Is Education oversold as a cure for our employement problems?

[KlatooBNikto]

During the presidential debates, Bush in his typically inane fashion, offered every unemployed American a voucher to attend a community college.While that was obviously a laughable political ploy,it set me thinking about the larger issues,i.e.Is the value of education as a means of attaining higher standards of living overstated and whether education is an attainment with diminishing returns in the marketplace?We have certainly heard tales of Ph.D.s driving taxicabs or BAs and MAs waiting at tables or even ITs working at two or three minimum wage jobs to make ends meet at one time or another.Do this anecdotal tales mean something in the long term to our educated workforce or these are temporary situations that correct themselves as the business cycle improves?

In thinking about these things this sunday afternoon,I wanted to share with the DU audience,some of my own personal experiences from a long gone era that may be relevant.True to my age,I have also woven in some philosophical meanderings which my age entitles me to.

In the late 60's as a newly minted graduate from one of our elite graduate schools, I was recruited by a Fortune 500 Corporation to join their engineering staff.I was of course delighted at the opportunity to do something that required my talents and drove full bore into the job.I met my wife at the same corporation and together we were blessed with some fine children in the next few years.I was sitting on top of the world and soon my bosses rewarded my work with the VP and GM position at a very large and important division of the corporation.Life seemed good and the frontiers never ending.

It was in this setting that one day, my boss,( who has since passed away, bless him) called me to his office on a friday afternoon and started talking about things in general.He told me two things then that I was not really prepared for but have become more resonant as I too have aged.First, he said that scientific manpower in our economy is already one of the least cost items on our manufacturing costs and is likely to diminish further as the graduates from Indian and Chinese Universities come knocking on our doors. Second, even more profound,he said that while he appreciates my drive and is certain that it will lead me to the CEO's position in the not too distant future,he wasn't sure that I will find it particularly satisfying once I attained it.He told me I reminded him of himself thirty years ago and now that he has reached his own ambitious goals, he feels remorseful that he had to do things he is now ashamed of in order to arrive there.

That conversation and my high regard for my boss, who was President of our corporation at the time,has stuck in my mind as I near retirement myself.With regard to the market value of scientific manpower he was right on the mark long before anyone even paid attention.Just as the migrant farm workers that Cesar Chavez fought for and the thousands of auto workers on assembly lines who have lost their jobs to overseas workers,we are beginning to see the exodus of our middle class jobs to India and China simply because those workers too have become educated and are increasingly capable of delivering the skills needed at a much lower cost.I am certain it would not surprise me to see even our universities setting up campuses in India and China to take advantage of highly qualified professors and the large and eager student population available there.

What all this means is that if we rely on a certain level of education
to provide us with the kind of living that we expected thirty or forty years ago, we may very well be mistaken.Sure, some of us will find work that will be rewarding monetarily and intellectually, but the vast majority of even our educated workforce have arrived at the age of diminished expectations.I do not have a remedy for this situation but the first thing we ought to do is to "educate" ourselves to what we can expect from our lives in an age of increased competition from other countries where the expectations are lower than our own.This may not be as bad as it sounds because as they gain their places in the sun like we did after WWII, prosperity will widen and, with it better times for our ,may be not children, but certainly our grandchildren.

The second point my boss made goes to the core of what we, as individuals want from our lives.The pursuit of wealth and power, that people like Cheney and Rumsfeld,embody,is a self defeating activity in the end.It is in using our knowledge and power to help others that we finally can find true rewards.Many wise men over the centuries have have tried to teach us these wise ways, and I in some small measure was rewarded in my own life with meeting my boss who instilled these ideas in me.I am glad my life took me to him.

[Avalon Sparks]

1. What a thoughtful post.

Thanks for posting, I enjoyed reading your insights.

[KlatooBNikto]

7. As my boss used to say Youth is wasted on the young.How true!

[catmandu57]

2. No, not all employment

calls for an advanced education. It's a rather simple reply, but there are occupations that are needed, but require more brawn than brain.
Unfortunately, the people who need this type of job have been hurt the most with their disappearnce like manufacturing, it doesn't take brains to stand on a line and repeat a procedure for hours.
It's much like when people talk of kids going into the military to get an education, most of them are there simply to earn a living.
So, this is pretty a simple reply to your thought out question, but, no we can't educate our way to a better job picture.

