Remember: Watergate took two years to unravel

[WilliamPitt]

and these boys are way more ruthless than Nixon's crew was. Dig in and keep the faith and keep swinging. This one will take a while.

[GOPisEvil]

1. Let's hope we don't have to have a 2nd Bush term, though...

...otherwise a Watergate-type ending would be appropriate for this bunch of crooks.

[corarose]

2. One big difference

No one died.
Nixon was horrible but Bush he takes the cake.
The Bush Crime Cabal is screwed.

[WilliamPitt]

14. No one died?

Kissinger deliberately screwed the '68 peace talks to guarantee Nixon's election. That came to millions more dead in Southeast Asia, including thousands of American boys.

[corarose]

18. I didn't know that

I was a baby at the time. Your right this is bigger then Watergate but Jr should be charged with war crimes.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Read 'The Trial of Henry Kissinger'

by Chris Hitchens. Hitchens is a putz, but the book is damned good.

[corarose]

34. Thanks for suggesting the book by Hitchens

I never would have picked up a book by that drunk but since you suggested it I am going to go to the library and check it out. I would buy the book but I don't want to support his alcohol problem.

[Brian Sweat]

26. What evidence is there that Kissinger deliberately

scuttled the 1968 peace talks?

[jpgray]

29. Then there's Chile, secret bombings in Cambodia

I don't have anything on the '68 peace talks, but Kissinger is not to be respected.

[niceypoo]

42. Kissinger has been outed in this country

or does it just seem so because I read here every day?

[Cassandra]

25. Not true that no one died

Nixon's subversion of the 1968 peace talks caused the war to be extended several years. Tens of thousands of Americans died, as well as hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians, when Nixon widened the war.

[Clete]

28. Also, Kissinger and Nixon

were responsible for overthrowing the then Democratic government of Chile, killing the elected President Allende because he was a communist (a legal party in Chile then), in favor of a bloody dictatorship that took many lives.

[a_random_joel]

3. *ahem*

and these boys are way more ruthless than Nixon's crew was

I thought this WAS Nixon's crew...

[jpgray]

6. LOL, that is true

Isn't Kissinger at the head of some appointed body?

[Az]

7. Kissinger

was initially appointed to head the 9/11 investigation. IIRC he was removed or excused himself soon after.

[phillybri]

9. Ah, yes. The day satire died.....

:eyes:

[corarose]

21. Jr brought Kissinger in didn't he

Plus, the biggest vilan of them all Bush Sr. The Bush family is the most corrupt family in the world.
People die when they speak out against them and write books about them.

[jpgray]

4. More ruthless, but not as smart

Funny to say that, but it's true.

[Walt Starr]

5. Yep, I predict this one ends in one of two possible ways

1) The scandal keeps ramping up and up. Bush's poll numbers go down and down until he's defeated in the 2004 election (no impeachment because it would take too long).

2) They do not give up power. Another "terrorist attack occurs late in 2004" Martial law is declared. Elections are postponed indefinitely. That's it, we're a dictatorship.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

8. Yup, no impeachment

election or nothing

The scary thing is, there is no chance for re-election.

Another full year of this?

Bill

[opihimoimoi]

16. But try as they might, all the kings men and all the kings horses

could not put Nose Miner together again.

He is toast: Credibility gone, Respect gone, honor gone, truthfullness gone, leadership gone, Sanity, never had it.

Instead, what do we get:

Stonewalling, "I am not a LIAR!"

In addition, arrogance, deciet, destractions, duplicity, devious plots, absense of caring for the Nation and the worlds people not to mention the future for OUR children.

and miserable death/injuries for our troops.

come, we go drink already

[LiberalLibra]

17. Walt: If it turns out to be #2 then I predict the neo cons will.....

....spiral this country into a major depression (along the lines of 1929 or probably worse) and in the end they and their party will be ruined for a long time to come.

[JNelson6563]

10. This is true but

this is the instant information age. That may help to expediate things.

Julie

[jpgray]

11. Yep (n/t)

.

[LiberalLibra]

12. WillPitt: You hit it on the head!! Unravalling this could well be....

....into the next administration before it is all revealed. So much has gone on behind the scenes that we haven't even got a clue about yet, plus we have to wait for the next "Deep Throat" to emerge. I don't think we are there yet but we are getting close but it will be another 6 months to a year before this whole story starts taking on a life of its own. But it has started folks so just hang in there and as Betty Davis was famous for saying, (paraphrasing here) "get those seat belts snapped on tight because this is going to be a bumpy ride". People will have careers and their names will be made and ruined during all this.

