Why are so many here compelled to blame the troops rather than the leaders

[Redleg]

who put them into this fucked-up situation in Iraq? Jeebus, does it make you feel good to look down on 20 year old soldiers and marines who are hot, tired, dirty and getting shot at every fucking day?

Have some compassion for these young folks. They are tasked with an almost impossible job and they have to answer to asshole leaders who lie to them about Iraq. You harping on these people at DU doesn't change the situation and makes us look like a bunch of shitheads.\

Many of us at DU have served in the military and while we loath Bush and disagree with the war we don't blame the poor bastards who have to fight it. We instead hope that they can retain their humanity in these very difficult circumstances and can come home and heal and get on with their lives- not as killers but as people who contribute to our society.

[gumby]

1. What?

I don't read all posts all the time, but I've never been aware of a "so many here compelled to blame the troops" slant here.

What are you talking about? Have I missed something?

[Redleg]

2. Go to latest breaking news to read the blame the troops stuff.

If you haven't seen it you haven't been paying attention.

[Ducks In A Row]

5. The freepers say it so, so it must be true

We all hate the troops and think bush is a great leader.

you are so-o-o behind the meme








:)

[Redleg]

8. Go look at some of the posts.

Don't even try to insinuate that I am a freeper. You are living in denial if you haven't noticed some DUers slamming the troops.

[sangh0]

52. YOu can't make the river flow upstream

There are people here dedicated to not seeing any signs of intolerance on DU. According to them, DU doesn't demonstrate any hostility towards women, gays, the religious, southerners, etc.

[Redleg]

73. I guess you are right. I should give up on this.

EOM

[RyomaSakamoto]

3. some of the troops are speaking out

and they are getting some flack - rightly so - for sounding bllod THIRSTY

but the admin certainly get's most of the blame round here.

hope that helps :hi:

[Ducks In A Row]

7. it an individual person in the military, in iraq...

does or say something stupid, sure that individual needs to be taken to task.

That's not a "Blame the troops" thing. When one peson does something wrong or illegal, they need to face the conquence of that action.

But then the freepers are all for supporting actual criminals, like bush/cheney and company.

[RyomaSakamoto]

10. that's where i see most of the reaction

in those specific threads not to mention tons of vitriol directed at the admin for their murderous illegal policies.

[UL_Approved]

4. I have NEVER heard this statement before

We're the ones who talk about Bush as the problem, not the troops. If you EVER hear that 'troops are to blame' here, please report the thread or post to the admins immediately.

[flowomo]

6. this is the source of some of the discomfort:

http://www.hundredpercenter.com/

[UL_Approved]

23. Damn

That is the WORST line of propaganda and bullshit that I have seen in a long time. A COMPLETE misrepresentation of what is presented here. Its no wonder that the far-right sees us at DU as un-American: they confuse us with our national leaders.

[drdtroit]

46. These are some sick fucks! n/t

[Redleg]

9. Here is the thread....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=973937&mesg_id=973937&page=

Now tell me with a straight face that some of the posters aren't taking delight in painting the troops as homicidal maniacs?

[UdoKier]

58. Some of them are sickos.

Watching F-911, seeing these KIDS delighting in killing while listening to the song "Burn, motherfucker Burn" turned my stomach. A lot of them DON'T give a crap who they kill, and they will come home with emotional baggage upt the wazoo. MUCH worse than Gulf War I since there has been so much death on our side and so much "collateral damage".

And there are THOUSANDs of young Ron Kovics out there now, trying to cobble something meaningful out of their broken bodies and lives.

I have a complex mix of feelings toward these young men. Compassion - yes. with some of them, disgust - and no admiration at all. The only troops I admire in this war ar those who have educated themselves and spoken out or become conscientious objectors.

To kill thousands on the orders of your country is scary, but to contradict those orders because of conscience is the very definition of courage.

[Redleg]

95. You didn't answer my question.

You conveniently ignored it to make your own point.

Do you realize that we have some soldiers in Iraq who are helping people (or at least trying to) by improving sanitation, healthcare, and public infrastructure? Do you condemn them because they are over there and didn't have the courage to "get out" as conscientious objectors?

[UdoKier]

98. I don't condemn them but I disagree with the choice to go.

As I said, at that age, I didn't know any better either, but there was much evidence even beforehand that this invasion was illegal and immoral. And I disagree with your premise. Very few of us "blame the soldiers first". WE blame Bush, then Rummy, then the brass, and then any soldiers who do things they should know to be wrong.

1100 American lives have been pissed away on Iraq for NOTHING. I don't take that lightly and the families of those soldiers didn't deserve to lose their children.

