Why are DU'ers attacking each other so much lately?

[zappaman]

I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this since I have a relatively small number of posts, but I'm a little concerned about all the anger I have seen in the last few days. It's like the movie THE THING. "He's the thing!(freeper)." "No, he's the thing!(freeper).
It seems that anyone who doesn't have hundreds of posts gets attacked immediately if anything they say slightly disagrees with anyone with more posts.
Just got off a thread where someone with 300 posts was told to go back to freeperville. Granted, there are undoubtably some freepers here. I got conned into clicking on a link from "detroit" and was taken to a ridiculous anti-democrat cartoon.
I have also gotten caught up in it when I had a post deleted for calling out a doom and gloomer who seemed to be laying it on a bit too heavy. Then for my sarcastic response, I got flagged.
Really, why does everyone have to be a freeper if they don't agree(for example) that "Curt Schilling is a piece of garbage" or that maybe "Kerry shouldn't play up the Bin Laden tape too much"?
I don't have a lot of posts because I spend almost all my time on this site clicking on links and amassing all the information I can. Sure, I could get 1000 posts easily by simply saying "I agree" or "You took the words right out of my mouth", but that just seems like a waste of time when I could be learning something.
It just seems to be a little paranoid around here.
That's all. I don't mean to say all DU'ers are behaving this way, but its really hard to feel welcome when you get jumped on for a slight disagreement. It's bad enough getting into an argument with a freeper in the real world...no one needs to get into arguments with people on the same side.

[Gman]

1. Some people don't realize the primaries are over

kinda left over stuff.... or something.

[Maple]

2. Tensions running high

because of the election.

Really...afterwards...assuming Kerry wins, and I do...you'll find it's a very nice crowd here.

[porphyrian]

44. Yep, that's what I think.

...at least until it's time to discuss the DLC control of our party.

[George_S]

56. And the trolls instigating.

What else can they do, the freeping freeps.

[NMDemDist2]

3. sorry, we're all a little on edge these days after fighting and

campaigning and working so hard

it will be a whole different place on 11/3

welcome and please don't judge us by this month, we are all on the ragged edge

:hi:

[Mabus]

13. No kidding

It's hard work. But, unlike *'s "hard werk," mine is productive and rewarding. Today was phone calls and volunteer scheduling. Tomorrow and Sunday are lit drop days, Monday is finish the highway blogging signs and hang them and Tuesday is GOTV-day.

I'm upright now because I'm too wired to go to sleep. I've been waiting for this week for four years. I've been working to get that idiot out of office almost four years. Wednesday will be my first day off in years.

[PittLib]

4. Seems to be a common sentiment

lets just hope it dissipates after 11-2 ... or 11-3.

:hi:
welcome to DU ...?

[Spiffarino]

5. We probably are a little paranoid

Lots of pre-election stress going on, as it must be on the right side as well. Give it a month or two and we'll calm down.

But until then...

FREEEEEEEPPPPPEEERRR!!!!

;):bounce:;)

[zappaman]

9. That's understandable

I have quite a few friends who are very nervous.
However, thanks to this site, I have sent out many emails that help allay their fears. What I have learned and imparted on them about polls and how they are weighted has been a real eye opener.
I'm usually the most pessimistic guy around, but for once I feel very optimistic and energized.

[Spiffarino]

23. Keep up the enthusiasm, Z-man!

We're going to need all of it through Tuesday night!

:D

[Tamyrlin79]

6. More of us here right now... More conflict as a result.

Plus, we are all PMS-ing because D-Day 2004 is almost upon us. So, we're all on pins and needles as we watch what happens these final days and on Tuesday.

[Wapsie B]

7. And some posters are paid

to come here and start fights.

[zappaman]

10. I don't want to sound naive or clueless...

...but why would someone pay someone else to come here and start a fight? What exactly would that accomplish? Do you have proof that people are actually doing this?

[DenverDem]

15. There are plenty of wrong wing funded boiler rooms

that pay people to go on non-partisan boards and spew talking points.

Half the idiots on the MTV boards are obvious pros. There are obvious pro trolls on several of the sports and music lists I frequent. You can tell them by their astroturff talking points. Many trolls on this board are pros, but they are subtle psy-ops.

Richard Mellon Scaife has funded this type of activity since the late 90's. The pros start fights to get us off message. It works pretty well,

[zappaman]

18. Okay

But as JOURNEYMAN pointed out, the left has always argued even before the internet.
And, by the way, thanks for the welcome. I live in Venice, California, so I feel surrounded by like-minded individuals...but this is also a great community!

[DavidFL]

24. No, it's absolutely true...

I know it probably sounds paranoid, but there are groups like that out there; I wouldn't limit it to rightwing groups though. There are special interest groups and corporations who employ people to derail discussions or attempt to influence the opinion of a website's members in a certain way. It's not limited to DU either, I've seen it happen at a couple other politically-themed websites I used to go to. I eventually learned, and sometimes the hard way, that not everyone posting is who you think they are, or acting independently and there solely for the purpose of discussion, debate and learning. These covert posters come with agendas, some come as 'package deals' and sometimes one person will post under two or more different screen names on the same site. You can usually figure out who they are if you watch them carefully enough because they almost always end up saying something that gives them away.

I just also wanted to add I can understand where you are coming from about the post count thing. I have a low post count here despite being a member for over 6 months now. Like you, I just don't have a lot of time to post because in what little I have, I'm trying to digest everything I'm reading and personally don't see the point in posting something that's already been said by someone else.

