Need to ask a smart Christian something

[Sterling]

A friend has asked me this:
Just wondering do you know why he spoke of the Cloak and why he said to go two miles instead of one?

About this:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so?

end
I think it is in keeping with the theme of turn the other cheek and love thy nieghbor? Am I wrong?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. This is from "The Sermon on The Mount"...

Also known as "The Beatitudes" to the Catholics. This is where Jesus really laid down how it is all supposed to be done.

Needless to say, it runs a bit counter to how Christianity is generally practiced today. Certain forces would like to make Christianity into something that gives approval to their "station in life". Like royalty.

Think "Manifest Destiny".

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Not a Christian

but I've studied these texts a bit. The idea behind them is, of course, to go beyond your limited concepts of 'good' and 'bad', to look for the Good that is in all people. This is a very tough spiritual practice, and involves a certain amount of trust in the One Jesus called 'Father'.

As for 'love your enemies'-Lincoln put an American spin on this concept when he said he had found the best way to destroy his enemies was to make them his friends. Personally, I've found that praying for people you strongly dislike can help loosen the ties of hatred and transmute them to, at the very least, understanding.

Hope this helps.

[BeFree]

3. My thoughts

He was saying not to be revengeful. If someone screws you, don't get angry with them, and don't waste your time plotting a payback.

In the end, after this short little life span, all things will be repaired. Don't waste your precious time here fighting the inevitable.

Love is all you need.

[Sterling]

5. My friend is a RW. I sent him the LP

in response to some really lame hate speech email spam to point out his lord did not think bombing the shit out of people and stealing their oil was OK. Or abusing prisoners. I am waiting for him to respond with why he thinks that bit I posted was important. I am wondering how he thinks it helps his argument. Any ideas?

[BeHereNow]

13. if you want to stop your friend in his tracks-

Point him to 1 John 4.
ask him to find ONE record of bush meeting the test
of discernment. It does not exist.
Trust me, it does not exist.

BHN

[Sterling]

17. What is that test?

Sounds interesting.

[BeHereNow]

24. 1 John 4

4:2 and 4:3- there is NO documentation of Bush meeting these
points of discernment, but PLENTY in the following verses
to confirm that he is acting in the spirit of the anti-christ.
Not that he IS the anti-christ; I don't mean to say that at all,
but OF the AC? NO doubt in my mind if I weigh him against
scripture.
BHN

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are
gone out into the world.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that
confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is
come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now
already is it in the world.

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome
them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the
world.

1 John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the
world, and the world heareth them.

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he
that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of
truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God;
and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us,
because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that
we might live through him.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he
loved us, and sent his Son the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love
one another.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one
another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us,
because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father
sent the Son the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God,
God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that
God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love
dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have
boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in
this world.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out
fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made
perfect in love.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is
a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how
can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he
who loveth God love his brother also.

[BeFree]

15. LP?

Ok....the Lords Prayer... how's that go again?

Other than Christ's teachings, I don't think too much about the rest of the good book, though I have read it.

If anyone uses Christ's teachings trying to excuse war and torture, they ceratinly don't understand what Christ was trying to teach. So, you've got a problem right there.

I have found that going back to square on with these types, if you have the time, is elememtary. Otherwise, just let them know you don't think Christ was ever for war, and let 'em go.

[Sterling]

16. With some of these people I think it is the last hope

If they are going to try to use religion to do bad things I want to at least remind them what they are supposed to believe in.

[Pepperbelly]

4. Matthew is my favorite Gospel ...

Be ye not as the hypocrites who pray on the street corners and in the synagogues so that man may see them and that is their reward.

[demosincebirth]

6. The poor, the meek, the merciful, and the peacemakers are

what should be important to all christians. That Jesus, was one smart Dude.

[Sterling]

8. I agree.

I tend to think I am a better Christian than a lot of people that wear it on their sleave even though I don't call myself one. I find I look to his message as a guide more than a lot of people who are all on about being a christian all the time.

[polmaven]

31. Sterling, I DO call myself a Christian.

I am a STRONG Christian, as a matter of fact I am the Lay Leader at my church.

I believe you are exactly right about the entire bible, both Hebrew (known as the Old Testament) and Christian (New Testament).