But as I said, I don't ADMIRE what they are doing (I do respect them, though). I admire those who refused to go.

[Djinn]

100. only after they also helped DESTROY

the sanitation and infrastructure, whether they wanted to or not - Iraq wasn't Afghanistan.

There's a difference between "blaming/hating the troops" and holding those who are committing crimes (even if one doesn't concede the entire war is a crime) accountable.

There's a difference between holding troops accountable and relieving those giving the orders of any resposnibility

Also there is a difference between saying one doesn't support the war and saying you want harm to come to coalition forces.

Pretending every soldier in Iraq is a freedom loving, Kerry voting, Iraqi helping nice guy is as stupid as beleiving they're all blood thirsty gung ho redneck Bush voters.

[DianeG5385]

11. No one is blaming the troops!!!

They are doing what they have been ordered to do. They HAVE NO CHOICE!!! It's the civilian leadership that's to blame and the incompetence is shocking.

[Redleg]

12. Have you read the posts?

Give me a break.

[flowomo]

14. you really should click either of the links above your post....

before you make that claim.

[Redleg]

18. I can make the claim based on what I have read here over the last

few years. It's not just about what is being posted here tonight. If you haven't ever seen soldier-bashing at DU you haven't been paying attention. Most DUers don't engage in this but there are some who seem to look for every opportunity to do so.

[flowomo]

19. excuse me? I have been agreeing with you throughout this discussion....

[Redleg]

22. I apologize- I thought you were referring to my posts.

Thank you for your support. I am a bit testy right now.

[Zorra]

13. A question, Redleg -

Do you think American soldiers would kill me or you right now if Bu$h ordered them to?

[Redleg]

15. How is that relevant?

We are not shooting at them.

[Zorra]

32. Let me re-phrase: If I was just sitting in my house and Bu$h ordered

soldiers to attack and kill my family because he wanted my land, and I shot back in self defense and then they killed me and my family, would that be ok?

Was it ok for nazi soldiers to roundup Jews and gas them because Hitler told them to?

Individuals can make their own moral choices. I think that if a leader is wrong and evil and wants to kill people because he wants to take over their country and steal their oil, it is better for a soldier to refuse to fight and to go to jail rather than to kill innocent people. Personally, that is what I would do.

As much as our government would like to convince us that the Iraqi Resistance is basically a bunch of imported al Qaeda terrorists, I do not really believe that this is the case.

I think most of the Resistance fighters are Iraqis that feel they are trying to save their country from being conquered by another country.

I would never go to fight in Iraq for Bu$h, the whole thing makes no sense to me, especially since he lied about the reasons for the war. But if someone attacked the US I would be out in the street fighting off invaders with sticks and stones if necessary.

But I think you are right, a lot of these kids are brainwashed 20 yr. olds that are being physically and psychologically mangled by some very evil civilian leaders, and we need to cut them slack. I really feel sorry for them.

There is a special hell for people like Bu$h and the PNAC.

Monsters.

[wtmusic]

40. Well put Zorra

although the the "brainwashed" twinkie defense goes a little too far. These kids know what they're doing; they know that there were no WMD's, and that Saddam was not a threat. Yet they go on killing. I'd go as far to say that quite a few of them are enjoying themselves. A few have stepped out and refused to fight. The fact that there haven't been more is a sad commentary on the state of morality in the US.

[Redleg]

70. How would you know anything about the "state of morality?"

We are all pissing in the wind here with our pronouncements of what is happening and what is not. Do we really know what is going on over there?

[Zorra]

83. One thing we know - a whole lot of innocent people have been killed

and tens of thousands more have been maimed because Bu$h lied us into a war against a sovereign nation that presented no clear and present danger or imminent threat to the people or the borders of the United States of America.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm sure Resident Bu$h would like to see it.

[Redleg]

86. I don't disagree with that point.

Many thousands of Iraqis, some innocent women and children, have been killed. I do not wish to sit in moral judgment of our soldiers, many of whem probably did not take part in illegal killings. I do not hold our troops collectively culpable for this war and it's terrible consequences. I think that many of us can agree that we need to bring our troops home as soon as possible before we squander more lives, both American and Iraqi, in this deepening quagmire.

Peace.

[Zorra]

88. Yeah, I wish we could just bring them home. I feel so bad for them.

Peace, friend.

[Djinn]

101. neither are most of the Iraqi's

that have been killed since the invasion and it's generally accepted that shooting at a foreign power occupying your nation is well within the bounds of international law

[RyomaSakamoto]

17. they ask that very question of our marines

"Do you think you would kill american civilians right now if ordered to?"

hmmmm... if he said we were terrorist, PROBABLY.