[KlatooBNikto]

9. As an engineer and businessman, I think the commoditization of

education has arrived as educated workforces proliferate throughout the world.True to the laws of supply and demand, we are going to see diminution in the wages of this educated workforce worldwide.That is all I was trying to say in my post.

[Union Thug]

3. Education is critical...

If we are honest about wanting to be a leader in the world. I personally believe in fully public funded higher education or vocational training.

If you do this, however, as all good conservatives know, the house of cards that props up the current system will be destabilized; too many highly trained, highly educated people means their market value drops, which means those who remain untrained/educated see a marked decline in their value and suddenly we are in social crisis.

I think the paradigms that structure the core components of society need to be addressed. Everything else is just peripheral.

[Selatius]

4. Just my 2 cents

I would say that investment in education is almost as important if not more so than investments in the market. The payoff is that you have a more skilled workforce, and that equates into higher productivity and innovation. We need smart people to build better electronics, better appliances, cars, etc., not to mention the fact that we need intelligent people to address things such as pollution and cancer and whatever else needs to be addressed.

When GWB basically tells people who have been canned to go back to school, then I'd say that re-education is a LONG-TERM prospect for the American workforce. Putting bread and butter on the table to feed your family and paying your bills is an IMMEDIATE concern, and I hope these greedy folks wake up one day and realize it.

[Deja Q]

5. Like a technical college?

You know, for all the IT jobs that he openly supports? :crazy:

Education is his excuse and it's a paltry one once people start thinking about it. (Now notice that 40%+ of our population wants to keep the doofus in and wince. They really don't think much. So let them have the McJob and Wal-Careers... not us.)

SLEAZY, ANTI-AMERICAN CORPORATE GREED IS THE REALITY.

[Maple]

6. Jobs Predicted and Education Needed

This is from a UK firm, but it gives a general idea.

All of them require education, none of which is available at a community college likely.

http://www.personnelzone.com/WebSite/WebWatch.nsf/ArticleListHTML/98B5CF2E69F45DCA80256DDA0042A755

Demand for robots expected to increase: UN

http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2004/10/21/robots_domestic041021.html

IIT focuses on robotics. Industry welcomes the scientific agenda for a new institute that has angered universities

http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20041015/02

[cavanaghjam]

8. There's a difference

between education and instilling a love of learning. Basic education is mostly about teaching effective use of language, i.e. math, logic, music, vocabularies, grammars, etc (yes, math and music are languages also). If, at the same time, we do not allow the joys of learning to be realized, we imprison our graduates at school-end levels. Education need not stop; indeed, it should be an ongoing occurrence, thus allowing the adaptability necessary to deal with the world's obstacles which are almost always unforeseen. Too much of the education system is akin to programming a robot for certain tasks, but those tasks are ever changing in the real world. Don't stop testing for accomplishment, but include the laughter when our human frailties are revealed.

[AnnInLa]

21. thank you, thank you, thank you....from a teacher

"Getting an education" is supposed to be the magic bullit for everything, solving all problems. When all problems are not then magically solved, the education system is blamed. If the public schools could get back to their original purpose---to foster LEARNING, we would have a much more aware, questioning society. Unfortunately, our federally mandated purpose now is to teach students how to pass tests. I have two college degrees, and have learned much more from reading books than I have from all my years in school and from teaching school. (minor rant)

[Kanary]

10. I think education is very helpful in ..... India, where the jobs are going

:mad:

Kanary, getting more cynical by the day.....

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. I think the key to job security in this day and age

is to get into a profession that is not easily outsourced. This would mean being a tradesman-for example, an electrician, carpenter, pest exterminator, mechanic. Note that for these jobs, one does not have to go to college-some tech school may help, but for some, apprenticeships will do.