[Raven]

13. Ultimately, Nixon knew when to quit...

Archie Cox resigned and so did Richardson... no such courage on the Bush team (except maybe Tommy Franks who told the truth this week.) I think that nothing but the economy will do this guy in and even then we will not believe the (un)limits of his ambition. This man has enough rotten, unprincipled people in place that I think there will be martial law, mass arrests, missing people and lies, lies and more lies. Bush was absolutely unrepentent today when he talked about the State of the Union Speech. In his mind, he knows best and the end justifies the means... about said so. This is a stupid, lazy man with alot of power... just the most horrible of combinations.

[Q]

19. The Big Difference: Nixon didn't 'own' the media...

...and watergate provided PHYSICAL evidence of a crime. Also...more than a few Republicans turned on him and demanded that he resign.

- It was the free press that turned the tables on Nixon. We no longer have a free press and the Republican party is under the control of right wing zealots. This leaves the loyal Democratic opposition as the remaining force to push this along and seek justice.

[jpgray]

24. Actually, the media started getting lazy around then

It was a tiny group of people in the media that really got Nixon, and it took an incredibly long time for it to happen at that.

[Ishoutandscream]

15. Right, Will, let's hope the people vote this bastard out

That in itself will be MOST GRATIFYING!

[David Zephyr]

22. I Had Just Shared the Same Thought With A Friend Last Night

Thanks for making this point, William.

And, the nation had to be dragged kicking and screaming to face the truth of Watergate.

Also, the Republican Party in those days was not as hostile as they are today and there was no right wing monopoly on radio listening audience or Fox Network either.

[Az]

23. This is just a continuation of the battle begun with Nixon

Notice that the intellectual capacity of the repuke candidates has been distressingly low for the so called leader of the free world ever since Nixon was removed. This is indicitive of the right deciding that in the modern age the pres is just a figurehead that must be controled from behind the scenes. Thus the RNC will not allow a candidate to be nominated that will take the party off track. Anyone who shows the slightest capability of independent thought is removed from consideration.

When Nixon was struck down the right made two descisions. Never again would they lose control of the repukes. And two they would pay the Dems back. Thus they set about remaking the right. They eventually struck upon bringing the religious right into the fold. This gave them the moral highground they needed to balance their image of corporate greed and the party of the rich.

With Reagan they discovered that although their economic plans did not work as they theorised (trickle down) it did debilitate the lefts ability to create new programs. By creating crippling debt they could create a situation where no new programs could find funding. Thus Reagan became the touchstone for the Repuk Revolution.

They now had the left cornered and now the vengence would commence. When Clinton was elected it was a suprise. Thus they decided he would be the sacrificial Dem to pay for Nixon being felled. This is why the hunt for Clinton was so vicious. They were going to bring this man down and stain the Dems in doing so. The gloves were off. It was not enough to fend off the policies of the left. The game had shifted to something far more vicious. They had to destroy the man as Nixon was destroyed.

The repukes have changed the nature of the game. No longer is it policies that are brought down. It is the people. The repukes have made it personal. The visciousness with which they pursued Clinton has created the way the battle will continue. Bush is going to be torn down. The two party system is in conflict. The sides are irreconcilable.

[Pillowbiter]

27. hmm

"The two party system is in conflict. The sides are irreconcilable."

Wow...that's civil war talk...

Which would you rather have, a dictatorship where your family is safe-ish as long as they remain as apathetic as they currently are, or a potential conflict where some of your family is destined to die in the name of principal?

I hope this isn't a decision I will even have to be pondering after 2004.

PB

[DrBB]

38. Yes--given the number of Nixon proteges in the *admin

...his could be CALLED the "payback for Nixon" administration. The failure of Viet Nam and redeeming that or overturning it in some way is an important part of the background for the neo-cons and Iraqnam. Some are neo-cons essentially because of Viet Nam.

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. And he got re-elected by a landslide despite the scandal.

More than 30 years later, I still cannot understand that.

[JohnKleeb]

31. and the man he was running against had lots of honor

Good old McGovern my daddy's first vote. If Shrub wins in a landslide in 2004 I dunno what to say I wont leave I'd rather resist.

[Q]

32. It will take a long time...

Translation: the democratic Party has no intention to bring Bush* down. The few brave Dems left in the party will be characerized as 'radicals' and made scapegoats.