[NorthernSpy]

16. combatants are not innocents by definition, but I think all here agree...

... that the leaders must shoulder the lion's share of the blame. I haven't heard anyone here say otherwise.

The point that some have made is that individuals have free will and are responsible for their actions; that the Nuremberg principles apply to all; and that participation in this war is not to something that can rightly be approved of. And mind you, if we were discussing other countries' wars and other countries' soldiers, not one bit of what I just said would be in the least controversial.


I believe that this is the position you are twisting and mischaracterizing, though I can't guess why you might wish to do that.


If Americans on the whole truly disapproved of participation in wars of aggression, the government's ability to take us to war would be severely crippled. It is the self-announced "troop supporters" whose attitude enables warmongering and gets soldiers killed. Why don't you take up your beef with them, and quit fancying yourself offended by those few who aren't applauding the mayhem?

[Redleg]

20. Are you familiar with Milgram's obediance to authority studies or the

Zimbardo prison study? Those studies, and others, show that otherwise "normal" people can engage in frighteningly rotten behavior under certain circumstances. The extreme pressures of warfare can promote situations where troops will behave in ways they would normally find repellant. To deny that situation factors can heavily influence behavior is to admit ignorance of human behavior.

Don't make inferences about why I addressed this issue at DU. If you haven't seen people derogate the troops here at DU then you haven't paid attention. I am not doing this because I am a freeper. I have been at DU since 2002. I am opposed to this war and believe Bush has put our troops into a very fucked up situation. My idea of supporting the troops is to bring them home.

[UL_Approved]

26. What you say...

...is brought up in many of the replies to the thread that you link to. We understand the horrors and destruction of war, including the destruction of individuals. Two things for you to consider though:

1. The troop in question is a Sergeant. He is in a command position. The new enlisted men and women do the dirty work while he sits back and gives orders.

2. The use of LRAS and other technologies make warfare a video game, as many here at DU have pointed out. This guy didn't have to be anywhere near the people he had taken out. He may have still been in danger, but the people on the rooftops probably couldn't even see the Humvee or other troops in the area before they were killed.

It isn't just the President and Pentagon officials who are to blame. Bad people exist at all levels of the system. Leadership is not limited to the White House. For every one of these payback addicts that get plastered up in the news, there is probably a dozen other troops and offices who just hang their heads and do the work in spite of the killing. Not every person in the world is a blood-thirsty predator at heart, even in the military.

[Redleg]

28. Sergeants don't "sit back and give orders." At least not in the Army

I remember. I agree that warfare has become very pushbutton, removing people from the bloody consequences of their actions.

I do believe there are troops who resent the bullshit going on and grit their teeth and complete their missions. I feel bad for them as well as for those troops who don't know any better.

We used to say in the Army- there are no bad units, just bad leaders. I believe the Army is filled with leaders who are true believers in Bush's war and in his christian crusade. Many of my fellow officers were conservatives.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. No, but I've read Browning's study of Police Battalion 101...

..which came to the same conclusions about otherwise "normal" people. Not sure why acknowledging that in any way lessens the responsibility of those who commit atrocities, or makes it that we should *support* them...

btw, I don't blame US troops for being in Iraq. That's wholly and solely on the shoulders of the Bush administration. But I don't support US troops either. From what I've seen, *supporting the troops* means pretending they're not an occupying military force that's killing large numbers of Iraqi civilians. It means forgetting all about those Iraqi civilians while constantly getting outraged that anyone DARE fight back against US troops. While I don't support US troops and *gasp* don't really feel particularly moved to outrage when combatants get injured or killed as part of an invasion/occupying force, and don't fall for the line that US troops don't know any better cause they're just following orders and they've been lied to (that would mean I'd think US troops are dopey mindless sheeple), I've got the utmost respect and can show huge amounts of support for any troop that speaks out against what they're doing in Iraq. Same goes for Israeli refuseniks in the Occupied Territories...

Violet..

[buff2]

21. I'm not supporting the fuckers who voted for Bu$h.......

I don't feel sorry for any of them that keep voting for the same SOB that put them there in the first place. If they want to die for that miserable fuck,then I say let em! All I've ever heard was how happy the troops are with bu$h and how the majority of them voted for him. Anyone,and I mean ANYONE who helped get this bastard back in for another 4 years of terror and hell can KISS MY ASS.......and they will get what they deserve. Nuff said.