[sandnsea]

13. Immigrant labor

It won't matter in a few years. Wages have been driven down as much by immigrant labor, legal or illegal. And that will continue. The only solution, as I see it, is to stop the sympathy for the CEO and stockholder and begin demanding labor rights again. And another thing, the local small business owner just does not have the right to make $100,000 a year and pay his employees $5 and hour and then say "oh well, they'll get food stamps and Medicaid anyway", then vote against fair tax proposals.

[sandnsea]

12. I understand

My second job was with Keds shoes, in 1978. Consolidation, outsourcing, Nike competition; I learned not to believe in the 40 years and retire very early.

I also learned that education isn't the answer to everything when I met some well-meaning, but just, well, dumb people. They simply could not wrap their heads around concepts such as the human brain and animal brain are similar. Others went to school for jobs that wouldn't pay any more than the jobs they currently held, but because it was in an office, they thought it would. I remember a teacher calling me when I was a legal secretary, excuse me dear, but you make more than I do and have better benefits. That was in the 80's. And I knew those jobs were going to go away when I saw technology that let's you dictate and the computer type it up.

So we do need to know that retraining and education are lifelong necessities and are here to stay.

But, more importantly, we have to know that fighting for our share of the pie is always going to be with us. Whether it's here or for the workers in other countries. We can ALL go up together, the entire world. But it will take unions and workers demanding our share, just like it has since the inception of unions. That's another challenge for the next generation and I hope we're smart enough to pass that lesson on to them.

[sweetheart]

14. So much depends on what you call "education"

I call your post education. You are sharing wisdom of a sort, and
generously gifting others something you spent hard effort learning.

Education is as well in the willingness to learn, to be open to
new things, that the future might be different than the past, and
in this regard, i see the student's willingness to learn as a sign
that someone is adaptive and flexible, something that is a critical
skill in itself, no matter what is being taught.

I also find, as you have, that sitting in the managing director's
chair, where suddenly you're supposed to "have it all" can be a let
down. Rather than being wise, i discovered senior management to be
less the pinnacle, and more the beginning of a certain realization
that one's own achievement means very little without the context of
others and loving and assisting others in goodwill. I find that
not to be a money thing, but something that is learned when you
"get" what you want so badly in the career ladder.

And you can't tell me that anyone with a medical doctor's education is not
finding work, or that nurses are not finding work. It depends on
the area of schooling, even today, as there are indeed very skilled
professions sorely lacking entrants (but community college often
provides no such learning).

I guess what struck me most in your sermon, was that "education" has
become a replacement for "learning job skills". When once upon a
time, education had nothing to do with job skills, and was rather a
comprehensive basis of learning, that we are empowered to discriminate
what knowledge is, and is not. It has become cheap, and Plato
himself who formed the first university does not have the degrees
to attend a modern american graduate school whilst having much
more "education" than many degreed folks... as our system has
become focused on qualifications and skills, rather than knowledge.

And the congress has entire committees to make sure that job skills
are taught, but none that endeavour that the populace be educated.
Even those job skills are presented "hands off", as engineers and
graduates don't "touch" the raw materials, electronic engineers don't
build computers, they print designs. Mechanical engineers don't
mill steel, they print designs, that are shipped off to malasia
where somebody does real work.

Once upon a time, part of being skilled was to have the hands on
visceral capability to perform end to end manufacture, and instead,
the institutions have sectioned knowledge in to segmented skill sets,
that no person is capable on their own, having but 1 skill, and
without Kapital and the other 107 skills, the 1 is worth nothing,
so when the plant closes, nobody has a useful education anymore.

I truly believe that we should return to a system where a degree in
"knowledge" FIRST, that job skills are seen not as the basis of
knoweldge, but as small leaves on the tree. Rather so many Ph.D's
are nothing but glorified leaves, and no wonder they fall off when
the Kapital on which they've attached themselves flies over seas.