- How many more years...how many more times will our party ignore the wise words and warnings of those like Sen Byrd? How many human beings have to be slaughtered? How many rights need to be taken away? When exactly do 'we' wake up and force justice down Bush's* throat?

- "It will take a long time' is not an answer. It's an excuse.

[TruthIsAll]

35. The scandal did not break until AFTER his reelection..in Spring 1973

Watergate was June 17, 1972...But at the time it was just a 3rd rate burglary. No one touched it.

Meanwhile, the dirty tricks of Don Segretti and his student Karl Rove caused havoc for the Democrats. Hunphrey and Muskie campaigns were attacked and disrupted mercilessly ...

[Vitruvius]

36. Nixon was re-elected by a landslide because the corporate media

royally trashed McGovern. This was the same corporate media that absolutely supported the Vietnam war for years and years and years.

[DancingBear]

33. Right again, Will

It most probably will take a while, but the parallels are striking. "I am not a crook" - Nixon; "I am not a liar" - Bush. This is why it is so important not to become discouraged if the wheels turn more slowly than we'd like. I remember myself at 19, literally screamining into the television "How can these stupid bastards not see!" But I remember the infamous "Silent Majority", and I remember that Nixon still held a fairly decent approval rating (almost) until he stepped on the helicopter.

The tide is just now coming in, and for those of us who remember how it played out before, well, we're just waiting. We're seeing the first cracks in the dam, but it still holds a hell of a lot of water. Our eyes are now watching, and our ears are cocked and at the ready. We know enough to treasure the small victories, for we know where they and will lead. With each member of the SilentMajority'04 who wonders "can it be happening again" we nod. Score one, we say to ourselves, and the process of taking back the country moves yet another inch forward.

For those of us old enough to remember, we watch politicians who we (at times) scream at for their lack of courage begin to set the wheels in motion. "A" leads to "B", which leads to "C". Watch Levin, watch Kerry. Remember Inouye, and Hollings, for they have seen this movie before. Recall and set into memory the things that have been asked of Rumsfeld (and Powell, and Rice, when the times comes), and watch as their words come back to haunt . We do not yet know who will be the Haldeman, the Ehrlichman, or the Dean of today, but they are out there. Where will the "plumbers" come from, and who will play Rosemary Woods?

Nixon was indeed a crook, but not stupid. Bush is both. He can no longer be protected by his inner circle - he must now (or soon) speak for himself. We all know how disasterous that will be for those who depend on him to move their agenda, but he has no choice. He WILL be exposed. Brick by lying brick, the house will be built. It will take time, but it will be one hell of a beautiful house when it's done.

It may run into '04 - it may not. We have the advantage now of the Internet, and instantaneous fact checking. Nothing will get by, and as our legions grow all the Limbaughs and Hannitys and O'Reillys of this world will not stop the message. Truth is powerful, and it's playing for our side from now on. Keep the faith, baby - keep the faith.

"A Change Is Gonna Come"

[diamond14]

41. the internet will make all the difference...Watergate simmered for

a long time because NOBODY could get the word out...it was a couple of young reporters that did all the footwork, and propelled their careers to fame and fortune...and that COULD happen today...

nixon had plenty of blood on his hands...but there was no internet photos of his wars, instant digital satallite transmissions...it took weeks to get photo film out of Vietnam, developed and onto TV, which was for some, still Black and White... most people just had no
idea about our involvement in foreign countries...there is a higher level of awareness today...and this Iraq war was all over TV...

the powers behind the puppet may well be done with bush* now....watch for cheney to resign for "health reasons", which is why pinochet avoided the world court....

nixon lost his VP, Spiro Agnew, when he resigned after CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS in public housing scams....then, Gerald Ford was appointed as VP (the lowly minority leader of the House at the time, since others were too awash in criminal stuff to take the VP)...Ford presidentially PARDONED nixon and his minions, shortly after taking the presidency...then Ford APPOINTED Nelson Rockefeller to VP (a guy who wasn't even holding an office at the time)....so, we had a President who had been BOTH VP and Pres. without an election, and a VP appointed (Rockefeller's qualification was he was filthy rich, he died a few years after leaving the VP, while having sex with his secretary, no doubt upsetting his wife...another bunch of family-value guys)

bush* is repeating Watergate, call it SLAUGHTERGATE...where it wasn't the petty crime, IT WAS THE COVER-UP that destroyed nixon...and bush* is already caught in the cover-up...

this SLAUGHTERGATE is not going away, because the situation in both Iraq and Afganistan is a mess, Osama and Saddam are missing...and everybody knows it (unlike nixon, where his wars went on relatively unoticed in the news)....and bush* supporters are getting real upset that the Dow Jones remains floating around 8500-9000, when Clinton left office it was 11,600....the rich guys are mad...the seniors have lost their retirement money...and where's kenny boy???

on edit: the SIMMERING MAJORITY is not pleased with shrub...