[Columbia]

21. How much do they pay?

Man, I need a new job. I can't even go online at my work.

[Robbie67]

8. It's a stressful time

It happens. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does.

[Journeyman]

11. The history of the Left is a history of division and infighting. . .

a regretable but true aspect of the passion which drives Progressives of all stripes.

[Selwynn]

40. That's the history of ANY group

[DenverDem]

12. Because there are lots of insurgent freepers on this board.

It's no secret. Many with 1000 posts.

People with legitimate issues are not hassled. Obvious trolls are. The modorators bend over backwards to allow freedom of opinion, but it is obvious that there are assholes who play the brinksmanship game so they can go back to reactionary.com and gloat to their inbred buddies.

Coherent, thoughtful posts are not the problem.

[zappaman]

14. But that's my point...

It's gone beyond obvious trolling. I read almost every post in the campaign section and most in the general discussion and posters are being attacked constantly if they have fewer than the "acceptable" amount of postings.
I guess I'm just saying we should all relax a little and not tear each other up.
Might be tough cuz it could be a long week...

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[m berst]

43. I agree and you took the words right out of my mouth

:-) Trying to up my post count per your helpful suggestion.

Hi zappaman and welcome. I read for a year and was busy posting elsewehere before I started posting at DU.

I have had two of my thoughtful posts jumped on and attacked so you are correct IMHO that it is not only obvious trolls who are attacked. I think I was accused of being a freeper on my 30th post or so.

Paid disrupters - I run another board and we have battled with pros for a year. I know that during the 60's and 70's it amazed me the trouble that people (police type people) would go to infiltrating groups at all levels - placing ringers in little offices of small local political groups and such. It surprises me that people are reluctant to believe that similar things could not be happening now. It is much easier and cheaper to make trouble and collect information on the Internet than it used to be in the old days. Do people imagine that the government is nicer now, or less interested in making trouble for us now than it was in 1967? Less motivated? Less unprincipled? That seems naive to me.

At least one of the disrupters we have identified took on a zealous pro-Kerry persona and did a wolf in sheep's clothing number on us. After all, who would question a rah-rah Kerry supporter? They then proceeded to subtly derail and disrupt conversations and steer them back to a get out the vote and "oust Bush, period!" idea. Don't look at this, don't look at that, we need to focus on job one people! It was masterfully done.

Some have said that things are tense because we are close to the election, but in my observation that is not quite so. Tensions are surfacing, yes, but I don't know if they have increased except among those who have, and have always had all of their eggs in the "oust Bush" basket. Those of us who have also wanted to discuss other issues - BBV, DLC complicity in the right wing agenda, broader progressive strategies, and the abandonment of the poor and minorities by the party, have been attacked for a year by the oust Bush crowd. They are always doing the sniff test on people "are you for us or against us" and insisting on enforcing "positive thinking" and limiting the range of the discussion. It is easy to see that this us versus them mentality is really hatred masquerading as team spirit and unity, and the hatred - regardless of the "cause" it is employed in - feeds more negative energy into the fascist threat. If the right wingers can get us to hate them - and each other - they win IMHO.

I see a stark difference between the activist community today as opposed to 30 years ago. People don't connect their personal situation with the larger picture and don't put mutual support and community ahead of ideology and opinion. Rather than looking for agreement and building solidarity and community, people look for ways to identify enemies and demonize them over the slightest difference in opinion. People use a process of elimination rather than a process of pulling together, crossing people off of their lists and rejecting them.

This is probably a function of 30 years of corporate efforts at turning us all into little consuming robots, islands unto ourselves, with everything in life being about personal "choices" and "lifestyles" and "taste" - big irony there because we have few choices, we live in a culture where most everything is in very poor taste and the "style" of our lives is slavery with a happy face plastered over it. The Democratic party has become dominated by those who have made the right choices, have the right lifestyles, and have better taste than the rest of us. White, suburban and educated people dominate the party and have brought a Reaganism mentality to everything.

The Bush adminstration has brought the horrors of government policies and practices that the rest of the world has been suffering for a long time right to the doorsteps of the privileged people in suburbia and academia, so they are motivated to limiting the discusssion to ousting Bush whenever possible. They call the poor and abused and suffering people apathetic and stupid, but we have seen over the last year that the poor, minority people and progressive have been systematically and ruthlessly excluded.

Saying these things often brings angry hostile responses, but it shouldn't IMHO. People have compartmentalized their lives and fight fanatically to defend their choices and lifestyles rather than finding common cause with one another in our mutual suffering. There is a thread at DU "how has the Bush admin affected your life?" and there are heartbreaking stories there. I could tell my own story of heartbreak and loss, but I haven't because my concern is for those around me who I have watched being crushed by the growing wave of fear and anger and selfishness and what we can do together to end the destruction and suffering for all of us. That wave of hatred and intolerance knows no party or ideological borders.

Yet on other threads when people try to connect this reality - widespread suffering and insanity, corruption and brutality - to any program that would address the problem, they are accused of being negative or tinfoil or impractical.

How can we connect cause and effect? How can we integrate the personal with the community and with the political? How can we find what we have in common first and foremost? People will talk about the radical effects in their life from tyranny and connect and commiserate with each other on that, but won't talk about causing change and won;t connect with other around that. They want to push the "oust Bush" button and have it all go away - make a personal choice that is right for them.

Well, I talked to much as ususal. What I wanted to say was welcome aboard and I look forward to getting to know you.

on edit - typos

[Kanary]

52. Attack and elimination vs. solidarity and community building

You sure hit that nail right on the head, didn't you?

