep...they are free to be detained by the police because their families might kill them for not going through with arranged marriages. they are free to be given "viginity tests" by the police, and if they don't pass, they are free to be jailed as fornicators *sigh*

what a world.

[DrWeird]

56. Hang on now...

Like I said, people should pay attention to what's being said, not the words. If somebody's using it as a "code" or "shorthand" for something sexist or otherwise then that's what should be paid attention to. Likewise, one can say plenty of sexist things without using the word "cunt" or "bitch." It's really not that hard for an adult human being to tell what context somebody is using those words in.

As for DU, when I do know the gender of the poster, it seems pretty even for the word "dick." As for "cunt" or "pussy", those words are banned so one can never tell.

"in the meantime...someone has exposed yet another of cheney's lies about the "freedom" of women in afghanistan. yep...they are free to be detained by the police because their families might kill them for not going through with arranged marriages. they are free to be given "viginity tests" by the police, and if they don't pass, they are free to be jailed as fornicators *sigh" "

well, that's a bit off topic, but hardly unsurprising.

[noiretextatique]

58. context is important

but so is at least attempting not to offend your listener...that tends to shut down communication. for example...i probably wouldn't listen be listening to the context if the speaker used nigger every five seconds in conversation with me.
i'd probably address his choice of words, vs. whatever it is he was trying to say.
i really like some of what tom metzger has to say, but his views on race are tend to color my overall impression of him.

likewise with the use of other words. if someone always refers to women as "bitches and hoes" or constantly characterizes them are liars (which happened in a thread here)...i would think that person has a real problem with women, and whatever else he had to say would fall on deaf ears. he might be a genius with a vast wealth of knowledge to share, but his delivery would likely turn off some potential listeners.

and honestly...i do think some are more guilty of this than others...i don't think it's all equal. i also think racism is more tolerated here than i think it should be. you and i have joined forces in many battles here on that front.
i have changed my opinion on what should and should be tolerated here because i've seen a lot of learning coming out of the big battles.
no one grows by listening only to their own thoughts.

in this impersonal medium, it's a lot easier to misread context than in person.
and of course...people are more likely to say things in annonymity that they might not in a face to face conversation.

a little self-regulation would probably do wonders...all around.
i know these discussions make me more conscious of the language i use...if it didn't i would have been banned a long time ago :7

peace.

[noiretextatique]

59. context is important

but so is at least attempting not to offend your listener...that tends to shut down communication. for example...i probably wouldn't listen be listening to the context if the speaker used nigger every five seconds in conversation with me.
i'd probably address his choice of words, vs. whatever it is he was trying to say.
i really like some of what tom metzger has to say, but his views on race are tend to color my overall impression of him.

likewise with the use of other words. if someone always refers to women as "bitches and hoes" or constantly characterizes them are liars (which happened in a thread here)...i would think that person has a real problem with women, and whatever else he had to say would fall on deaf ears. he might be a genius with a vast wealth of knowledge to share, but his delivery would likely turn off some potential listeners.

and honestly...i do think some are more guilty of this than others...i don't think it's all equal. i also think racism is more tolerated here than i think it should be. you and i have joined forces in many battles here on that front.
i have changed my opinion on what should and should be tolerated here because i've seen a lot of learning coming out of the big battles.
no one grows by listening only to their own thoughts.

in this impersonal medium, it's a lot easier to misread context than in person.
and of course...people are more likely to say things in annonymity that they might not in a face to face conversation.

a little self-regulation would probably do wonders...all around.
i know these discussions make me more conscious of the language i use...if it didn't i would have been banned a long time ago :7

peace.

[DrWeird]

63. Bah, I've never been one to mince words.

I'd never hold my tongue because somebody didn't like vulgarity. Fuck 'em. That said I'd never try say something that would offend somebody or a third party based on race, sex, etc.

".i probably wouldn't listen be listening to the context if the speaker used nigger every five seconds in conversation with me."

Agreed. But again, context is important. There are contexts where "nigger' "bitch" and "ho" are, shall we say for the lack of a better word, "appropriate." Say, for example, a Richard Pryor monologue, or an NWA track. In an internet message board like this, sure people can get context screwed up sometimes, but in most real words situations its pretty easy to tell.

That said, I can't think of any context where telling somebody to "go fuck themselves" is in anyway sexist or homophobic, and anybody who's arguing so is being rather facetious.

[noiretextatique]

64. i don't mince words either

and of course richard pryor's most eloquent monologue using *nigger* was all about why he wouldn't use that word anymore...wouldn't you agree? it (among others things) changed my mind about the word.
of course as a poet, i'm all for artistic license. as to the merits of some artistic expression...i'm all for critiquing them as well.

i would not consider a commentary on the prevalence of the use of "bitches and hoes" in the same way i would the gratuitous use of the phrase, for titilation and profit. intent is perhaps more important than context.

context and intent in real life...yeah, it may be easier to read, but perhaps even harder to get people to own up to, without the judgement of others. in real life, people have the option of lying about what they said or meant...it's harder to do that online where words have stark life of their own, and where the anonymity of the medium provides a shield for speaking out, against racism, for example. i didn't realize what a taboo that still is until i started posting here, yet it explains so much about some of my real-life experiences...when people knew what was happening, yet didn't speak against it.

go fuck yourself...well, i have agree on this. however, i do understand the context from which this whole thing started, and i know cally's intent is honorable.

dr. weird...you're one of my favorite people here. thanks for the discussion...i think i need to :smoke: now.