[revcarol]

37. IMHO: we are at the "Pentagon Papers" stage, not at the Watergate

stage yet. The revelations of the ugliness inherent in this administration have just begun. Enron was the first trickle out of the dike, then this nuke threat lie drips a little more...

What might actually lead to Bush's defeat in 2004 is still unknown. I hope,"THIS IS IT!!" but really don't believe it.

I peronally believe that what will doom this administration and a lot of repugs with it is the corruption and massive theft from the American people by the Bechtels, Halliburtons,defense contractors, private corporations that have taken over after things were privatized, et al and the arrogance with which Bush has given them out national treasure.Several simultaneous exposes would do it.WE, on the internet, can help facilitate their downfall.

Not only do the people hate being lied to, they become rabid when someone steals from them!!

However, the one thing that would help the house of cards fall quicker is DEMOCRATS OFFERING POSITIVE PROGRAMS AND INCREASING HOPE!!

[OrdinaryTa]

39. The Ugly Revelations

There are some truly ugly things going on in Iraq. All of the elements are there to produce them: frustrated, angry troops; an administration that looks the other way; a compliant press corps; and a body politic that really doesn't care. But ugliness is ugliness. Somebody will finally have the moral courage to publish it.

My Lai was horrifying but the more accessible images were the picture of naked girl fleeing napalm and the film clip of the general who matter-of-factly puts a gun to a man's head and pulls the trigger.

There's so much brutality in Iraq that some of it is bound to come out. When it does, we'll look at the monsters we've turned into. The Germans resisted identifying themselves with Nazi atrocities, but in the end they finally had to admit that they didn't know because they didn't want to know.

[diamond14]

43. it was a turning point for Americans when those photos hit the TV

the photo of the guy shot in the head was Black and White, if I recall...maybe the napalmed girl was too...in Black and White...

but so many Americans had been hiding behind the GLORY of American wars...the parades...the songs...the marching soldiers...

and then suddenly, there is was...WAR...real WAR...right in our living rooms...


and like bush*, these conversations show nixon's lack of a conscience, and that nixon only cared about his own "appearance"....bush* doesn't really care that he ordered thousands of cluster bombs dropped on a major city, spinning out chunks of metal into everyone, instantly chopping of their arms, legs, heads...and the chemicals used in Iraq would make napalm look like Kool-Aid...maybe the press could publish some REAL photos of the Iraq war...

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/02/28/vietnam.nixon/


a wide-ranging conversation with aide H.R. Haldeman on June 12, 1972, Haldeman brought up the subject of the "napalm thing."

The photograph had been taken earlier that month, and was contributing to growing anti-war sentiment among the U.S. public.

"I wonder if that was a fix," Nixon responded to Haldeman.

"Could have been," Haldeman said, "because they got that picture of the little girl without any clothes. It made a hell of a bounce out of that one, but, it was North Viet ... (Haldeman stops to correct himself) South Vietnamese bombing South Vietnamese by accident. They thought they were hitting the enemy but they got their own refugees, apparently.

"Napalm bothers people. You get a picture of a little girl with her clothes burnt off," Haldeman said

"I wondered about that," came Nixon's reply

[radfringe]

40. regarding "timing" Watergate vs AWOL's lies

When the actual break-in occured it was during the summer of the '72 campaign and was just a teeny-item in the police blotter...so there was just 3-4 months before the election of '72

the shit hitting the fan didn't occur until after Nixon was re-elected

with AWOL's lies, we have about 15-16 months before Nov. 2004

This may not result in AWOL being impeached or resigning before 11/04, but it's going to be an issue from now until then... it's damaging his credibility at the moment, whether it continues to do so will depend on how much spine the Dems have, whether or not reporters have decided NOT to be lapdogs and how angry the public gets

I've heard more than one talkinghead say that dispite AWOL saying that the matter is over and he (awol) has moved on that this is far from over...