[Redleg]

24. Do they deserve to die because they voted for Bush?

Don't be such a callous ass. We are talking about young men and women here, many of who believe the Bush propaganda that they are making our country safer. They have been lied to by Bush and by their military leaders- they believe they are doing this for the country.

They don't know what a fuckstick Bush is, they don't know how he has left their asses hanging out over there.

[mike_c]

36. they deserve to face prosecution...

...if they've participated in war crimes.

[buff2]

45. Come on......

if they are that stupid,then they shouldn't be in possession of any weapons. Anyone with a working brain KNOWS by now what that stupid bastard is all about. Hell,I knew it the first time I ever saw his goofy ass face and heard him (try to) speak for the first time.It's like a "Jim Jones" thing all over again. Only this time MILLIONS have been duped and would drink a vat of poison kool-aid if bu$h said so. God, it's so embarrassing to be an American these days. I was sooooo anxious to get rid of him,I think he is such an ignorant cocky lowlife,and now thanks to all these "moral values" fucks look what we ended up with. I'm sorry,I am so pissed I can hardly control myself. I feel like I've crossed over into the twilight zone. :puke:

[Redleg]

68. There are many examples here of condescension towards the troops

People here have said: they are stupid kool-aid drinkers, they are rednecks with automatic weapons, they are homicidal maniac losers, etc.

I take that shit personally because I was a soldier and I led many soldiers who were good people, who did their duty without grumbling (too much), and who believed strongly that they were serving their country and therefore doing something worthwhile.

I am not saying that soldiers do not commit war crimes or should not be held accountable for war crimes. I do believe that before we reflexivly holler "war crimes" we ought to know if they occurred. I do believe the leaders of these soldiers should bear a bigger blame for any crimes than the soldiers themselves. And that means going up the chain of command (unlike what happened re: Abu Ghraib).

By the way, I never said attacking the troops was widespread at DU. It does seem to occur with regularity, however.

[buff2]

84. Why is it that the majority of the troops voted for bu$h?

The first 4 years should have been a wake-up call to them.....do they really want to die for someone that sent them to war based on nothing but lies? If I had been in the military and was sent to war on nothing but greed and lies I would be ready to tear bu$h's brainless head off.....but noooooo.......they think he's better than God almighty. That's why I am so pissed....why do they not care enough about themselves,their safety and their families than to not reject that insane phony? I was positive the majority would be so eager to get rid of him,but boy was I wrong! The secrecy with this administration,and bu$h's arrogant bullying attitude and his destroying America's image all over the world......my God,what is WRONG with people in this country? How is it everyone can see through that dimwit but most of the American people? This is one of the worst disasters in American history. The America I grew up in and loved so much is GONE. I doubt things will ever get back to normal now that the nazi brownshirts have taken over. :grr:

[Redleg]

87. We don't yet know who the majority voted for.

I expect that a good number of enlisted soldiers voted against Bush this time around.

[buff2]

97. We'll never know......

I would feel a lot better if that was true,but since when do we get the truth reported to us? Oh wait! Now they can say they've got over half the country's vote. We are just a pimple on the repuke ass of society. :crazy:

[Jack_DeLeon]

25. While I dont necessarily agree...

I've read several posts that stated that since the military vote mostly went for Bush that they too should be held accountable for what happens.

[Redleg]

27. Ah- collective accountability. Let them all pay for the sins of a few.

Does that mean we should want the troops to get killed in Iraq?

[NorthernSpy]

33. I consider myself PART of the accountable collective...

... because citizens enable (and pay for) aggression. Did you really think that anyone here claims that only the soldiers are responsible for their actions?

Since I readily admit that the blame for the war is partly mine, and I certainly do NOT hope that someone kills me for it, then why would I hope that a soldier would get killed for his own share of the blame?

Were you under the impression that we were claiming to speak from a position of personal moral superiority?

Right is right, and though it is unpopular, I will continue to acknowledge it even as I fall short of it myself.

[drdtroit]

49. "Ah- collective accountability. Let them all pay for the sins of a few"

In the same way the commanders say "Kill 'em all and let God sort them out".

[Redleg]

62. Yes, that is unfortunate.

EOM

[Zinfandel]

29. Support the troops, SEND THEM HOME!!!!

[progressivebydesign]

31. You're out of your mind.. NO ONE is blaming the trooops..

typical freeper bullshit.

[Redleg]

65. If you want to call me a Freeper, do it to my face.

I have seen a number of threads derogating the troops. If you refuse to believe that then that is your perogative. Don't try to insult me with this "freeper" bullshit.

