Tanks at LA Protest - NOT what you think

[Beaverhausen]

This is from the LA Indymedia site:


I wasn't there at the Tuesday night demonstration in Westwood, but I
did do some follow-up investigation this morning about the two armored
vehicles.

Turns out the West Los Angeles Veterans Administration was having a
Veterans Day parade and celebration this morning (Wednesday). I drove
over and walked in to the WLA VA to look around at 10:50am.

Lots of marching middle school ROTC "cadets" (including
11-to-14-year-old boys and girls from Mt. Vernon Middle School all in
US Army uniform, some shouldering parade "rifles") and a high school
band and antique cars filled with VAFW members. And two USMC Striker
armored vehicles complete with 6 or 7 Marines in fatigues and body
armor giving junior high ROTC kids and adults tours of the vehicles.

I talked to one Marine with one of the "Striker" vehicles. He told me
they had driven the vehicles up from Camp Pendleton the night before
(Tuesday) on the freeway. Getting off the 405 Freeway going north, they
would have passed Wilshire and Veteran where ANSWER had called a rally
to protest the attack on Fallujah in Iraq.

I asked him if he was "rolling around Westwood" Tuesday night. He said,
"Yeah, and we drove past that anti-war demonstration. We was lost.
We're not from L.A. We didn't know where this place (WLA VA) was. We
were trying to find it."

"Did you drive around the block twice?" I asked.

"Yeah, we did. We stopped to ask them (the protestors) directions, but
they weren't very nice."

There was more conversation, but that was the gist of it from the
Marine side concerning the armored vehicles. For what it's worth.

I've also been receiving emails from friends who were at Tuesday
evening's Westwood demostration. They report that the LAPD officers
said they had no idea why the two armored vehicles had appeared and
then disappeared.

[d_b]

1. too funny

[LosinIt]

2. This has Movie, written all over it

sounds like something from Stripes.

[htuttle]

3. If true, they had very, very unfortunate timing

I mean, what are the odds? (not sure I buy it, though).

In any case, as has been mentioned elsewhere, it wouldn't be the first time military-style hardware showed up at a protest (Miami FTAA, etc...).

[shance]

4. They were lost??

Whatever the case, the timing is very interesting and coincidental.

[Cleita]

8. Better get the Marines a Thomas Guide of

L. A. City streets. I couldn't live without mine when I lived there.

[AnIndependentTexan]

11. is this the special training they receive to hunt down caves?

[Cleita]

16. It's a book of street maps of Los Angeles County.

Even long time residents get lost if they venture out of their neighborhoods in to those not familiar to them. L. A. is so spread out because it evolved rather than was planned and the streets are often hard to find. You also need to know what exits to use on the freeway or you can overshoot your destination in a matter of minutes.

[DBoon]

17. Why not?

I live here and get lost all the time

[OrwellwasRight]

60. Impossible to miss the VA building on Wilshire

It is the first building you come to when getting off the 405, and you have to pass it, and turn away from it to get into Westwood Village. I ought to know. I lived in LA for 6 years (6 mos. in Westwood), and went to school in Westwood most of that time).

I find it not impossible, but definitely improbable that their directions did not include, "The VA is the first building on your right, on the corner of VETERAN and Wilshire."

I'm in DC now, so I'm expecting martial law fun in January.

[shance]

5. Give us a link.

n/t

[Beaverhausen]

7. Here is the link a friend sent to me

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118868

Ok- it's about halfway down the page.

[shance]

12. The letter you posted is not on the web page.

This is what I found.


<<The tanks circled the block twice, the second time parking themselves in the street and directly in front of the area where most of the protesters were gathered. Enraged, some of the people attempted to block the tanks, but police quickly cleared the street. The people continued to protest the presence of the tanks, but about ten minutes the tanks drove off. It is unclear as to why the tanks were deployed to this location. Uploaded here is video from the event.>>

Tanks don't just get lost on Wilshire Boulevard in Westwood.

When and where was the ROTC event?

[Beaverhausen]

13. scroll down and read the comments

and yes, there was a parade there today.

[Cleita]

18. I used to live near the armory on Rochester. If you don't get

off the freeway at the SM Blvd. exit you have a good chance of ending up on Wilshire.

Also, on edit. The VA and Federal Building's complex spreads on both sides of Wilshire.

[neomonkey]

6. They asked the protestors for directions

Ha, now that IS funny.

This sounds like a lot of "innocent" provocation and some showboating.

Here in L.A. we prefer to cruise in our convertibles, but whatever floats their boat.

[0rganism]

9. LOL! No wonder they left in a hurry

Thought they were going to a Veterans' Day parade, and they end up in the middle of an anti-war protest. That's movie material right there, if anyone's writing a script.