That's it exactly, and until we DEMs start looking at our OWN process, and stop blaming everything on "THEM", we're gonna be doing the same damage to ourselves that we claim the "other side" is doing to us. Simple example of non-violence in action.

I just took the hint of another poster that this uproar is what is not only expected, but wanted at this point, so I'll be getting out of Dodge. There are too few of us calling for reason, and enough quickly becomes enough.

So, check your inbox.

Kanary, signing off.........

[CAcyclist]

55. Sometimes the attackers accusing someone of being a troll are also trolls

I've noticed that the posters who I suspect of being freepers are the quickest to label others as freepers.

I even saw a thread started by someone I suspect to be a freeper which had a blatant troll come on and start attacking people and the OM countered him, the troll was banished and I believe the intent was to make the OM look like he's on the correct side of the fence.

The best freepers are con artists just like in real life the people who get away with their verbal abuse and control are the ones best able to appear innocent to others.But people who are aware can separate the liars from the rest.

[m berst]

60. very good, yes

Good points CAcyclist. It is the rare Bush supporter who can carry on an in depth discussion for very long outside of their talking points. Unfortunately, many Dems only talk in counter talking points which plays right into the Bush supporter's hands and makes it difficult to tell what the person's true sentiments are. Being a Democrat and a liberal should not be a matter of wearing the right hat or spouting the right lines subject to loyalty tests, anyway. It isn't a team sport, and the fact that anyone can fake being a liberal and get away with it says more about the weakness of liberalism in the hearts and minds of too many Democrats than it does the cleverness of "freepers."

Bush supporters have no philosophy, no principles, no logical arguments - all of those things require critical thinking and critical thinking is incompatible with supporting this administration. They are not merely trolls here, they are trolls in life and that is all they are (Politically speaking that is. They are human beings no matter how misguided.)

The goal of Bush supporters is to stop us. If we won't be stopped, they lose. They win, on the other hand, if we turn on each other, argue with them, give into hate and anger, or lose sight of liberal principles and ideals.

Trolls can only thrive in an anti-troll environment where they can play "nyah nyah catch me (prove me wrong, out-argue me) if you can."

So while I do believe that we are infiltrated online right and left, the answer is to turn on the lights and the habituents of the darkness will scurry. The "light" is compassion, tolerance, forbearance, and patience. Those qualities don't make us weak - that is what the Republicans say - they make us strong.

[Kanary]

16. First, please alert on any "freeper" attacks or comments related! Rules!

It is against the rules to tell someone to "go back to freeperville", and shouldn't be tolerated. Please alert on those!

You will get all kinds of rationalizations "why" people attack here, and feel so free to do so. But, as a famous therapist once said, "Why is bullshit". It's the heirarchy of abuse...... if you wouldn't talk to your boss that way, then you are capable of controlling yourself, and only let go of that control because you know (or think you know) that you can get away with it. It's like the guy who gets abused at work, comes home and abuses his wife, his wife abuses the kid, and the kid goes out and kicks the dog. The verbal abuse buck has to stop somewhere.

"It's bad enough getting into an argument with a freeper in the real world...no
one needs to get into arguments with people on the same side."

I agree completely and have been saying it over and over. It's very destructive behavior to each other and to the party. It makes absolutely no sense to keep telling people to get out and work to change our party and our system, then run them down with verbal violence so they have less inclination to do the hard work.

No sense at all.

Keep saying it, because you are completely right!

Kanary

[n2mark]

19. Sensitive

I think we are all sensitive these days and are all frustrated because of the election. Hopefully things will change after Tuesday especially when Kerry wins. Just be patient. This reminds me when I was a Director at a Child Development Center at a college, all staff knew children and parents stress level would increase during mid-terms and finals. We prepared ourselves for the end of the semester especially the fall semester because of the holidays. It was amazing to observe how the children were affected by parents who were in the midst of tests. I consider this the same thing.

By the way, if you have children please be careful your frustration with the election is not taken out on your children. Just a thought....

[pelagius]

20. No flames from here...

...I think you're right in some of your observations.

I flipped out today on someone who was pimping a web site to "draft" Bill Clinton for Secretary General of the UN. Not only was the premise stupid -- a US citizen (nor any citizen of a Security Council member nation) can't hold that position -- but it was a dubious website that collects names and email addresses and nothing more. The person who started the thread had a low post count and no contribution star.

I was instantly convinced this was some sort of freeper troll and jumped down his (virtual) throat in overreaction. My post got deleted by the mods, as it should have been. Upon reflection, it seemed like a fairly innocuous, but clueless attempt by someone to pump up some college kid's irrelevant website. No harm, no foul.

But why was my initial reaction so visceral? I believe we are so close, so close to taking back the country, I go ballistic at anything that appears to be a distraction or fruitless dead end. I'm seeing dirty tricks Republicans under every bed trying to steal the election.

Not that they aren't. :-) But I know I needed to take several deep breaths, turn off the computer, take a walk, and get my bearings.

I have so much tied up in this election I unfairly lash out at imagined enemies when I should be steady and working diligently in the final hours to GOTV and help my candidates win.

[Catherine Vincent]

22. GO BACK TO FREEPVILLE, NEWBIE!

:-)

[lapauvre]

26. How informative and welcomingl\\

but i dont[ come on that often. And I think I will come on even less often.

[Bridget Burke]

27. If you can't recognize sarcasm.....

Perhaps you shouldn't.

[ronnykmarshall]

41. G'on girl!

SHEESH!!! Whatta grouch!!

