Why can't we compromise on parental notification and 'partial birth'

[rockydem]

abortion?

I admit that I'm not that up on this issue. I'm not even sure what the rules are now. But let me just say broadly, it makes sense that a youngster should notify her parents about an abortion (unless incest is involved of course).

And what is 'partial-birth' abortion? I know this is the right wing framing things unfairly. But what is it? How common is it? It seems there should be some kind of cut off in fetal development after which abortion is barred (barring health of mom, etc). Are there any cut offs now as to when you can't abort?

Edit: It sounds from some responses that PBA is used only to save the life of a mother? If this is true that in and of itself sounds like a reasonable compromise on the issue?

[Trajan]

1. I think the divide lies here :

The RW wants to ban PPB WITHOUT consideration of the health of the mother: ... to utterly and completely ban it IN ALL CASES ....

The issue with notification is more murky ... some claim it will force victims of parental rape to notify the perpetrator of their intent to obtain an abortion .....

Shrugs ....

[rockydem]

7. then I say call them out on

They are the ones who won't compromise!

[jdj]

2. well, we could be like republicans and forget that

there are actual human beings involved, or we could stick to our principles and convictions and fight for the women's reproductive rights. If dems piss off half the population we will never win another election.

google on "late-term abortion" to see what it is.

[supernova]

3. It's called D & E

Dialation and Extraction. That's the medical term for this procedure. Use it in good health.

It's performed only rarely and to save the life of the mother. Usually the fetus is brain dead and the head is oversized. Literally, the baby can be stuck in the birth canal.


Edit: HELL NO! I'm NOT compromising on either issue. It's a matter of deep, personal morality to me. You don't get to pick and choose which women in which dire situation gets to have her suffering relieved. :grr:

[DrWeird]

4. Maybe you should get up on the issues.

Because I support a woman's right to choose regardless whether or not she's old enough to vote, or smoke cigarettes. And that she has a right not to be beaten. And I believe in a woman's right not to have to carry a baby born without a brain, or die in childbirth.

But hell, why don't we just comprimise on ignorance. It'll all be so much easier that way.

[WindRavenX]

5. FUCK NO

NOT AN INCH.

[rockydem]

9. not even on parental notification for an underage kid?

always of course excepting rape/incest, etc....

[WindRavenX]

11. No

When the young woman does not want her parents to know, it's HER choice- probably for good reason.

[Djinn]

25. exactly

kids with half decent relationships with their parents WILL tell them, if they don't it's for a reason. What's the point of it anyway? is it to give the parent's the ability to step in and over-rule the kids decision? or is it just so the girl can experience more grief?

Either way if you tell a 15 year old - unless this pregnancy is the result of incest we have to tell your parents - do you think that most girls would then just say "yep it's incest"

If you take away this privacy (and parents do not own their children) then it'll extend to other things teenagers wont go to doctors for contraceptive advice, they wont go to talk about STD's or to get treatment for that, they wont see them about drug/addiction issues.

It'd be nice if kids could talk to their parents but frankly if your child wont talk to you it's maybe time to ask why not.

[jdj]

15. do you want more dumpster babies?? because that's what will happen.

babies in dumpsters, babies in cardboard boxes, a babies in hefty bags on the side of the road. Not that that doesn't already happen, but it will happen even more.

[JimmyJazz]

6. Harper's Magazine had an excellent article on "partial birth"

abortion in it's November issue. I don't know if the article is in here or not, but here is their web page.

http://www.harpers.org/MostRecentCover.html

[Francesca]

13. yes I read that last month

[Anakin Skywalker]

8. The Whole Problem

is that the rightwing doesn't want a compromise of any kind at all. They want to outlaw ALL abortions. Period. That's their end-goal. Some of them might cleverly couch their words in languages that make them seem like they are reasonable people who only want to ban certain types of abortions. They know they have to start out with smaller goals first. You just cannot read or accept their words on the surface.

[rockydem]

10. then they can be exposed on these issues

Most people only hear the catch-phrases. Most don't know the details. Why can't we, as a party, talk about this issue in a reasonable way? It's almost like we are afraid of it.

[MNBiker]

12. Parents need all the help they can get.

Even if you have a judge fill in as the parent. It is important to keep our own kids safe. I don't think this issue is the camel nose under the tent, just common sense.

