Leaving the country is NOT an act of cowardice.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

I am sick of being bashed on DU for my plans to change residence and possibly citizenship. The small number of historical American expatriates (including Ernest Hemingway, James Baldwin, Samuel Fuller, and many other great writers and artists) have contributed disproportionately to American culture.

America is a nation of immigrants. Some of us are very comfortable here, but others did not come so long ago and have never been made to feel entirely welcome. How can you condemn those people for trying to find another, better place?

I have been planning to leave the United States since before the 2000 election. I plan to leave still, even if Kerry is elected. It is not an easy task to emigrate legally, but I am working hard at it. There are many reasons for this, but cowardice is not one. Here are some of the highlights:

1. My partner is Arab-American. Not only do I not want to see her "disappeared"; we are both sick of giving money to the government to kill her people. Worse, she is of draftable age. We can't stomach contributing any more to a racist war against ourselves.

2. I am a scholar and an artist. I can't walk two steps in this country without being denigrated for my chosen work and identity. This has not changed since I was in grade school. Almost every other country in the world respects the arts and learning more than America does. I think I will have a more interesting career overseas, and anything that my work could do to "help" America could be done from anywhere.

3. American architecture has become ugly, most of the entertainment is insipid, and the food absolutely hideous. Go ahead and disagree; it won't change my taste.

4. I don't like sports, and I don't feel I should be stigmatized for this in employment and social situations.

Should I go on? The truth is that we are all citizens of the world, and it should be a human right for people to live in places they can stand. Insisting that simply by being born inside a line, people have a responsibility to stay inside that line, puts you in the Republican category in my book. I fight Bush for the sake of the human race, not the stars and stripes.

Democrats, beware: people are leaving whatever you say. If you mock us now, we might not reach out to help you when you need a "coalition of the willing".

[prodigal_green]

1. I guess if people are calling you unpatriotic

then the Jews were unpatriotic Germans in the 1930s and '40s.

The fact that our country is made of immigrants just shows you that this desire for a better, more comfortable habitat is perfectly natural. You don't need to explain yourself to anybody on this count.

[gpandas]

29. i'm real tired of this comparison.

progressives are over half the people in this country, not the minority the jews were in germany. no jackboots at my door, no disappearance of the rule of law, no badge to be worn. who do you think pays for the fact that these nations are so peaceful? who pulled them out of the fire against the germans and against the russians. who has provided the umbrella of protection during the threat of nuclear holocaust. THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER, THAT'S WHO. so just remember when you are enjoying the benefits of wherever you choose to stay, that the american TAXPAYER is ensuring your safety. good riddance, i say. especially ernest hemmingway.

[Zorra]

31. Wow. That's hilarious. n/t

[gpandas]

37. thanks for the comment.

i gotta' milyun of 'em.

[baby_mouse]

43. Gosh!

And you're really BITTER about it, aren't you?

[gpandas]

130. please explain n/t

[baby_mouse]

141. Really, I'm too tired.

Go and read something.

[m berst]

45. not responsive and very hostile

The original post was very honest and not at all confrontational or argumentative. Why would you respond with "good riddance?"

[gpandas]

131. obviously, i think...

people who cut and run when the going gets tough won't help the people who need help anyway.

[Book Lover]

80. You forgot the /sarcasm tag

I hope.

[gpandas]

132. no sarcasm here. n/t

[AVID]

128. warped logic / ignorance alert

[gpandas]

129. cool, well thought, response n/t

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

134. I don't agree with your military theory

But PM me or point me to a more appropriate thread to discuss it in.

[Gildor Inglorion]

2. Well said...

Many of us who don't exactly fit the caucasian, protestant, heterosexual mold have the same thoughts. I had never considered artist-bashing, however, I must admit. Whatever your decision, wherever you decide to go, "vaya con dios," and remember that many, many good wishes go with you. The world would be a bleak place indeed without its creative persons.

[Benhurst]

3. Who's mocking? My ancestors came in the 17th and 18th

Centuries (with the exception of one Native American who was already here), and I am trying to figure out how to move to France.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

5. I won't link the examples because they are ugly.

But someone comes along and does it every time a "Canada" thread comes up. I think it's paranoid people who think they will need warm bodies on "their team" for some kind of armed showdown.

[MuseRider]

4. Understood.

I am not sure why people would bash you or anyone else for your choice although I see it a lot here and it puzzles me.

I am staying to fight, my choice. I hope that anyone leaving for any reason would help us from the outside as much as they can. After all, 4 more years of these guys and the rest of the world will be looking pretty bad as well. I don't believe they plan on stopping in the USA or the Arab world so it becomes (became) a very serious global issue.

As a musician I can totally agree with just about everything you have said in points 2, 3 and 4. It sickens me.

Point 1 is also well taken. My sons will most likely end up in prison. Not what we, or they had envisioned for their lives.

[sister moon]

6. I won't quibble with your reasoning

But can you explain how your lack of interest in sports has caused you to be stigmatized? Also, please elaborate on the "hidious" food. I agree the food can be bad but with the range of choices we have there is no excuse to eat bad food.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. I can give an example of how lack of interest in sports is stigmatized

My father was a Lutheran pastor who was an excellent preacher and a caring presence when parishioners were troubled, but he had trouble with the church council (all men in those less enlightened times) because he couldn't sit around and jaw endlessly about how the Twins and Vikings were doing. That was ALL a lot of those guys could talk about.

In a corporate situation, I can imagine an aspiring executive getting the cold shoulder because he doesn't think it's the next thing to heaven to spend Saturday afternoon in the company's skybox.

I know men who pretend to be interested in sports when they really aren't, because they're made to feel that they have to explain their lack of interest. They'll go to a football game to maintain social acceptability when they'd really rather be home reading.

[sister moon]

14. I guess I never thought about it, not being a male n/t

[lastliberalintexas]

32. It can actually be worse for females

Men assume that women have no interest in sports, and we're often excluded from those good old boy corporate functions (the golf tournaments, the baseball games, etc.). Yet another way women are excluded from The Networking which Leads to Executive/Supervisory Positions.

[mountainvue]

90. One word. Golf. n/t

I hate golf. It's another part of the elitist's club. Don't mean to offend DU golfers.

[BlueJazz]

95. I understand exactly what your Father went through.

When I worked for Kodak (in Minneapolis)... I got so sick and tired of hearing about the Vikings, Twins, Green Bay..Etc.. I wanted to scream (some-days) "Don't you people EVER #%$^#$ talk about anything else!!"

Funny thing is now that I'm in Florida I pray for the Vikings and Twins to lose... And I'm an Atheist. :)

[Taylor Mason Powell]

7. This is a wonderful post.

And I'm nominating it for the home page.

As for me, I haven't yet decided whether I'll expatriate or stay and fight the good fight if Bush* wins. But I certainly respect anyone's choice to get the hell out of here, and you have stated your reasons eloquently and powerfully.

ON EDIT: I will quibble with your "horrible food" statement - San Francisco has AMAZING food, and last I checked it was still part of America. :-)

[RaleighNCDUer]

145. The freepers might dispute that though. eom

[UdoKier]

8. Yes. This country was FOUNDED by people who fled.

And the nutty religious beliefs of those first settlers still bedevil many of us today!