[Kanary]

34. I don't blame you at all. THere are many very good people

who pretty much gave up, and a lot who are on the verge of doing so.

It's very sad.

We humans are capable of much better.

Kanary

[Catherine Vincent]

42. uh...I take it you didn't see my smiley face?

[ibegurpard]

25. You missed the primaries

It's much nicer now.

[Bridget Burke]

28. Tension is high, people are irritable.

And there truly are people here trying to encourage dissension. One way: By starting flamebait threads.

The Lounge is always available for blowing off steam. But most other fora have more important topics to deal with than how mean we are here at DU.

[JNelson6563]

29. This is a veritable love fest

compared to the primaries.

Julie

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. hehe. Daaaaamn

is that an understatement! :7

I think we're all doing quite well in our support of the nominee, considering the primaries. :hi:

[JNelson6563]

36. I think so too

We were pretty splintered, us Dems.

I have slowly grown to appreciate John Kerry more as our candidate. During the debates, next to the trained monkey, it really hit me, yes, I can actually be proud to claim Kerry as our President. He's intelligent and will represent us well.

It will be so nice not to have the idiot usurper representing us to the world anymore but a dignified statesman.

:toast:

Julie

[Buns_of_Fire]

30. We're on the 35-yard line with four seconds left...

...The score is tied, 45-45. It's been a hard-fought game, made harder by the line judges continually spotting the ball to give the opposing team an extra five yards per play. The opposing quarterback, even though obviously drunk and unable to throw a pass more than two yards, has been able to complete 99.4% of his passes due to the numerous pass-interference calls made by the backfield judges (the most egregious one being when he tripped over his own center and sprained his own buttocks).

The press photographers haven't helped by continually running on the field and leaving their tripods in the way of our running backs. A third team has been running on the field, tripping our players whenever possible. In addition, any fan caught cheering for us has been forcibly removed from the stadium.

But we've fought hard, and it's now 3rd and long. Kerry calls the play. The ball is snapped. DeLay ("the Exterminator") blitzes up the middle, spraying mace on opposing players (this was a rule change mandated by the opposing team, since their friends recently bought the NFL and own the stadium, too). Kerry pumps once, twice, and spots Edwards in the end zone. He throws. The ball is in the air. And... And...

It's like that moment, if you're a football fan. It's a little edgy.

[m berst]

53. But it is not a sports contest...

... and that is part of the problem IMHO. Your post is good and describes the tension well, but I want to use it as a jumping off point to expand the discussion without contradicting you. I think many people see this as a sporting event.

People's lives and well-being are at risk, and they will still be at risk regardless of who wins this or any other political battle. People were suffering when Clinton was president, and people will continue to suffer regardless of the outcome of this election. For people in the US and around the world who are on the outside outside of a very small cirle of privileged Americans, it is not at all like that moment for a football fan when they feel a little edgy. It is a long grinding fight for survival and dignity. When we look at it as a short-term contest to win, we further alientate and exclude the poor and the working poor and minority people for whom the prospects for the future are not immediately or with certainty enhanced by the outcome of this contest.

For the participants, a football contest is one of prestige, career advancement and remuneration. For too many Democrats, an election win is just that as well. For the spectators, a football game is mostly passive, and participation consists of cheerleading, and then earning bragging rights. For too many Democrats, and election win is just this, too. Football is militaristic and heirarchical and is a meritocracy. Too many Democrats see politics that way, as well, to the exclusion of the poor and the ailing and the less fortunate. Football is about throwing bombs, hitting paydirt, trapping, blocking and tackling and crushing your enemy and being number one. All of this is the precise opposite of liberalism.

OK I have to get back to the game. Northwestern versus Purdue. :-)

No one will be evicted or unemployed or have bombs dropped on their home or be thrown into a cage as a result of the outcome of Northwestern versus Purdue.

[Buns_of_Fire]

74. I bow to your eloquence

And I agree it's much more important than a mere sporting event, and I didn't mean to trivialize things. Believe me, I take the situation much more seriously than I take myself -- and I know this is but a first step in a long and arduous process. I was just groping around for an appropriate allegory within the context of the original post.

But I know of defeat, too, being an alumnus of Northwestern from back in the days when they were the Marv Throneberries of college football! ;-)

[DuaneBidoux]

31. Just remember Shrub said "A dictatorship would be easier."

This is DEMOCRATIC underground. Our inherent personalities make us the kind of people who throw ideas around, insults, who refuse to walk lock step in tune with "The Leader," who question and debate...

I always think that Dems are like the folks from Athens, and Repukes are like the folks from Sparta

[getoffmytrain]

32. What a stupid question.

:-)

[sister moon]

35. I agree

You took the words right out of my mouth.

But seriously, I am so freaked out at the thought that the boy king might steal another 4 years on the throne that I have been more bitchy and belligerent than usual. I apologize to anyone I might have offended and who subsequently tagged me as a freeper. I don't agree with a lot of what is labeled "liberal". For instance I have a bad attitude towards those who insist on PC speech and euphemistic language. It's dopey. Chide me for not being PC and I will flame you, it's inevitable. And I cannot stomach people who think they are better than everyone else so they feel it's their obligation to point out other's spelling mistakes and other petty observations designed to show off how smart they are and how dumb everyone else seems to be. Can't get over not being teacher's pet in 4th grade? Get therapy. If that makes me a freeper then fuck it. I really only have trouble with a couple of posters here, most people are very tolerant of my ravings.