[Kurovski]

10. Well that's settled.

we'll only see tanks at protests around veteran's day.

Whew!

[underseasurveyor]

14. ha ha I suggested just that

in last nights 'Tanks at LA protest' thread.

[rockydem]

15. "but they weren't very nice"

If this is true it's sad. I'm opposed to the Iraq war, but I can imagine some of those protesters not being rational and screaming at them. Even if you asked them for directions they wouldn't listen.

[bigtree]

19. What's there to listen to? Their presence was a provocation.

Does anyone think they didn't know this? I imagine they phoneyed up an excuse to pull their prank on the peaceniks.

I can't imagine the ROTC being receptive to a lost contingent of peace protesters. It would surprise me.

[RegexReader]

41. That could have been nasty

if someone decided to jump on top of it. 'Accidents' happen.


RegexReader
$USA =~ s/Republican/Democrat/ig;

[radwriter0555]

20. I HATE to say it, but that makes SENSE... When getting off the 405

which is RIGHT there, just a step away, if you turn right, they would have been RIGHT in front of the federal building... and to drive around the block to look for the armory makes sense too, but they went right instead of left... if they had gone left, they would have been at the armory.

Egads... they can't follow directions?

I bet the spooked the protestors on purpose though.

[mountebank]

21. Bullshit. While they may have gotten off the 405....

en route to this show, I bet a stack of cash that they saw the protestors and decided to intimidate them. Then, later, when the CO heard of it and thought about the Posse Comitatus Act, he probably about shit himself and ordered his soldiers to make up some lie.

[Beaverhausen]

22. Or they may have thought, since the protesters want the war to end

and the soldiers to come home that they would be a little nicer to them. In the video the soldier is sitting right on top of the tank- he does nothing threatening to them.

Hell, maybe he wanted to join them.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

66. Let's Suppose You're Correct for a Moment

Then the whole "incident" is merely the misbehavior of a few enlisted folks, and certainly not a government scheme.

I live in LA. In fact, I live less than a mile from the area in question. The account rings true to me.

DTH

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Tanks for the memories. . .

:evilgrin:

[Pepperbelly]

25. although you should be ashmed, I see no contrition on your visage. nt

[DemBones DemBones]

65. True enough -- I should be ashamed but

I am not contrite. Sometimes bad jokes are all we've got.

:evilgrin:

[Mr_Spock]

24. Thanks, I asked in other thread if it was a parade - didn't make sense

to me. Seemed to arbitrary.

[American Tragedy]

26. I had a feeling it had something to do with Vets day

[Warren DeMontague]

27. "Do Any of You Dudes Know How To Get To Fallujah?"

n/t

[n2mark]

28. But if they got lost in LA

how will they get around in Iraq? Maybe this is why we keep getting blown up in Iraq.

[ParanoidPat]

29. What? No On Star with GPS? How much do these things cost?

:shrug: :wtf:

[Warren DeMontague]

30. So Let Me Get This Straight...

The Tanks Stopped and Asked the ANTI-WAR Protest for Directions.

If there is a God, she needs to lay off the psychedelics.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. I can believe there is some truth to this.

Watching the video, the tanks looked at though they were there incidentally. Their crews didn't appear to be on a crowd control mission; more like they'd just happened by.

But "asking for directions" sounds like a ruse to intimidate the crowd, particularly after circling twice. Shits 'n giggles, and all that.

"Hey Joe, let's put the fear o' God in those commie fuckers!"

[DoNotRefill]

67. hey, come on...they asked for directions...

it could have been worse, they could have just kept driving around for 24 hours, leading to "have you seen our LAVs?" PSAs on the tv...

http://www.ksdk.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=69597

[KansDem]

32. This sounds like a scene from out of Charles Chaplin's "Modern Times"

At one point in the movie, Chaplin is crossing a street when a red flag on a stick falls off of a truck with a long load. He picks it up and walks after the truck, intending to give it back to the driver. About this time a parade of Communists approaches from a side street and turns onto the street right behind the unsuspecting Chaplin. This makes it look like Chaplin is leading the parade, still shouting and waving the red flag. Naturally, the police arrest him for leading a Communist demonstration.

Very funny scene, and movie too!

[Tweed]

33. Modern Times is one of the best movies of all time

[jdots]

34. In an absurd way it makes sence

But what makes sence about a media that covers a pimple popping with 20 up load vans being so smart all of a sudden to not get in the fray ? You do see Army vehicles wandering aimlessly sometimes all over the country,this smart stuff," hey Bob did you bring the directions ? "

[NorthernSpy]

35. don't those things have a GPS? can they even GET lost?