[fudge stripe cookays]

9. No worries, shortbus.

reprehensor and I have been considering it for some time. I can definitely understand your frustration and anger. And I feel awful for your partner and what she must be going through.

We cannot leave for another few years, until we have some more bills paid off and more equity in our home. We are playing a waiting game.

Please remember, no matter where you go, to do your research on the American government and how it can still screw you up abroad.

At one time, I considered completely giving up my American citizenship. BUT if they feel that you are doing it solely to avoid paying taxes, they can still deny your request for relinquishing your citizenship.

From my view, I could move to Canada and get dual citizenship up there. Once I'm there for awhile, I wouldn't be paying American taxes, and I would have Canadian citizenship; I wouldn't necessarily need to revoke it here. My money still wouldn't go where I didn't want it to.

I don't know where you're headed, but I wouldn't want you to shoot yourself in the foot.

And I definitely feel the same as those who mention the Jews in 1930s Germany. Did anyone begrudge Einstein or any of the others or call them cowards for getting out? No. They were considered smart for getting out when they did.

Wherever we end up, I wish us all luck. we'll need it. And for our friends who remain, I wish you all luck too.

Take care of yourself.
FSC

[Bo]

10. I have lived abroad for years.....

Europe and South America...its so much better than the sterile states

[Bridget Burke]

12. Glad you can afford it.

What country is perfect enough for you?

Edited to add: Be sure you find a country that has no aspirations for the World Cup. There are "sports fans" everywhere....

[Taylor Mason Powell]

16. That's not really fair.

Nowhere is the poster saying she's looking for perfection in a country. She says, "and it should be a human right for people to live in places they can stand." In what way does "tolerable" equal "perfect?"

[Bridget Burke]

25. He's not just anti-Bush.

He feels contempt for America's architecture, entertainment, food & sports. His intellectual abilities are not appreciated here. Surely he's traveled extensively & has at least one country in mind.

I was just wondering what country was up to his exacting standards. Living here in Houston, I'm quite aware of some of these shortcomings. I also wonder what parts of the USA sh0rtbus has tried.

The bottom line: If I had money and/or a marketable advanced-degree profession, I'd consider living elsewhere, as well.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

27. I see your point.

The food, architecture, entertainment and sports thing is not necessarily a great reason to leave the country. I love the food and architecture here in San Francisco. There's some American entertainment that I like (and more to the point, I don't think any other country's entertainment is necessarily any better). And while I don't like sports either, that alone is not enough to make me flee to New Zealand.

But I do think that it should be our birthright as free people to choose to live wherever we think we'll be happiest - whether that's here or in some other country.

What struck me as most compelling about the original post was the refusal to continue to pay taxes to support a racist war against the poster's partner. This is I think very valid. (And I think the poster's a she - it refers to "my partner" as "she" - unless they changed the gay lingo without telling me!)

[sweetheart]

30. the last straw

I think you have it. I certainly had my complaints about the USA
in living there, but they did not motivate my interest in leaving.
It was being attacked by the mainstream media for practicing my free
religion and being stigmatized as a permanent outsider/underclass
who would never have equal rights. That pushed me over the edge
to leave.

I remember having my non-american spouse coming home from the INS
one day, in tears saying she was being treated like an animal by
the INS and refused to bother with immigration anymore. This din't
tip my own scale, but certainly sickened me that someone i loved was
being abused by the welfare queens of the INS.

It takes personal persecution to drive people abroad, and complaints
might just help better rationalize the move, and to build up the
tremendous activation energy it takes to emigrate. Until you've had
the state society persecuting you or your family, the absolute drive
to get to a safe place does not emerge.

[Bridget Burke]

36. The poster's a "he" according to his profile.

He may prefer "partner" to "girlfriend"--quite understandable.

And fleeing to New Zealand will not protect you from sports. They play lots of football ("soccer"), rugby & cricket. And basketball is catching on!

[Taylor Mason Powell]

38. Gotcha.

New Zealand is OFF the list!! :-)

And I should have checked on the poster's info. Silly me. I just assume when people say "partner..."

In fact, I think straight people should be forbidden to use the term "partner," to avoid just this type of confusion! Especially because straight people have so many other good words available.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

49. Sorry to steal gay thunder :)

Neither of us like "boyfriend/girlfriend", or "partner" for that matter, but it's the best description of what we are: living together and sharing everything but not married. Straight people have not had the right to do that much longer than gays--in fact, I think cohabitation laws were in the process of being relaxed simultaneously with Stonewall and the early gay rights movement. Sexual freedom is for everyone!

[Bridget Burke]

55. "Partner" is used in Great Britain...

(For example, when Changing Spaces comes to redecorate.) Girlfriend & Boyfriend seem a bit silly for home-owning grownups with a couple of kids!

[Taylor Mason Powell]

58. Sexual Freedom = Linguistic ANARCHY!!

My God!!! I mean, there were pronouns...EVERYWHERE! The HORROR!!

:-) :hi:

[kayell]

127. I like it when straight people use the term partner for equivilant

relationships. I can't think of any reason you shouldn't and many that you should. It is a sign to me of solidarity and also a natural change in the language to recognize that this is what long-term, non-married relationships are. One of my brothers calls his long-term, female cohabitant his partner. "Girlfriend" would not describe their relationship as well - they are both mature adults, they live together, raise her child together, pay the bills together. Different words for gay and straight relationships create a divide, and to me it seems they emphasize the idea that our relationships are different, ie. not as good.

The last thing we need is to create a whole class of seperate terms for gay people, just as their used to be seperate words for women (actually we are still weeding out all those -ette and -esse words) .

[RaleighNCDUer]

146. True. At my first college, in '72, unmarried couples living off campus

could be expelled. Yeah. Expelled from the college they paid to attend, for living together unmarried. We'd have guys sharing one place and their girlfriends sharing another, on paper, just so the dean of students wouldn't know they were 'co-habiting'.

[expatriate]

74. Indeed, sports are big stuff in New Zealand

and also in Australia - however, there is not the pressure to be a sports fan that is so prevalent in parts of America. Both En Zed and Australia are noted for a prevailing attitude of giving the other person a fair go. If you're not into sport, so be it - very few people will judge you by that. There is a wonderful attitude of "mind your business and I'll mind mine" here that is refreshing after years of Big Brother in America.

The obsession with sports varies in America depending on locale, but I can say as someone who was raised in Louisiana, that in some places, the social ostracism if one is not a sports fan can be devastating. I grew up in a town that revolved around "The Tigers", and if you ever made the mistake of letting it be known that you were not into sports and didn't live to get out there and watch the games, you could find yourself socially ostracized. I knew men who had trouble keeping jobs over the same thing. They weren't interested in watching the gladiators fight over a football, but they had to feign interest or run into serious grief - anything from being pounded by the great sports fans to finding themselves passed over for promotions.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

46. The second, to answer your first question

I'm finishing my doctoral dissertation and I'll go wherever I'm offered a job.

[Dzimbowicz]

76. I finished my PhD in history in 2000

and I'm still job hunting. Best of luck. What's your field?

[ibegurpard]

64. "Glad you can afford it" certainly IS fair.