[ronnykmarshall]

37. Are you talking to ME??

What the hell do you mean by that? HUH??!!!

You wanna start somethin'? Huh, PUNK???

What up with that shit???

Get outta my face!!!!

[Selwynn]

38. Because its two days more until election day -- deal with it.

Now is not the time when anyone is even going to here some "can't we all just get along" speech. The answer is, no - we can't. Not while tensions are at the highest they've ever been and one of the most important days for the future of this country is coming up - we all have strong feelings about what needs to be done, it is understandable that things are a little tense and absurd to think they won't be.

As a frequent "moralistic" poster who posts about our attitude toward political opponents or who we treat each other, etc. you'll notice that I have done none of that lately. That's because now is not the fucking time. Of course people are going to be paranoid. Of course people are going to be on edge. And absolutely NO ONE is going to respond or CARE about your point right now.

So just batton down the hatches, deal with it, and get through election night. Then one way or another the community will calm down and refocus.

[Kanary]

49. Ok, we'll "deal with it"..... and just leave. Thanks for the advice.

Surprised to hear this coming from you, but since you've laid it out so clearly, I can now see, as another poster put it, the McCarthyism, and know it's time to get out of Dodge.

For me, I'm pretty sick of all the rationalizing of bad moods and attacking. There are many, many people who are going through much worse..... the Iraquis come to mind, for instance. Or, from history, civil rights workers who were beatne and killed. Turning on each other certainly wouldn't have accomplished much of anything. If they could go through what they went through without dumping on each other, I think it's certainly possible for us, with some effort.

Have you been dumping your tensions on your boss? If not, I suggest it's possible to contain those same tensions and not dump them on fellow Dems.

It really is a CHOICE.

Kanary

[Selwynn]

57. Might not be bad advice. Better than staying someplace where

we have un-realistic expectations. Come talk to me about it again after the election.

[Kanary]

58. "They attacked us, and made us nervous and scared.....

so, we need to attack back, and hit Saddam....."

That's just how much sense it makes. Talk about "unrealistic expectations". Peace and war. It's up to us.

The *hell* I'll talk about it....

You dismiss me, that's it.

That's the self-destruction this is coming to.

Fuck it.

Kanary

[Selwynn]

63. I don't even understand what you're saying...

I'm not sure if I'm too groggy (just got up from a nap) or what, but that post did not make any sense to me...

I am saying something very simple and that is this: yes, certainly we are called to live by the principles we believe in to the best of our ability, and do so as un-hypocritically as possible. That means we need to do our best to treat each other with respect, and give people the benefit of the doubt and all of that.

That said, I am also very understanding of the fact that two days before election day things are going to be a little tense. Everyone cares so much - paranoia and nervousness will be higher, emotions will be ragged, tension will be great.

Of course we should do the very bets we can to act as civilly and responsibly as we can. But I'm not going to have unrealistic expectations of what to expect from DU. This is going to be a long, tense, emotional couple of days. All we can try to do is the best we can. It won't be perfect, because we're not perfect people.

Let's just get through the next couple of days, see what happens with the country and then take it from there...

[Kanary]

66. What I said was very clear. You're intelligent and I'm sure you understood

The reasoning for attacking people because of tension is the very same reasoning for declaring war on the wrong peop-le.

This group of middleclass people seem to be totally incapable of even thinking about those who may be a bit different from them, let alone being able to care and understand. If middleclass people, with advantages and relative safety in their lives, are not capable of dealing with a little bit of tension and anxiety, then this is indeed a very spoiled nation, as other countries see us.

I, myself, went through MONTHS of "review" on my disability, knowing that if I was cut off, I'd be SOL. Some days I found myself thinking about how I was going to "get rid" of myself if I was cut off. I'm still going through that with the housing cuts. Yet, I wouldn't be excused for crapping on someone here, because of my "tension". There are people in CO who lost all their resources because of a computer glitch with the state system, and some lost their housing, some had nothing to eat, etc. Yet, you can be ABSOLUTELY SURE they weren't given a pass to shit on others because of their "tension".

It's time to do some soul-searching. If the middleclass is going to attack others in the name of "tension", and whine that it's "unrealistic expectations" to expect them to act like adults, then the whole goddamned system *deserves* to go down.

What about all this "it's time to have adults take over the country"? How about adults right here????

I'm not willing to be your punching bag, or take any crap from any whiner.

It's not my responsibility.

You want to talk to me, as an adult, about how you're feeling, and how you're doing, and what you need, fine. Let's talk.

You want to not talk about it, and treat me like shit, then fuck it all.

I'm NOT YOUR PUNCHING BAG.

I lived through one abusive relationship with a man-child who thought it was his right to dump his "tension" on his wife and son. That's enough for one lifetime.

So long.....

I hope you decide to think it through.

Kanary, sick of aging whining children

[Selwynn]

72. I don't think that *I* have done anything to you, Kanary...

...except have an opinion.

If you could point me to an example of where I've somehow mistreated you, then perhaps I could make it right.

[Kanary]

75. Your stern warning and disdainful words were addressed to all who

are offended by being trashed.

I was stunned that it would come from you, and yes, hurt.

I will take care of myself, now that I know your other side.

But, this is more than personal....... this is just what I said before...... this whole damned idea that adults can be excused for dumping their shit on each other, and the dumpees should just take it and smile is CRAP.

Abuse is abuse, and will be called as such.

The whole idea that Dems are so much better people is silly, and clinging to that nonsense will finally break what remains of this party. Dumping on people out of "tension" and then badgering people with guilt to work for the party is totally nutz.