[jmatthan]

34. Many on this thread seem to have very short memories

Don't you remember anything about the Loyalty Oaths, the dead US Soldiers mom who was put to jail for protesting Laura Bush, the ejection and man-handling of protestors at Bush Republican rallies, etc., etc.

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland

[mike_c]

35. where does the legitimate duty of a soldier end...

...and war crime begin? Were the Japanese simply doing what they were trained to do in Nanking? Were the murders of all men and boys in Lidice defensible because occupying Czechoslovakia was "an almost impossible job?" How about because their leader was nuts?

How is the murder of 100,000 Iraqi civilians different? You answer that question and maybe I'll be willing to concede a little more respect for those nice American kids who've killed all those Iraqis.

According to U.S. policy, set at Nuremburg, war crime begins somewhere on this side of participating in a war of aggression. According to the Geneva Conventions it begins somewhere on this side of mistreatment of civilians under occupation. That tells me that those nice American kids are war criminals, just like the Schultzpoleitzi at Lidice and the Imperial Army at Nanking.

I've posted repeatedly that I give unqualified support to U.S. troops performing their duty to protect the nation and uphold the Constitution. But that's not what's happening in Iraq. I'm not a "good German," Redleg.

[BernieBear]

37. I don't blame the troops. I pray for them. I cry for them.

I am grateful to them. I hate that they are where they are and having to do what they are doing. And they are doing there job as best they can. I am blaming and administration that did not serve, would not let their children serve and do not care about those they send into battle.

i support our troops. i oppose the war.

BernieBear

[wtmusic]

38. I don't 'support the troops'

those hot, tired, and dirty soldiers are using the best equipment on the planet to kill Iraqis for defending their own country from a foreign invasion.



It's murder. Fuck that 'support the troops' shit. Here's a soldier I support:

http://www.freecamilo.org/

[kittenpants]

51. I don't disagree that the Iraqi people are suffering the most here,

but that doesn't mean we have a clue about what it's like for our troops either. I admire those who have been strong enough to step out of conflict that they see as unjust, but most of the soldiers are young and they want to believe the propaganda that they're killing bad people in order to get through this situation. Plus, like in VietNam they don't always know who their enemies are in Iraq so that adds to the us vs. them mentality.

I'm not defending the atrocities, just saying that MOST of us don't know what it's like for the soldiers. And the soldiers wouldn't be put in that situation if not for civilian LEADERS.

[K8-EEE]

39. I'm Sick Of These Kinds Of Posts

I personally have sent a care package every month since the war started from my family -- I'm working on a phone card drive for the holidays for the soldiers in Walter Reed in my kids' schools and have asked DUers for help too.

The VAST MAJORITY here blame Bush and not the troops. If a handful of nutcases disagree why highlight that by giving them their own thread. Why don't you talk about those of us going out of our way to support them?

[TheKingfish]

41. Cause he is worried about what some fascist website thinks

Websites with people like Ann Coulter who would describe him as a 'jock-sniffer for the military'.

[K8-EEE]

42. Well Exactly And Even IF.

There are posts that disapprove of the troops or whatever shit, aren't they free to feel that way and express it?? What is this, FR? I'm sick of all the scolding, in general. You can put people on "ignore" or whatever...you can post a disagreement but I don't like it when people take it upon themselves to do "you people" type lectures.

[IrateCitizen]

48. No, it's because Redleg either is or has been in the military...

... and knows that it's bad enough that the soldiers have been royally FUCKED by the "leaders" of our country, and that it's just plain WRONG and HYPOCRITICAL for us to pile on them as well.

BTW, I've also been in the military, believe that the entire Iraq invasion was wrong, but will NEVER take out my frustrations with policy on the soldiers.

[Redleg]

64. You are right- I was an Army officer.

I appreciate your understanding of my position.

[IrateCitizen]

67. So was I. And I opposed the war. That's why I understand.

I know a lot of people over there right now. I've gotten to know lots more who were there during the initial push through the veterans' movement speaking out against the war.

Since I've come to personally know those who are serving and have served, as you have, it utterly amazes me that people can be so disconnected as to bring up something so counterproductive as blaming the troops for the leaders putting them in an impossible situation.

It's easy to engage in moral purity when you're not the one whose ass is on the line.

[Redleg]

75. Agreed. We sit in our comfortable homes and ivory towers

and sneer at the fools struggling in the muck.

[IrateCitizen]

78. Yeah. I actually filed for CO prior to the Iraq invasion...

Espirit d'Corps aside, I just knew it was wrong and immoral, and couldn't bring myself to participate. If my Reserve unit would have been deployed, I most likely would have refused and faced court-martial.

I told my Battalion Commander and Company Commander at the time just as much.