I see this "option" being discussed all the time and it's simply NOT an option for many, many people. It requires overcoming tons of bureaucratic hurdles and that's just if you do it legally. Doing it illegally would present a whole other set of challenges.

[firebee]

13. I've never ran from a fight.

Well, I too have considered changing residency, but my brother's in college and he's subject to being drafted, as well as my sister. I also have a few people I know over in Iraq. I just can't bring myself to leave this country in the hands of Bush with my family and friends' lives being at risk. While it would be easier for me to pack up and leave this country, I can't abandon the people I care about unless I know they're safe. I have nothing to lose, besides my family and friends, and I'll defend my people by any means necessary if that's what it takes to protect them from the incompetency of this administration. I've never ran from a fight in my life and I'm not going to start now, but I understand your stance and I can't blame you for wanting to relocate. Best of luck to you and I hope you find the life you're seeking.

[donheld]

61. hey Firebee's first post

welcome :hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Years ago, I read about a cross cultural study in which

classes of elementary school children in the U.S. and France were given the assignment of writing a story about a horse with wings.

Most of the American children wrote about how the horse hated having wings, how the other horses laughed at him, and how he tried to hide his wings.

Most of the French children wrote about how happy the horse was to have wings, all the wonderful things he could do, and how all the other horses wished that they could have wings, too.

Ever since I got into Japanese studies, I've been hearing the accusation that Japanese culture stifles creativity and that all Japanese are conformists.

This seems like projection to me. Sure, there is outward social conformity, but as far as creativity is concerned, I was blown away by an exhibit of artwork by ordinary people, including schoolchildren, that some friends in Japan took me, too. (Their nephew, then nine, had a painting in the exhibit.) If you look at some of the manga and anime that never reach these shores, you'll see a lot beyond the "space monster and killer robot" genre. And as a translator, I've learned a lot about the way companies and government agencies are brainstorming to meet the upcoming environmental and social challenges.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robbie67]

18. The question you should ask yourself is this: Are you an American?

If you were born here yet believe you can't live here anymore, I understand. But if you leave you really shouldn't be bitching about those criticizing you.

[m berst]

53. what is an "American?"

Unlike other countries that are based on ethnicity or geography or conquest by princes, the United States is a concept, not a location or an ethnic identity.

America exists where and when freedom for all people exists, as expressed so eloquently and unambiguously in the Declaration of Independence. It ceases to exist when freedom ceases to exist, and freedom denied to some is freedom denied to all. Understanding this is the essence of what it means to be an American. Failing to understand adn to honor this is to say that one is not truly an American, regardless of where one was born or resides.

If one is an American by accident of birth, by who one's parents are, or by where one lives, then being an American no longer has any meaning.

[m berst]

54. dupe

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Qanisqineq]

20. *LOL* I agree

I'm sick of people babbling on and on about how they want to leave. If you want to leave, then shut up and do it. I sure as hell don't care.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dorian Gray]

26. Yep....

I just read that other topic.

To Shortbus... Emigrate if you like.

I lived overseas for five years, and I enjoyed it. I, however, will always view America as home. I have wonderful family and wonderful friends here, and I would never want to be apart from them for good.

But, moving wasn't difficult. I quite legally moved to Hong Kong. I went there to visit a friend, applied for jobs, got one, went to immigration with my letter of employment, and I was granted a year there. I had to renew the following year, then I was allowed to stay for two more years. If you have a job, it's an easy process. (I taught English there.)

Not all countries are quite so easy, of course. But, you will be able to find something you like quite easily. I never understood why people thought it was so difficult to move overseas. (Of course, Australia is quite strict, as are other countries. But, you can leave here quite quickly and work on one of those other countries while you are working in another.)

Good luck. The more you plan for a move such as this, the more impossible it seems. But, it's quite easy.

[m berst]

85. "babbling?"

"shut up" and "don't care" and "sick of people" ???

And you post LOL about this?

In the past liberals and Democrats didn't think and talk that way for any reason, and certainly not in response to a suffering fellow liberal facing some difficult choices.

Liberalism is entirely incompatible with this unwillingness - derisive contempt! - for the concept of walking a mile in the other fellow's shoes and for having compassion for your fellow citizens.

In the 60's the most mentally unstable and mean-spirted KKK and John Birch Society members and sympathizers would shout "love it or leave it" at war protesters and civil rights activists. The vast majority of decent citizens, including most Republicans, were horrified by that verbal violence and the intolerant attitude that it expressed, and people stood up to that sort of bullying and spoke out against it.

It is shocking and very sad to see this sort of verbal bullying among liberals.

You can't say with consistency or integrity that on the one hand people are wrong when they say that the United States has become a brutal and cruel place, and then turn around and brutally and cruelly attack them. You defeat your own argument and support the points the op made when you do this.

[fudge stripe cookays]

87. Thanks mb

for your calmness and thoughtful responses in this thread.

I cannot believe these nasty messages are coming from DUers.

With all the nastiness and close-mindedness that we must deal with on an everyday basis from the uber-right and their holier-than-thou followers, one would think that this would be a place where we could discuss things like this with understanding and logic.

You folks responding with such vitriol in this thread may not be freepers, but you're reacting as flip sides of the same coin. I'm so sick of the judgmental "you'd never be able to say this if you lived in 'insert 3rd world country'.

We must all find our happiness in life where we can. It may be here; it may not. For those thinking about leaving, God speed. For those of you judging them for it, I am glad they are escaping from your narrow-minded attitudes.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmerDem]

23. it's very much called for...

and i'm not a jackass i'm a Democratic donkey!:kick: HEEHAW!

[AmerDem]

60. .

[Robbie67]

24. Perhaps you should have stressed this...

I have been planning to leave the United States since before the 2000 election. I plan to leave still, even if Kerry is elected.

I would only have a problem if you're leaving because Bush wins.

[noiretextatique]

28. no one has the right to question or belittle your choices

in the immortal words of *: who cares what they think?
if i decide to leave, i wil be following in the footsteps of josephine baker, james baldwin, richard wright, and DUer karenina (among many others)...none of them left this country for "frivilous" reasons.

[Cat Atomic]

33. Yes, it is.

Sorry to ruin the love fest, but running away most certainly is an act of cowardice. Unless you just don't give a shit about what happens here, in which case you should stop bitching anyway.

You can do what the Miami Cubans do, and rail about the monsters that took over your country- from a nice, comfortable lawnchair.

Those people have no business complaining, and if you leave- neither do you.

[fudge stripe cookays]

44. It would be so nice

to read one of these threads and not have to deal with such judgmental uber-patriots.

He stated his reasons for leaving well. If you don't like them, tough.

With such understanding folks such as yourself here, remind me what it is he's supposed to be missing again?

[Cat Atomic]

51. I've never been accused of being an uber-patriot before. Wow.

Sorry, but I disagree with the original poster's claim that fleeing under these circumstances isn't cowardly. If that's not cowardly, what is?

sh0rtbus' own situation might be different, since he claims to have been planning to leave for the past four years anyway. That kind of makes the whole post a little pointless, IMHO, but hey.

But people who flee the country to get away from another Bush presidency? I don't see how you can claim to both:

1) give half a shit about what happens here

AND

2) flee

If you don't care- if you're just fed up and want nothing to do with this place anymore, then more power to you. Have a safe trip. But if you actually claim to care what happens, then leave because you think things might start getting ugly... that's an act of cowardice. I'm sorry, but that's what I think.