[cally]

65. Wow...how did this discussion turn into this? but thanks

Karen for saying that I had an honorable intent, which I do. I never wanted to suggest that 'go fuck yourself' was homophobic or sexist. My whole point was that some insults we use often imply sexual activities that most enjoy. It implies something about all of us when we use these acts as insults and then accept these same sexual activities as normal.

[DrWeird]

68. I didn't think that's what you wanted...

although it sort of evolved into that given some of the responses.

Now, usually when people say "go fuck yourself in the arse" they are sort of implying something physiologically impossible. I have seen many things since the advention of the internet, and I can say with some degree of certainty that this is not as physiologically impossible as we would all like to believe.

:smoke:

That said, it's not the kind of sexual activity that most enjoy. Unless everybody's doing stuff behind my back that I have know idea about.

Now if somebody were saying "go have anal sex" as some kind of insult, then yes that would bring up all kinds of questions about why its an insult. Because yes, that's a sexual activity that most enjoy and is normal. Even though everybody and their grandmother pretends that it's only for homosexual men, so stop staying that. As it were.

[porphyrian]

71. Well, I see the point...

...but I'm just not on the bandwagon that believes that a phrase is always demeaning to any particular group, despite its origin. Like us, language evolves over time, and so does its meaning. Take the "n-word," for example. While the former victims of the word are still sensitive about its use by whites, they have been co-opting it through popular culture for most of my lifetime. Now, it just doesn't mean the same thing it once did. Also, there's a matter of scale. Saying that someone should be ass-fucked is not always hate-speech against gays, and calling men pussies is not always a derogatory portrayal of women - it's meant to piss off the target of the term by playing on that man's insecurities about being weak, which society teaches us is not preferable to be. Even in the cases where these are meant as hate speech, they don't carry the same weight as, say, cunt, from your example.

I just don't believe in policing peoples' verbal expression in what is supposed to be the free-est nation in the world. If someone is really bothered by another's speech, they should lead by example through their own right to free speech, not attempt to censor the person with whom they disagree.

[Xithras]

55. Getting a** f***** IS a painful and uncomfortable thing

The first few times anyway, unless your partner is REALLY good :evilgrin:

[Cronus Protagonist]

41. You're a cocksucker

is one of the perjorative terms used here and elsewhere. Personally, I'm proud of that.

http://www.factcheck.com - recommended by Dick Cheney



"So I don't worry about, and people shouldn't
worry about a draft. . . I think we're in good
shape, I really do. And, if not, we'll -- I'll address
the nation. But I don't see any need to right now."
- G. W. Bush (Source: The Whitehouse)

[cally]

62. Why is that an insult, but it is

So many women and gay men are cocksuckers. OK. Where's the insult? :shrug:

[BiggJawn]

44. Ever see "The Shawshank Redemption"?

'nuff sed.

Next you'll be insisting that it's "demeaning to people who love giving Head" to refer to what Cokie Roberts does on NPR as "Giving Shrubya Aural Sex"....

Guess "Golden showers" or "Dirty Sanchezes" or even "Hot Karls" are beyond commentary if they're consensual, right?
And as a "Good Liberal", I can't feel that there are just SOME things in the sexual pantheon that are degrading or disgusting?

[cally]

47. I have no idea what your point is

Can you be more specific and not use the sexual references?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TrustingDog]

54. jeebers that's a good question... I need a few centuries to think about it

but i Know what you mean...

mexed missages.

[ogradda]

61. beats me

they've been using it at least since the 70's that i know of not sure when people started saying it

[nonconformist]

69. "down on their knees"

Thinking about this phrase in the context I believe you're referring to, I've never seen this as anything that has to do with sex. I always considered it to mean weak, defeated, punched in the gut, taken down. As in "Kerry brought Bush to his knees in that debate!" Nothing sexual even enters my mind, and I never thought about it that way until you mentioned it.

As far as "fuck himself in the ass" goes, I think that might be a case of being over-the-top PC. Just like saying "fuck you" or even "fuck me" isn't looked at generally as having anything to do with sex unless you USE it in that context. If someone grabs the back of your hair and says, "fuck me" it takes on a very different meaning than if your car is towed and you stand in the street and utter "fuck me".

[H2O Man]

72. If you want a serious answer,

I'd suggest that you do a study of primate behavior, including some of the "signals" that even some types of male monkeys exhibit to send a clear message to other male monkeys. I think that Carl Sagan wrote a brief but informative chapter on this in one of his wonderful books. It may be the Dragons of Eden. Anyhow, the two things that you mention (correctly) as "insults" are part and parcel of our aggressive primate behavior .... which doesn't make it okay, but puts it into an easily understood context.

[Bridget Burke]

73. The insult refers to anal intercourse not as ....

A source of mutual pleasure, but as an act of dominance. Think of the prison context. It has to do with rape and humiliation, not an act of love (or even lust) between two consenting adults.