Knowledge exists without Kapital. Sadly, our education system seems
to think otherwise. Thanks for your insightful piece.

namaste,
-s

[KlatooBNikto]

16. To me the thing that works in all situations, regardless of our status

or education, is empathy for our fellow men and women.If they see you as a person genuinely concerned about their problems and are willing to devote time listening to them,you will be able to break the barriers of class or educational status.This is why I say that when we talk about getting retraining to a man who has to meet his mortage obligations, his children's needs and of course he and his wife's needs we may be in the position of overwhelming someone who finds it hard to meet his current obligations.As a person close to retirement, I sympathize with those who have to find the time to do the things that will raise them from the problems of losing their jobs to people from India or China.We need to address this quickly, if we keep saying they need to be retrained.In this age where everything is portable, this is not going to be easy.I found it appalling when Carly Fiorina, the CEO of H-P, callously dismissed the plight of American workers by saying American workers are not entitled to jobs any more than Indian or Chinese workers.But that is the attitude we are facing.

[sweetheart]

17. Post industrial rot

As my spouse is german, i've gotten faily deep exposure to german
culture, where i've noticed some things... same in switzerland.
There seems to be an embedded generational culture of deep-skilling
that makes the labour pool irreplaceable.

German and swiss railways are outstanding. They cost a fair price,
and employ many many people. By contrast, american railways suck,
and its no wonder fewer people use things that suck.

Years back the metro north railways (new york city), had to replace
those overhanging wires... (name slips me) that the electricity
is delivered on. They had to order them from a british company,
as the skills to manufacture cable tensioning engineering rig are
lost.

I think the rot starts in business schools and on wall street where
M&A has been pushed to the point of destroying value, on a massive
scale, and no surpise you mention ms. Carly Fiorina the
great value destroyer of the IT industry, who has followed this
same formula of aggregation towards the ultimate destruction of
even shareholder value, and Microsoft that is hardly capable of
innovating new software, it is so institutionally incompetent.

The economic formula that bigger is better is proving wrong, and
likely, economic historians will look upon this period as a lesson
in what not to do. Wall street's greed formula's have displaced
engineering with "financial engineering". As well, our republican
rotters have destroyed education in proper governance, that managing
assets for the good of long term social survival is lost, for
hacking out a profit by asset stripping. Dog eat dog darwinist
capitalism is a miserable failure, like it proved in the great
depression. It is the socialist element that makes capitalism
effective in the long term, and without it... banana republic.

Honestly, i think that people who are put out of work and who need
jobs should run for office. Then they'll get paid to do a job that
so badly needs doing, and as well, they'll have the pragmatic
experience of what is NOT working in our economic system, and the
desire to fix it.

It is the combination of kapital and labour in concert that creates
long term value, and this irresponsible flight of kapital is
value destruction of incredibly vast proportions.

AT the very root of the problem, i think that the withdrawl from
the gold standard in 72 was a mistake, and that all the capital
flights and job bullcrap is happening because of aritifical
forex rates that are not sustainable over the long term, when
kaptal can whip around the planet in a microsecond, but the job
skills to follow it take 20 years to develop.

I really believe that Mr. Kerry will need some really smart
people in the treasury when he wins, as the situation is already
on emergency life support drip, and without drastic economic
measures, the whole of america is very close to an economic
depression that will make the 30's look like a party.

[KlatooBNikto]

15. I agree with some of the posters here that education, by itself, has

a great deal of intrinsic value, quite removed from its market value.
But the enormous importance countries like India and China have put on producing millions and millions of well educated engineers, doctors,lawyers,nurses, technicians, machinists makes it more likely that all of these professions will see that their bargaining power in the marketplace will diminish just as our unions saw their positions erode over that last three decades.I am sure it will have an impact equal to or greater than what has happened to our blue collar workforce.The waves of IT workers laid off by banking and insurance companies can be seen as the vanguard of what is going to happen to the legal and medical professions in the next two decades.Manufacturing may not be the only victim at that stage.This movement has reached a take off stage and it is going to mercilessly grind down everything in its path.Education while good in and of itself is not going to help an MIT graduate who has to compete with a
graduate from the Indian Institute of Technology or Beijing University
on the basis of wages and benefits.

[oscar111]

18. 17 M jobless, 3 M jobs. 14 M Job shortage, so

if all in US have PHD's there will still be 14 million jobless.