[fudge stripe cookays]

69. You have no insight

into anyone's situation but your own. shortbus mentioned his partner's situation. Anyone with any empathy would understand what a difficult decision that is. Shortbus's situation IS different, not "might be."

I am married to a Canadian, who moved here a mere four years ago because he was in love with me.

I 1) DO give a shit about what happens to here
2) also happen to love my husband

So according to you, I should stay with him in harm's way simply because he is here now, as opposed to his home? He is doing everything possible to help us win this fight, which makes me even more proud of him. HE cares more deeply than some Americans I know.

He is the best thing that has ever happened to me. And if anything happened to him, I could not live with myself. Simply for being in love with me, he has walked into a hornet's nest, and I have no intention of staying if it becomes to dangerous here for him.

If I was married to an American, I would have absolutely no qualms about staying here and fighting to the death. I am not a coward, as any of my friends can attest. I do not back down from fights with raving freepers. I almost had my ass kicked once fighting a racist (I am a 5'5" woman; he was 6" tall and could have pounded me) As it is, my situation is a little more complicated.

I'll thank you to MYOB.

[Cat Atomic]

72. And you're reaching.

I'm not telling you what to do with your life. The OP stated his opinion, and I explained why I disagree with it. I still do. You can say leaving solely to protect yourself is valiant, or romantic, or anything you like. I think it's cowardly.

And if you want me to "MYOB", don't invite discussion.

[m berst]

83. how can you disagree..

...with someone else's opinion about their own life and their own options? Is not calling them "cowardly" a personal attack masquerading as an opinion?

[noiretextatique]

101. yes...it is a personal attack that no one is qualiied to make

it's absurd to claim someone is cowardly simply because they choose to leave this country. people make the choice all the time...for all kinds of reasons.
i am curious to know just exactly what some of the fighters will do to stop bush, inc, if necessary, come nov. 2 that can't be done from another country.

[Book Lover]

82. Where did your ancestors come from

and why did they leave?

[Sinnerman]

34. YEP Good Point

[maxsolomon]

35. see ya later, shortbus.

"i am a scholar & an artist". my, what a high opinion of ourselves and our "chosen work & identity". dude, you must be under 30. and i say that as one that has a BFA & an MArch.

by the way, the rest of the planet has been polluted by american culture. just ask adbusters; there is no escape.

[baby_mouse]

42. Uh?

Why do you attribute snobbery to someone calling themselves a scholar or an artist? What's snobby about being an artist or a scholar? And how can you possibly claim any sort of moral high ground after doing exactly the same thing you accuse shortbus of in the next sentence? And, since you place such a high value on a person's age as a marker of the validity of their opinions, how old are you?

As for the ubiquitous nature of American culture, well, at least abroad there are alternatives. You could, of course, simply switch your television set off and go to the pub for a conversation instead.

:eyes:

[maxsolomon]

50. 41

i don't give a shit if shortbus leaves the country. i'm likely to be right behind him/her. can't quite figure out how i'll pay for it or what country would allow me to emigrate & then earn a living.

he/she sounds young & i think self important idealistic young artistes are fucking hilarious, god bless em. & i've been in that culture long enough to say so.

[baby_mouse]

67. I don't understand you at all n/t

[noiretextatique]

106. i think it's called: hypocrite

does that help?

[baby_mouse]

123. Ah

[Fear]

39. Make sure you vote though! - further more.....yup, perhaps a good decision

[bryant69]

40. Well

These particular reasons are all personal. So that's fine. What I have a problem with is people who want to leave America because they have concluded that it is no longer salvagable or because they don't want to do the hard work of trying to save it. That sort of defeatism I don't find very admirable, particularly when it's overlaid with "Well if you believe America is an ideal worth fighting for you are sadly and pathetically naive."

But if you are leaving just to find another country you might enjoy more--well good luck. More power to you.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[RaleighNCDUer]

148. Ever hear of the White Rose in Berlin?

They thought Germany was salvagable. They were young and idealistic. They stayed and fought with civil disobedience, pamphletting, whisper campaigns at the university.

They were all executed.

Concluding that society is unsalvagable might be the best reason to emigrate.

I don't think it is. But I worry.

[humanbeing]

41. cultivating a persecution complex is only for religious reactionaries.

Sure, you have the right to leave whenever and to wherever you want, but whining about persecution doesn't really help you improve your lot in life. I say this as someone who is an immigrant and also someone who has and will be living overseas for several years in both Asia and Europe.

I don't see much point in your post except a list of complaints and a nonsensical plea to democrats not to 'mock' you. You've got a lot of generalization going on, besides the idolization of expatriates (ie yourself).

Psst, a lot of Americans born natively here have contributed to American culture, too!

[sweetheart]

66. When it happens to you, then you won't talk so big

When real persecution comes your way, and you get blacklisted, like
has happened, and does happen in america today, you'll maybe think
"gosh, maybe i should have not been so vindictive."

I live outside the USA, it has been very lovely and i would not
change a thing.

The original poster, was carrying on from a previous series of
conversations here at DU that repeat a meme on this forum. Your
memory is a bit short.

As a native born american, and a writer, i contribute where it
feels right. I think any artist should do just that. Johnny Depp,
Madonna, and so many other artists make homes abroad, so their
kids can get a decent education away from the republican cult.

Some people do it for their future offspring, and though it is not
listed in Sh0rtbus's reasons, it is clearly an unsaid reason.

My daughter will reach draft age, during this next presidential term,
and if she wants, i can give her refuge in my home so she won't
be oil war fodder.

[cire4]

47. Thank you Sh0rtbus....well said

Especially the part about citizens of the world. We should all be considered citizens of the world before citizens of America.

[ibegurpard]

48. My only beef with people who discuss this as an option

is how lightly they throw out the possibility. Leaving the country and going to another one is not exactly an issue of just packing your bags and going. There are tons of bureaucratic hurdles to deal with and doing it illegally would probably require applying for some kind of amnesty with the country you're going to, which is not likely to happen. It's just not an option for many, many people without money and/or connections.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

52. I know!

My brother has been trying to get to England or New Zealand for at least ten years. He has a master's degree in screenwriting and a middle-management job in television. He's hired immigration lawyers, even--but no dice.

As for me, I took a "shortcut"--I went back to school for a PhD. (Nice shortcut, eh?) I'm finishing this year. I think my chances will be fairly high if I can get an overseas school interested in hiring me.

[sweetheart]

73. give your brother this link

Scotland offers the possibility of immigration in to the UK(scotland)
via several avenues.

http://www.scotlandistheplace.com/stitp/sco_display.jsp?pContentID=458&p_applic=CCC&p_service=Content.show&

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democratreformed]

57. The main thing, for me, is that I am immensely sad that our country,

YOUR country, is not what you want it to be. I am deeply ashamed that you must leave to find acceptance. But, I DO understand. I think that I, too, long for the type of America that you do. I wish that there was more emphasis on and respect for intelligence. I wish that our society was more open and accepting. And THAT is one of my main disagreements with where we, as a nation, are headed. I feel that, especially if *Bush is re-elected, we are saying that we feel we are superior to the rest of the world. If the rest of the world doesn't like us or disagrees with us, we will just bully them into submission.