The words of God did not fall out of the sky and onto the parchment. They were written by men. The gospels and other books in the Christian bible were written many years after Jesus' death, also by men. Both English versions are translations of translations of translations.

The Bible was written to be a guide. It was not meant to be taken literally.

If you want to, you can "prove" almost anything you want to by pointing to something in the bible. There is a chapter in Psalms....I have forgotten which one...that starts out saying "There is no God". It goes on to explain the statement, but, taken out of context...well, you see what I mean.

Anyway, sorry to go on so long. You know, some of my friends are agnostics or atheist, and most are more moral than people like those in this administration will ever be, including John Ashcroft.

[LanternWaste]

7. "I'm not a smart man, Jenny"

"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also"

In contemporary terms, after the Plaintiff wins your coat in a lawsuit (regardless of how unjust the suit was in the first place), show charity-- charity above and beyond the call of duty and give him your cloak. In other words, right after he took something from you, you turn right around and *give* him something of equal or higher value in addition to what he just stole/won from you.

"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."

At the time this was written, a Roman citizen could lawfully compel a non-Citizen to carry his baggage for one mile. For that one mile, the non-citizen, by law *had* to comply. The verse compels the non-citizen (Christians in this case, because that was the audience the epistle was written to) to, by his own will and by his own compulsion, offer to carry the baggage an additional mile.

I think you're correct. I think it's a civil/moral extension/addendum to the "turn the other cheek" adage. You are illustrating and showing compassion and gift-love for those who scorn you and may even call you an enemy.

As an aside, I'm not a smart guy... I simply heard this possible explanation recently and am passing it on.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. I agree wholeheartedly. It's a call to go farther, do more -m

than just turning the other cheek.

Radical idea.

[gratuitous]

29. This is traditional exegesis

There's also a slightly more subversive interpretation that can be put on Jesus' teaching about the cloak and the mile. This was acted out during an insight session a couple of years ago at the Church of the Brethren Annual Conference.

In Jesus' time, the court system was pretty much reserved for the wealthy and well-to-do. Someone who would sue for the clothes off your back (in this interpretation) would be a particularly hard-hearted person who would seek to deprive someone of the necessities of existence. Jesus' counsel is therefore meant to embarrass the hard-hearted person: You have all this, and you want my coat as well? Why stop there? Here, have my cloak as well.

In the insight session skit, the young man playing the defendant began stripping off his clothes down to a pair of polka-dot boxers. It was pretty funny, and illustrated well the point of shaming the greedy plaintiff.

The "go an extra mile" advice has a similarly subversive twist. While a soldier could compel a citizen to carry his gear for a mile, like many other things in Jewish life at that time, it was highly regimented and prescribed. A soldier who abused the privilege of compelling a citizen could get into hot water with his commander. Judea was a very fractious area of the Roman Empire, and the Romans were careful not to piss off the citizenry unduly. By going a second mile with a soldier, the citizen turned the power play on its head, essentially putting the soldier in peril to discipline.

At the skit, the soldier was rough with the conscript, hurrying him along, berating him for lollygagging, etc. They get to the milepost, and the soldier tells him to drop the gear. Instead, the conscript keeps carrying the load, cheerfully remarking on what a nice day it is, why don't we walk two miles? The soldier finally winds up yanking his gear away from the man and scurrying off before his commander gets wind of what happened.

These can be interpreted as creative ways of reversing a power structure, identifying an authority over the oppressor (whether its public opinion, a commanding officer, or whatever), and making a play to expose the oppressor to that authority.

Like many Biblical passages, there's more here than first meets the eye.

[sangh0]

30. That was excellent

I'm using it.

[polmaven]

32. When a man strikes you on the one cheek

turn unto him also the other cheek.

In the culture of the time, it was considered improper, or unclean, to use the left hand for anything except hygiene, and the right hand was NOT used for hygiene. It was also considered improper to strike anyone lower than oneself with the palm of the hand, so the lower class could be struck only with a backhand.

By "turning the other cheek" a person was forcing the striker to use either the palm of his hand or the left hand.

It was not meant that a person should be a doormat. It was meant to shame the person hitting you.