[supernova]

16. It will be safe

if she goes to a hospital or other licensed clinic. It won't be safe if she goes to a back-alley butcher with unsanitary instruments and dirty hands.

And what do you do if she's pregnant by a family member -- her own father. Notifying the parents is THE LAST thing you would want to do in that situation.

And exactly how much of your sexual life did you share with your parents at that age?

[phylny]

20. Everyone doesn't live with Mike and Carol Brady.

Please. I know plenty of families where the life of the daughter would be in danger if she came home pregnant. As a parent, I would of course want to know how to best help my daughter. However, every family is not like MY family, every parent isn't like me.

[Pepperbelly]

22. maybe you have a point about that in one regard ...

With a judge sitting in for the parents in cases where incest is alleged, a judge could also get the ball rolling on finding out WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED.

I mean she IS a minor and someone sure as shit had carnal knowledge.

[Bad Thoughts]

14. My 'faith-based' opinion

Jewish law says that the health of the woman is not only sufficient reason to abort the fetus, it is mandatory. And as soon as the physicians makes this prognosis, the woman should be able to act--it should not even go before a court of law. It should be decided between the woman and the doctor. If the fundies want to involve a medical ethicist (which any hospital should have), ok, but the woman should not have to wait for more than a few hours. Period.

[Mandate My Ass]

17. Why should we?

Equal rights mean exactly that.

They don't compromise on anything, ever. Partial birth abortion is an invention of the fetus fetishists to gain support for their anti-woman campaign. No doctor, anywhere, would perform this procedure as an elective measure, arbitrarily at the request of a pregnant women who had suddenly changed her mind about carrying her pregnancy to term.

[rockydem]

19. If what you say is true - then we have failed as a party

to get our message out there....cuz not even I knew what our answer was to this right wing claim. And they are getting their message out there, and we seemingly do nothing to combat it.

[Mandate My Ass]

21. "WE" haven't failed anything

the so-called "liberal media" only reports what the fundies want reported because that is where their bread is buttered.

Logic, it either works or it doesn't. And if not, it's not the fault of those purporting it.

[Ducks In A Row]

18. What I heard, PBA (which isn't what it really called)

it only ever done to save the woman's life or health. So all this angst about it is useless, since no woman ever has it done "for convenience" as the wackos claim.


Basically the fundies are playing with women's lives and health for nothing.

[Beaverhausen]

23. Who is "we" ? You are male- you have no say in the matter

period.

[noamnety]

24. Why we have our positions

Notification laws:

"Parental notification or consent laws can expose a teenager from an abusive or otherwise dysfunctional family to emotional trauma and
physical danger, and many young women who avoid telling their parents about their plain to terminate an unwanted pregnancy come from such families.

Courts have found that teenagers who want to keep their pregnancies a secret almost always have sound reasons. And family counseling
experts have testified that forced communication frequently has disastrous results. Indeed, where abortion is concerned, privacy can be a life or death matter for teenagers.

... Sometimes, the news could place both a mother and daughter at risk of violence by an enraged father. Some young women fear the news will exacerbate a parent's psychiatric or physical illness, drug or alcohol abuse, or troubled relationships with other family members. Some teenagers are runaways and dare not risk returning to their troubled homes."
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/con16.htm

Partial Birth Abortion:
This is a bit of rhetoric, nothing more. Women have late term abortions either because their life is in danger, or because the baby has a severe and crippling or deadly defect. The right has demonized the procedure, convincing people that the procedure itself is somehow more cruel than other medical procedures that result in an abortion. It's not based in reality. No matter what procedure you use, the fetus will die. That's the blunt reality. So it becomes a decision on which procedure is best. The doctor can deflate the head so the baby can come out the birth canal without physical trauma to the woman (in some of these cases there is a specific defect that makes the head extra large, forgot the disease name), or the woman can have a c-section. The question is, why on earth would you put the woman through unnecessary major surgery when there is a less traumatic procedure they can use? It's medically irresponsible, and if the rhetoric weren't attached to it, we would consider unnecessary major surgery as malpractice.

So in summary - it's not only for the health of the mother, it can be because the baby has a terminal defect, in which case the doctor should have the freedom to decide what medical procedure is best for the mother.

[Name removed]

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