I have to say that, if I were in your positon, I would probably leave too. But, I am an American with strong roots. My whole family is here. I have never been anywhere else. I can't say what I will do here, as an American, under four more years of Bush. But, leaving is not an option for me.

[Liberal Classic]

59. If you actually follow through

more power to you. I have entertained living immigrating to other parts of the world. There's nothing wrong with being an ex-pat.

On the other hand, if you're going to make such a decision and pronounce it publicly, please have the balls to follow through afterwards. Thank you.

[Skittles]

62. I am an American

and I will not allow neocon bastards to drive me out of my own country. PERIOD.

[alittlelark]

99. Bravo!!!!

I will not leave either unless EVERY SHRED of hope is lost. :toast: :kick:

[Skittles]

126. every shred of hope WOULD be lost

if we all LEFT

[baby_mouse]

140. If you ALL left there would be plenty of hope.

Just not for the Revolticans. It's unlikey that the country's horribly top-heavy economy would last, (not that it's going to anyway, apparently) with half it's labour force gone overnight. And it would be the Repukes that would be saddled with the mess, for once! And you guys would be all happy, living in nice, sensible European socialist democracies. ;-)

Yes! YES! A Mass Exodus!

Vote with your feet! Abandon ship!

Ok, maybe a little silly...

[RaleighNCDUer]

149. LOL!

[donheld]

63. Sh0rtbus do not listen to those people

It sounds like you have quite a complicated situation. Go do what you need to do. Unless any of these people have walked in your shoes, they have NO business telling you it's wrong.

[hiphopnation]

65. An observation:

I would submit that when you begin a thred with a line like this one: I am sick of being bashed on DU for my plans to change residence and possibly citizenship. you're less likely to get folks who empathize, sympathize or even attempt to see things from your perspective. Your tone is very argumentative and it lends to a very...how do I say...UN-serious quality to your proclomation that leaving the country is not an act of cowardice. I guess lots of folks here at DU have been accusing you of cowardice, except for the majority of posters in this thread. I doubt very seriously that most folks here are going to argue with the reasons you laid out for leaving. I've expressed the sentiment myself many times here and no one's called me a coward.

Your post is kind of all over the place. From the title one assumes that you're planning on leaving if bush gets (s)elected again. But instead you list several very sound and legitimate reasons for wanting to leave. Some of them I bet the most jingoisitc, flag-wavin', heartland, 'Murican wouldn't have a problem with. So what's the big deal?

In short, shOrtbus, leave if you must or stay if you can. But please don't shout at me for doing something that I never did, k? :thumbsup:

[DuaneBidoux]

68. Sorry, it is cowardice. My wife is French

and I'm from a repug family (imagine the fun we've had). I'm not going to allow a bunch of brownshirts to take my country from me without a fight.

[noiretextatique]

102. was josephine baker cowardly?

or any of the black expatriates who left this country during the jim crow era? i can understand why they didn't want to live or die with the restrictions america imposed on its black citizens at the time.
sure...it only took another 100 years or so for the beginnings of equality.
those expatriates did their part in the fight, even as they fled from life as second-class citizens in their own country.

[DuaneBidoux]

137. But we all DO have the right to be cowards...

I've certainly got my list: small spaces, and dentist's chairs. It's possible that the Rethug Nazis, should they gain power, could break me that way.

[noiretextatique]

156. i grant you that

i suppose cowardice is in the eye of the beholder. after seeing "marathon man" i would not consider you a coward if you have qualms about your dentist :7 is it safe?

[sweetheart]

70. Voting with your feet

To me your comment incorporates an implied protest, that you are not
able to choose, or vote on what sort of government you get in the USA.

Yes, you can vote (if its counted) for some wanker to wage war in the
white house, but you don't get to vote on a petrol based economy,
on the media abuse to forment racial hatred, on media stereotypes
about artists and the arts, or on the strip malls of hideious
proportions that are the basis of automobile consumer life. This
basis of "culture" is not a choice, and if you are put off by it,
leaving is VOTING with ones feet.

You will be welcome wherever you decide to settle, as are millions
of foreign born peoples who come to the USA to settle.

I really believe that borders should have an open parity, meaning
that for every citizen walking one way, a space should be reserved
for someone to walk the other. In that sense, i find it wholly
unfair that emigrating from the USA is so hard, when competing
with jobs with naturalized indian born citizens, and americans are
not able to emigrate to india... same with many places.

If you don't like american architecture, sadly, you'll likely be
disappointed in most of the world, perhaps Denmark.

In any case, i think that for those who feel the need, expat life
can be a way for some people to mature to their full potential.
I felt so incredibly stifled by the time i finally got out, it was
like in the film Aliens-II, when my plane took off, i was overjoyed
to get out.

Then the funny thing, was that the entire life and struggle to escape
prisonstate USA, became the past... and suddently, i was confronted
with rebuilding my entire life in the UK, socially as countries that
don't have organized immigration, like many european ones, don't
embrace immigrants quite like the USA does, and it makes it hard
going. Even today, i'm a yank, and though i've left and am 100% in
my new land, i get all the political guff, as the american accent
won't go away, and brits never miss an accent.

In that sense, it has made me grow up and realize that i may have
"left", but that i will never be forgiven, and in that sense, i have
come to write on DU and engage with www.democratsabroad.org that i
can, i clear conscience, shake the hand of any person i meet, look
them in the eye, and say, "Yes, i am an american, and I'm voting
for Kerry, so that we can see the end of Bush and a better world."

Then we hold hands around the planet and geography is forgotten for
the goodwill of standing for human justice.

Godspeed to you shortbus, you have justice in your heart, and a
charmed future.

[Wyoming Rancher]

71. It's your decision

One the freedoms that all Americans have is the Freedom to leave.
ShOrtbus, that is your right, this is not some third-world country where travel documents are required to go across town, go enjoy and when you find out that the grass is not greener on the other side, come on back

Just remember that the place that you go may not have the things that you are used to or subscribe to your views of art.

Don't like sports, don't watch, Don't like the architecture, design something better, or something to your liking.

I've done the ex-patriot thing, did it for 25 years, S.E. Asia, Central Asia, total immersion, but I did "come home" and glad I did.

Rancher

[Kickin_Donkey]

75. It's ironic how ...

when the subject of leaving the U.S. comes up, one gets all sorts of nasty responses spitting out words like "coward," "quitter," "good riddance," etc. The ironic thing is that 99 percent of these posters are Americans whose ancestors left their respective countries sometime in the past for various reason. Would these people call their own ancestors cowards and quitters? I doubt it. Their ancestors had to do what they had to do.

We all have to do what we have to do. You have to do what you have to do to survive in this world, financially, vocationally - but also spiritually, mentally, and psychically. Others have no right to judge what you have to do to survive.

[sweetheart]

77. Same thing in britain

There are the same lot in britain, people who have forgotten
their own ancestry, and harp about those damn immigrants.

Heck, without immigrants, only foxes and deer would be complaining
about those damn immigrants. Ignorance is a universal value,
sadly more so than knowledge.