It's time to look to our own selves, and deal with our own shortcomings, and stop blaming everything on the media and all the other pity-partying crap.

Kanary

[kayell]

73. You've threatened that repeatedly today. Yet you're still here...

:shrug:

[m berst]

62. one's personal tensions...

should not be an excuse for mistreating others. "Now is not the time?" All we ever have is now, regardless of what happens to be going on in politics, and for compassion, courtesy and tolerance now is always the time or the principles and ideals of liberalism are meaningless.

Now is not the time for children to be dying in Iraq, Now id not the time for poor people to be thrown out iof there homes. Now is not the time for people to locked up in cages. Now is not the time for migrant workers to be terrorized by the police. Now is not the time for people to be hungry and poor and sick and alone.

Now IS the time for those of us whose only worry is being little on edge over this election to be magnanimous, to show leadership, to go the extra mile and to treat people with compassion and patience.

"Deal with it?" That sounds so obscene and cruel when one reflects on the horrors that people are dealing with out there.

"...some 'can't we all just get along' speech?" Now is the time when people most need to hear someone express the need for comaraderie, empathy for others, and cooperative community building. I would never characterize someone posting those ideas as giving "some speech" nor would I describe brotherhood and sisterhood as "can we all just get along" since that would so trivialize and demean our most noble and courageous inclinations and sentiments and would so debase memory of the sacrifices and struggles of those who went before and fought on our behalf for dignity and peace and justice and freedom.

[Selwynn]

65. As I said above,

Certainly we are called to live by the principles we believe in to the best of our ability, and do so as un-hypocritically as possible. That means we need to do our best to treat each other with respect, and give people the benefit of the doubt and all of that.

That said, I am also very understanding of the fact that two days before election day things are going to be a little tense. Everyone cares so much - paranoia and nervousness will be higher, emotions will be ragged, tension will be great.

Now is the time to give everyone a break - I don't think sermons on how to be perfectly polite and decent are going to have much impact on many people right now. Right now concern over the civility on DU is about thing 935 on my list of things to care about. Number ONE on that list is the ELECTION IN TWO DAYS. That is the only thing I'm concerned about.

"Deal with it?" That sounds so obscene and cruel when one reflects on the horrors that people are dealing with out there."

Of course, we weren't talking about the "horrors that people are dealing with out there" were we? We were talking about the complains that DUs are fighting with each other. And the bottom line is yes, its a problem, yes we should be concerned, yes we should do better, but no right now that is not really issue that matters most.

Right now everyone needs to take two steps back and take a deep breath and just give each other space. The people who are jumping all over posters and flaming them need to chill out and give people space, and the people who feel morally superior to everyone else and feel angry and critical all the "bad people" who aren't civil enough need to chill out and give everyone some extra space.

Basically, some of you folks feel like you are yelling at a father who knocked you out of the way and said "Get the fuck out of my way goddammit" because he was sprinting toward his son who was about to throw himself from a bridge. Maybe that father technically should have been more polite to you, and not cursed at you. But do you really think you're justified in bitching him out and ignoring the fact that he's has a few other more important things on his mind than whether he knocked you down or not?

That's the point I'm trying to make. Civility is important, treating people with respect is important - but when we're in a time of crisis, I don't yell at people who are just trying to take care of business, even if they're wrong. There is a time and a place for that. If I was at ground zero on 9/11 I wouldn't be morally offended at a police officer if he told me to shut the fuck up and get out of the fucking way, or did other things that might seem rude and uncalled for technically speaking, but really don't seem that important in light of 3,000 dead Americans.

Right now there are things more important that chastising DU and taking an attitude of moral superiority. I'm sorry if I cursed at you when I shouldn't have or wasn't as nice to you as I couldn't be - but we've got bigger things to think about right now, and there is a time and a place for everything.

So that's all I'm saying. Of course we must TRY to be as civil and open as we possibly can, and treat each other with as much respect as possible, but EVERYONE -- needs to GIVE PEOPLE A BREAK. The flamers need to give people a break, and the self-righteous moralizers (of which I could include myself) need to cut people some slack.

"Now is not the time for children to be dying in Iraq, Now id not the time for poor people to be thrown out of there homes. Now is not the time for people to locked up in cages. Now is not the time for migrant workers to be terrorized by the police. Now is not the time for people to be hungry and poor and sick and alone."

And yet, that *IS* the time we live in, and because of that, and because of the absolute seriousness of what is about to happen, and because of how all the things you just listed have broken the hearts and lives of so many hear beyond words - now IS THE TIME to give everyone a little BREAK.

[m berst]

67. excellent

Thanks Selwynn for the thoughtful response and thanks for reading my post.

"Give everyone a break" - yes.

Sermons? No. Reminders. We are called upon to be very tough in some circumstances now, while gentle with the less fortunate or weaker ones. Not easy. I am not advocating wimpiness nor am I trying to lecture anyone. And while we are close to election day, the harsh language in the cause of toughness, focus and unity started right after Iowa. (and so did my complaints about it :-) )

The tension is being expressed by some as panic and fear. I think those tend to be the have-nots among us, or the less verbally aggressive or less powerful. Others are expressing the tension they feel by being aggressive, tough and focused. Those tend to be the have-a-little-mores I think, or those with higher social position. At least that is what I see offline, and it is a generalization of course and YMMV. Neither is right or better than the other as a method for coping with the enormous stress caused by the current crisis. The fearful ones are not saying that others need to be fearful, for the most part. The tough ones ARE telling others that they SHOULD adopt the coping strategy they are using. That is why I am saying give the fearful ones a break. The tough ones are giving themselves the break I think. See what I am saying?