That being said, I would NEVER presume to denounce any of those who obeyed the order to deploy. My decision was a personal one, one that I would have to live with. I was making it based on my moral beliefs. It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to presume to impose my morals on others. That is wholly their decision to make.

Luckily, I wasn't confronted with this ultimate choice. My battalion never got mobilized in its entirety, and I was discharged 01 September because I turned down promotion to CPT for the second time, resulting in an automatic outprocessing per Army regulations.

But having had my ass on the line in this manner, I know that I could never presume to dictate that decision to anyone else.

[Redleg]

79. I am glad you didn't have to go over there against your wishes.

I was allowed to go into the IRR in 1992 with one year remaining on my reserve commitment. Since the Army was being downsized, they didn't seem to mind. In 1999 a Field Artillery branch manager from St. Louis contacted me and told me to crap or get off the pot. He said I would either need to perform some active duty or resign my commission. I did the latter and haven't regretted it at all. I earned my commission to defend my country, not to participate in this kind of small-minded bully bullshit that Bush has gotten us in to.

It is nice to see a fellow ex-soldier here.

[G_j]

91. as you know IC

I registered for CO status during the VN war. I was turned down, appealed but was called for the draft anyway after a few years in college. With lottery #34, I was not going to escape the draft.
At my physical I told the shrink flat out that I would not cooperate with their criminal war and that I was completely prepared to go to prison. Little did I know the shrink would recommend that I not be drafted at that time. I was incredibly lucky.
You won't find many posts where I come down heavy on our troops.
On the other hand, I know that there are choices along the line.

[Redleg]

63. I never went to a "fascist website."

Please don't insult my intelligence.

[Pastiche423]

43. I got my kills ... I just love my job'

THAT kind of troop?

No, I do not support killing machines.

[Skittles]

44. you will never see me doing that

not at all

[requiem99]

47. Maybe people are following Guiliani's lead?

[UdoKier]

50. I don't necessarily blame troops since they're mostly dumb kids.

When I was that age, I wouldn't have questioned this BS war.

I feel bad for them that their parents didn't teach them anything about how this country works - that "war is a racket" as Smedley Butler described it.

By the time they are old enough to register for selective service (or return to their first country of citizenship and renounce their US citizenship) they will be well-educated on the fact that most of the wars of the last century have been about nothing more than protecting American business interests, no glory, no freedom, just MONEY.

Unless there is an all-out invasion of the US mainland, I would disapprovve of them joining the armed services under any circumstances. Any other war staged by the US is suspect, no matter how noble the rationale.

And I served in the Navy and I'm glad I got out before the last Gulf war in 1990. I admire some of the miltary structure, etc. But it was shitty work for shitty pay with mostly a bunch of ignorant pigs - there are even gang members in the service now, and they don't renouncce their gang affiliations when they join. I made a couple good friends back then, but you couldn't pay me enough to go back in the Navy. I'd much rather live in a dumpster.

[ClassWarrior]

53. What the hell are you talking about??

This isn't www.rudygiuliani.com, ya know...

NGU.

[offcenter]

54. Blame Lt. Calley

and leaders like Westmoreland who ordered the atrocities.

Blame the troops who fire on civilians and say "burn motherfucker burn" as well as Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush ...

[seabeyond]

55. they are embracing the dark side

that is all. rosaries on tank guns, chariot races. going after satan in a crusade

naked girls all over there barracks, having fellow female sodiers make lesbian porn videos in most degrading of ways.

the have lost all sense of rightness. not good for them, especially not good for the innocent lives that are living in this mess

[seabeyond]

57. and i blame the leaders

that they encouraged and allowed this. i do blame the leaders. soldiers also have their part. i say this in love to these souls. i am a mama, i know "boys" that are over their, i have sons

[archineas]

56. I don't blame the troops.

If anyone is ever to blame for a failed military action, it's those who planned and directed that action who should be held responsible.

At heart, I am a pacifist, and do not believe that war is a justifiable enterprise, however, I do believe that the greatest support anyone can provide to US forces in a hostile environment or in the midst of armed conflict, is to hold them in your heart, and pray that they do their jobs quickly, efficiently, as casuatly free as possible, and that they come back home safe.

Anyone who wears the uniform of the US military during a time of war is by default, a hero.

j

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

59. The roof...

the roof...the roof is on fire.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Bridget Burke]

60. The blamers are a minority but do exist. Two kinds I've noticed:

1) Ideological purists who've studied these matters in depth (in books & seminars, of course) & who really feel above it all.

2) Fake DU'ers who want to cause dissension & make us look bad. Some of them do a fairly good imitation of #1.