[maveric]

122. Yes, they LEFT and QUIT their countries and RAN to another.

If you love your country and if it ever meant anything at all to you, then you will stay and fight for it to take it back. Whether it kills you or not.
If you are not willing to fight for it then why waste your time complaining on this board.
You can talk the talk but you have to walk the walk to be a Patriot.

Fuck them! I'm staying and fighting even if its totally futile.

[sweetheart]

124. simplistic and physical

Human beings are naturally a nomadic species, and for one nomad
to say to another, because he's shacked up somewhere, that the
other is a coward for walking somewhere is a bit rich.

I am a citizen of the earth first, and a passport holder second,
up until a century ago, there were not "pass ports" as so few
people passed ports to make them necessary. A patriot fights for
justice wherever they are, using whatever means are available to
them.

That you've narrow blinders on about where you live, as if it
makes you better, is not patriotic, it is puerile. I love my
country, the mythical imaginary country where all human beings have
all human rights and none are disenfranchised. I fight for that
country wherever i am.

You are simply indulging in identity politics, to say what you said.

My vote counts as much as yours, if say "fuck em!" as well. We
are together on this, and you are being divisive, not the expatriots.

[Barney Rocks]

78. shOrtbus, I think you

are right to do what makes you and your partner happy. I have looked into options as an expat myself, and I know it can be difficult...but it sounds like you have put a lot of planning into it.

Personally, I have always admired artists, although I know that it can be very difficult for them to find work (my cousin has an master of fine arts and is a director in Hollywood).

I am curious--what field will your degree be in? Will having an advanced degree help you to find work as an artist? And what kind of an artist are you? And which countries do you think will be the best to emigrate to?

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

92. Geography

Before I go, I'm writing my dissertation. As well as a "thick description," it's intended as a guide for city planners to deal with homelessness.

I'm a painter and a fiction writer in addition to my social science work. (I'm employed doing evaluation work for homeless services while I work on my degree.) I haven't painted for a long time because, quite simply, I can't afford a place that's big enough to paint and live in. So I write--I have one literary novel, finished last year, making the rounds, and another more commercial one in progress. That's held up right now because of my doctoral work, but timing is important at the moment. PM me if you want to know more, I don't want to name names here. My MA is in creative writing.

As far as countries go, there are open ladder-faculty jobs in England and Canada that fit my background. (Canada, by population, has about ten times as many geography departments as the US.) I'm focusing on finishing the thesis right now but I'll be job-hunting in earnest in the spring. I'm willing to go anywhere, and I'd take a JC or state college job in the states on the way there if necessary--I can also do a lot of computer work (GIS, SPSS, Excel, etc.) in a pinch.

Ideally I'd like to live someplace warm. The south of France, Cuernavaca, Mexico, southern Italy, and Chile are some favorite places I've visited. Southern India seems attractive too. Academic hiring is so political that I assume whatever place takes me would be congenial.

[Book Lover]

79. Look at it this way

Everyone living in the US, excepting tribal Americans, left somewhere else. My father left Italy because there was no future for him there. Why should anyone denigrate you for doing the same? Best of luck to you and your partner.

[pen]

81. Sounds like you are not fighting.

YOu say you are fighting Bush, but you are leaving. That is not fighting. You should stay and protest and vote!

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

86. I'm probably leaving even if Kerry wins.

I think the damage has been so terrible that no one presidency is going to be able to fix things. The problems are decades-old, systemic, and this country is headed over a cliff.

People are free to call it cowardice, or selfishness, to want to live in a country that's not insane the way "We're #1!" America is. They have the right to their opinion, and I have the right to think their opinion is stupid.

I'm not interested in continuing to fund imperial America with my tax dollars. At the same time, I can't go to jail over it, because I have a son to support.

I'll be happy to fund the Resistance, though, should I leave. And if America ever regains her sanity, I'll return. But I think it's too late to change the course we're on. The country is going to fall hard.

Maybe it'll only stumble under Kerry, in which case (if I see major improvements and changes in dangerous policies like the Patriot Act) I'll stay. I'm not optimistic, but I'm very hopeful I'm very wrong, if that makes sense.

[Ardee]

88. The choice is yours

There are approximately ten million Americans living abroad , by last count. You certainly are free to be one of them. I must echo the words of one of my political heroes, Che Guevarra, who said that he envied most those who lived in the USA as, living in the belly of the beast, they had the most important task of all.

[Jean Louise Finch]

89. I support your decision

for whatever reason you decide to make it. I am pretty amazed at how many people on here seem to think that the only way you can be a true American is to stay put in one place. There's a big wide world out there, and I think people are better off for experiencing it. Why is it that people applaud travelling abroad, but when someone decides to actually give it a go and fully immerse themselves in another culture, they suddenly are cowards?

I've been an ex-pat for more than four years, and I still vote in every election, I donate to the right candidates and NGOs, and remain educated on the issues. I've been getting every ex-pat I know to register and vote. I argue with people from all over the world about what makes America and Americans great and what makes it and them absolutely disastrous. In this day and age, I think it's absurd to assume that the only way you can make a difference is to stay put and fight *LIVE* and *IN PERSON*. There are phones in other countries: you can still call your reps. You can still sign petitions. You can, in fact, mobilize folks in other countries to exercise some influence on what's happening in the US.

And hey! In some places, American politics AREN'T the most important thing! You could do some good for the displaced persons on the Thai-Burmese border! You could distribute safe delivery kits in the Sudan! You could de-mine Cambodia! But no, those Americans doing that are nothing but selfish cowards; after all, they left the US. What wretches -- how dare they.

The things that make it hard for me to think about going back to the US are both significant and silly: the unbelievable inward focus of the American populace; the total lack of serious holiday time to reflect, visit, and spend quality time with the people you love; the explosion of chain restaurants. Will I move back at some point? Maybe. But not before I've had some serious fill of the rest of the world.

[CelticWinter]

91. More power to you shortbus

and I hope that you find what you are looking for. I see no harm in leaving if you arent happy here. I myself will stay and fight for what I believe in, leaving for me would allow the "repugnazoids" to rule this country as they see fit. And if the day should ever come that this happens whether its in my life time or my childrens there will be no "peace on earth" for they will destroy life as we know it.
May your journey be a safe one.
O by the way I do agree with the sports thing, too much money spent on men running around playing with their "balls".

[greblc]

93. I disagree....

MOST of the people who have posted "I'm leaving if Bush wins" seem to have selfish reasons for doing so. "You might not reach out to help?" What can you say to make anyone think you'll be of help in the future when you wont stick around to help now. One of the reasons we are where we are is because this type of selfishness.

Why not stay, pick up a bucket and bail. Instead of motoring off in your life boat to save your own ass .


COWARD.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

97. Please reread my post.

I've been planning my exit since before Bush won in 2000.

[greblc]

100. There is so much work to do here.

There is no way to win by retreating. I think alot of people here understand your frustration with America. I don't see it as a reason to leave or think of only my intrests.

[m berst]

104. trying to understand here....

Because most people who have posted things similar to this post seem to have selfish reasons - in your opinion - you therefore feel justified in calling this particular poster a coward?

"My partner is Arab-American. Not only do I not want to see her 'disappeared'; we are both sick of giving money to the government to kill her people. Worse, she is of draftable age."

That strikes me as altrusitic and compassionate. Protecting my loved ones would be my first priority.