We should probably keep in mind that the higher up a person is on the social and economic scale, the more difference there was for them between the Clinton years and the Bush years, and the more likely they are to see the coming election as being the most important thing in their lives. The misery that most of the rest of the people in the country - and in the third world - experienced didn't increase so much under Bush as compared to under Clinton, so they are fearful and anxious about this election for a different set of reasons. Will the Democrats betray us is a bigger fear than will the Bush people win. What will the upper class liberals do if Bush steals the election is another worry.

Poor people and minority people and third world people didn't take such a fall under Bush, beacuse there wasn't much farther to go down. The Bush adminstration brought many of the issues into the awareness of people in suburbia, and that has driven many people into the politics who were immune to the oppression before the Bush adminstration. If suburban and academic Democrats get their candidate into office only for the purpose of going back to a state of happy suburbia and neglect of the poor, the workers, and the minority communities, then an opportunity will have been lost to have this election mean more than ousting Bush.

That is why some of us are overly sensitive to callousness or mean-spiritedness, especially when expressed self-righteously as "for the cause." It isn't inappropriate to suggest that "the cause" be broadened and made more inclusive, not is it counter-productive.

Again thanks for taking the time to write such an excellent response.

[Selwynn]

71. I think I disagree with the last half of that...

You really think that only the more affluent were really the ones who were "affected" by the Bush years? I would argue that the more affluent you are, the more likely you would be to support bush, assuming that money and power were your chief concerns. Things have been pretty great for the wealthiest people under Bush. The people who have really suffered are the majority middle class and below and the rest of the entire world.

Maybe I wasn't understanding you right, but I can tell you that my concern over this election isn't my pocket book. In fact it really doesn't have much to do with me. My concern is the injustice under Bush, and how that has affected the entire world. I disagree that somehow a Bush administration hasn't made things worse for virtually anyone living on the planet, if for no other reason that the fact that Bush can be counted on to turn a blind eye to the deep needs and serious crisis of anyplace that doesn't have $ associated with it. And I would reiterate that I believe Bush has been hardest on the poor and the people who need most, and easy - and in fact beneficial - to the people who have the very most.

I'm sorry but "will the democrats betray us" is not a bigger fear to me than will Bush win a second term. And my concerns and feelings of intense seriousness over this election have nothing to do with personal economics. If that were true, I wouldn't vote at all, because little of the last many years has directly personally affected my day to day in significant ways. My concern is over the gross and outrageous injustices carried out by this administration against the defenseless - the poor and the weak and the vulnerable have been their targets, and that infuriates me to no end.

[Q]

39. Welcome to DemocraticUnderground!

- Unfortunately...there are more than a few who join this board for the singular purpose of disrupting or planting RWing Talking Points. It's too bad that some new posters are thought to be disruptors when they simply have a different point of view on a particular issue.

- But it should be obvious that if you're a RWinger who wants Bush* to stay in office...there are plenty of other boards that would be better suited for that kind of pathology.

- Again...welcome and enjoy the majority of posts and posters with good hearts and minds.

[smitty]

54. DU attackers

With so many posters from different parts of the country, of different ages and attitudes, with different jobs and educational levels I'd be surprised (and disappointed) if we agreed on everything. There's nothing wrong with disagreements and even controversies---how else can we arrive at the truth?

[cleofus1]

45. unlike the conservatives...

we liberals are disparate bunch of iconoclasts who actually enjoy discourse and so we denounce and denigrate with delight.

[meisje]

46. It's only the future of our country at stake.....

ONE MIGHT TENT TO GET A LITTLE STRESSED! DO YOU KNOW WHAT I"M SAYING? DO YA? I DON'T THINK YOU DO!

[m berst]

47. Yes, our

The future of our country. The future of the country is not improved by anyone lashing out at others because they are personally stressed by the crisis.

During a crisis it is more important to manage one's own stress level, not time to use the crisis as an excuse for escalating tensions.

[Kanary]

59. "escalating tensions"

Kinda like the country getting scared and freaked out after September 11, so attacking Saddam was in order?

There's a major thought disconnect going on here......

We're making the same choices.......

:(

Kanary

[helnwhls]

48. thank you for bringing it up

Any poster under 1000 posts is a freeper. Anybody who disagrees with or points out inanity in a poster over 1000 posts is a freeper. Just because more than the same five people post opinions on threads that are set up to gather opinions, DU is full of freepers. So please post long inane rants about all the freepers in here, before you go to feed your five cats, or back to your mom's house from the dorm to do your laundry, or waddle away from the computer to get another liter of mountain dew.

I do like DU. I enjoy the news. I enjoy the threads. I have to laugh at the grandiosity. How many of you actually think you are being stalked by freepers? Take a moment to think. The freepers are sitting there in front of computer screens just like ya'll, worked into a lather by this slice of media or that. Spinning out inane crap before they go to feed their five cats, or back to their mom's house from the dorm to do their laundry, or waddle away from the computer to get another liter of mountain dew. Extreme geeks from the other side do the same thing that extreme geeks from this side are doing. Freepers post our threads and rant about them, we post their threads and rant about them.

The farther you go to the right or the left, the closer you get to the other side. On either side, the extremes are about making sure that everybody thinks and acts like they want them to think and act. Personalities that extreme are rarely pleasant. I also understand that the closer we get to election, more people will want to join DU to keep abreast of what is happening. DU is open for anyone to join and participate. The rules that govern membership afford a wide range of expression and opinions. I hope it would be a positive experience for all who join, instead of watching borderline personalities devolve in type as they try to make everyone think and act like them.