[rman]

61. how many? looks like a small minority to me. n/t

-

[DrWeird]

66. Why do people forgive the troops

because "they were just following orders?"

[aquart]

69. I haven't blamed one troop and I don't know anyone who has.

Got any links to back up this smear?

[Redleg]

71. Why don't you read some of the responses to my post?

On second thought, I will delete what I just typed.

[IrateCitizen]

76. Ask skjpm and info_being, for starters...

skjpm started a thread on Nov. 3 expressing the fact that he no longer gave a shit about our troops or their families, that they could die for all he cared. info_being chimed in and backed him up.

The thread was pulled by the moderators, but not until it had generated close to 50 responses total. Most were denouncing the tack that these posters had taken, but there were a few expressing various degrees of agreement.

[IrateCitizen]

72. And DUers prove they're the mirror image of Freepers once again...

How many here have looked at the way that Freepers hate gays and just shook their heads in disgust? For the majority of them, it's because they don't personally know any gay people. Therefore, they're some kind of abstraction.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that those DUers who criticize what the ground troops are doing (by that I mean the enlisted and lower officers) and openly state their disdain for them don't personally know anybody who is over there or who has been over there. The troops are just an "abstraction", and by treating them as such, it is much easier to engage in exercises of moral purity.

Those of us who know people who are or have been there at least recognize the difference. I thought that was supposed to be the difference between us and the Freepers. I guess I was wrong -- intolerance is just as alive on the left as the right.

[Redleg]

74. Someone will challenge you to provide links to posts derogating the troops

Not I, because I have seen them, some on this thread.

[Dangerman]

77. The only troops I support...

Are the Michael Pedersens and Brent Petrikens. But not the scum who run Abul-Grahib prison (the soldiers who posed in front of the tortured prisoners).

[leesa]

80. There's not that much of it, but part of the reason might be because

so many troops ENJOY wasting Ragheads.

[IrateCitizen]

81. Do you realize that's part of the indoctrination process?

I'd suggest you read On Killing by LTC (ret.) Dave Grossman. Grossman is a former airborne ranger and USMA psychology professor who has devoted himself to the study of the effects of killing on the human psyche. He spends a great deal of time looking at the military's conditioning process. For instance...

This is not the first time the enemy has been "dehumanized". In fact, it's been a regular occurence, because it's much easier for a soldier to kill another person in combat if they don't recognize that other person as a human being, but as something lesser. Of course, such training tends to kind of "get away" at times, as evidenced by the war crimes that inevitably take place on all sides of a conflict.

Furthermore, the military has its soldiers shoot on silloutte "pop-up" targets so that their shooting in combat is more of a conditioned response than a thinking act. They do this because it's an unnatural act to kill another human being in such a manner.

Once again, if you want to blame anyone, blame those in power who so flippantly treat kids in this manner before they're old enough to really know any better, and then often leave them on their own to deal with the huge psychological scars that come as a result. The kids didn't want this -- they only wanted to serve their country, and possibly improve their own lives int he process. Like Michael Moore says at the end of F-9/11, they deserve much better than this.

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Since when have Iraqi civilians been the enemy?

Did the book mention the same sort of indoctrination for German troops during WWII? Yr going to have to explain to me why indoctrination absolves troops of any invasion force from responsibility for crimes carried out against civilian populations. 'The kids didn't want this'? Then why do I see some of 'the kids' on telly and hear them on the radio saying that what they're doing in Iraq is exactly what they want? I think it's sophomoric to make a blanket statement that every troop holds exactly the same opinion about the war in Iraq. Some think it's great and others don't. But regardless of what any of them think, they're legitimate targets for resistance, and no-one has yet to explain why I, especially because I'm not an American, should be outraged over US military casualties. Strange thing is that these people aren't halfway as much into worrying about whether people are outraged over the killing of Iraqi civilians...

Violet...

[IrateCitizen]

90. Stop putting words into my mouth

The other poster said something about them wanting to kill "Ragheads". That's what I responded to. Don't try and extrapolate things out of it that I never said just because it fits into your argument.

I'm ex-military, and involved in the veterans movement against the war. Out of all the troops in theater right now, there is probably a solid 25-30% who are against what we are doing. When you talk about those who think the operation is a clusterfuck (but it might be fixable), you're getting a majority. Most of these folks just want to get home, but they stay because they feel a sense of responsibility for their buddy, to make sure he/she gets home alive.

There is never any excuse for atrocities in war. Unfortunately, war is an environment that encourages atrocities of its own momentum. That is yet another reason why is should only be engaged in as an absolute last resort.