Right now, knowing the few things that we know, I suppose that the single likeliest explanation for the incident is that they were moving the vehicles for some other reason, came across the protest, and decided either to intimidate the protesters, or to get a rise out of them, or something like that.

I certainly don't believe that they stopped at the protest to ask for directions! I mean, don't those things have GPS? And even without GPS, then wouldn't the crew ask the police for directions, instead of the protesters? C'mon...

[shance]

39. Exactly, whatever the case, there was a level of intimidation happening

Thats why they "stopped" for directions.

I mean I see tanks driving by all the time asking for directions, dont you?

[slowroll]

42. does everything that happens have to have a sinister motive?

I mean, do they look like they're trying to be intimidating in the video? Was the demonstration so vast that it would have attracted their attention right away? Several people familiar with the area have said that it's plausible they got lost there...I'm sure they realized the inanity of the situation, but nobody from the rally said anything about them attempting to intimidate the protestors, swinging the turret or revving the engine or anything. In fact one of the commentors on Indymedia who was there said the guys in the LAV were smiling and giving thumbs up...

[NorthernSpy]

46. the problem is that anyone can comment on Indymedia...

... including a marine who's been ordered to smooth over the damage from the stunt he just pulled.

I have a hard time believing the sudden arrival of two LAVs on the scene of a an anti-war demonstration outside a federal building was particularly well-received. Such a gesture is inherently intimidating, especially under the circumstances: no engine-revving or gun-pointing necessary.


I wonder what the freepers would have said if a similar incident had taken place during a perfectly legal rightwing/militia -type gathering during the Clinton years...

[shance]

57. Hmm...lets see, this is tough. Tanks roll up at an anti-war protest

sinister is an overreaching term used by you.

Sinister no. Intimidating? Would you enjoy having tanks rolling up to greet you?

[slowroll]

58. Let's see...

I think the most intimidating pic is the one with the guy in the hatch smiling and flashing a peace sign:

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943_comment.php

[shance]

59. Oh THANK YOU comrade!! Im so glad to see tanks in our LA streets!

That peace sign is sure to give me comfort, (although I saw only protestors giving the peace sign).

[slowroll]

62. Yeah, the people should have risen as one

and tipped that goddamn War Machine over on it's side! That'd teach those facist baby-killing pigfuckers to get lost in LA! :eyes:

[shance]

68. Fascist baby killing baby f***ers? Isnt that, umm quaint........

Is that what you think individuals who don't find comfort in Army tanks parading their streets are about? That we call everyone "facist" (sp hon) and baby killing whatever?

I would wager you are young and have a lot to learn about those that care about freedom of speech.

No, we just don't relish in army tanks intimidating protestors. That was their job Im sure. I dont blame them as much as I place blame on those that hired them to do it.

My dear, dont blame the ones who are being intimidated. They are protesting for your rights and for mine.

[slowroll]

36. some pics from the '02 parade

They had a National Guard Humvee and a SWAT truck.

http://www.gla.med.va.gov/VetsParade/default.htm

I figured it had to be this. They looked lost in the video, sitting there with their turn signal on.

One of the comments on the Indymedia thread said the guys in the trucks gave the protestors thumbs up and smiled at them until some fool woman started yelling at them.

Of course, a bunch of people aren't going to get the word on this and six months from now it'll be on "Snopes"- Did Facist Marine Tanks Attempt To Crush Protestors In Los Angeles?

[ShaneGR]

37. LOL, too funny.....

Wait, must put tinfoil back on, Bush sent them!

hehe

[stavka]

38. Good to know the "Striker" system is good for something! (NT)

If an RPG can cut through it, pretty useless as an initiative

[slowroll]

40. they were LAVs, not Strykers

And the Strykers are well beloved in Iraq. For all the crap talked about them it's apparent that they're a great system.

[stavka]

44. given your responses - and limited topical discussion -

I'm guessing you are a TOOL.

the "Strykers are well beloved in Iraq"

PLEASE>..your Party has written off this much of the Democratic party as not mattering....

[slowroll]

45. Sorry, just a hobbyist.

I saw this topic being discussed today and decided to jump in on it. I was as concerned as everyone else here when I first watched the vid. I've been here since just before the election but didn't sign up primarily because DU seems full of assholes who are very quick to act dickishly to every new person who comes aboard.

I don't support the war in Iraq and I wish to God we weren't using Strykers or any other military vehicles over there. But I do know what I know, and I know you can't make any argument about the Stryker (or even spell it correctly initially) because you don't know jack shit about it or its performance.