Proof:

http://www.bls.gov/jlt

shows only 3 million jobs nationwide.

jobless plus "discouraged" is 17 million.

Proves bush is wrong. Education will never end joblessness. Some will rise, pushing others into joblessness, but never can ALL rise just via education.

http://www.njfac.org

Rbt Reich of Clinton sec Labor, advises.
site shows REAL solution .. WPA, and /or "share the work" as in France.

WPA costs nothing.. it generates new value, since currently jobless generate nothing. WPA can harness some output from them/

[Maple]

19. Thomas Malthus, Ned Ludd

and doom and gloom nonsense about 'it can't happen' died years ago.

So did your figures.

[SoCalDem]

20. Longterm, it can't hurt, but it's no short term panacea

Colleges are being squeezed like never before, so voucher or no voucher, where will they get the teaching staff to teach all the extra classes that will be needed?? They have had THEIR funding cut dramatically, and they have DROPPED classes and teachers.. It's almost impossible to even GET classes needed to transfer to a 4-year school.

But, let's assume that more students DO go to community, and then regular colleges...then what??

Where are the jobs waiting for their arrival?? Those jobs are being jealously clutched to the breasts of 50,60,70, & even 80 year olds (if they can still hold those jobs).. The days of the "jobs conveyor-belt" are O V E R ...

There was a time when there were actually THREE tiers of education..(FOUR, if you separate the Ivy League colleges from the pack)..

In almost any high school in America, you had kids an ALL tracks.

Some were "super-students", but were poor.. These were the ones who would get academic scholarships close to their hometowns. They would spend their college time close to home, and would often choose careers that would KEEP them near their roots. They would be the next generation of teachers, dentists,veterinarians, lawyers, college professors...

Some were so-so students, but were well off.. These were the ones who went to east coast/west coast high-ranked schools. Some did well, and others did OK, but nothing more.. These students had the built-in safety net of a wealthy family who, through connections, would pave their road to success.. They rarely settled close to home..

Some were the average students. The girls would often be the first to marry, because they had no burning desire to "be" anything except a wife and mother...with a part time job for extra money..
The boys could get athletic scholarships to college, but if they did not make the cut, they often did not make the grade either. They would stay at college a few years, and return to work in local white collar businesses, as management trainees, or they could sell cars or become insurance agents..

The last group were the classic under-achievers.. These kids were just eager to GET OUT of high school. In about 11th grade these kids were usually asked to take vocational training classes..They learned auto mechanics, upholstery,carpentry, welding, etc. There were similar classes for girls, if they wanted them.These kids usually married young, and the guys worked in factories or did other manual labor. They usually ended up living their whole lives as an underclass, but they HAD JOBS....


The one thing that this system had going for it was this.... JOBS..

Unions "allowed" people to retire at ages that people can no longer retire.. If a young person joined a union at 20, he would have 25 years in at 45.. He could (and lots DID ) retire then, and have his retirement check, and still work part time for extra money (and less strenuous work).. That job he (and many others) left, would be available for "move-up".. At the bottom, was an entry level job for a new worker..

That no longer happens..(well, rarely)..

There was a system in place that allowed for progression, and for retirement.. Now, few people can retire young (unless they are very rich or very lucky)

There was a symbiotic relationship between workers and schools. That relationshio is gone now.. Kids can graduate from high school and or college, and find that they are trained to do NOTHING...or that the job they ARE trained to do no longer exists..

The whole system has been nibbled at by so many legislators, that it resembles swiss cheese..

[KlatooBNikto]

23. Our economy's basic strength was to allow for mobility for the

motivated at the same time providing a life of sustenance for the less motivated.This, as you say, is gone.Along with this the dismantling of social safety nets from the FDR era is going to impoverish our people in the decade ahead.Whether it is deliberate as I claim it is or by happenstance the end result is the same.

[SoCalDem]

24. It was deliberate.. That's the shame of it..

The Reagan years did more to damage the underpinning of our country than anything has..