[janx]

34. Yep. I'm so glad you pointed this out.

I couldn't remember all of the particulars, but a very dear friend of mine who studied theology and divinity explained it the same way. It was a very creative and rebellious thing to do at the time, and the passage is so often misinterpreted.

Fascinating!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. The cultures of the area, then as now, were revenge and "honor" based

and Jesus was trying to shock his listeners into thinking beyond the practices of their society to think about more constructive ways of dealing with wrong.

[Indiana_Dem]

10. I'm not really a smart Christian but to me the verse means

to give more to those who seek to devour/destroy you. That perplexes and confuses the enemy. Love conquers all. The greatest of these is love. Love covers a multitude of sins. Love your enemies. He who seeks his own life shall lose it and he who loses his own life shall save it. The bible says these things. So when he mentioned giving your cloak and going that extra mile it means to love and give. It's the only thing to win them them over because it's a language they might not understand and be drawn to. That's how I interpret it.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

14. I clearly said smart Christians

I don't see why opening up a honest discussion about Jesus and his words has to attract this kind of stuff.

I think it is key that good Christians become WAY more vocal to drown out the kind of idiocy that has become synonymous with the Church these days. Damn, Jesus deserves a lot better if you ask me.

[Indiana_Dem]

18. I haven't researched it enough to know an answer.

Obviously he won't fund it. I am aware that non-federally funded research is permitted. The argument is that most breakthroughs come from federally funded research and the money is needed in order to do the research. I think there are several variables that come into play. I have some tin-foil hat theories as to why Bush won't fund it but I won't state that here. I think the "when does life begin" argument is a facade for more underlying issues.

One suggestion--next time you should create your own thread for a new subject like this if you have questions. You might get some more answers than those who just look at this thread. And it's also off the subject and many people don't appreciate changing the subject in a thread...just a suggestion! :)

[Sterling]

20. Or RW anti left hate speech.

That usually goes over great here, not.

[Indiana_Dem]

22. lol. I was trying to be polite in case this

might be a youngster since they were talking about mom letting them online or something. You're right! It doesn't bode well to talk badly about leftists on a Democratic website!

[camero]

26. When are Bushies going to read the beatitudes?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[w4rma]

27. Wtf? Go look up what Michael J. Fox or Christopher Reeve have to say

about that. They are both experts on this. I'm sure a Google search will bring up a good deal of what they have said they observed.

Don't think about it, just go do it and READ and LISTEN to them both, luvgrrrl. THEN come back and post on this subject.

Look up what Ronald Reagan Jr. has to say about your subject also.

[Red State Rebel]

19. You are correct as far as I can tell...

Basically, give 200% of what is asked of you. It's a way of showing Gods love thru your response to people. In the new testament it says "Let your light shine before men that they might see your good deeds and thus praise your father in heaven". It's the same principle.

[Indiana_Dem]

21. Yes and as far as I can tell,

I don't see too many people in the world who praise the Father in heaven when they think of Bush. That is my litmus test for leaders.

Here is a neat article I found on the Dean for America website one night when i was looking for flyers. It explains why a Christian should not vote for Bush:

http://dfa.bmgbiz.net/evangelical.html

(Sorry to get off track--just reminded me of this article and Bush)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Good article to give to fundamentalists

It speaks their language.

[sangh0]

28. I just want to note that it's not just about enemies

The Golden Rule is to "do unto others, as you would have other do unto you". Unfortunately, the "unto" is often interpreted negatively, as in "don't do" something bad (ex. spiteful, vengeful, etc) to someone because you wouldn't want it done to you.

IMO, Jesus meant for all of us to treat others as would would want others to treat us. This means more than just not bothering people, but also giving of oneself, which is what love produces, and what produces love.

You don't love someone who doesn't bother you and who you don't bother with. You love the people do help you, or who need your help, like your children.

[camero]

23. The first shall be last and the last shall be first

Meaning those who are looked at last on earth are first in heaven. The bottom of society is the top in heaven and the top of society is the last in heaven.

Other verse: The stone that which the builder has rejected shall be made the head of the corner.

[ladybugg33]

33. Go to extreme lengths to keep peace between you and your adversary

That's what it says to me.