Thanks tho, it's been pleasant.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

43. I don't know if I buy that

I have seen too many tanks being hauled around on carriers to and from events. They usually unload them at the site. I guess trade-in is a real killer if your tank has high mileage. It could still be true that they were just lost. Don't listen to me I have become way to cynical these days.

[mrdmk]

47. You are right, this is horse shit

One does not drive a tank from Camp Pendleton (Oceanside) to Westwood (Los Angeles). That would be a drive of over 100 miles at 40(?) miles per hour (2.5 hours of total driving time) in rush hour traffic (and I mean bumper to bumper traffic from Oceanside to Westwood from anywhere 0 miles per hour to eighty miles per hour) the military does not drive track vehicles on our highways or streets. Even a bulldozer with tracks are not allowed on the city streets. The tracks will ruin the pavement. This does not mention the danger of driving a heavy military vehicle in crowded conditions (an accident waiting to happen). You need more than one source for this tripe.

[noamnety]

48. They are LAVs, not tanks

Wheeled vehicles, not tracked.

The cover story appears to be false - they are men, and thus they clearly weren't asking for directions.

Anyhow, gotta love the captions, especially in view of the new information.

"Tank Commander Negotiates Terms of His Surrender"

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php

[mrdmk]

49. Still, this is not the type of vehicle you drive on a

San Diego, Orange, Los Angeles County freeway. No way.

http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.nsf/0/b54eb957c0d3b17a852562830058111b?OpenDocument


edit: add link

[Liberal Mommy]

50. I talked to Frank from ANSWER

I was just as curious as everyone else so I called the protest group. Phone number was on their webpage and I'm nosey! Frank was there last night but he didn't really seem that concerned about them being there. He said the protesters "engaged" with the soldiers and the soldiers "engaged" back. Not quite sure what that means but that was his take on it. He also mentioned the National Guard was right up the road and said it could have been possible that someone called them to drive by.

[slowroll]

53. The only problem with the armory thing

is that it's an Army National Guard armory, and this type of vehicle is operated exclusively by the Marine Corps.

[mrdmk]

54. Doing a drive by and coming to an event is two different things

This vehicle would have been trucked to the area, not driven on the freeway. Even driving this LVA on Wilshire Blvd is stupid.

[slowroll]

55. It does seem odd....

We didn't have any wheeled vehicles of that size when I was in the Army, all tracks which of course had to be transported. But I can't really see a reason NOT to drive the LAV if you're only going a hundred miles or so. It's not any bigger than a big Ryder truck, range is over 400 miles on one gas tank and it can go 60 mph.

Seems to me from the explanations given, the descriptions from the witnesses, the look of the Marines in the pictures and the convoluted logic you'd have to employ to explain why these guys were used for intimidation, Occam's Razor dictates that they were lost.

[IkeWarnedUs]

51. Ok - tell you what . . .

If this is the only instance of tanks at an anti-war protest, I can accept that this was an accident.

If it happens again, I reserve the right to play taps for the All-American tradition of free speech.

Either way, DU is a great source for the whole story. DU reminds people how to gather differing views and do some research and get to the truth.

[slowroll]

52. This description

seems to support the lost Marines story. It doesn't sound like they would have stopped if it weren't for the light:

About 7:30pm, two tanks barreled past going East on Wilshire, rounded the corner onto Veteran going South, and disappeared.

About ten or fifteen minutes later, two tanks (apparently the same ones) appeared again going East on Wilshire and stopped for the light there. Demonstrators immediately stepped in front of the lead tank, blocking its path, and started to chant "U.S. Out!" at the soldiers, whose heads and torsos were clearly visible and who evidently exchanged a few words with protestors.

The soldiers seemed amused and not really unfriendly. Unfortunately, a few of our protestors chanted "murderers!" at the soldiers, although in general I think we were more sophisticated than that, realizing that many soldiers are victims themselves who were recruited through propaganda, guile, and economic incentives that the very poor can find it difficult to refuse.

I have no idea why they were there, and neither did anyone else that I asked.

Both tanks were surrounded on three sides by protestors for about three or four minutes until the LAPD showed up and placed themselves between tanks and protestors, and cleared the protestors who were blocking the front tank out of the road. I did not witness any brutality as this occurred, nor am I aware of any arrests having been made.

The tanks then proceeded to turn right onto Veteran and disappeared from view.

[Jack_DeLeon]

56. Case closed...

we got some real conspiracys to deal with.

[henslee]

61. awesome follow up on this story. I knew something was wrong.

[sr_pacifica]

63. I didn't buy the original interpretation either. This rings true. n/t

[elvisbear]

64. Which Way to the Front?