"We can't stomach contributing any more to a racist war against ourselves."

I think this is an intelligent and legitimate response to the dilemma posed by Eisenhower in the quote in your sig file, no?

[greblc]

113. Look beyond your household.

I care for my family thats a given. What have you done for your neighbor , your block, your city. People of the "Greatest Generation' did this. It's not about me & mine, it's about us. If you can't stomach what's happening do something in your lives or community to counter it. The idea that we are helpless to make a difference but to move is untrue.

[m berst]

120. I am with you

I will stay and fight. At the same time, I think we need to explore every option. Many may not be able to fight - the elderly, the infirm, the children. Many may not be able to leave - the poor.

People in every conquered country in World War II faced this choice - those who were able to fight. Was Degaulle the coward and Petain the patriot? Were the soldiers who fled to North Africa and England and joined the Free French cowards? Were those soldiers who stayed and did the bidding of the German overlords courageous patriots?

On edit - this may all be a silly argument anyway. I think shortbus should get his loved ones to safety if he can and if he feels he should. I think he should go where he can prosper and grow strong. borders be damned. I trust him to make those decisions for himself and the poeple who are important to him.

I also am entirely confident that a person who is struggling with this issue and who has the courage to post his thoughts and feelings about it here is a person of honor and integrity and guts. If push comes to shove, I believe he would return and join us in the struggle in a heartbeat if needed. I would much rather have someone like him at my back in a tight spot than people who are doing a lot of tough talking.

Freedom is about where your heart is, not your feet.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

136. I see the "Greatest Generation" as a myth

Both my grandfathers stayed out of the war--one worked in a defense plant due to hayfever and allergies, the other was basically a hustler. He showed up at the bitter end, saw no fighting, but stayed in the occupation for years. He sent money (too much money for a GI) home to the family he had essentially abandoned.

The other grandfather was a Jew who could not rent an apartment anywhere in America, except for small enclaves in Chicago, New York, L.A. and a few other cities. He was a great guy--great poker player, great storyteller, excellent father. But was that greatness to do with his generation? His generation slapped him in the face at every turn. Corrupt cops drove him out of business and he had to support five kids playing cards.

The only thing "great" about that generation as a whole was its movies, painting, and literature IMO.

[crispini]

94. I lived overseas for five years,

it taught me a lot. Some of the things that it taught me:

- As an American living in another culture, I was never really going to be a part of that culture, no matter how well I spoke the language. I did my best, I really did, to fit in and be one of them, but I was never very accepted by them.

- I also never felt like I had much of a right to participate in that culture. I felt like a true outsider.

- Living overseas made me realize how much of an American I really am.

When I came back I was bitterly unhappy, especially being a flaming liberal in a bastion of conservatism -- Dallas, TX. however, I had also been pretty unhappy overseas for some of the reasons listed above. and for others. I determined that I was going to stick it out here for as long as I could stand and channel my efforts into finding and building congenial progressive friends and communities.

and what do ya know... I've been able to do just that. I feel like I am a respected happy part of an American (progressive, artistic) community.

In the words of the immortal Buckaroo Banzai: "No matter where you go, there you are."

just one former expat's experience, FWIW.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[swhisper]

98. I understand and wish you the best

I am not proud of America and her bullying. It is just a few who use her might to destroy others dreams, but the people turn a blind eye or just plain do not want to know.

I respect maybe 2% of the people I meet in this country, for only that small fraction care to educate themselves. Still, we are too few to make a change. Our Carlyle groups wield too much power, and do not think twice about killing the informed. However, they are not restricted to America. Their rakish paws extend everywhere. They are sophisticated criminals. The other evils in this species are not.

So, my disillusioned friend, go cautiously into the next chapter in your life. Go knowing I have similar feelings about the hidden undertow running America. Cancers do die eventually, I just hope some people survive the cultural wars coming.

[bluestateguy]

103. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out

Goodbye. Those of us who choose to stay and fight for this country will send you a postcard.

[noiretextatique]

107. tell me: what does this fighting i keep hearing about consist of?

and why can't it be done abroad? there were more people protesting *'s war in europe than there were here.

[TahitiNut]

108. Video games and beer bragging.

Some folks are too young to remember the "Free French."

[noiretextatique]

112. fighting...

i wonder if i would have had the courage to sit at a lunch counter and have my skull cracked open. if the republicans attempt to steal the election again...we will see what kind of fight folks are up to.
i know i am rather tired of it all myself...the cycle. this isn't the first time, is it?

[TahitiNut]

119. I lived through those days.

I sure know what you mean. I was in awe of the courage it took. It just wears me out to see how corrupt this country has gotten. Corruption in business, religion and government - all at the highest levels. And we have over 45% of the "electorate" that wants more? No thanks. Even most of the "left" talks like its only a matter of winning next week's election. That sure doesn't bode well. I'm just too old and broken-down to play alarm clock. I'd rather be in the south of France or maybe even Spain.

[greblc]

109. Community Service , Activism & Out Reach

It's not just protesting.

All the Campaign flyers on your doorstep were put there by someone.

[noiretextatique]

110. and everyone here calling shorbus a coward does that?

i don't believe that's true. and if shortbus is able to contribute a million dollars to the cause from abroad, would that be "fighting?"

[greblc]

114. I would use the word if I didn't mean it.

You could buy your way out of the Civil war for $300.00 . I'd call it cowardice.
Money doesn't equal patriotism. I think we'd all agree on that.

[noiretextatique]

116. i detest this country,,,i just happen to be stuck here

patroitism...smatroitism. if i could leave, i would leave too.
some of my ancestors were slaves...they couldn't buy their way out of shit...perhaps you can understand why i am not impressed with calls for patriotism. as langston hughes said: "america was never america to me."
we hear this from the other side all the time, btw, the questioning of our collective patroitism as democrats, liberals, etc.
what gives YOU the right?
if the real shooting war starts...i expect to see all you patriots on the front lines.
the opposition needs all the help it can get, including money.

[noiretextatique]

142. no we wouldn't agree

and as i told you already, my ancestors could not buy anything.
you need money to finance campaigns, like the current democratic campaign for the presidency. you need money to make flyers, and to run websites like this one. perhaps we should ask skinner if he's turn down a large donation from an american living abroad.
how is it that you get to define patriotism?

[m berst]

111. ok, so someone is a coward....

...if they don't stay here and put flyers on doorsteps?

[greblc]

115. Fleeing what you fear is cowardice.

Yes, if your afraid of doorsteps or flyers.

[noiretextatique]

117. is fleeing what you detest cowardice?

i'm beginning to think some of you fighters are just lonely.

[m berst]

118. busted here

I AM afraid of those things.....

:D

On edit - of course there are times when fight is the right response and there are times when flight is. Neither is always "right" or "wrong" and sometimes fleeing means living to fight another day.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

133. Yes, no, yes

Community service and outreach... Hmm, I don't even know where to begin. I've pretty much devoted the last four years of my life to the problem of homelessness. I do data analysis for homeless programs at a fraction of the market rate, and for my own research I've spent hundreds of hours on the street. I have many homeless friends and the dearest one to me I've lost (RIP T.N.). I serve as an advisor to the organizing committee of homeless in a nearby town.