P.S. The freepers are coming with bunches of trolls.

[drmom]

50. I think we're right to be cautious about those who post things that

can be seen as pro-*. Although I can't understand why anyone would want to come here looking for converts. I think the people here are pretty well decided!

[tsuki]

51. Like all populists,

most of us work and advocate. It is a bone crushing schedule, and sometimes just rolling out of the bed one more day is almost exhausting in itself.

That is an excuse, but I am so looking forward to 3 November. I may call in sick and sleep all day and night.

I will watch my reactions. Free speech is important to me, and I like to listen to all sides.

[Swede]

61. It's called nerves.

And if you aren't edgey,you ain't paying attention.

[Selwynn]

64. It is a fact that we are dealing with far more freeper invasions now

That is another added complication that adds to tension and paranoia. The Mods can tell you that the number of people getting tomb stoned is high right now, and every day I see new threads that are started by freeper infiltrators (I say that because the threads are later locked and the poster banned - that justifies me calling the poster at least a disruptor.)

Not saying people aren't getting out of control with their knee-jerk flam fests against anything they see as remotely threatening. I am just saying I understand where it comes from, and I think everyone on all sides -- both those who feel compelled to flame others *and* those who spend all their time feeling condescending and morally superior to others -- needs to take a couple steps back and take a deep breath for the next few days.

I know I will. :)

[autorank]

68. It's Red Meat time.

Actually, I've found people a lot more civil compared to my experience being a "newbie;' a lot more civil! At the same time, DU is like the Bears/Steelers/Raiders of old locker rooms before the big game. Lots of anabolic energy. Rock on! It's our time.

[dancing kali]

69. Because American politics has become

much too polarized and nobody wants to accept that the other side (left or right) may have a valid point/question/opinion. "If you're not with us, you're against us". Sound familiar? That is how these boards have been sounding. No post that I have read recently has come out and actually used those words but the subtext that goes along with "Freeper" and "Go back to Freeperville" pretty well says the same thing.

I do recognize that there are those who post here who are really here just to disrupt things. They've been posting to newsgroups since I began reading them at work before the days of personal computers. They really are pretty recognizable and if you ignore them, they go away. However, simply disagreeing with an opinion is not disruption. Oh, I do also recognize that there are those who disagree with me on this point.

In my opinion, contemporary society seems to have adopted the notion that knee-jerk response in written communication is more appropriate than rational response. I have noticed the tendency towards this behaviour since the introduction of e-mail and other instant messaging methods. We treat these things as alternate ways to have conversations/arguments/soapboxes with others. What is forgotten is that we don't have the visual clues that go along with having a face to face conversation... clues that would tell us whether someone is being sarcastic or is serious or is joking. Everything is taken literally because there is no other way to interpret meaning. If I type, "Yeah, right.", as a response to "Bush is a good president.", am I being sarcastic or am I agreeing with that statement? It could be interpreted either way. Why should I have to use some cute little emotion icon? I'm not really into cute. I have something like 100+ posts, I think, (I don't care about post counts so I'm not really keeping track). If someone else here interprets my "Yeah, right." as agreement, I could easily get blasted as being a "Freeper", even if my actual intention was sarcasm. Those who post should consider their words before hitting 'post' and those responding should maybe take time to consider that not all disagreement is an attack and maybe more information is needed before deciding to make accusations.

...err...speaking of soapboxes...

FOXNews is not a credible source of information, as far as I'm concerned. Neither are MSNBC, CNN, nor pretty well any of the other major media outlets or most internet sources. I consider information from these sources as suspect until proven otherwise. So if someone posts something that quotes one of these sources, I will question the validity of the source. Even if the quote is favourable to "my side". This doesn't mean that I am questioning the poster, or attacking them. I'm questioning the source. Nothing more. This doesn't make me a "Freeper" or disrupter.

"The farmers and the cowboys should be friends..." (A line from the musical Oklahoma that seems appropriate here.) As I said earlier, things in the US have become much too polarized. All I see here lately is "us" and "them". With "them" automatically considered to be the "evil" side. It is possible to have perfectly happy interpersonal relationships with people who do not have the same political/religious/ethnic beliefs as you do. I'm a witch. This doesn't mean that I can't enjoy the company of the perfectly charming evangelical Christian family next door to me as much as I might an equally charming Wiccan family. If I were to find out tomorrow that my best-friend is voting Republican, I'm not going to suddenly not want her as my best friend. I may not agree with her choice and let her know that I don't agree but I would still love her as much I do today. I like differences. Differences are good things. I would find life much too boring and stagnant if everyone agreed with me.

On a serious note... from what I remember of US history, the last time the US was so polarized - there was a civil war. Not to be a voice of doom, but maybe it's past time for both sides to start looking for some common ground. Or at least be polite to each other.

The election is on Tuesday, folks. Using that as an excuse for reactionary insults of others is unacceptable. Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you agree with it or not. It doesn't mean that they are a "Freeper". As far as I'm concerned, the use of the "Freeper" epithet lately as a response is right up there with Cheney's "F*** off", and I treat it with the same disdain.

I'll end here and await the fireworks. I'm bound to have offended someone despite my best efforts to be non-offensive.

[zippy890]

70. I noticed that too, people getting nasty nt

[Moderator]

76. I'm locking this thread

reason:

please address any questions about DU
to the Ask The Administration forum