The fact that "he" actually george the first and his merry band of kooks systematically started unwinding the safety net, one thread at a time. They had 12 years to do it,and really hogtied Clinton for most of HIS 8 years, so the mess they made is monumental.

Idon't really see much in the way of a solution. It's like the kid who has a term paper due..If he starts it on time, and adds to it daily, for months, he's likely to turn in a pretty good paper, but....if he waits until the last minute...well you know what happens then..

We had a pretty good start, and things were humming right along, one thing building on another, and then the bush gang started dooing the one-step-forward, three steps backward routine..and they have been doing it behind closed doors, in secrecy...They have couched it in sweet-sounding code words that ordinary people tend to lap up..

I fear for the next generation..

[ladyVet]

31. I work at my local community college.

When I heard Bush's lame solution, I wondered...and study what? I don't know about other schools, but we are at capacity, if not above.

Most people going to school here take CNA (certified nursing assistant) or Early Childhood Development, both "careers" that used to be held by people with little or no education.

Now they come to school for two years, get an associate's degree, and if they are lucky go to work for $7 an hour.

I think people like to fantasize about these jobs for the 21st century, but in truth, the above two examples are the true jobs we will have, and in this area, most of them will be "in-sourced" by illegal immigrants, the same way maid/janitorial and small manufacturing, etc. jobs have been.

I truly fear for this country, and for my sons' futures. But, I guess if Bush gets another four years, they can always enlist.

:dem: Sheila

[SoCalDem]

33. Try to steer your sons toward a union job during college

That way they can start to build up seniority and have good benefits while they go to school.. That's what my youngest is doing.. He has full medical, dental, vision, RX.. and takes classes too.. He makes $15 an hour, and has said that even when he finishes college, he might just stay with his union job.. He likes woodworking and when it's quitting time, he's DONE.. Our oldest is an exec IT guy..travels constantly, and is NEVER off duty.. (His territory is Canada to Mexico...California to Colorado..and everything in between (and Hawaii).. Even though he makes 6 figures, our youngest said he would HATE a job like that..

Please don;t let them enlist :(

[expatriate]

22. When I was in grade school the push was all about

not dropping out of high school. "You have to have a high school diploma to get a good job."

By the time I was in high school, the push was all about going to college. "To get a good job, you have to have a college degree."

By the time I was in college, the push was to go on and get a graduate degree. "You need at least an M.A. to effectively compete in the job market."

The bar just kept going up. I stopped short of graduate school. Despite decades of trying, I have never, not once, been able to get employment in the field I majored in at college. Every job I ever managed to get while living in America was based on the skills I developed during the one typing class I took in high school.

For ages, getting the education was held up as a guarantee of being able to attain that all-important job that led to the good life. It ain't necessarily so.

I believe Bush is just using this because it's been the American credo for so long - go to school, get those important diplomas, you'll be rewarded with a "good job". Unfortunately, this has led to so many people who are simply not college material going to college that the colleges are flooded with people without basic English and math skills. College requirements have been lowered as a result. I can remember a time when three major grammatical errors/mispellings in a paper in any class at the university I attended would result in an automatic failure, regardless of the content of the paper. If a university tried that these days, the screaming would be audible on Mars.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with vocational education - except that far too many of the American jobs that a vocational education would have trained people for are now no more.

[KlatooBNikto]

25. Your experience validates the observations of many people.The

constant drumbeat of people who say you need a good education to get a good job completely ignores the plight of many people who get into a job through education and find those jobs get exported to India or China and are back to square one after having swallowed the BS about getting a good education.They get impoverished as a result and W, to his etrnal discredit, sits on the sidelines and calls them lazy.I have known Ph.D. s who, unable to find a job in college teaching, have essentially become migrant workers moving from one postdoctoral appointment after another with no security of any kind.What does one tell these people?Go get an education?

[SoCalDem]

26. What we will eventually end up with is...

People who read really well, and have 50K of college debt, living in Mom's basement, driving an old car, unmarried at 35...but they can make a mean slurpy.