Activism? Well, apart from "Right to Sleep" marches in the latter capacity, I don't do much activism anymore. I am, as I say, an artist and a scholar. (I teach as well.) I don't really see why I should work outside of my aptitudes. Consensus-building, random political debates, and general party rah-rah are not among my aptitudes. Ask me anytime to write a blurb, paint a sign, or even build a database.

As the existence of DU will attest, there's no reason for me to be here rather than in Timbuktu to do those things. I think the "cowardice" people really believe in an armed confrontation. It's understandable, but I think they are expressing their own fears.

I choose not to live in fear. Most of my workdays take me into "ghettos" and in close contact with convicted felons. I took a plane from Oakland to LAX on 9/13/01. There's too much to fear, too little time, too much to do besides being scared.

[RaleighNCDUer]

150. Uh, perhaps if you were redstateguy you'd appreciate the feeling

of being an alien in your own land.

Just a thought.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

105. I totally support your decision for leaving

The sad part is what it reflects about America, not about you.

I'm thinking about going abroad for a few years after I graduate, but I'm an American and I'll always return home to help turn it into the sort of place that I want to live in. However, choosing to find a new home that suits your needs is equally valid. You have it right, though, that we are all members of the human race and that (should) trump national boundaries.

[Gothic Sponge]

121. Can i go with you?

99% not joking.

[Tight_rope]

125. Man...can I catch a ride with you!

[secular_warrior]

135. I don't mean to sound harsh, but you are a coward.

You have let them beat you and now choose to run away. You are failing not only yourself, but those you leave behind who depend on people like you to stand and fight with them, underprivileged people who -- unlike you -- don't have the money or the means to run away and hide.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

138. How am I failing myself?

There is a valid argument that I am failing others, if you are a stronger nationalist than I am. But I don't understand how I'm failing myself. I think I have been successful, in that I have finally realized I will never "win" a fight against a culture that is so opposed to me. I feel liberated, not constrained, by this revelation.

I don't have any money at all--I live completely hand-to-mouth as a grad student with occasional work consulting and music gigs. The capital I plan to take overseas is a degree, not a pile of loot.

"Underprivileged"--see my posts above. Outside of making art, my whole life is devoted to helping the homeless, and I don't plan to stop wherever I move.

[secular_warrior]

143. But the fight is here in this country.

If everyone on the Left fled the country, the theocratic imperialistic fascists would take complete control of America .. and eventually the world. There is no where to hide, they will eventually get to you too. It is our patriotic duty to stand and fight.

[m berst]

139. ouch

That "c" word again. It requires making assumptions to come to that judgement from the op, and it is name-calling in any case, no? Your judgement may be correct, but we have no evidence for it and no right to pass judgement on him IMHO.

Point well taken about those who are unable to leave, and I agree. That gets into the stunning insensitivity on the part of many white, suburban, educated Dems to the plight of the poor and minorities, but again, we don't know that the poster is guilty of that, either.

Often in life, those who express hesitation and caution and fear intially turn out to be the most courageous when the danger arrives, and those who talk loudest before the conflict are absent from duty when it counts. No one knows with certainty before the test comes whether or not they themselves will act with courage, let alone whether or not someone else will.

[RaleighNCDUer]

144. Some people disparaged those who fled Germany in the 30s --

and the list was long -- but those intellectuals, scientists, artists and others who did not leave wound up in the camps. My ties are limited, and I'll stick around, but if I had dependents to worry about I'd consider leaving myself. As a Jewish atheist socialist who is not quiet about my views, I may have cause to worry.

But my belief, and hope, is that Kerry will trounce *'s little butt and we will be able to start fixing things again.

I can't wait for the trials to start.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerryfor usre]

151. H i all!

OK, I am new here, but what the hell is your problem??? Just because it isn't looking very good today, you want to jump ship? You guys should get a grip! You want the enemy to win? Why would you leave? Who is going to fight if you go? You just going to give up? OK, it does look like we could lose this battle, but the war is still there, and if you leave how could we possibly win in the end? So we have to wait for Hillary in 08, so what? We can wait, and the victory will be even sweeter then!
You might ask why I think it looks bad now? Well, I am in the know. I am close to the Kerry campaign, and the internals are looking very bad right now. I hope we can get traction out of this new info on the weapons in Iraq. The problem is, if we can't don't give up! We can still win the senate and hamper shrub in anything he goes to do. Then when Hillary is elected in '08 we will be sitting pretty! How in the hell can anyone think of leaving! It is only a matter of time, until we get where we need to be! Now quit whining and get to work!

[m berst]

152. I must have commercial rights.....

...to this post. Marketing, merchandising, international distribution...

The internals must be looking really bad now if "Kerry for sure" has become "Kerryfor usre" there at campaign headquarters. Staff hitting the sauce a little?

OK. this is great. Best post I have ever seen. I especially like "I am new here but what the hell is your problem" with a flourish of 3 question marks at the end. I know what my problem has been. I didn't have enough question marks in my life. Thanks for throwing a lot of them into my life this evening.

I do think that "the problem is, if we can't don't give up" as you say. That is my plan, too.

So thanks for telling us - right from the Kerry campaign - just how bad it is looking. Now that we know just how bad and hopeless it all is, we sure do look foolish whining and giving up and jumping ship.

I for one will go right out and get me one of those grips.

Thanks for the upbeat, inspirational and encouraging news - straight from "very close" to the Kerry campaign!

Hillary in 08! I am getting right to work tomorrow on that campaign, and no more whining for this Dem!

[AmerDem]

154. you are "in the know" LOL

I understand you are a new poster here but perhaps you need to read over the DU a lil better. You see if you do that you will quickly realize that the vast majority here know Kerry is in great shape to actually win in a landslide. Are you sure you're not stuck in August date time?


LOL, this post takes the cake!

[WildEyedLiberal]

155. Wow, that's transparent

The only people in the entire universe who ever talk about Hillary are freepers. No self-respecting Dem actually thinks about Hillary in any context other than as a Senator from New York. Go have your wet dreams about Hillary somewhere else, and leave us here at DU to prepare for John Kerry's upcoming victory.

[JSJ]

153. self-serving and elitist!

[jman0]

157. Message of SUPPORT - you are not the only one!

Nevermind what flamers say, particularly "gpandas" seems he's been reading "The History of the World according to the GOP"!
I am an expat - (actually i never was patriotic) and i went overseas but not to countries under German occupation (nor any AXIS or ALLIED countries) And there are many of them to choose among!

But nevermind him anyway. If you don't like where you live, you can sit there and bash your head against a wall of ignorance (USA) to try to change things; or be positive and go elsewhere and take-on a whole new experience of life. Moving overseas will broaden your mind and give you a whole lot of experience you'll never get in homogenous USA.

[robcon]

159. ...but it's an act of cowardice.

jman0 wrote "If you don't like where you live, you can sit there and bash your head against a wall of ignorance (USA) to try to change things; or be positive and go elsewhere and take-on a whole new experience of life. Moving overseas will broaden your mind and give you a whole lot of experience you'll never get in homogenous USA."

But that has NOTHING to do with the election. If you leave because of the election, you are a coward, IMO. If you leave to broaden your experiences, go ahead - that's a great idea.

[RivetJoint]

158. No, but it's an act of surrender