Most of the soldiers fighting over there are kids, 18-21 years of age. If they act like they're taking enjoyment in what they're doing, it's because most of them don't know any better and want to appear "hooah". It's what they've been trained to do. Most of them don't know what the buzzsaw is really all about, and the more that find out, the more that will speak out against this illegal and immoral war and occupation.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. I wasn't...

Do you really think the sort of troops that want to kill 'ragheads' make any differentiation between combatants and civilians? To them, Iraqi civilians are the enemy....

So, are people expected to 'support the troops' just because they're American and they're 'our boys'? Mind you, I'm not an American, and don't support US troops anymore than I'd support the troops of any other country that stages an illegal invasion and occupation. I can understand and sympathise on a personal level with families of those killed, just the same as I feel sympathy for the families of any combatant from any country on the loss of a family member, but their deaths are an occupational hazard of being a troop, and I find posts like the one I saw in another thread claiming that they're just as much victims as Iraqi civilians pretty hard to swallow. And I have a good reason for not supporting US troops and what they're doing in Iraq. I opposed the war from the start, so it'd be really contradictory to then turn around and support them and what they're doing. For the most part they're pawns, and the only solution is to get them out of there. The US committed a grand fuck-up in invading Iraq, and these attempts to 'fix it' are plans by neo-cons in the Bush administration who don't understand that some things need to be 'fixed' by the people of Iraq, and that a continuing US presence in Iraq is a fertile breeding ground for *terrorism*..

Violet..

[IrateCitizen]

104. I support them as human beings, just as I support the Iraqis as well

There's a difference between supporting them as human beings, and supporting them as soldiers. I can't say that I support them as soldiers because I don't in any way support their mission. I can say I support them all as human beings because I hold hope that we will all find a way out of this cycle of violence, and that we will reach a point where lives on both sides are actually valued rather than discounted in numerous ways.

I also realize that the ones I will have the most interaction with are our soldiers serving over there, that many of them will be psychologically damaged by what they saw and did over there, and will more than anything need someone to put their arm around them when they come home and help them to get through it. In that sense, I fully support the troops -- as human beings, not as soldiers.

Is my stance clear now?

[Violet_Crumble]

105. Yes, that's clear...

...and a stance I can understand and not feel that it's conflicting with an opposition to the war. Vietnam was a bit before my time, but one of my uncles is a veteran and he had problems ever since. I wouldn't have supported the troops in Vietnam either, but no way does that extend to not wanting them to get the help they need when they get back. I've got a lot of respect for those that do help on the psychological side of things...

Violet...

[MattG]

94. All I can say is, I agree

I talked to a marine who was eager to go into combat, I asked him how he could kill another man and he told me that the military trains you to have a "switch" that you can flip in different situations. The switch allows you to kill someone without feeling any guilt.

[PretzelWarrior]

82. give it a f*cking rest already.

I don't hear hardly ANYONE bad mouthing the troops...and that is even including on THIS site..one of the most flaming liberal I've seen out there.

However, if a soldier is ordered to execute a civilian, he better disobey that order.

[Redleg]

89. You give it a rest and try reading some threads before you dismiss

my allegations. I have a right to express my views here at DU as do you. Don't fucking tell me to give it a rest because you don't want to hear me say something that offends your own views.

[Redleg]

92. Go to this link to see what I am talking about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2657582&mesg_id=2657582

For you weenies who called me a fool, read it and weep.

[stanwyck]

93. I'm very sensitive to any troop bashing

since I'm Mom to a 21-yr. old Marine who has been to Fallujah and will return to Iraq in January.
I've seen very little troop bashing at DU. I have seen thoughtful disagreements with how our troops are being used. I have read posts from people concerned about all the people who die in war, not just Americans.
Soldiers who brag of "getting their kill" should be denigrated. We don't have to be part of that ugliness and base behavior.
My son says in Iraq, you don't know who the enemy is. The Iraqi "friendlies" look exactly like the insurgents. It's madness. He says he just wants to protect his fellow Marines. He's a liberal who voted absentee ballot for Kerry.
The troops are people. The people they kill are people. DUers care more about the troops than the majority of people. Caring means paying attention to reality and not just repeating platitudes. We serve the troops best by knowing the truth.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frederic Bastiat]

102. Redleg, i'm having a hard time supporting the troops these days

Your argument makes perfect sense though, lets just say i'm neutral on the matter.

[Frederic Bastiat]

103. Redleg, i'm having a hard time supporting the troops these days

Your argument makes perfect sense though, lets just say i'm neutral on the matter.