[expatriate]

27. When I hear Bush's "get more education" solution, all I can think

about is Tanzania. Julius Nyerere was convinced that education was the answer to lead Tanzania out of being one of the poorest nations on earth. It was mandatory that everyone attend school through the sixth grade. Once everyone was literate, all sorts of problems were supposed to be gone.

Now Tanzania is still one of the poorest countries in the world, and everyone there can read on a sixth grade level.

I have nothing against education, but the type of education and the direction of the education is all important.

[MrPrax]

28. Education and Employment have little in common...

Is education overrated and oversold?

Well...let's do a test?

Is there anyone here, desperate for work, any work, submitted an application for a job where they decided to leave out their 'expensive' little degree?

The education industry is just that...a multi-billion dollar industry and unfortuantely the costs of training is no longer born by business, but by individuals.

If business were forced to foot at least part of the 'education' bill, then the costs of NOT employing people would be much greater and directly affect the bottom line.

[LWolf]

29. Education cannot be oversold.

What * refers to, however, is not education, no matter what he wants to label the system.

He is referring to the system that supports indoctrinating all of the future generation into the understanding that success comes with compliance; with following orders, not with thinking or questioning.

As far as employment goes, if we can create an education system that truly educates, it will not be "oversold." That would be a system that values individual talents and skills, and that supports a broader vision of learning than we do currently.

I'd like to see our children nurtured and given the best opportunities to learn and grow as children, then to choose what sort of education will lead them to employment of their choice. And I'd like to see it available to all at no cost; whether college, technical school, trade school, whatever. Teach them to learn, research, and think; teach them history so that they can be responsible voters. And teach them the skills they need for full employment. That doesn't happen now; we toss them out of high school and they find a way to educate/train themselves for a job at their own/families expense, or not.

[SoCalDem]

30. Education used to be considered an ASSET to and by the communities

Since the 80's, it has been seen as a liability..a pain in the ass to voters who do not want their taxes to go up..

Why have they been so upset about paying more taxes?? Because they are being squeezed everywhichway to Sunday, and they cannot afford the middle class lifestyle anymore.. The are willing to sell their kids' educations short so they have a little more money in their budgets..

[KlatooBNikto]

34. That may very well be a truthful and one of the saddest facts in

our society today.That parents think their kid's education comes after their own needs for luxuries are met.If the expenses were not discretionary, one might say the parents are squeezed.But these are things that we want, not what we need.In India and China people forgo lots of their meager things to provide their kids with the education they need.It is what one's priorities are, I guess.

[SoCalDem]

36. There a lot of tightwad older people who don't want to pay for

kids' education because THEY don't have kids in school anymore.. The intergenerational bargain is being broken down.

Younger people bitch about THEIR money going for the oldsters' social security,,,

and the oldsters bitch about THEIR money going to pay for schools..

We have devolved into a "me and mine" society, and anyone else can just go "Cheney themselves"..:(

[nickinSTL]

32. On the education thing

I couldn't believe it when Bush said that.

He's obviously completely out of touch.

Many of the currently unemployed are IT workers. Sure, sending programmers to community college will make them more ready for working with new technology.

Idiot.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Schooling cannot be a cure-all

And like many of the other posters, I distinguish "education" from "schooling."

First of all, not all jobs require advanced education, although our system has produced college degrees for specific jobs. Somehow in the old days, we got along with four-year degrees in "personnel management" and "corporate health and fitness." The longer I worked in higher education, the more there seemed to be dumbed down sequences of coursework aimed at turning mid-level clerical or otherwise non-intellectual jobs into "professions." Companies used to take high school graduates and train them for whatever jobs they needed to fill and college graduates for management training. Now companies want everyone to graduate with full vocational training of a lower or higher level, and if they don't have a degree leading to a specific job, then it's grunt work in a retail or service job.

Second, not everyone is equipped to pursue higher education. This is not a class or race issue. I've had academically gifted and academically clueless students of every race and class. In fact, some of those rich kids would undoubtedly be much happier on an assembly line than they would be writing essays about literature, while there are plenty of poor people and people of color who have a lot of raw intelligence that was never properly cultivated.