EXPATRIATE BASHERS - consider this

[bacchant]

There's an interesting bit in Roman Polanski's "The Tenant", where an inebriated Trelkovsky (Polanski), pondering the ambiguity of identity, asks, "At what precise moment does an individual stop being who he thinks he is?"... "Take off my arm, and I say 'me and my arm', take my off my leg and I say 'me and my arm and leg'… But if I cut off my head do I say, 'me and my head' or 'me and my body?'"...

Some of us have reached a state of ambiguity in relation to our National Identity. The country is changing, literally dividing in two. Witnessing the tenets and values we progressives associate with the American Ideal, being cleaved away like limbs in Trelkovsky's conundrum, you have to ask, “When does America stop being America?”

And by extension, when does this country become so alien that fighting for it becomes a misguided struggle. This is as valid a question as, “when is a relationship so irreconcilable that divorce is the best option?” Or, “when is a business so insolvent that closing the doors is the only choice?” Let’s be honest, we are no more likely to convert tens of millions of fundies and right-wingers, then they are likely to convert us. Unless the powers bent on American Theocracy suddenly retreat and embrace the separation of church and state, we face, at best, a bitterly divided nation locked in the eternal struggle of REASON VS FAITH.

Is it worth fighting if it cannot be won?

[Benhurst]

1. Who's bashing? I'm trying to figure how to get out. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

5. Same here. The America I knew and loved is dead.

[indigobusiness]

2. What an excellent question!

edit- The bit about identity, not about fighting an unwinnable war. Fighting the good fight is NEVER predicated on the assurance of victory.

[acmavm]

3. Who says it can't be won? Who says it's not worth the fight? Don't if you

don't think it's worth your effort or it's a lost cause. You do have that choice, everyone does.

[Wapsie B]

4. I just don't think that many here

would want to declare total and complete defeat to the pod people. This is our country too! I can understand why someone would feel the need to move to a more civilized area of the world right now. But our country is too valuable to turn 49 states into another *Utah.


*apologies to liberal Utah residents

[mirandaod]

6. I've been giving it some thought, actually.

For me, it comes down to whether or not the electoral system is trustworthy. I can continue fighting if, when I'm registering voters, I can look these expats in the eye and tell them I'm sure their votes count.
So, I guess my issue for now is the electronic voting machines. I'm going to concentrate my efforts on making sure there is a verifiable paper trail and real accountability.
If this fails, I have to decide if it's worth continuing the struggle.

[Benhurst]

11. Well stated. If we don't regain the franchise, it's difficult

to see any effective way to continue the struggle. Any reasonable person would have to admit it looks as though we may have lost our right to vote already. If so, we have a very limited window of opportunity to restore our rights. Liberties lost are rarely regained.

[annabanana]

13. veto proof in '06....

We have our work cut out for us!

[SammyWinstonJack]

7. I'm not bashing

If the religious nut jobs do what it seems they intend to do, I will find a way to exit stage left!

[jpgray]

8. Yes, because the conservatives beat us by leaving the country

:crazy:

Come on people. It took them three decades and a lot of hard work to overturn the consolidation of liberal ideals ushered in by FDR and last seen in the sixties. By the tone of some at DU, people seem to think it should take a few weekends of aimless talk, and then some whining when things don't work out. I find the self-important melodrama of those who post endless "I'm leaving" threads to be both depressing and exasperating. What fariweather friends some are. :(

[bacchant]

10. Well if it's no good to us anymore maybe we should let them have it

Am I correct in assuming you believe we can ultimately triumph? Will it take another 30 years and will our gains be sufficient?

[Benhurst]

14. One big difference: We did not take the franchise away from

the Republicans. Three times now, in three separate national elections: 2000 (definitely); 2002 (most probably) and 2004 (most definitely), they have taken it away from us. If the election process is "blackboxed," we are left with no option short of armed rebellion or emigration.

[hlthe2b]

16. I understand your frustration, JpGray.... but lets let people work through

their feelings and conflict. My guess is most will come to the conclusion that we simply MUST stay and fight, but they MUST come to that conclusion on their own. I simply don't think you can shame people to that conclusion when the very core of their beliefs, and chances for a true future may be in the balance. When I think of telling someone who is unemployed or who is gay in a red state, or who has been targeted for whatever reason by the RW or ASSSKROFT's storm troopers, or whose family is facing serious chronic and unaddressed medical issues for which immigration holds hope for help-- that they must stay and fight--well, that is very easy to say. I only wish someone might have helped that young man who took his life hours ago at the remnants of the WTC, to find hope to survive-- either in this country or by expatriating elsewhere. Had he chosen the latter, I would celebrate his decision to live and become personally healthy in a better situation.

As painful as it is to discuss or hear discussed, we need to let people air their pain and frustration. Your being here to support them and counter their feelings of isolationism with the strength of progressive support that exists, will do much to help individuals balance their decision towards staying.

[Daisey Mae]

9. Things are closing fast here in fascist America under *

[Cleita]

12. I for one, don't feel like abandoning this country

to the devil's own.

[bacchant]

17. It's not so much about abandoning as it is about embracing,

embracing the notion that we are not defined by country, we, through our values and principles, define it. When this land can no longer be our vessel, I embrace the reality of finding another.

[hlthe2b]

15. Nicely stated.... and I would add...

At what precise moment do the American people--ALL the American people become irrevocably complicit for all the wrong, evil, horror, committed in OUR names.

My parents' generation could never forgive the German people for what transpired in the 1930s-- culminating in the Nazi horrors. Were they all brushed with the same swath, regardless of their level of knowledge and whether they may have made efforts to resist? Quite possibly. But, I'm starting to have a very very uncomfortable feeling that, despite our best efforts, history will judge us all equally complicit.

The question then becomes, what do we do? While it counters my deeply held fighting instincts, I stil must ask, if we can not effect timely change, are we better to leave and try to inform the world? Try to effect change from outside? I just don't know... and, I like many am very very tormented.

[LiberalPersona]

18. Why would you think

that we can not win? We are the majority, and our majority is growing. The problem is that they are doing things illegally. If we do not stop them in their tracks, and just give up the country, they have won. Not only the country, but the world. Moving to another country does not solve anything, it makes the problem worse. Oh it may solve your personal life temporarily, but what makes you think they'll stop at just controlling the country? They think war and America dominance of the world by force is a good thing.